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Thread: Reality?

  1. #1 Reality? 
    mud
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    Night time comes. You start feeling sleepy. You go to bed. You fall asleep.
    A dream comes along. Let's say it's a nightmare.
    What do you do?
    Do you say, "Oh oh... here comes a nightmare. I better wake up." ?
    No.
    Do you say, "Oh oh... here comes a nightmare. Oh well, I'll just sit back and wait it out." ?
    No.
    Why do you not say such things?

    Because you don't know it's a nightmare. You don't even know you're sleeping.
    You're terrified. You're panicking. You're freakin' out. You're trying to runaway from... whatever
    terror is in your nightmare.
    And then... poof! You wake up.

    For a second or two you're still frightened. Your heart is beating hard. You might even be sweating.
    And then you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."

    So, if you were convinced that whatever was going on in your nightmare was real ( after all,
    you were actually scared, so you had to be convinced that it was real), then how do you know
    that "this" world you wake up to from your nightmare is real?

    Maybe dying is just waking up to another world, and after a second or two, you look back at
    your life and you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."


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  3. #2  
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    Dreams just rearrange what you already know. Waking experience normally imposes things so unexpected you'd "never dream of them".

    Also, dreams only include what is necessary to the dream. No extraneous details to filter out. We are said to "dream in black & white" because colour is seldom relevant to a dream, so it's absent.


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  4. #3  
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    Yabut, you are talking about the nature of dream and of waking experience.
    You are not answering the question asked above, which I will now ask again:

    If you (I mean "you" in the rhetorical sense) were convinced that whatever
    was going on in your nightmare was real, and, when you "wake" up,
    you are convinced that whatever is going on in your waking experience is real,
    then, which one is reality?
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    Waking reality is generally considered "more real" than dreams because we collectively agree that many things are external to ourselves and consistent from one person to the next (objectively real). Dreams are completely subjective.

    If you and your flatmate had the same dreams every night, in the same manner that you and your flatmate might have the same waking experiences, then a better case can be made that dreams are some sort of 'reality.'

    The only somewhat rational way to continue the argument that dreams are reality is to suggest that your flatmates aren't real either, which ultimately gets to 'I think therefore I am' and that's pretty much the end of the line of thought.
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  6. #5 Re: Reality? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Night time comes. You start feeling sleepy. You go to bed. You fall asleep.
    A dream comes along. Let's say it's a nightmare.
    What do you do?
    Do you say, "Oh oh... here comes a nightmare. I better wake up." ?
    No.
    Do you say, "Oh oh... here comes a nightmare. Oh well, I'll just sit back and wait it out." ?
    No.
    Why do you not say such things?

    Because you don't know it's a nightmare. You don't even know you're sleeping.
    You're terrified. You're panicking. You're freakin' out. You're trying to runaway from... whatever
    terror is in your nightmare.
    And then... poof! You wake up.

    For a second or two you're still frightened. Your heart is beating hard. You might even be sweating.
    And then you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."

    So, if you were convinced that whatever was going on in your nightmare was real ( after all,
    you were actually scared, so you had to be convinced that it was real), then how do you know
    that "this" world you wake up to from your nightmare is real?

    Maybe dying is just waking up to another world, and after a second or two, you look back at
    your life and you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."
    Life itself is a nightmare to many people.

    I guess it all depends on how much asleep you are and let the 'robot' take over when you should be awake?

    If you are having nightmares or rather night terrors then maybe they are an indication of something wrong?

    Have you ever tried lucid dreaming?

    When you consciously stay awake when you fall asleep and dream?

    Try it if you can. It can be very empowering.

    We don't have to be submissive to our dreams.

    ( I feel it is important to also add that through submission we can also gain a lot of insight into our lives and psyche through analysing the contents of our dreams so submission and passive dreaming is not always a 'bad' thing)

    And if you can learn to control your dreams (which is NOT impossible) then you have a very powerful tool at your disposal.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by free radical
    ...which ultimately gets to 'I think therefore I am' and that's pretty much the end of the line of thought.
    I think not.

    I'd say the end of the line of thought would be 'I am'.

    Now, all that's left to ascertain is 'What is it exactly that I am?'

    Once that's established, we know what reality is.

    Nevertheless, the original question has yet to be answered.

    What is real? Dreams? Waking experience? Something else?
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Maybe dying is just waking up to another world, and after a second or two, you look back at
    your life and you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."

