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Thread: Spirit ...natural or conditional?

  1. #1 Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Religious or inherited faith systems are a direct consequence of social and family conditioning. This particular "preference" or future choices on doctrine, end up being programmed and with out too much that can be done about it. However, isn't your own personal spirituality something that we all as human beings come face to face with one day? It is not the conditioning that brings us to that face to face time in life. It is internal. External forces can influence the scheduled meeting time though... ie: fox hole prayers and serious injury certainly create a need to schedule ASAP.

    The problem is that we seem to have gotten very far away from what it is to be human, in a natural , bare bones humanity sort of way. Don't you think if you step back and ask yourself to be honest with yourself about the topics of God etc, that you will find that the questions have always been there , like luggage?

    Religion, in my opinion is never a good thing, although it has been truly a blessing to many, in its raw purposed form , it only serves to control and hold one back from its natural human beingness. Keeping us feeling guilt and shame for having or desiring natural human processes. When we fail in life, work or family, it sucks bad enough, but when one fails GOd too, it is simply another self hate, a step away from where we need to be. There is great power and connectivity in simply being human.

    For me personally, spirituality has nothing to do with religion, no place in rules or in right or wrong behavior. Afterall it takes both positive and negative- good and bad to make the whole. Experience is what this particular dimension has to offer. So experience we should do, do do! .. The key to evolution as a species and most certainly as an individual, lies in the reflection of each experience. Through careful reflection, introspection , it then becomes possible to grasp what love or lessons that can be gained from having any of the experiences we desire. Without it , very little can be gained.

    I truly am in touch with the human condition, the good, the bad and the oh so ugly. You know ... if any person, oraganization, group or relationship, asks you or mandates that you be less human, to suppress or deny a human emotion or characteristic, they do not have your best interest at heart. If you believe in God, do you honestly think for one second, that he would want you to overcome the desires of your heart? Overcome is impossible, you simply carry it around with you forever... lighten the load and experience. If your desire affects another, then your choice will be if you need to do your experiencing within the mind only. hehe .. Remember that.

    The energy of the universe (God ) calls all of us, and if we have empowered our life as human beings in the basic sense of that and are true to self, you have to use cottton balls to drown it out. It is natural and it is not religion. All peoples have forever been drawn to spirit, it is who we are. Nothing else makes sense. Who we are is not confined to a body, or mind and if we are honest , we already know that.

    This is true in my humble opinion. What do you think?


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  3. #2  
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    I think you use interesting language, and touch on some interesting points, but that you toss around willy-nilly too many vague, ill-defined, and fuzzy terms for your contribution to have much utility.

    For example, what it means to be "human" for you could be entirely different from what it means to be "human" for the rest of us.

    Likewise, you speak of spirituality as if this is some crystal clear concept, when in fact it is yet another word that carries little meaning or use. Along similar lines, you speak of "dimensions" and "connectivity" and "energy of the universe." This is all a bunch of hand-wavey woo that doesn't really carry with it any explanatory power. It sounds a bit like the used car salesman who talks about how the car makes you feel and how much "awesomeness" it has, instead of discussing with you useful concepts like engine size, fuel mileage, and warranty coverage.

    Like I said... some interesting thoughts, but overall not very useful. IMO, you rely far too much on nearly meaningless words to convey your primary arguments, and for that reason it fails a bit... At least, with me.

    Regardless, thanks for sharing your thoughts, and thanks for being willing to hear/read my feedback. Take care.


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  4. #3 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    Spirit ...natural or conditional?
    Natural.

    I am very much the methodological naturalist in more ways than one. I am very much a believer in natural law not only in science but in spiritual/religious pursuits as well, because it is only when things are according to fixed principles subject to some kind of logic that they can be rational and it is only if thing are rational that they can ultimately said to be meaningful.

