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Thread: Test yourself for Free Will.

  1. #1 Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Test yourself for Free Will.

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.

    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.

    If you agree with the reasoning and think the process here sound, then I invite you to give up your free will to mine, by simply replying to this thread with a brief response.

    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.

    Your appropriate response will prove that you have a free will.

    Is this a definitive test for free will and scientifically sound?

    Regards
    DL


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  3. #2  
    Forum Freshman blood_pardon's Avatar
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    Y


    Do you know the name of your grandfather? What about your great grandfather? Great great grandfather? In four generations no one will remember you either.
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  4. #3 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Test yourself for Free Will.

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.

    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.

    If you agree with the reasoning and think the process here sound, then I invite you to give up your free will to mine, by simply replying to this thread with a brief response.

    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.

    Your appropriate response will prove that you have a free will.

    Is this a definitive test for free will and scientifically sound?

    Regards
    DL
    The problem is that your response "Y" or whatever, may be determined by the environment you were brought up in and/or genetics, in which case you press "Y" even though you had no choice but to do so.
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  6. #5 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    Unfortunately, everything you've said is simply point-of-view. Why you should need a test for free will I do not know, particularly since, from your statement above, you have ignored all the complexities of the compatibilist models I outlined in your earlier thread.

    The only function of free will in a modern society is with regard to moral issues - to determine whether or not somebody can be held morally responsible for an act. It therefore is irrelevant whether or not there is an 'absolute' free will underlying that act. A simple rule-of-thumb test for free will would simply be: "The more free will you claim, the more responsibility you will have to take. The less responsibility you wish to have, the less freedom of choice you will be given (your actions will be circumscribed). You decide."
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  7. #6 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
    Forum Ph.D. Leszek Luchowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    The problem is that your response "Y" or whatever, may be determined by the environment you were brought up in and/or genetics, in which case you press "Y" even though you had no choice but to do so.
    Precisely. On the other hand, if you replied (in any way), or if you chose not to, through your free will, then free will surely exists.

    Greatests's test reminds me of checking the sex of a swan by throwing a piece of bread to the bird. If he eats it, it's a male. And if she eats it, it's a female.
    Leszek. Pronounced [LEH-sheck]. The wondering Slav.
    History teaches us that we don't learn from history.
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    There is a scientific determination of free will at proprofs.com. The lower the score, the greater your free will. I scored 'zero' which means I am certified as having 'free will'. Try it for yourself. [/b]
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  9. #8 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.
    The problem is that you are not doing it for "no other reason". Most likely you are doing it because you want to convince yourself that you have free will.
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  10. #9 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.
    You won't trick me into having free will you hypnotic python.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by blood_pardon
    Y
    Good man.

    Regards
    DL
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  13. #12 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Test yourself for Free Will.

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.

    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.

    If you agree with the reasoning and think the process here sound, then I invite you to give up your free will to mine, by simply replying to this thread with a brief response.

    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.

    Your appropriate response will prove that you have a free will.

    Is this a definitive test for free will and scientifically sound?

    Regards
    DL
    The problem is that your response "Y" or whatever, may be determined by the environment you were brought up in and/or genetics, in which case you press "Y" even though you had no choice but to do so.
    Ok. genetics chooses your response.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    N.
    A good example of exercising free choice.

    Regards
    DL
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  15. #14 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    Unfortunately, everything you've said is simply point-of-view. Why you should need a test for free will I do not know, particularly since, from your statement above, you have ignored all the complexities of the compatibilist models I outlined in your earlier thread.

    The only function of free will in a modern society is with regard to moral issues - to determine whether or not somebody can be held morally responsible for an act. It therefore is irrelevant whether or not there is an 'absolute' free will underlying that act. A simple rule-of-thumb test for free will would simply be: "The more free will you claim, the more responsibility you will have to take. The less responsibility you wish to have, the less freedom of choice you will be given ."
    By whom?

    Regards
    DL
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  16. #15 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.
    The problem is that you are not doing it for "no other reason". Most likely you are doing it because you want to convince yourself that you have free will.
    Do you need convincing?

