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Thread: the universe is completely determined

  1. #1 the universe is completely determined 
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    I first had this idea when i was about 6, that everything will happenin in complete order, and i want to know if you guys think my theory is correct.

    okay so my idea is that if i went back 5 years, that everything would completely play out the exact same (if i was watching invisibly making no interactions at all in the universe in any way). because it would be like recording my life and watching it nothing would change because the old me from 5 years ago wouldn't have any different thoughts. because in the end what we do is based on the world around us and how our mind reacts to it, and there would be no way with no changes in the universe that i would get new thoughts.

    now lets just say im correct and yah, me 5 years ago doesnt do a single thing different. or anybody for that matter. wouldn't that mean that just since our thoughts and actions don't just randomly get switched, that our entire life is pre-determined and like going in the past, the future would play out the exact way it's going to play out??

    Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen

    BUT you can't get into that line of thought, because even thought it is chosen.. it doesn't matter, it's still you choosing them. and this future is based on what you do. You can't just sit around thinking it will be done for you, or you won't do anythin and that'd be future... i just try not to think about this theory lol.


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  3. #2  
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    There is more than one time dimension.


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    There is mroe than one time dimension.
    Okay, every dimension has it's own pre-determination.
    to discover is to create.
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  5. #4  
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    This has been brought up before when theories of time travel started to appear. The question of if you went back in time and killed your parents then you couldn't be born has lead ot this theory that you mentioned as well as the theory of multiple universes.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
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  6. #5  
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    A simple test to see if everything is absolutley determined is as follows;

    'slow' yourself down and get your mind to focus alot on one action, for instance - clenching your fist into a ball. Now look at your fist and tell yourself that you will open your fist in 5 seconds (as a measurment of your free choice).

    So here we have a 'predetermined' plan of action but it was actually created by you.

    During those 5 seconds you had the same ammount of 'free will' to open it before the 5 seconds was up or to hold the fist longer than the 5 seconds.

    Ofcourse, due to the natural laws of physics and nature your hand will open eventually but for certain we do (as humans especially) have a large ammount of power over the determination of what we can naturally effect..

    It seems 'free will' or 'choice' is a natural development in the mind given to life, humans in particular have a large ammount of control over one's own actions yet one is bound to the physical laws she/he is part of..

    Although we have a choice to think about having ten arms we do not have the choice to actually have ten arms as we were not born that way .

    Sometimes we are phyiscally caught up in the wheel of time, seeming like we have no choices because we are thinking so fast.. but if you slow things down you can find yourself in a state of indecision where it is 'you' or 'i' alone who can determine the action/s to come.

    But for sure - what is done is done.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dlrow
    A simple test to see if everything is absolutley determined is as follows;

    'slow' yourself down and get your mind to focus alot on one action, for instance - clenching your fist into a ball. Now look at your fist and tell yourself that you will open your fist in 5 seconds (as a measurment of your free choice).

    So here we have a 'predetermined' plan of action but it was actually created by you.

    During those 5 seconds you had the same ammount of 'free will' to open it before the 5 seconds was up or to hold the fist longer than the 5 seconds.

    Ofcourse, due to the natural laws of physics and nature your hand will open eventually but for certain we do (as humans especially) have a large ammount of power over the determination of what we can naturally effect..

    It seems 'free will' or 'choice' is a natural development in the mind given to life, humans in particular have a large ammount of control over one's own actions yet one is bound to the physical laws she/he is part of..

    Although we have a choice to think about having ten arms we do not have the choice to actually have ten arms as we were not born that way .

    Sometimes we are phyiscally caught up in the wheel of time, seeming like we have no choices because we are thinking so fast.. but if you slow things down you can find yourself in a state of indecision where it is 'you' or 'i' alone who can determine the action/s to come.