    But do not get me wrong here. I know very well the limitations of logic and the objective methodology of science -- and so I am certainly NOT saying that our perception of reality must be limited to these alone. Logic only takes us from premises to conclusions and so it is only a tool to use in the examination of the truth and not much of a source of truth itself. But it can point out when things are inconsistent and therefore meaningless -- as long as we are careful -- because sometimes things that seems inconsistent like the wave and particle natures of light, are not in fact contradictory at all but require us to re-examine premises that we have accepted uncritically. Sometimes things like this even challenge what we have accepted as the rules of logic itself. BUT I would reject any of this as being a reason to abandon logic and rationality altogether.


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    Religious or inherited faith systems are a direct consequence of social and family conditioning.
    ...
    Religion, in my opinion is never a good thing
    This is as foolish and idiotic as the anarchist's declaration that government is never a good thing. Religion and government both have a good and proper function -- it is a matter of finding what those are and confining them to these things.

    The hilarious irony is that the declaration that religion is bad is itself a common statement of religion. I know that both Christianity and Buddhism have strong anti-relgious elements in them (and so I would not be surprised if many others do also). In evangelical Christianity, "religion" is typicaly a bad word and is used to refer to something that should be avoided.


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    The problem is that we seem to have gotten very far away from what it is to be human, in a natural , bare bones humanity sort of way. Don't you think if you step back and ask yourself to be honest with yourself about the topics of God etc, that you will find that the questions have always been there , like luggage?
    ...
    There is great power and connectivity in simply being human.
    Personally I believe that our humanity itself is our first religion. I certainly think it is a rather subjective distinctions for I utterly reject a definition based on arbitrary categories in genetics. There has always been a very strong association of humanity with behavior, where we will say that some behaviors and people who do them are "inhuman". Everyone understands quite clearly what I mean when I say that I see more humanity in the chimpanzees, oranguatans and Bonobos that I see in many people.


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    For me personally, spirituality has nothing to do with religion, no place in rules or in right or wrong behavior.
    Now you are clearly equating "religion" with "legalistic relgion" and the latter has been rather routinely condemned in many religious traditions. The condemnation of legalism is rather the main theme of the ministry of Jesus and the writings of the apostle Paul. Yes it is a rather tragic fact that many Christian groups have turned this backwards and transformed Christianity into a much worse legalistic religion than those which Jesus and Paul spoke against, for it is complete insanity to establish a legalistic religion where it is not what you do that matters but only that you say you believe in the accepted dogmas.
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  5. #4 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Thank you inow, this was my first post here and my second got me reemed in writing style too, therefore I will put forth a more specific and to the point thread in my future writing. I am use to the reader understanding the terms I used please forgive the assumption. Thank you for your post as well.

    You said I brought interesting points but did not elaborate on which ones they were so I will address the next reader.


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    Religious or inherited faith systems are a direct consequence of social and family conditioning.
    ...
    Religion, in my opinion is never a good thing
    This is as foolish and idiotic as the anarchist's declaration that government is never a good thing. Religion and government both have a good and proper function -- it is a matter of finding what those are and confining them to these things.

    No it is not ridiculous, but perhaps I should have said why I said this. You are right to say that good things can usually be found in most anything. This of couse is, for the most part a true statement, since it takes both positive and negative to make any one whole. However, this does not create a good thing only a whole. Depending upon many factors and how you look at it. My point and the reason for such a blanket statement, is that "religion", all of them, are designed to cause the human to be controlled or held back away from the spiritual whole that they are. In other words, you are constantly striving to change your human natural essence, with condemnation when acting natural. Guilt and shame are natural emotions held by religious people. These are the core elements of religion, not all, and some are quite beautiful, yet some are so damaging to humanity, that it hinders greatly the entire process for the seeker of spiritual things. If any person, organization or company, ask or demands a human to supress or deny natural human characteristics, they do not have the best interest for you at heart. In contrast, typically spiritual people, meaning aware of the spiritual or simply connectivity with all, do not live in condemnation but are empowered to be human in all its glory, wonder and majesty ...NATURALLY!.