    Regards
    DL
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  17. #16  
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    Can we chose who we have become?

    No.

    Free will dont exist since we cant chose who we are.

    The person i am dont believe in free will, if i grew up as someone else - that might have changed the viewpoint to "i believe in free will" but that still wouldnt affect the truth to as if we have free will or not.

    If science can one day prove beyond doubt we have free will ill change my viewpoint to sceptical.
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  18. #17 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    Unfortunately, everything you've said is simply point-of-view. Why you should need a test for free will I do not know, particularly since, from your statement above, you have ignored all the complexities of the compatibilist models I outlined in your earlier thread.

    The only function of free will in a modern society is with regard to moral issues - to determine whether or not somebody can be held morally responsible for an act. It therefore is irrelevant whether or not there is an 'absolute' free will underlying that act. A simple rule-of-thumb test for free will would simply be: "The more free will you claim, the more responsibility you will have to take. The less responsibility you wish to have, the less freedom of choice you will be given ."
    By whom?

    Regards
    DL
    As it's a social issue (I pointed that out), the whom is society, or whatever formal structures/frameworks are utilised in that society (the judiciary, for instance).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    Can we chose who we have become?

    No.

    Free will dont exist since we cant chose who we are.

    The person i am dont believe in free will, if i grew up as someone else - that might have changed the viewpoint to "i believe in free will" but that still wouldnt affect the truth to as if we have free will or not.

    If science can one day prove beyond doubt we have free will ill change my viewpoint to sceptical.
    If it is not your free will that you are expressing then who's will is it?

    Who do you give your responsibility to if not yourself?

    Who do we praise or blame for the thoughts you express?

    Regards
    DL
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  20. #19 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    Unfortunately, everything you've said is simply point-of-view. Why you should need a test for free will I do not know, particularly since, from your statement above, you have ignored all the complexities of the compatibilist models I outlined in your earlier thread.

    The only function of free will in a modern society is with regard to moral issues - to determine whether or not somebody can be held morally responsible for an act. It therefore is irrelevant whether or not there is an 'absolute' free will underlying that act. A simple rule-of-thumb test for free will would simply be: "The more free will you claim, the more responsibility you will have to take. The less responsibility you wish to have, the less freedom of choice you will be given ."
    By whom?

    Regards
    DL
    As it's a social issue (I pointed that out), the whom is society, or whatever formal structures/frameworks are utilised in that society (the judiciary, for instance).
    So if I want less responsibility for moral issues, the judiciary will give it to me.

    How does that work.

    If I want 0 responsibilities.
    Will I be able to get my wish from society?

    Regards
    DL
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  21. #20 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    Unfortunately, everything you've said is simply point-of-view. Why you should need a test for free will I do not know, particularly since, from your statement above, you have ignored all the complexities of the compatibilist models I outlined in your earlier thread.

    The only function of free will in a modern society is with regard to moral issues - to determine whether or not somebody can be held morally responsible for an act. It therefore is irrelevant whether or not there is an 'absolute' free will underlying that act. A simple rule-of-thumb test for free will would simply be: "The more free will you claim, the more responsibility you will have to take. The less responsibility you wish to have, the less freedom of choice you will be given ."
    By whom?

    Regards
    DL
    As it's a social issue (I pointed that out), the whom is society, or whatever formal structures/frameworks are utilised in that society (the judiciary, for instance).
    So if I want less responsibility for moral issues, the judiciary will give it to me.

    How does that work.

    If I want 0 responsibilities.
    Will I be able to get my wish from society?

    Regards
    DL
    In most modern societies, that would be considered an abrogation of responsibility and you would be given a corresponding reduction in rights (for instance, possible confined to an institution for the criminally insane). So you would be likely to get your wish, but perhaps not at a price you'd enjoy paying...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    The problem is that your response "Y" or whatever, may be determined by the environment you were brought up in and/or genetics, in which case you press "Y" even though you had no choice but to do so.
    This seems very rational. However the definition of Free Will has to be explored.

    In my view, your actions are based upon your genetics and your environment, and all of our choices are based on the combination of that, which I would say is our personality. Our actions are almost always based on our personality, even when we do something "out of character" we are still doing it in character because we are doing something to normal generally based upon recent events.