    Nevertheless, the original question has yet to be answered.
    If you create little paradoxes such as that, then you most likely won't get your question answered in this life.
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    Uhhhhuhh

    Well life certainly may as well be a dream to some, considering some spend the majority of their waking time sound asleep.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Now, all that's left to ascertain is 'What is it exactly that I am?'

    Once that's established, we know what reality is.
    Actually, it seems to me that the only answer to the first question, in the context you pose, is "a set of experiences." Whether a set of experiences is reality or not, is arguable. I'd argue it probably isn't.
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    What utter heaps of trite you all talk

    I'm guessing you are all single guys, isolated from the real world because you are too wrapped up in a sense of self important pity for the woe of your existence which amounts to nothing but boredom and emptiness because nothing else really interests you apart from your own sorry state of affairs?

    Is it not time to get a life?

    Or at least attempt one??
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    Some people are born to think about such things as reality in itself, others are born to flash through life with little thought about 'what is reality?' , 'what is 'i'?.

    Society or people in general tend to fall to hereditary prejudices when in one to one conversations about such things, this makes inaccurate understandings and words with the spark of truth in rare occurance.. and that is why it is very good to put the things which dwell upon one's mind down in writting - forum.

    'I am'

    'I' is the ego. 'Am' is the thing you are doing.

    When one says to one's self 'I sit quietly', that being is reflecting upon sitting quietly. The reflection is not sitting quietly the body is sitting quietly. The reflection does not exist - not exist in the sense that it is an illusion, the reflection takes away the essence of the action.

    We must use the words 'I' or 'You' in order to communicate effective lanuage to other people but really i do not think 'i' or 'you' actually exist as a thing in itself, or rather i should say 'you' and 'i' do exist but we are all one 'i', as all bodies are of one creation with all other matter.

    So the individual 'i' is one big 'i' experiencing life through the subjective senses of the subjective bodies of life.

    'I' seems to think it owns the body and is responsible for the actions of the individual body but really 'I' only slows down 'am'.
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    Have you even considered the possibility that there might be more than one 'I' ?
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    Well thats pretty much what the above says. Everyone thinks he is an individual but it is the same 'i' in you as it is in 'me' and the same 'i' in a bird as it is in 'me' or 'you'.
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    What experiences the senses of a bird is also experiencing 'you'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Well thats pretty much what the above says. Everyone thinks he is an individual but it is the same 'i' in you as it is in 'me' and the same 'i' in a bird as it is in 'me' or 'you'.
    Are you sure about that or is that mere speculation?

    Which 'I' of you said that?

    Have you ever contradicted yourself or experienced conflict with your ideas and thoughts?

    You seem to think we all have one I an your I an my I and a birds I are all the same.

    Have you considered the possibility that your personality might be constructed of more than one 'I' ?
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    I think and feel this is the way of the experience of life.
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  18. #17  
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    Ok boyz & girlz, let's get back on track!

    The point brought forth is fairly simple.
    It is NOT about the NATURE of dreams, of waking experience or even of death.

    It is about "where is reality hiding?"

    The argument is this:
    If we believe dreams to be real (I use nightmares because it make the point more obvious),
    and we DO believe they are real, because when we have nightmares we are afraid.
    If we knew that nightmares are just dreams and therefore not real, then we would not be
    afraid when we experience one. We would just say, "Oh, it's just a dream, and because
    I know it's just a dream, I don't need to be afraid.

    But WE ARE AFRAID! Therefore, we believe that nightmares are real.

    So, if we believe that nightmares (or any dream) are real, then how can we
    claim that waking experience is reality?

    (Let's try not to digress into irrelevance, please.
    Read my original post properly and stick with the concept. Thank you.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    The argument is this:
    If we believe dreams to be real (I use nightmares because it make the point more obvious),
    and we DO believe they are real, because when we have nightmares we are afraid.
    If we knew that nightmares are just dreams and therefore not real, then we would not be
    afraid when we experience one. We would just say, "Oh, it's just a dream, and because
    I know it's just a dream, I don't need to be afraid.

    But WE ARE AFRAID! Therefore, we believe that nightmares are real.
    Ermm, some people have the experience you describe, and others recognise dreams, whilst sleeping, as dreams, and do not find nightmares frightening.
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    Reality is the experience of dreams and reality is the experience of matter.

    When we experience what we call 'dreams' we experience the reality of the human brain's imagination.

    When we experience what we call 'physical reality' we experience matter and substance.

    Both are a part of the same reality.

    Human senses are finite and have developed in accordance to our survival so we cannot experience physical reality in its absolute entirity, if we could we would probally be blinded by the ammount of matter around us.
    So we only sense a small ammount of reality.