    But for sure - what is done is done.
    If everything is predetermined then there is no way you could do a test to test your free will because in a determined universe your test to test your free will has already been determined. Otherwise, it has already been written in the code of time what will happen during the test and it has already been determined what will occur at the outcome. You just have to follow along like good little slaves and do whatever time tells you to do without even knowing it.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
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  8. #7  
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    i kinda dig into the 'determined' universe too,,,

    its hard to say whether free will exists or not until the complexities of the only place know to enforce it is understood: Brain

    personally, the day true Artificial intelligence begins, would be the day you can plausibly question the existence/lack of free will
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  9. #8  
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    I feel compelled to say that there is no such thing as predetermination.
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  10. #9 Re: the universe is completely determined 
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    Quote Originally Posted by marine(uc)
    I first had this idea when i was about 6, that everything will happenin in complete order, and i want to know if you guys think my theory is correct.

    okay so my idea is that if i went back 5 years, that everything would completely play out the exact same (if i was watching invisibly making no interactions at all in the universe in any way). because it would be like recording my life and watching it nothing would change because the old me from 5 years ago wouldn't have any different thoughts. because in the end what we do is based on the world around us and how our mind reacts to it, and there would be no way with no changes in the universe that i would get new thoughts.

    now lets just say im correct and yah, me 5 years ago doesnt do a single thing different. or anybody for that matter. wouldn't that mean that just since our thoughts and actions don't just randomly get switched, that our entire life is pre-determined and like going in the past, the future would play out the exact way it's going to play out??

    Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen

    BUT you can't get into that line of thought, because even thought it is chosen.. it doesn't matter, it's still you choosing them. and this future is based on what you do. You can't just sit around thinking it will be done for you, or you won't do anythin and that'd be future... i just try not to think about this theory lol.
    Well on the psychological level Frued did have a theory about this, I forget what its called. He suggested that every thought, every action is the product of your past, basicly, freewill doesnt exist. I think it is true for some people who live in a constant state of thought and reaction, but theres a way out of that. You can step back and observe your conditioned mind structure through a state of quiet minded, non judging awarness. This way you have the ability to step back and observe your reactions to situations, automatic unconscious thoughts, emotions instead of being a complete product of them. I think this is the way of freewill.
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  11. #10 Re: the universe is completely determined 
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    Quote Originally Posted by marine(uc)
    Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen
    Nihilism does not necessarily follow determinism. Combined they form fatalism, the belief that we have no control over our future.

    This from wiki on Spinoza:

    "Spinoza was a thoroughgoing determinist who held that absolutely everything that happens occurs through the operation of necessity. For him, even human behaviour is fully determined, with freedom being our capacity to know we are determined and to understand why we act as we do. So freedom is not the possibility to say "no" to what happens to us but the possibility to say "yes" and fully understand why things should necessarily happen that way."

    Maybe this article is something you'll enjoy Marine:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

    Good luck on your metaphysical pursuit!
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    There is more than one time dimension.
    There is no proof for that hypotheses, but most scientists who write in popular sciense magazines think it could exist. And as far as I know it could exist. That doesn`t mean it is a reality.
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    Id like to say no (as i hate to believe that choices that i have made were pre-empted) but based on my experiences with astrology and its accuracy i would have to say yes. :x
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    Quote Originally Posted by marine(uc)
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    There is mroe than one time dimension.
    Okay, every dimension has it's own pre-determination.
    Physics certainly disagrees with you and there are even arguments that this is impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime
    Max Tegmark expands on the preceding argument in the following anthropic manner.[5] If the number of time dimensions differed from 1, the behavior of physical systems could not be predicted reliably from knowledge of the relevant partial differential equations. In such a universe, intelligent life capable of manipulating technology could not emerge. In addition, Tegmark maintains that protons and electrons would be unstable in a universe with more than one time dimension, as they can decay into more massive particles (this is not a problem if the temperature is sufficiently low). If N>3, Ehrenfest's above argument holds; atoms as we know them (and probably more complex structures as well) could not exist. If N<3, gravitation of any kind becomes problematic, and the universe is probably too simple to contain observers. For example, nerves must intersect and cannot overlap.