    Therefore, your actions aren't really choices as you would always do that under those exact circumstances. However are actions are based on who we are.

    Some would view that because we don't really have choices we don't really have free will, some would view that because our actions are based on who we are, it is "our will" and thus in it being "ours" we think freely.

    This seems to make a great deal of sense to me, and I would be one of the people that believes we do, kind of have free will as what we do is because of who we are.
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    Free will is the desire and execution of saying no.

    Have you ever mothered or fathered a child.

    Need I say more?

    Regards
    DL
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    You know I will.


    We are free to manipulate matter that we cannot see.

    Your finger for instance going to Y.

    That is free will +.

    That is the ultimate proof of freedom.

    You have the free choice of being manipulated or not.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You know I will.


    We are free to manipulate matter that we cannot see.

    Your finger for instance going to Y.

    That is free will +.

    That is the ultimate proof of freedom.

    You have the free choice of being manipulated or not.

    Regards
    DL
    But you don't really, everything you do is based around the combination of genetics and environment, the combination of which forms your personality, based upon your personality, who you are would decide if you want to Type Y or not, you may the type of person that would like to believe they have free will but not the brightest and so type Y, you may be the time of person who likes to beat the system and so type R, you may be the type of person that would think about it and press R to not "be manipulated" but your actions are based upon who you are, and you are who you are because of your genetics and your environment. Therefore your "choice" isn't really a choice as you as a person under those exact circumstances would always do the same thing.

    If you would like to come back against that with a Scientific argument against that then fine, more non scientific arguments I will probably ignore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargar
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You know I will.


    We are free to manipulate matter that we cannot see.

    Your finger for instance going to Y.

    That is free will +.

    That is the ultimate proof of freedom.

    You have the free choice of being manipulated or not.

    Regards
    DL
    But you don't really, everything you do is based around the combination of genetics and environment, the combination of which forms your personality, based upon your personality, who you are would decide if you want to Type Y or not, you may the type of person that would like to believe they have free will but not the brightest and so type Y, you may be the time of person who likes to beat the system and so type R, you may be the type of person that would think about it and press R to not "be manipulated" but your actions are based upon who you are, and you are who you are because of your genetics and your environment. Therefore your "choice" isn't really a choice as you as a person under those exact circumstances would always do the same thing.

    If you would like to come back against that with a Scientific argument against that then fine, more non scientific arguments I will probably ignore.
    Probably!

    That denotes choice.

    Hmm.

    Regards
    DL
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gargar
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You know I will.


    We are free to manipulate matter that we cannot see.

    Your finger for instance going to Y.

    That is free will +.

    That is the ultimate proof of freedom.

    You have the free choice of being manipulated or not.

    Regards
    DL
    But you don't really, everything you do is based around the combination of genetics and environment, the combination of which forms your personality, based upon your personality, who you are would decide if you want to Type Y or not, you may the type of person that would like to believe they have free will but not the brightest and so type Y, you may be the time of person who likes to beat the system and so type R, you may be the type of person that would think about it and press R to not "be manipulated" but your actions are based upon who you are, and you are who you are because of your genetics and your environment. Therefore your "choice" isn't really a choice as you as a person under those exact circumstances would always do the same thing.

    If you would like to come back against that with a Scientific argument against that then fine, more non scientific arguments I will probably ignore.
    Probably!

    That denotes choice.

    Hmm.

    Regards
    DL
    It denotes me being unsure how the chemicals in my brain will react when seeing your response.
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  28. #27 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Test yourself for Free Will.

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    There have been many different experiments (tests), and empirical observations on free will all indicating that free will is non-existent and an illusory perception in your brain:

    - Libet's experiment
    - Transcranial Magnetic Stimuli Experiment
    - Neural-correlate explanation
    - Drugs and chemical reactions altering consciousness

    The only way you can believe free will is debatable is if you believe in superhuman power, modern science is entirely wrong, or that you can determine what's true or false by feelings

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.