    Our brains are not fully developed - as one man may have a greater interlect than another man, this shows the human brain is not fully developed to its absolute potential, which means that we cannot understand the imagaination in its absolute.

    So this is real (we are real) but we are not comprehending its in its absolute form.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by free radical
    ...and others recognise dreams, whilst sleeping, as dreams, and do not find nightmares frightening.
    Well... at best, they "say" they recognise dreams.

    I, for one, don't buy that for a second. But what they claim, and what I believe
    is of little importance.

    And once again, this is off target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Reality is the experience of dreams and reality is... etc.
    The idea here is not to define reality, or dreams, or anything else for that matter.

    We keep asserting that dreams are not real. Yet, when we wake up from one,
    we assume, without ever questioning the event, that we have awakened into "reality",
    and that the dream was not real.

    We get up in the morning, we have breakfast, we go to work, and so on...
    and we accept all these events and the world around us as being what reality is.

    But, neverthe less, we still believe that the dream (nice or nightmarish) we experience
    when we're off "sleeping" is real.

    So again, the question is:
    If we believe that the events of a dream are real when we are experiencing them,
    why then do we suddenly change our minds when we wake up, and decide that
    'oh well no, that wasn't real after all; this world I wake up in is what reality is'.

    Makes no sense!
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    Well mud, when you imagine something, say the quickest route from your home to a friend's, how do you know the trip didn't really happen? When you feel an itch on your scalp, how do you know you aren't just imagining it?

    "Not to define reality, or dreams, or anything" in this discussion can only serve confusion.

    My dreams, are thoughts. Far-flung, rapt thoughts, drifting free of distraction and ordinary consequence, for sure. But they're just thoughts. Well emotions too. Anyway nothing I can't "dream up" in a meditative state. Sometimes I dream about pipe fittings & trying not to torque a seized nut so hard it breaks.

    I guess there's a simple neurological explanation for our easy differentiation between experience and reflection. Something to do with impulse frequency maybe.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Well... at best, they "say" they recognise dreams.

    I, for one, don't buy that for a second. But what they claim, and what I believe
    is of little importance.
    They would seem to be important to the argument. May I ask you why you are so adamant that no one could be in a dream and aware that they are dreaming? Since this is a common experience for me I am puzzled by your outright rejection of it.
    This seems important to the discussion, since if your sense of reality is so solopsistic that you automatically reject a different experience then I do not see how any dialogue can be held with you.
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    The brain can simulate new experiences, by combining a number of old ones. Like skydiving in a dream could be concocted from several less extreme experiences that you have actually experienced.
    I beleive dreaming is just your brain simulating sensual experience. Creating the inputs normally supplied by your ears and eyes etc in the waking life. So preception of reality is essentially no different than dreaming in terms of the fact the same processes are happening using actual sensory input as opposed to simulated input. Reality is just sensory perception.
    The ability to tell that reality is real can be attributed to the fact that you are conciously aware that you are not faking sensory perception, but when your dreaming your only unconciously aware of the fact you are faking it.
    Lucid dreaming is forcing that knowledge into your awareness. After all, your own brain should know its faking your senses. Your brain is simply exercising, considering you spend 30 percent of your day sleeping.

    Hence the distinction is obvious when you are actually awake. Now if our actual sensory inputs were being tricked, such as in the matrix, that would be where it would be impossible to make the distinction.

    This isnt to say that your brain is still intact in a dream. Clearly you can behave strangely, almost brain damaged at times, or very confused. Other times your cognitive powers are intact and you can experience your dream as if it was the real world (lucid dreams are ace!!). this is simply you experiencing your brain in different states of rest. Your brain doesn suddenly switch between sleep stages. The stages are defined clearly, but the transitions are not, and you will experience different levels of awareness while dreaming.

    So i dont think your question is really valid. Waking life is so much more real than the best lucid dream, not because your perceptions tell you its real, but because you KNOW its real. Your brain knows its not simulating the experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Well... at best, they "say" they recognise dreams.

    I, for one, don't buy that for a second. But what they claim, and what I believe
    is of little importance.
    They would seem to be important to the argument. May I ask you why you are so adamant that no one could be in a dream and aware that they are dreaming? Since this is a common experience for me I am puzzled by your outright rejection of it.
    This seems important to the discussion, since if your sense of reality is so solopsistic that you automatically reject a different experience then I do not see how any dialogue can be held with you.
    Agreed

    In fact, there is a technique where one can be aware of dreaming whilst dreaming and it is called - Lucid Dreaming

    It seems to me also that if anyone gives their own opinion of the matter or 'concept' as you put it, you then argue that the subject is 'going off track'

    Therefore it is impossible for anyone to add to your 'concept' or argument unless they regurgitate your idea.