    In general, it is not clear how physical laws could operate if the number of time dimensions T differed from 1. If T>1, individual subatomic particles, which decay after a fixed period, would not have much predictability, because time-like geodesics would not be necessarily maximal.[6] N=1 and T=3 has the peculiar property that that the speed of light in a vacuum is a lower bound on the velocity of matter. Hence anthropic arguments rule out all cases except 3 spatial and 1 temporal dimensions—the description of the world in which we live.

    What is perhaps more relevant to the original topic of this thread is that even though quantum physics utterly demolishes determinism there is one interpretation that restores the mathematical determination of quantum physics. This is Everett's Many Worlds interpretation. The point is that in order to restore the mathematical determinism to modern physics you have to posit that uncountable new universes are born every second. But turned around this is exactly how we view a non-deterministic universe, where at every point in time there is a branching into all the very real possibible futures, and thus I believe that Everrett's Many Worlds interpretation is really a final proof that the deterministic world view is utterly dead.
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    I think if you were to go back in time, the past would play out the same no matter what. There wouldn't be a choice for someone to do something different. Do you sit around thinking about not going to work, not simply to rest, but to throw off an invisible-yet-present future self who has you under the microscope?

    The decisions we make (even the tough ones) would be made the same. People tend to say, "If I could go back in time, I'd change that". But the question you've stated isn't whether they want to change their past, simply to see if you would make the same decision under the same circumstances.
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    i think there would have to be endless combinations that time could play out
    you would go back to the time you wanted and then your life would just start right there
    and then your life would just follow one of the paths gradualy spreading away from your previos one like a tree the new life would be almost the same at first and then gradualy you would make different desicions and your life would change and be different
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  17. #16  
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    I also think that determinism is true, i WANT to believe othervice. But id rather be burnt by truth and live in painfull knowledge. Than live in the gentle arms of ignorance and denial.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    I also think that determinism is true, i WANT to believe othervice. But id rather be burnt by truth and live in painfull knowledge. Than live in the gentle arms of ignorance and denial.
    Hmmm... quite the opposite of many physicists who wanted determinism to be true or thought that it should be true, but found that the scientific evidence was against it.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    I also think that determinism is true, i WANT to believe othervice. But id rather be burnt by truth and live in painfull knowledge. Than live in the gentle arms of ignorance and denial.
    Hmmm... quite the opposite of many physicists who wanted determinism to be true or thought that it should be true, but found that the scientific evidence was against it.
    In nature, one evolves by being faced with opposition. Its also the same on a mental level. A person that has had alot more problems and tough times will in my opinion have more empathy and understanding later in life.

    What im trying to say is, that we must find truth no matter how hard and painfull it may turn out. In the opposite lair we have, in my opinion the fundemental religious people and fanatics who refuse to believe in evolution and such. I find it a step backwards in our progress towards the future. If these people had ultimate power we would still be hunting our food with spears and rocks.

    Not trying to turn this into a religious debate i merely used it as an example.

    To be honest though, i find determinism depressing but our feelings are still real allthough our choises arent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    To be honest though, i find determinism depressing but our feelings are still real allthough our choises arent
    Why would determinism be depressing. What the existentialists thought is that it is free will that is depressing.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    I also think that determinism is true, i WANT to believe othervice. But id rather be burnt by truth and live in painfull knowledge. Than live in the gentle arms of ignorance and denial.
    man determinism is dead get over it,
    I used to think the same way as Marine but reality is: some things are out of hand forever and for sure...u cannot question the uncertainty principle, you cannot question logical paradoxes, logic is above all...
    in a matter of fact Marine is right in her description but she missed one condition: for everything to be just the same the system she's considering has to be FINITE, because if it's infinite than there will always be random parameters that are out of hand and thus one might take a different decision...
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  22. #21 Re: the universe is completely determined 
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    Quote Originally Posted by marine(uc)
    I first had this idea when i was about 6, that everything will happenin in complete order, and i want to know if you guys think my theory is correct.

    okay so my idea is that if i went back 5 years, that everything would completely play out the exact same (if i was watching invisibly making no interactions at all in the universe in any way). because it would be like recording my life and watching it nothing would change because the old me from 5 years ago wouldn't have any different thoughts. because in the end what we do is based on the world around us and how our mind reacts to it, and there would be no way with no changes in the universe that i would get new thoughts.

    now lets just say im correct and yah, me 5 years ago doesnt do a single thing different. or anybody for that matter. wouldn't that mean that just since our thoughts and actions don't just randomly get switched, that our entire life is pre-determined and like going in the past, the future would play out the exact way it's going to play out??