    If you agree with the reasoning and think the process here sound, then I invite you to give up your free will to mine, by simply replying to this thread with a brief response.

    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.

    Your appropriate response will prove that you have a free will.

    Is this a definitive test for free will and scientifically sound?

    Regards
    DL
    This reasoning makes zero sense. Free will has to do with being able to control your decisions.

    Your argument is just circular reasoning

    "To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to"

    You're basically saying "Being able to give up free will indicates that free will exists since I already assumed free will exists and I have free will to give up"

    Your argument is circular, how would you know that you already have free will to give up? You're just re-stating the premise that free will exists, it's just circular reasoning, otherwise you would never assume you have free will to give up

    It's just the same type of circular reasoning as someone saying "I know free will exists because I know I can choose to do [some action]". The only way you can know that you can choose is if you already assume free will exists, it's just the same as saying "free will exists because I already assume I have free will"

    If you make the least assumptions, following Ockham's razor, the only conclusion is that an action occurred (giving up your will to someone else), and you had the feeling that you controlled your decision.

    Giving an example of an action where you have the feeling that you have free will is not evidence that free will exists at all. We already know that lots of feelings and perceptions are illusory and inaccurate.

    It's not scientifically sound and is just circular reasoning.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gargar
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gargar
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You know I will.


    We are free to manipulate matter that we cannot see.

    Your finger for instance going to Y.

    That is free will +.

    That is the ultimate proof of freedom.

    You have the free choice of being manipulated or not.

    Regards
    DL
    But you don't really, everything you do is based around the combination of genetics and environment, the combination of which forms your personality, based upon your personality, who you are would decide if you want to Type Y or not, you may the type of person that would like to believe they have free will but not the brightest and so type Y, you may be the time of person who likes to beat the system and so type R, you may be the type of person that would think about it and press R to not "be manipulated" but your actions are based upon who you are, and you are who you are because of your genetics and your environment. Therefore your "choice" isn't really a choice as you as a person under those exact circumstances would always do the same thing.

    If you would like to come back against that with a Scientific argument against that then fine, more non scientific arguments I will probably ignore.
    Probably!

    That denotes choice.

    Hmm.

    Regards
    DL
    It denotes me being unsure how the chemicals in my brain will react when seeing your response.
    Wow. I have power and the freedom to manipulate your will.
    That shows that you have one for me to sway.

    Basically you have admitted that you, like all of us can say no to something. That is free will.

    Do you not see all two year olds expressing their free will? they say no all the time.

    Regards
    DL
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  30. #29 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by VitalOne
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Test yourself for Free Will.

    The debate as to our free will is more widespread than most realize. It is also stalled without a definitive answer, because no one has come out with a definitive test.

    From my point of view free will cannot be given, it is something that must be taken.
    There have been many different experiments (tests), and empirical observations on free will all indicating that free will is non-existent and an illusory perception in your brain:

    - Libet's experiment
    - Transcranial Magnetic Stimuli Experiment
    - Neural-correlate explanation
    - Drugs and chemical reactions altering consciousness

    The only way you can believe free will is debatable is if you believe in superhuman power, modern science is entirely wrong, or that you can determine what's true or false by feelings

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.

    If you agree with the reasoning and think the process here sound, then I invite you to give up your free will to mine, by simply replying to this thread with a brief response.

    You will begin your response with the letter Y, if you recognize that you have free will.

    Your appropriate response will prove that you have a free will.

    Is this a definitive test for free will and scientifically sound?

    Regards
    DL
    This reasoning makes zero sense. Free will has to do with being able to control your decisions.

    Your argument is just circular reasoning

    "To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to"

    You're basically saying "Being able to give up free will indicates that free will exists since I already assumed free will exists and I have free will to give up"

    Your argument is circular, how would you know that you already have free will to give up? You're just re-stating the premise that free will exists, it's just circular reasoning, otherwise you would never assume you have free will to give up

    It's just the same type of circular reasoning as someone saying "I know free will exists because I know I can choose to do [some action]". The only way you can know that you can choose is if you already assume free will exists, it's just the same as saying "free will exists because I already assume I have free will"

    If you make the least assumptions, following Ockham's razor, the only conclusion is that an action occurred (giving up your will to someone else), and you had the feeling that you controlled your decision.