    Therefore this is not a 'discussion' what you are actually looking for instead are people that agree with you word for word.

    How dreary is that? I may as well be asleep!
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    ...I am puzzled by your outright rejection of it.
    ...since if your sense of reality is so solopsistic that you automatically reject a different experience... etc.
    I don't "reject" anything. I simply don't believe it (something I have a right to).
    All this belong in the world of UFOs, the Illuminati and whatnot.
    The sort of things I have no interest in.

    Quote Originally Posted by harvestein
    So i dont think your question is really valid. Waking life is so much more real than the best lucid dream, not because your perceptions tell you its real, but because you KNOW its real. Your brain knows its not simulating the experience.
    My, my! Aren't we a tad dogmatic?
    Do you imply that you actually "KNOW" what reality is?

    So many of the answers in this thread attempt to define reality when
    in fact, my question has nothing to do with that.

    Here's the question again:
    If, when we are experiencing a dream, we believe the events to be real
    (ie, we are terrified during a nightmare), then how can we assert that waking experience is real?

    (Admin, would you please create a New Age forum to keep the flakes out of this one. Thank you.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    So again, the question is:
    If we believe that the events of a dream are real when we are experiencing them,
    why then do we suddenly change our minds when we wake up, and decide that
    'oh well no, that wasn't real after all; this world I wake up in is what reality is'.
    Because waking reality is verifiable and therefore more objective, ie you and your flatmate agree upon events happening. Dreams are subjective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Here's the question again:
    If, when we are experiencing a dream, we believe the events to be real
    (ie, we are terrified during a nightmare), then how can we assert that waking experience is real?
    It seems to me Mud that you need to get a grasp what the terms 'reality' and 'belief' mean because you are obviously confusing the two.

    I would suggest you go an talk to a psychiatrist in order to distinguish between them.

    It also seems quite a possibility that whilst you think you are 'awake' you could in reality be 'asleep'

    Based on the nonsense of your arguments that is quite a high probability.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by free radical
    Because waking reality is verifiable and therefore more objective,
    ie you and your flatmate agree upon events happening. Dreams are subjective.
    You mean to tell me that you never sat at your mother's kitchen table, agreeing on
    the best way to replace the coupling flange on a Stillman grinder,
    while she has the body of a moose and the head of a fish?

    Good grief man! You haven't lived yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    It seems to me Mud that you need to get a grasp what the terms 'reality' and 'belief' mean because you are obviously confusing the two.

    I would suggest you go an talk to a psychiatrist in order to distinguish between them.

    It also seems quite a possibility that whilst you think you are 'awake' you could in reality be 'asleep'

    Based on the nonsense of your arguments that is quite a high probability.
    Speaking of psychiatrists, why don't you go and ask one what attacking
    character means as a last resort argument

    Let's get back on track.

    Here's the question again:
    If, when we are experiencing a dream, we believe the events to be real
    (ie, we are terrified during a nightmare), then how can we assert that waking experience is real?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Quote Originally Posted by free radical
    Because waking reality is verifiable and therefore more objective,
    ie you and your flatmate agree upon events happening. Dreams are subjective.
    You mean to tell me that you never sat at your mother's kitchen table, agreeing on
    the best way to replace the coupling flange on a Stillman grinder,
    while she has the body of a moose and the head of a fish?
    These are the sort of tipoffs that could alert you to the fact that you are in a dream state.
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    There a state that film directors pull, called suspension of disbelief. It doesn't require virtual reality though, just internal consistency. For example a cartoon can pull suspension of disbelief. A novel can too. In a way, even a game of Monopoly can. It's about focus. You might enter this state while clipping your real toenails.

    I think, Mud, you're asking how consciousness can narrow focus while aware that smaller frame is part of a larger frame (reality). And, recalling The Matrix, how we know the larger frame is boundless (real).
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    Quote Originally Posted by free radical
    These are the sort of tipoffs that could alert you to the fact that you are in a dream state.

    Good one!
    I'll sleep with one eye open.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I think, Mud, you're asking how consciousness can narrow focus while
    aware that smaller frame is part of a larger frame (reality). And, recalling The Matrix,
    how we know the larger frame is boundless (real).
    Finally, we're getting somewhere!
    Although still somewhat off the mark, but a very good improvement.
    However, what do you say we keep planet Hollywood out of this. Ok?