    Now i had gotten into this with myself and thought, if everything is going to happen the same.. whats the point in doin anythin, its already gonna be chosen

    BUT you can't get into that line of thought, because even thought it is chosen.. it doesn't matter, it's still you choosing them. and this future is based on what you do. You can't just sit around thinking it will be done for you, or you won't do anythin and that'd be future... i just try not to think about this theory lol.
    Yes, I thought the same way you did, also at a very young age (I think these 'revelations' happens at roughly the same time for certain people).

    I tried to beat destiny by doing unexpected things, like flapping my arms totally randomly, but then I thought that if I did beat destiny then it wouldn't be cool at all, I would feel lost. I do believe that there is a destiny, and I like the idea of being where I am supposed to be.

    But I also believe that destiny can be changed. Just like a big boat has a small wheel to change the direction of the boat, so can our entire destiny be changed using small efforts.

    I don't think that the universe is predetermined the way that science seems to think, but some things are bound to happen while other things might be changed. It's all up to the great ruler.
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  23. #22  
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    pre-destination and free will is so much broad.....if we consider free will 1st we realize that it means ability for one to do what he/she wants. Now if I decide to fly I will find out that I cannot and that is already a restriction against my will and it means I have no free will. But I also have to realize that the universe is built base on subtle laws that govern my existence alongside.

    Now dose it then mean that due to gravity if I jump a 1000times and fall a 1000times then it is predetermined that I must fall? It would not be generally correct if I say its predestination because I am of the universe and must obey its laws.

    I can only say that I have no free will when certain decisions cannot be made although they don't contradict nature.

    And I can only say everything is predetermined if I push a pen in a 1000ways and there seem to be only one outcome!

    But it would be wrong to say that there is no predestination if the later happens and I say its due to gravity,in other words I cannot live my life in different ways and always die at same place and I'd say is because I am still me and the number of ways doesn't matter!
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    Our visitors can still learn something!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    merumario, please check the date on a threads last post before replying. You are the arch-necromancer....
    Be fair. He couldn't help it. From the moment the thread was created it was predetermined that he would post that ...
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    I don't if there is something relevant to add or the issue has taken a turn. This thread was crap from the beginning, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It can't be just me (hopefully), does anyone else find necrothreads annoying?
    I don't think they are necessarily a bad thing, but probably the best answer is to start a new thread on the topic.
    Looking back at necrothreads, I do think it is fair comment that, very often, the individuals who start them are not the best posters!
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    Very funny strange! But could be true!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    It can't be just me (hopefully), does anyone else find necrothreads annoying?
    I sure do...especially if they are long, meaning I need to reread them in their entirety for context despite more the original posters being long gone.
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    I kinda like them.
    Sometimes, seeing the old post of current posters is enlightening.

    Like an echo emanating from a deep dark chasm, sometimes, without noting the dates, I have responded to posters who are long gone.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    merumario, please check the date on a threads last post before replying. You are the arch-necromancer....
    +1 for using the word arch.

    Also... its frightening to see things youve posted in the past. I'm beginning to suspect I may have multiple personality disorder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    Also... its frightening to see things youve posted in the past. I'm beginning to suspect I may have multiple personality disorder.
    Bold: Does not follow.
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    You would think I would have thought of that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I feel compelled to say that there is no such thing as predetermination.
    Ditto.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    When someone says "ditto" I always think of "Blazing Saddles"

    Ditto Blazing Saddles! - YouTube

    Guess I watched it at an impressionable age...
    and I think of "Ghost"

    Ghost the movie - YouTube

    damn that made me cry...I am so sentimental!
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