    Giving an example of an action where you have the feeling that you have free will is not evidence that free will exists at all. We already know that lots of feelings and perceptions are illusory and inaccurate.

    It's not scientifically sound and is just circular reasoning.
    Was not beginning with a Y a free choice for you or did you not have a choice to ignore the request?

    Is deciding to not follow a request free will on your part?

    Regards
    DL
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  31. #30 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Was not beginning with a Y a free choice for you or did you not have a choice to ignore the request?
    Giving an example of an action is not an indication that free will exists. So whatever decision occurred, whether I responded with a Y or N is not evidence of free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Is deciding to not follow a request free will on your part?

    Regards
    DL
    No, like I said, giving an example of action (regardless of what the action is) is not evidence of free will. "deciding not to follow a request" is just an example of an action, it doesn't indicate anything about free will.

    You're again using circular reasoning, concluding free will exists since you already assumed free will exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Wow. I have power and the freedom to manipulate your will.
    That shows that you have one for me to sway.

    Basically you have admitted that you, like all of us can say no to something. That is free will.

    Do you not see all two year olds expressing their free will? they say no all the time.

    Regards
    DL
    Your argument is basically "Free will exists because when I say 'no' I already assume free will exists"

    It's just circular reasoning. How would you know that "you" controlled the decision when you said yes or no or took any action?

    Giving examples of actions and decisions is not evidence of free will anymore than a computer making decisions or TV or any electrical device making decisions is evidence that they have free will.

    In order to show that free will exists you would have to show that you can actually control your decisions, meaning you can control the electrical reactions in your brain, meaning you have superhuman power, meaning consciousness is not simply electrochemical reactions in the brain, meaning the observer is beyond the laws that electrochemical reactions follow.

    In conclusion you've proven nothing and just repeatedly used circular reasoning. All you've done is repeatedly say "free will exists" without providing any evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VitalOne
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Wow. I have power and the freedom to manipulate your will.
    That shows that you have one for me to sway.

    Basically you have admitted that you, like all of us can say no to something. That is free will.

    Do you not see all two year olds expressing their free will? they say no all the time.

    Regards
    DL
    Your argument is basically "Free will exists because when I say 'no' I already assume free will exists"

    It's just circular reasoning. How would you know that "you" controlled the decision when you said yes or no or took any action?

    Giving examples of actions and decisions is not evidence of free will anymore than a computer making decisions or TV or any electrical device making decisions is evidence that they have free will.

    In order to show that free will exists you would have to show that you can actually control your decisions, meaning you can control the electrical reactions in your brain, meaning you have superhuman power, meaning consciousness is not simply electrochemical reactions in the brain, meaning the observer is beyond the laws that electrochemical reactions follow.

    In conclusion you've proven nothing and just repeatedly used circular reasoning. All you've done is repeatedly say "free will exists" without providing any evidence.
    You are choosing not to comply. Plain and simple.

    The evidence is in your response.

    Too bad you do not see your choice as a choice.

    Regards
    DL
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You are choosing not to comply. Plain and simple.

    The evidence is in your response.

    Too bad you do not see your choice as a choice.
    DL, you are misunderstanding the argument, he is not saying you are not making choices, he's saying are you choosing your choice? As in, let's say you pick an apple over an orange to eat, how do you know that the reason you picked the apple is not a mix of your genetic make-up and your previous experiences with apples and oranges.

    I'll put it like this:

    Let's say there are a thousand universes, exactly the same in every way shape and form, and in all of them, there you are and you are about to choose whether to have an apple or an orange. The question is, if, in all of the univers, you choose to have an apple, is it a choice? If that's the choice you are (and were going to) always make, it's not free will is it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques.X
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You are choosing not to comply. Plain and simple.

    The evidence is in your response.

    Too bad you do not see your choice as a choice.
    DL, you are misunderstanding the argument, he is not saying you are not making choices, he's saying are you choosing your choice? As in, let's say you pick an apple over an orange to eat, how do you know that the reason you picked the apple is not a mix of your genetic make-up and your previous experiences with apples and oranges.

