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Thread: Cleaner theory

  1. #1 Cleaner theory 
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    Hi all,

    I hope you are not bored by the poor story I made as followed:

    Suppose there is a person born to be strange who like to do nothing but to be a cleaner. However old is he, all the time, the most delightful thing is to clean something. To be a bathroom cleaner, a street sweeper, a full time cleaner, or a part time cleaner, whatever job it is, what is always to bear in mind is that "I want to clean something!". Let's give him a name as Loopie. (Please leave the politically-correction for a while).

    By the time Loopie was still a child, he was not only a cleaning fanatical but also a completely extremist. You have to concur that the passion Loopie has to cleaning is never less than that Einstein has to physics. On the other hand, he never does his homework, which accounts for his poor result throughout his education. He prefer cleaning to doing those crappy homework, to thinking, to doing anything which has nothing to do with his pursuit. Followed by such a clue, what possible job will he get? Not hard to guess, what he will choose and what he will be chosen to do is to be the holy cleaner, because it is the ideal career Loopie is pursuing, and fighting against his parents, together with all the people he called morons who believe dreaming to be a street sweeper is stupid.
    Eventually, Mr. Loopie enjoyed his most wonderful time cleaning as long as he wishes, until one day when he no longer has the ability to make ends meet to maintain his family. Someday in a certain minute, he can't help to shout to the street " Who the hell defines street sweeper has low salary. Who the hell makes me like to be a street sweeper!!"

    Does it means the society is prejudiced to those sort of people whom, otherwise ought to be given extra assistance?


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  3. #2  
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    Sounds like a vocation to me, and people with vocations (unlike us dilletantes) tend to care less about the material things. Lucky them, I say.


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    "Sounds like a vocation to me, and people with vocations (unlike us dilletantes) tend to care less about the material things."

    Are you saying that people with vocations don't try hard enough?
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  5. #4  
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    it seems that I'm not good at making stories. let me make it short.

    A person is never assigned to be guilty for his passion on doing something(make it a "cleaner" here), because he doesn't even have a chance to choose what is his favorite. But the society defines that cleaner doom to have extreme low salary.

    Now who is to blame?
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    it seems that I'm not good at making stories. let me make it short.

    A person is never assigned to be guilty for his passion on doing something(make it a "cleaner" here), because he doesn't even have a chance to choose what is his favorite. But the society defines that cleaner doom to have extreme low salary.

    Now who is to blame?
    Let me make myself clearer to Wildstar and you: I believe you are both making the presumption that there us some special 'value' in material things.

    If you have a vocation, your values will be based upon that - there is nobody to blame is society does not pay as much for it. It is apples and ornages.

    And it is an unfortunate misunderstanding to imagine I am claiming that people with a vocation don't try hard enough - they just do not try to match the social norm of value that you seem to be implying - that it lies in material things.
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  7. #6  
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    well....Are you saying that

    someone who are very interested in GESC, and who thus got A+ all the way, finally become a millionaire is an "apple".

    On the other hand, for those cleaning-fanatical people who have to pitch every penny carefully, got an "orange".

    Are you telling me, Apple=Orange?
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  8. #7  
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    No I don't put a value on any way of life. If you live as you like and like life then you are successful. I may have just read it wrong.
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  9. #8  
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    I don't think you understand what i mean....

    let me make it the simplest i can;

    Person A:
    Enjoy and do well in GESC-----> become a rich person because of his strong interested.
    Person B:
    Enjoy and do well in Sweeping street--->become a street sweeper who is very poor.

    And Person B complain about that he doesn't has the RIGHT INTERESTED as Person A.
    Who is to blame.....
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    I don't think you understand what i mean....

    let me make it the simplest i can;

    Person A:
    Enjoy and do well in GESC-----> become a rich person because of his strong interested.
    Person B:
    Enjoy and do well in Sweeping street--->become a street sweeper who is very poor.