    The important word here is 'consciousness' I think, especially if it's in the same sentence as 'boundless'.

    That sounds better than believing in something that doesn't exist. Yes? No?
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  33. #32  
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    I was trying to say that you may not know when you are dreaming but you definately know when your awake. That is because subconciously your brain knows its not simulating your senses, whereas in a dream it is. Your brain cant trick itself into thinking it is dreaming and when you ARE dreming you are at least subconciously aware that you are. Lucid dreaming is a fact, if you cant accept that then your argument has serious flaws. Plenty of people can tell when there dreaming.
    The distinction between not dreaming and dreaming is clear. If your trying to make the argument that reality can only be as real as a dream, then fine, but dreams dont create physical 'REAL' sensory perception, it is faked.
    the question 'What is reality' is not the same question as yours. Your question relates to the perception of reality and the perception of dreams and if the two can really be distiguished. Which they can.
    I like philosophy, but such futile abstract arguments like 'what is reality' are pointless and it is likely that they have no coherent answer. We are restricted by our senses, and our scale. We can never grasp the entire of reality, only what our biology allows us to experience.
    'Aint no thing like a chicken wing'
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    The important word here is 'consciousness' I think, especially if it's in the same sentence as 'boundless'.

    That sounds better than believing in something that doesn't exist. Yes? No?
    You may have lost me.

    The thing about reality (vs. thinking, dreaming) is, it imposes all sorts of unexpected and irrelevant details, and is actually pretty annoying. Infinitely.

    The mind on the other hand is bounded and deals in archetypes. It's a box of cartoons. So you shake the box, dreaming, and get experience palpably different from the waking senses. Or, you should.

    Maybe it varies between introverts (oversensitive) and extroverts (undersensitive). My experience, right now I really need to wash my hands and they feel gunky and a bit itchy, plus my stomach is rumbling for lunch I skipped - there is no way I'd simulate these subtle tingles of the nerves in dreaming. But perhaps one oblivious to all this extraneous information would experience the world simplified and dreamlike.

    Anyway, you may also confirm reality by its boundless nature. Thoughts & dreams can only arrange known things and change the subject when they've exhausted what is known or might follow. Waking experience though keeps feeding us new & unexpected information the deeper we delve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pong
    Thoughts & dreams can only arrange known things and change the subject when they've exhausted what is known or might follow. Waking experience though keeps feeding us new & unexpected information the deeper we delve.
    I disagree with this. I think your brain can combine previous experiences and make predictions or infer what a certain experience would feel like. May not be entirely accurate to what it would be like in reality, but it can still be regarded as a new experience. I used skydiving as an example earlier. This experience could be created by combining other less extreme experiences.
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  36. #35  
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    Sure. That's "arranging known things" and what "might follow".
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by harvestein
    Lucid dreaming is a fact, if you cant accept that then your argument has serious flaws.
    If , one day, little green men land a UFO in front of me, abduct me and take me to their leader,
    then and only then will I believe in UFOs.

    If, one day, I have a "lucid" dream, then and only then will I believe in lucid dreams.

    Now, I have an important announcement.

    Unless you guys quit wandering off into the netherworlds of irrelevance, I will quit this thread.

    These are the rules:
    - do not attempt to define reality
    - do not attempt to define dreams
    - do not attempt to define waking experience.
    none of the above has anything to do with the answer to my question.

    Please, go back to my first post, read it very very very carefully!

    The question really is very simple, and so should the answer be.
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  38. #37  
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    No no Mud, I guide you to the correct answer, you disobedient puppy.

    Gawd.


    The corroboration you seek, I suppose, is something to the tune of "Life's but a dream"?
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    Mud!

    Nice name

    It suits the discussion

    I would hate to sit opposite you and have a discussion

    No doubt I would be tied to a chair with a gimp mask on and a gag in my mouth and just have to listen and nod?