    I'll put it like this:

    Let's say there are a thousand universes, exactly the same in every way shape and form, and in all of them, there you are and you are about to choose whether to have an apple or an orange. The question is, if, in all of the univers, you choose to have an apple, is it a choice? If that's the choice you are (and were going to) always make, it's not free will is it?
    In this universe, the option was given as Y instead of any other letter.

    To choose it was the option. To choose otherwise is to show freedom of choice to oppose.
    To choose Y was to choose to comply.

    If you and he cannot see the choice given and the choice taken as choice well------

    To choose to reply here and now, or not, is a choice.

    Choose.

    Regards
    DL
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    In this universe, the option was given as Y instead of any other letter.

    To choose it was the option. To choose otherwise is to show freedom of choice to oppose.
    To choose Y was to choose to comply.

    If you and he cannot see the choice given and the choice taken as choice well------

    To choose to reply here and now, or not, is a choice.

    Choose.
    As clever and pithy as you think you are, please realize that you are not actually making an argument other than, 'there is a choice, therefore there is a choice.' You need to back that claim up.

    You see a choice, for instance the choice of 'Y', now how do you know that there was a choice there? For instance, if that was the only logical and rational choice, is it a choice? Because to do otherwise would just be arbitrary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacques.X
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    In this universe, the option was given as Y instead of any other letter.

    To choose it was the option. To choose otherwise is to show freedom of choice to oppose.
    To choose Y was to choose to comply.

    If you and he cannot see the choice given and the choice taken as choice well------

    To choose to reply here and now, or not, is a choice.

    Choose.
    As clever and pithy as you think you are, please realize that you are not actually making an argument other than, 'there is a choice, therefore there is a choice.' You need to back that claim up.

    You see a choice, for instance the choice of 'Y', now how do you know that there was a choice there? For instance, if that was the only logical and rational choice, is it a choice? Because to do otherwise would just be arbitrary.
    To pick Y just because I asked you too takes away any reason for logic or rational thinking.

    It is simply to show that you can choose Y for no other reason other than to prove you can.

    If you cannot then that is your problem. To argue that there is not free choice involved is pithy stupid.

    Regards
    DL
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  38. #37 Re: Test yourself for Free Will. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    If someone has free will then they are in a position to give it up.
    If a someone does not have free will, they cannot.

    To prove that you have free will, all you would need do is give it up to someone else’s will for no other reason other than you chose to.
    I hereby transfer to you my ownership of the entire Netherlands.

    (silence as everybody gasps upon realizing the full meaning of what I have done)

    There, I have just proven that I do own them. Ooops, I mean, that I did own them. Anyway. Whatever.
    Leszek. Pronounced [LEH-sheck]. The wondering Slav.
    History teaches us that we don't learn from history.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You are choosing not to comply. Plain and simple.

    The evidence is in your response.

    Too bad you do not see your choice as a choice.

    Regards
    DL
    Well again you've continued with circular reasoning, your argument this entire time has just been "I say free will exists because when someone responds I already assume they have free will and are choosing"

    How do you know that I or anyone else "chose" these decisions? You don't, you just conclude free will exists by already assuming free will exists, that's why it's circular reasoning.

    Too bad you don't see the difference between having evidence to support an assertion versus repeatedly saying something is true because you already assume it's true.

    So free will exists because when someone responds you already assume they chose to respond and had free will to control that decision?

    There are REAL arguments for free will, but this is not one of them, this is just a classical example of circular reasoning
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  40. #39  
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    When a 1 domino piece falls against another it falls. Simple.

    When 1000000000000000 domino pieces falls against eachother the chain of events is long but you can still trace the source.

    Now consider a 30 year old man, and all the choises his made in his life. You could compare this to millions of endlessly long chains of domino pieces in a maze that is impossible to backtrack alltogethers, but they are still each bound to the simple rule "Cause and effect"

    Its pretty much the reason you cant prove / disprove the free will subject proparly because there are so endlessly many factors into play to make a real scientific measurement.