    And Person B complain about that he doesn't has the RIGHT INTERESTED as Person A.
    Who is to blame.....
    God? For making people differently? Himself? For pretending not to have free will? Evolution? For creating variety?
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    Okay i see now. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I guess it would be his genes or his epigenome that would be the cause of his situation
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  12. #11  
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    I guess it would be his genes or his epigenome that would be the cause of his situation.[/quote]

    well....

    That's not strong enough. We donate a million dollars to those babies who born with physical defficiencies but irrespective of the sort of people I mentioned. Moreover, all to often, we allegedly condemn those "cleaners" as people don't work hard or people deserve such a life... Is this a novel type of mental defficiency, for which do not fit the appetite of the society.

    Could we say that it is the society which makes people's lives tremendiously diferent?

    As it's true that the society defines what kind of job will be better off.
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  13. #12  
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    BTW there is a spelling mistake the exam is GCSE
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  14. #13  
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    I'm terible at spelling. I just type fast and then right click. So your a teacher?
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  15. #14  
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    No.I am student who is about to enter the university.

    The previous post about the spelling mistake is mine. I spell GCSE wrongly. I don't mean to say its yours hahahah.
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  16. #15  
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    lol okay
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  17. #16  
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    Anyoen has some idea?
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  18. #17  
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    so...is this a very difficult question?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    so...is this a very difficult question?
    Not difficult. Already responded to.

    I fear you wish to make a political statement about the monetary vaklue society assigns to various professions, and have couched it in terms of people's vocations.

    I say again that a vocation is fulfilling enough in itself for society's values to become an irrelevance to the person practising it. Nun's do not ask for better pay.

    And if a person is a dedicated cleaner, inside his or her own head, there are pretty high-paying jobs for people prepared to apply those skills diligently. Look up specialist car detailers, for instance.

    If you want a moral argument about society's assignation of worth, however, please come right out and say it, and we'll see if anybody wishes to get involved.
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  20. #19  
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    Yeah... Perhaps I had too much prunes and prisms in my language.

    Yeah I mean a moral argument about society's assignation of worth.

    thank you for your correction..
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  21. #20  
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    Anybody?
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  22. #21  
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    I tend to disagree that doctors are worth more than farmers but can't be bothered to do much about it. Drug dealers are worth very little in my opinion, but I suppose a part of society values them greatly; society has several value scales in place depending on the population. Evidently manicurists are valued, a concept which I entirely fail to grasp, perhaps it is only a matter of time before street sweeping becomes en vogue.
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  23. #22  
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    Well, you get paid not because you are doing a job (you might love) but because someone wants you to do that job.

    Having something you are passionate about is something beautiful, but having to do your job is a completely different thing.

    Think about Loopie being passionate about eating chocolate, or watching TV...
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  24. #23  
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    Having something you are passionate about is something beautiful, but having to do your job is a completely different thing
    that's the point!

    don't you think it's more beautiful that having to do your job and having to do something you are passionate about is the same thing ?
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  25. #24  
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    No. doing a job you don't care about and doing a job you love are two different things.
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  26. #25  
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    well....exactly, so what do you mean by different?

    you mean if some one will give better performance if he is doing what he is passionate about ?
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  27. #26  
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    Loopie's potentials as a cleaning fanatic are being underestimated here. To outsiders just "cleaning" conjures one dull image. But he with the cleaning vocation reaches specialties we don't imagine. He could grow obsessed with scouring clots from blood vessels. He could rake pebble seas in the Emperor's tea gardens. And what really drives him, at the core, is a need to "just clean stuff".

    Many professions are filled by uninspired labourers, not keeners. The keeners soon alienate from their willfully drudging coworkers, and move to niches only they are capable of.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  28. #27  
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    yeah...that's probably true.

    because we underestimate the potential of a cleaning job, therefor we think everyone can do it very well, and that's exactly why everyone on the street could be his rivals.

    He is where he is, is because of his vocation.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    everyone on the street could be his rivals.