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    The problem is that we seem to have gotten very far away from what it is to be human, in a natural , bare bones humanity sort of way. Don't you think if you step back and ask yourself to be honest with yourself about the topics of God etc, that you will find that the questions have always been there , like luggage?
    ...
    There is great power and connectivity in simply being human.
    Personally I believe that our humanity itself is our first religion. I certainly think it is a rather subjective distinctions for I utterly reject a definition based on arbitrary categories in genetics. There has always been a very strong association of humanity with behavior, where we will say that some behaviors and people who do them are "inhuman". Everyone understands quite clearly what I mean when I say that I see more humanity in the chimpanzees, oranguatans and Bonobos that I see in many people.
    Religion in this context is a way of life, and I must do more than agree with your following statements. Yet did you agree that we as humans , Naturally, seek spiritual answers at some point in our lives?


    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    For me personally, spirituality has nothing to do with religion, no place in rules or in right or wrong behavior.
    Now you are clearly equating "religion" with "legalistic relgion" and the latter has been rather routinely condemned in many religious traditions. The condemnation of legalism is rather the main theme of the ministry of Jesus and the writings of the apostle Paul. Yes it is a rather tragic fact that many Christian groups have turned this backwards and transformed Christianity into a much worse legalistic religion than those which Jesus and Paul spoke against, for it is complete insanity to establish a legalistic religion where it is not what you do that matters but only that you say you believe in the accepted dogmas.
    No, and combined with the above statements and this , I am sure you will see that this is not at all, what I was doing, poorly I might add.. now cleared up and more precisely stated. No, in fact, the teaching in general that Jesus was said to have taught are some of those I indicated early on that are beautiful on the relgion topic. Quite honestly if more human beings treated others as they would like to be treated themselves, we all might be happy and alive, suffering far less everyday.

    I will use an analogy, to explain its usefullness in seeking *the most efficient* to any seeker of spiritual things... It is very much like unto a counterfit $20 bill. It looks like the real thing , feels like it too at first, that is its design, you may even get away with spending that sucker, but in the end you have cheated yourself or others, because it is not worth $20. Someone loses in the end because it exists. However it does indeed serve a purpose, just like religion. Most of us if we looked at people that are religious can find positive reinforcement for religion in those people. I say boldly, that when you really look, you see less than who could or would be, had they been empowered to simply embrace and accept the human natural being.

    I suppose in closing, my points when referencing religion vs spirit , the core argument lies at the core being of human in nature. It is my contention, that this is where we as a society have failed ourselves. If we went "back to the basics", (the title of the book I am writing by the way), we would be far better off as a people, functioning within acceptance, of all the parts, characterteristics and behavior that the natural, powerful, majestic human being IS ... NATURALLY!. Living without the horrendous affects of guilt and shame, self hatred and being more connected with each other and human understanding as a result. These few conditions, removed or greatly reduced from the human psyche, would so transform us, that I doubt our current condition would be recognizable to us. Therefore, I will say again, more clearly this time, that although religion would appear to have good qualities or even serve some of us well, those religions we have, have NEVER been the best thing for seeking our natural spiritual being.

    We can not be all that we naturally are, if we don't know and accept, intimately, our human nature. No other places do you see this example more than within religion. This simply can not be a good trade off or sacrifice. The question now is... why or who, and for what reason would any organization go to so much trouble keeping a people away from accepting and knowing their natural human charcteristics? Or perhaps it was not this reason that prompted them. Perhaps it was control and greed that led the creation of religion. Or perhaps initially, good intensions existed and corrupt men or beings changed it like cancer. All I do know is if one desires to know himself spiritually, or seek things of that nature, religion, is not the best place to look. Unless of course one has been invented that empowers who we are naturally. Hopefully that new religion will also have a big department for helping individuals remove the multiple layers of guilt and shame for being less than they have been conditioned that they should be by society and religion from the past.

    I don't know if I should have elaborated on examples of where we have not accepted our natural being as a society. If this argument needs to be disected , I for one am all for it. It could get rather ugly because clearly any topic there begins with human sexuality, at it most funamental , primal core. Let me know, I will roll up me sleeves and get all up in it, if we are willing to handle it. Lets do it only if it is really needed. Something tells me for the most part, it won't be, because you likely already know the statements are well founded. I am willing though. I will bring my head gear and padding!! . lol
    Experience All you desire, the Key to evolution lies in the reflection upon those experiences. Remember some experiences are best played out in the mind only.
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  6. #5 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by HalexandriasAngel
    Religious or inherited faith systems are a direct consequence of social and family conditioning. This particular "preference" or future choices on doctrine, end up being programmed and with out too much that can be done about it. However, isn't your own personal spirituality something that we all as human beings come face to face with one day? It is not the conditioning that brings us to that face to face time in life. It is internal. External forces can influence the scheduled meeting time though... ie: fox hole prayers and serious injury certainly create a need to schedule ASAP.