    Mmm........wonder how far we live apart..............
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    ...I am puzzled by your outright rejection of it.
    ...since if your sense of reality is so solopsistic that you automatically reject a different experience... etc.
    I don't "reject" anything. I simply don't believe it (something I have a right to).
    All this belong in the world of UFOs, the Illuminati and whatnot.
    The sort of things I have no interest in.
    I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but my problem with your statement is that in my world I am often aware I am dreaming, yet you state you do not believe me. That seems to be equivalent of calling me a liar.
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    ok mud, reality is a dream. You and your obtuse irritating dismissive and illogical argument are a figment of my imagination. We are not allowed to define anything for the purpose of the discussion. You siad:

    "So, if you were convinced that whatever was going on in your nightmare was real ( after all,
    you were actually scared, so you had to be convinced that it was real), then how do you know
    that "this" world you wake up to from your nightmare is real?"
    My responses dealt with how you know the difference between the two. In order to do that ill define whatever i feel like defining. You are implying that there is no way you can tell if reality is REAL, because REAL is a subjective term, there is no way to tell if real is real or not, you just have to live with that. Its an age old argument and futile, pointless as well if it wasnt so interesting to ponder on and discuss for short while, but there is no answer to this argument. Ask descartes. If you were unhappy with people stating that dreams and 'the fake real world' (as you would probably call it) are not indistiguishible then you shouldnt have mentioned dreams atall, it wasnt necessary to express what you were trying to get across.

    Have you not heard of Descartes' evil demon? Look it up, Its exactly what your going on about, your just expressing it with a bad attitude.

    And comparing lucid dreams with little green men and UFO's is utterly laughable.
    Its not science fiction or paranormal to realise your dreaming? Thats a crazy argument.
    'Aint no thing like a chicken wing'
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Quote Originally Posted by harvestein
    Lucid dreaming is a fact, if you cant accept that then your argument has serious flaws.
    If , one day, little green men land a UFO in front of me, abduct me and take me to their leader,
    then and only then will I believe in UFOs.

    If, one day, I have a "lucid" dream, then and only then will I believe in lucid dreams.

    Now, I have an important announcement.

    Unless you guys quit wandering off into the netherworlds of irrelevance, I will quit this thread.

    These are the rules:
    - do not attempt to define reality
    - do not attempt to define dreams
    - do not attempt to define waking experience.
    none of the above has anything to do with the answer to my question.

    Please, go back to my first post, read it very very very carefully!

    The question really is very simple, and so should the answer be.
    Yup. Your original question is assumptive. If you have dreams like that you are free to draw whatever conclusions you wish. In my dreams I am quite clear that I am dreaming, I am simply powerless at the time to change what's happening consciously. This is a clear distinction to me, from within my dreams, between my dreams and my waking experience. Unlike you, therefore, I do not experientially have any problems distinguishing between dreams and reality.

    If, on the other hand, you were not speaking of your personal experiences but a hypothetical example of a dreamer, I'd say that this particular hypothetical dreamer might genuinely have a problem distinguishing between the two. Possible diagnosis of schizophrenia if it gets serious.

    Finally, if you were asking these questions to highlight a philosophical point then, as others have pointed out, this is a well known and unresolved problem in philosophy first elucidated by Descartes.
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    Reality is the experience of dreams and reality is the experience of matter - why seperate the two into one being real and the other unreal? Both dreams and sensual experience are part of this reality.

    When we experience what we call 'dreams' we experience the reality of the human brain's imagination.

    When we experience what we call 'physical reality' we experience matter and substance.

    Both are a part of the same reality.
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Quote Originally Posted by harvestein
    Lucid dreaming is a fact, if you cant accept that then your argument has serious flaws.
    If , one day, little green men land a UFO in front of me, abduct me and take me to their leader,
    then and only then will I believe in UFOs.

    If, one day, I have a "lucid" dream, then and only then will I believe in lucid dreams.
    Now this is where you have 'reality' and consciousness totally wrong!

    Consciousness and perceiving reality does not come from passively waiting for something to come to you!

    Lucid dreaming requires effort and concentration.

    Consciousness is reality. So how we perceive reality is up to us and our efforts.

    In order to have something you have to reach out and grasp it with your mind, only then will it come to you.

    In order to learn we have to grasp what we are reading. In order to truly see we have to grasp what we are seeing. The same can be said for 'anything' we wish to understand, see, do, have and be.

    Grasping is reaching out.

    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Now, I have an important announcement.
    Uh-oh I'm all ears and I am reaching out to you with them............

    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    Unless you guys quit wandering off into the netherworlds of irrelevance, I will quit this thread.
    Oh that's a shame....ok...see ya then x
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud

    These are the rules:
    - do not attempt to define reality
    - do not attempt to define dreams
    - do not attempt to define waking experience.
    none of the above has anything to do with the answer to my question.

    Please, go back to my first post, read it very very very carefully!

    The question really is very simple, and so should the answer be.
    Ok (Are you a school teacher by any chance?)