    He is where he is, is because of his vocation.
    Unsure we agree here. I was saying to "everyone on the street" cleaning is a job they'll do but just well enough. And it ends there. But Loopie takes it further so in time he'll overflow that passion into something interesting and/or he'll meet people who value the quality of his work as much as he does.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  30. #29  
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    It seems in the story I assume he's a person who just want to clean something, which

    means he doesn't think anything beyond cleaning. Otherwise , he won't be called "had a

    vocation" rather than a person using the cleaning job as an avenue to get the material

    wealth he really want, if he ends up being someone but not a cleaner. Take Bill Gates

    for instance, I bet he is no longer doing research in the computer lab.
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  31. #30  
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    I thought Loopie got more satisfaction by cleaning than making money. I'm confused.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Yeah..that's right, and that's why he sacrifice so much to gain a job as a cleaner.

    However, he has to pay his bills; he has to eat. Without enough money you can't live a

    decent life; you can't have good meals. I'm sure he's more satisfied cleaning things

    rather than making more money, but at this time, he is not satisfied compared with

    those who can maximize the value of their lives as well as making a lot of money.
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  33. #32  
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    You don't like this imaginary fellow much do you?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  34. #33  
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    NO, I don't, and that's all...
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  35. #34  
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    NO, I don't, and that's all...
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  36. #35  
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    but apparently that's not the answer to the question.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Yeah..that's right, and that's why he sacrifice so much to gain a job as a cleaner.

    However, he has to pay his bills; he has to eat. Without enough money you can't live a

    decent life; you can't have good meals. I'm sure he's more satisfied cleaning things

    rather than making more money, but at this time, he is not satisfied compared with

    those who can maximize the value of their lives as well as making a lot of money.

    That guy should move to Sweden, or another good socialist country. In America, there is the free market economy, ultimate capitalism, corporations first, people last. The richest people of America (5% of the population), pay as much tax as a street cleaner or any other guy, is this fair? At least Obama is trying to make things a little more fair, people who make more than $250.000 a year, have to pay more tax. Those people are 5% of the population, yet almost all working-class americans protested against this. Why?
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  38. #37  
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    you deviate from the question.
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  39. #38  
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    If a guy is compelled to become a sweeper. Would he indeed gripe about his job. Probably not. Sometime musicians give up many things for their music because they are compelled to live for music. So the premise that the sweeper will complain may be faulty.
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  40. #39  
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    Yeah..you are right..

    many musicians finally became famous after going through a lot of surfering experience. But the fact is that finally they became "FAMOUS", and they are "MUSICIANS". which is not a sweeper who never want to be famous but only to make ends meet to maintain his cleaning career.

    Having a second thought of your opinion is like you are saying people also choose to give up something before they become millionaires.

    This is again true for my paradigm that Everyone have to lose something in pursuing what they want, it's just that the society make the sacrifice tremendously different..


    How do you know nobody is up to be a sweeper..oh kid you're sitting in the box and saying how come there's someone outside.
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  41. #40  
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    Yeah the sacrifices of the sweeper are probably continual, while the musician has the open ended opportunity to become wealthy and famous. where there are no famous sweepers. so the sacrifice is different for different people. Becoming a Doctor is putting a lot of effort and probably many sacrifices to become a doctor but one they reach the doctoral level they will most likely succeed in making lots of money to make ends meet. the sweeper however may find the continual sacrifice a small price to pay for being able to do the best thing in the world, sweeping.
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  42. #41  
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    Oh come on...


    well, your assumption about the doctor is not valid and it seems the same problem still exists that no matter if the people are conscious about it or not, finally they will earn back something as reward of being a doctor.

    Additionally, don't you think the doctor assumption is same as the musician one? They are decent-salary jobs

    In short, the case on a sweeper is special because they got nothing after their sacrifices, and the fact is that they have to continue such an anguishing process to be called a sweeper.
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  43. #42 Re: Cleaner theory 
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Hi all,

    I hope you are not bored by the poor story I made as followed:

    Suppose there is a person born to be strange who like to do nothing but to be a cleaner. However old is he, all the time, the most delightful thing is to clean something. To be a bathroom cleaner, a street sweeper, a full time cleaner, or a part time cleaner, whatever job it is, what is always to bear in mind is that "I want to clean something!". Let's give him a name as Loopie. (Please leave the politically-correction for a while).