    The problem is that we seem to have gotten very far away from what it is to be human, in a natural , bare bones humanity sort of way. Don't you think if you step back and ask yourself to be honest with yourself about the topics of God etc, that you will find that the questions have always been there , like luggage?

    Religion, in my opinion is never a good thing, ?
    Hogwash. But on to the O P.

    You cannot disassociate spirituality and religion. Religion is the expression of what we know of the spiritual.

    Anyone whose spirituality has lead them to God are duty bound to try to teach what he or she has learned and if successful, behold, a new religion.

    It is nice when the spiritual person is not of the same old Bible thumping kind who believes that he has found God in a 3000 year old book. That one is likely a fool.

    If God was that easy to find then we would all know Him.

    As far as I know, I am the only one here who has admitted an apotheosis and any believer that does not experience this will know, or should know, that his search should continue.
    Without apotheosis, believers lie when they say that God exists. They can get away with saying that they believe or have faith in a God but if they say that God definitely exists without some kind of personal revelation then they are lying.

    God is real but He is not the Bible God and has yet to be named.

    Regards
    DL
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  7. #6 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    God is real...
    Only as an ill-defined three letter word... an ambiguous and loose concept about which people speak and debate. Other than that? Nope, not so much... Or, in your own words, "hogwash."
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  8. #7 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    God is real...
    Only as an ill-defined three letter word... an ambiguous and loose concept about which people speak and debate. Other than that? Nope, not so much... Or, in your own words, "hogwash."
    I agree with your definition of what the word God should mean.

    God should always be sought as an ideal and if found, raise the bar again.

    I think that that is how religion started but then they went and screwed things up by giving God all kinds of imaginary attributes like creator and miracle worker.

    This has nothing to do with my experience because what I experience is what they first had before adding all the impossible wish list attributes .

    As I said, I cannot provit it either and will not bother arguing the point.

    Regards
    DL
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  9. #8 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    You cannot disassociate spirituality and religion. Religion is the expression of what we know of the spiritual.
    I don't know about that. Religion is one expression of spirituality. Many scientist, even those who are professed atheist, find extreme awe as they marvel at the elegance of their own fields and shared connectivity with other fields. (I know I do--a summer thunderstorm or the crashing surf of a winter gale can elicit deep emotions that transcend my considerable knowledge of either). It's the kind of spirituality that Ursula Goodenough describes.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    This isn't about science. Moved to philosophy.
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  11. #10 Re: Spirit ...natural or conditional? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    You cannot disassociate spirituality and religion. Religion is the expression of what we know of the spiritual.
    I don't know about that. Religion is one expression of spirituality. Many scientist, even those who are professed atheist, find extreme awe as they marvel at the elegance of their own fields and shared connectivity with other fields. (I know I do--a summer thunderstorm or the crashing surf of a winter gale can elicit deep emotions that transcend my considerable knowledge of either). It's the kind of spirituality that Ursula Goodenough describes.
    I to am awed by nature.
    That is a separate thing from my spirituality.
    Spirituality deals with then unseen, not the seen.

    Regards
    DL
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  12. #11  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    This isn't about science. Moved to philosophy.
    Heh!

    In Emma Lazarus' immortal words: 'Send me your...'

    In mod(ish) mode: Can we keep it clean please people? This is now in the philo sub-forum and we tend to be able to address ideas without judgmental criticism. 'Rubbish', 'nonsense', 'hogwash' etc are terms best reserved for the end of an argument, rather than the beginning - it tends to put backs up a bit less, and allows for a bit more by way of constructive discussion.

    Surely it's more interesting that way?
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