    With that said consider life backwards. And ask yourself this, from the source of your existance:

    Did you choose your parents? Did you choose your genes? Did you choose your culture? Did you choose where you were born? You are simply a product of cause and effect.

    Many "free will believers" dont care about what is true just what they want to be true, and thus they believe in free will because they know it cant be disproved and this gives them an illusion of power. They simply cant cope with the possibility that they are entirely powerless. They say very often "I have a choise therefore i have free will" But having the possibility to imagine 1000 possible outcomes from a choise doesent change the actual choise youll make. The parallell universe example is good here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VitalOne
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You are choosing not to comply. Plain and simple.

    The evidence is in your response.

    Too bad you do not see your choice as a choice.

    Regards
    DL
    Well again you've continued with circular reasoning, your argument this entire time has just been "I say free will exists because when someone responds I already assume they have free will and are choosing"

    How do you know that I or anyone else "chose" these decisions?
    Fill in the blank.
    If not you then who?

    You don't, you just conclude free will exists by already assuming free will exists, that's why it's circular reasoning.
    Tell that to any child, especially in the terrible two's, when they say no by their choice.
    Have you ever said no?

    Too bad you don't see the difference between having evidence to support an assertion versus repeatedly saying something is true because you already assume it's true.
    Do you have evidence of not having free will?

    So free will exists because when someone responds you already assume they chose to respond and had free will to control that decision?
    Sure. Who or what else controlled their fingers to decide to respond.

    Did I somehow control other forces that then influenced you or them?

    There are REAL arguments for free will, but this is not one of them, this is just a classical example of circular reasoning
    Ok.

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    DL
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    When a 1 domino piece falls against another it falls. Simple.

    When 1000000000000000 domino pieces falls against eachother the chain of events is long but you can still trace the source.

    Now consider a 30 year old man, and all the choises his made in his life. You could compare this to millions of endlessly long chains of domino pieces in a maze that is impossible to backtrack alltogethers, but they are still each bound to the simple rule "Cause and effect"

    Its pretty much the reason you cant prove / disprove the free will subject proparly because there are so endlessly many factors into play to make a real scientific measurement.

    With that said consider life backwards. And ask yourself this, from the source of your existance:

    Did you choose your parents? Did you choose your genes? Did you choose your culture? Did you choose where you were born? .
    Did you choose to not answer with a Y?

    Your answer to this will answer all of your questions.

    Regards
    DL
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    Did you choose to not answer with a Y?

    Your answer to this will answer all of your questions.

    Regards
    DL
    Yes, ill chose to not answer with an "Y"

    Considering i understood your intention right.

    Again i think 90% of choises are determined and by surrendering yourself to the fact that you cant change that will ironically grant you some small power in manipulating your own choises.
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    Did you choose to not answer with a Y?

    Your answer to this will answer all of your questions.

    Regards
    DL
    Yes, ill chose to not answer with an "Y"

    Considering i understood your intention right.

    Again i think 90% of choises are determined and by surrendering yourself to the fact that you cant change that will ironically grant you some small power in manipulating your own choises.
    We agree.

    I do not know the number 90 % may be high.

    Keep up the thinking. Nice to see one who can reason now and then.

    Regards
    DL
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Keep up the thinking. Nice to see one who can reason now and then.

    Regards
    DL
    Arrogant nonsense. Strive for better or I'll declare this thread trolled. This is the philosophy forum and all your sophistry was addressed before the end of the first page of this thread. Any more and you are encroaching on bandwidth provided for genuine discussion. If so, I shall lock this thread.

    Mod mode.

    shanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Keep up the thinking. Nice to see one who can reason now and then.

    Regards
    DL
    Arrogant nonsense. Strive for better or I'll declare this thread trolled. This is the philosophy forum and all your sophistry was addressed before the end of the first page of this thread. Any more and you are encroaching on bandwidth provided for genuine discussion. If so, I shall lock this thread.

    Mod mode.

    shanks
    +

    I will try not to give you an excuse to show that you have free will in this.

    I hope you were already in favor of my side because I think you just proved it.

    Regards
    DL
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