    By the time Loopie was still a child, he was not only a cleaning fanatical but also a completely extremist. You have to concur that the passion Loopie has to cleaning is never less than that Einstein has to physics. On the other hand, he never does his homework, which accounts for his poor result throughout his education. He prefer cleaning to doing those crappy homework, to thinking, to doing anything which has nothing to do with his pursuit. Followed by such a clue, what possible job will he get? Not hard to guess, what he will choose and what he will be chosen to do is to be the holy cleaner, because it is the ideal career Loopie is pursuing, and fighting against his parents, together with all the people he called morons who believe dreaming to be a street sweeper is stupid.
    Eventually, Mr. Loopie enjoyed his most wonderful time cleaning as long as he wishes, until one day when he no longer has the ability to make ends meet to maintain his family. Someday in a certain minute, he can't help to shout to the street " Who the hell defines street sweeper has low salary. Who the hell makes me like to be a street sweeper!!"

    Does it means the society is prejudiced to those sort of people whom, otherwise ought to be given extra assistance?

    Keywords; poor, strange, completely, Einstein, homework, education, crappy, chosen, holy, ideal, career, morons, dreaming, wishes, maintain, low, prejudiced, extra.

    Define these singularly
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Oh come on...


    well, your assumption about the doctor is not valid and it seems the same problem still exists that no matter if the people are conscious about it or not, finally they will earn back something as reward of being a doctor.

    Thats what I said.

    Additionally, don't you think the doctor assumption is same as the musician one? They are decent-salary jobs

    In short, the case on a sweeper is special because they got nothing after their sacrifices, and the fact is that they have to continue such an anguishing process to be called a sweeper.
    Thats what I said too.
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  45. #44  
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    I don't get it ...sry
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  46. #45  
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    I'm saying that the sweeper continues to sacrifice when a doctor probably has to sacrifice less in terms of monetary sustainability.
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  47. #46  
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    Do you think people should spend the same amount of value to obtain the same amount of reward?

    I mean a doctor and a sweeper both working on a job they are keen on, namely they are satisfied on the spiritual welfare.

    While a doctor has a decent salary, a sweeper has to endure a poor one.
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  48. #47  
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    anyone?
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  49. #48  
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    So this topic is just going to sink like this?
    arezliszt.net
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  50. #49  
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    anyone give me some clue?
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Do you think people should spend the same amount of value to obtain the same amount of reward?

    I mean a doctor and a sweeper both working on a job they are keen on, namely they are satisfied on the spiritual welfare.

    While a doctor has a decent salary, a sweeper has to endure a poor one.
    lemme try, I believe that this cannot be judged as somehting in the category of judging some one to be somewhat "lower" because of thier core charachteristics. (such as being happy with a clean excellent sweep) In their own respective worlds both are the masters of their domain and have SOLIDLY EQUAL amounts in degrees of contentment, and achievement. Imagine a billionaire and a social worker, in their eyes they suceeded to their heart's desires, billionaire gets money, worker gets to council young lives, in many ways that can't be replaced by bills the worker has actually won the match, so then it boils down to the phrase "being happy with small things"
    Imagination is a key to the foundation of thought that will forever stand.

    Miguel Reyes
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    He may be the best sweeper in the world, training others in his field of expertise!
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  53. #52  
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    He may be the best sweeper in the world, training others in his field of expertise!
    Hehe..I've already thought someone would think of such a trick, and this is why I add the condition that he ONLY want to be a cleaner. If turn to teaching someting he is good at, he is not crazy about cleaning but something making money relating to his specialty.
    Additionally, to be the coach of a certain field requires a lot more than just the relevant skill.

    We've been discussing this scenario previously.
    arezliszt.net
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