    Quote Originally Posted by mud
    So, if you were convinced that whatever was going on in your nightmare was real ( after all,
    you were actually scared, so you had to be convinced that it was real), then how do you know
    that "this" world you wake up to from your nightmare is real?

    Maybe dying is just waking up to another world, and after a second or two, you look back at
    your life and you say, "Awww... shit. It was just a dream."
    Well now hang on a minute Mud

    What you are talking about here is a sense of reality

    So how come no one else can discuss reality?

    Or for that matter dreams, or waking experiences, which all make up ‘reality’

    The subject you are discussing here is reality and our perception of it.

    Such a topic requires a holistic approach where all such possibilities are considered as well as what the definitions mean.

    You are asking ‘how do you know that ‘this’ world you wake up to from your nightmare is real?

    That’s your question and you are looking for a single answer.

    Well then this is the wrong place for you, where debate and discussion about a topic are instigated by a thread or a question. Debates that encourage other people to put forward their ideas about a topic.

    I think this is more of a power trip for you.

    And I think you are insane to demand an answer to a question about reality that nobody is allowed answer or discuss because no-one is allowed to discuss ‘reality’ ‘dreams’ or ‘waking experience’!

    You are demanding that everyone be confined within the question and to contemplate nothing else beyond it.
    In fact it is a banal question in itself and the singular answer has been pondered and questioned by philosophers and thinkers for centuries.

    Perhaps you should read some Descartes?

    In fact what you’ve done is opened a debate about reality, dreams and consciousness, which has led to some interesting questions and answers and I think everyone is happy with this debate bar you.

    So you have become the weakest link.

    Good bye
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  46. #45  
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    Seconded.

    (It did occur to me that mud was making something of a horse's ass of himself. So Absum's recommendation would be a good one: try putting Descartes before the horse.)
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    Why choose to put 'horse ass' in here? It is not helpfull at all.

    Same applies for all the other digs written by others to gain some form of upmanship to support lacking confidence or over confidence within their own points.

    Such comments support the argument one is trying to make only in an artificial sense, if they were thrown into a real conversation would often hinder the chances of the other person speaking to his or her true potential.

    This is a grave mistake of many people, they say they agree with mankind acting to its full potential while at the same time knocking the fellow man down with insults and words misdirected from the true essential argument and possible progressive points.

    Oh how some hate to be wrong, even if its for the benifit of himself and others around him.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Why choose to put 'horse ass' in here? It is not helpfull at all.

    Same applies for all the other digs written by others to gain some form of upmanship to support lacking confidence or over confidence within their own points.

    Such comments support the argument one is trying to make only in an artificial sense, if they were thrown into a real conversation would often hinder the chances of the other person speaking to his or her true potential.

    This is a grave mistake of many people, they say they agree with mankind acting to its full potential while at the same time knocking the fellow man down with insults and words misdirected from the true essential argument and possible progressive points.

    Oh how some hate to be wrong, even if its for the benifit of himself and others around him.
    All ad hominems emphasised. Why choose to use them? It is not helpful at all.
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  49. #48  
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    Well think about them, they will apply quite correctly to alot of people, therfore are of more use than 'horse ass' or such..

    Surley you understand that post?

    Do you understand the depth of why 'horse ass' is used?
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  50. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Why choose to put 'horse ass' in here? It is not helpfull at all.
    Really? Why not try lightening up a little. Some humour (putting the cart before the horse - putting Descartes before the horse's ass) should help those not wrapped up in self righteousness to recall that no one has been killed or mortally offended on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Same applies for all the other digs written by others to gain some form of upmanship to support lacking confidence or over confidence within their own points.

    Such comments support the argument one is trying to make only in an artificial sense, if they were thrown into a real conversation would often hinder the chances of the other person speaking to his or her true potential.
    .
    Again, you are utterly missing the point. Bullshit is bullshit. I will not indulge those who demand political correctness at the expense of honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    This is a grave mistake of many people, they say they agree with mankind acting to its full potential while at the same time knocking the fellow man down with insults and words misdirected from the true essential argument and possible progressive points..
    There is no way on God's Earth (or random chances Earth, if you prefer) that anyone will reach their true potential by spouting bullshit. The sooner someone draws their attention to this fact the quicker they will progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Oh how some hate to be wrong, even if its for the benifit of himself and others around him.
    Yes. I've noticed that about you in your posts in this thread.
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  51. #50  
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    Well said.

    But through my experience of interaction with people, truth is often swept away, then covered by a rug of insults and misdirection.

    There is nothing funny about this.

    But commonly man does do this banter.
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  52. #51 I have several times done concious dreaming. 
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    In that i mean i knew i was dreaming, and i knew that if i did certain things i would wake up. The first time i could do this i found by luck why it was possible.
    As from many previous dreams i found out that allways the reason why i wake up is that in my dream i focused on the most intence part of the dream. Like people running after me, or monsters with knifes standing in my way, ready to use their knifes, or whatever creepy dream. These situasions are too intence for the unconcious part of the brain to tell the concious brain to wake up.
    But instead i determend myself(yes it can be done with lots of tries) that next dreams i wanted to control my dreams.
    I thought to myself what in the dream can i do to not loose the tread and wake up.
    I found out that in the dream, if you are able (meaning that you are a bit concious) to understand you are in a dream, try focus on less intence scenes in that perticular dream you get. Or try use your logic, on ilogical sollutions.
    Just an example: If you see a monster in your dream,,thats after you. Try turn arround and belive that you can jump out of that place to another more calm place. You can acctually, with training do that.
    And when you get clever, you will find out that you can acctually deside what dream you want to continue on, or create a dream of your own, before you go to sleep. This you can learn after you are able to control your dreams. Otherwise, your dream will allways end like all the other dreams.

    The fact that one are able to deside to continue one specific dream of choosing, or continue a dream that you dreamt before you woke up. Must atleast tell something about conciousness and sub conciousness etc..about the brain.
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    Well, i believe that we go in other world, when we die! We are born, we are growing up, go to school, finish school, go to work, finish whith work, you get old, you are boring to your children, then you die! And what? Everything is dark, you dont feel nothing, nothing is happening, like you lived for nothing! You live to die! To every part of your body disapear, your organs are not working, you are in the ground! You dont see nothing! There must be something after life, like heaven, where you go up there, live onother life, see your old friends and family, you see something! You are enjoying, and you remember that you dreamed the longest dreams tath you ever dreamed! You remember, that you were on earth, that you past some ugly and good things, to at the end come on that beautiful place, where everyone lives in harmony! That you dont need money to buy drum, to buy anything you like to do but you cant because it have a big price, that you dont give a piece of shit about politics, that you live in world where people love to be friends with you! That would be fantastic! After all, God really exist, i know that, so there must be heaven!
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tesla
    After all, God really exist, i know that, so there must be heaven!
    Oh God!

    I hope your right!

    Q......?
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  55. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    Well thats pretty much what the above says. Everyone thinks he is an individual but it is the same 'i' in you as it is in 'me' and the same 'i' in a bird as it is in 'me' or 'you'.
    Are you sure about that or is that mere speculation?

    Which 'I' of you said that?

    Have you ever contradicted yourself or experienced conflict with your ideas and thoughts?

    You seem to think we all have one I an your I an my I and a birds I are all the same.

    Have you considered the possibility that your personality might be constructed of more than one 'I' ?
    Of course, everyone has two eyes. (except pirates)


    Mud, since everyone has denied you your answer:
    Dreams are a state induced by your brain recounting it's memories while the individual having the dream is asleep. Life is the reality and Dreams are the false because based on the billions of tests done on sleeping test subjects, scientists have pretty much found out how dreams work (overstatement).

    But if you were alone and had no clue which existance was real, then you would probably assume reality to be the one after you wake up. (which is why dreams which show a dream image of the dreamer waking, and then create more scenarios to actually wake the the dreamer up, are so much more potent than normal ones)

    If you had no way of telling at all... Such as no knowledge of ever waking. Or falling asleep in the dream before you did wake. Then you would assume reality as your current state until proven otherwise.

    ALSO:

    Here's a few testers I picked up on a dream site once.
    Looking at clocks: In dreams, your brain's internal clock isn't displayed on actual clocks. So if you have a clock in your dream, then look at it, look away, look back. The time should have a drastic change. Jumping ahead a few minutes or several hours sometimes. Another idea is if you had a digital clock that had AM/PM difference in a dream with you. If it's nine thirty at night, then why is it a shiny day outside?

    Books: Same application. Look at a line of text, look away, look back. It usually won't be the same. (Certain people who have precise memorization have problems dealing with this test.)

    HOW TO INDUCE LUCID DREAMS:

    Do the testers constantly in real life. When you sleep, you will subconsciously do these again. When you find that you're in a dream, you can usually do many things that you want to see/do. Rather than let your mind play God.
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