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Thread: DARK MATTER

  1. #1 DARK MATTER 
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    Most everyone should know that Fritz Zwicky discovered the mysterious dark matter (MDM). This was the result of unexplained galaxy velocities that exceeded the estimated masses of these galaxies. So, what is the answer?
    The establishment astronomers have not provided one. I will offer an explanation for the reason why but first I will go to the spiral galaxy problem that is similar in nature.

    Vera Rubin and her partners researched spiral galaxies and found that the spiral structures in the spiral galaxies did not conform to the virial theorem where the velocities should fall off as the distances of the spiral structures increased from the central nucleus. This obviously is similar to the problem within the galaxy clusters. The conclusion, of course is that there is some mysterious dark matter that exists at the outer perimeter of these spirals.

    I believe that I have the solution to this problem and the solution is that the MDM does not exist! That is why it is unobservable. This is how I would explain this puzzle:

    Solar and star flares are common in all stars throughout the Universe. This flaring activity results when impacting bodies such as meteoroids, comets and on rare occasions, asteroids (I know this may start another debate on the cause of flares but I am sure I am right) create explosions. The oxides in these bodies break down and release their oxygen and in this hydrogen environment and high temperature, this results in an obvious explosion. These flares strip the electrons off of the elements involved (refer to the S&T article in the 1989 June issue on page 591) such as iron, sulfur and oxygen and leave only the two inner electrons. Some of these free electrons and positive ions are then blasted out into space where the slower positive ions are captured in the inner portions of the spirals while the much higher velocity electrons are captured in the outer hydrogen gas perimeter that surrounds the galaxies to create negative hydrogen ions (two electrons). There may not be many captured but enough to create an attraction between the negative ions and the inner positive ions to give a boost to the gravitational force and create the illusion that more mass is present. Therefore, the MDM does not exist. That is why there is no observation or detection of more mass.

    In the clusters, this ionic hydrogen gas collects in the central region of the clusters and acts as a glue to be attracted from all sides by the galaxies and this weak electric force that enhances the gravitational force and creates the same illusion of greater mass. Obviously then, this mass does not exist.
    There has been x-ray activity observed in the central regions of these clusters that is probably the result of a preponderance of ionic electron activity and a small quantity of nuclei in these central regions. This is proof that there is some matter present,
    but this is not additional matter in the universe.
    The weak additional electric charges (coulomb force) contributes to the gravitional force enhancement.

    You may wonder how this electron cloud can exist because of their mutual repulsion but this central region is continually being fed these free electrons from all the surrounding galaxies and their star flaring activity. Electrons approaching each other from all sides will stop centrally because of their mutual repulsion. Electrons will be escaping this region but are being replenished continually.

    At the same time the galaxies being deficient in electrons are positivily charged and pull on these central electron clouds.This being done from all directions.
    In other words, galaxies pulling on these clouds from opposite directions stabalize their presence in these clusters.

    Cosmo


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  3. #2  
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    If dark matter doen't exist how would you explain the gravitational lensing observed as its effects?


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    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    If dark matter doen't exist how would you explain the gravitational lensing observed as its effects?
    Gravitational lensing is similar to the observation of light passing the Sun that supposedly confirmed Einsteins 'curvature of space'.
    So this lensing is caused by thr galaxy clusters and not dark matter.

    Cosmo
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    Wouldn't there be a rather large seperation between ions? How large could be electrostatic forces be between singular ions seperated by such large distances?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Is this in any way related to the question?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dishmaster
    Is this in any way related to the question?
    He is attributing the illusion of extra mass, currently explained by dark matter (not an illusion in this view), to electrostatic forces.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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  8. #7 Re: DARK MATTER 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Most everyone should know that Fritz Zwicky discovered the mysterious dark matter (MDM). This was the result of unexplained galaxy velocities that exceeded the estimated masses of these galaxies. So, what is the answer?
    The establishment astronomers have not provided one. I will offer an explanation for the reason why but first I will go to the spiral galaxy problem that is similar in nature.

    Vera Rubin and her partners researched spiral galaxies and found that the spiral structures in the spiral galaxies did not conform to the virial theorem where the velocities should fall off as the distances of the spiral structures increased from the central nucleus. This obviously is similar to the problem within the galaxy clusters. The conclusion, of course is that there is some mysterious dark matter that exists at the outer perimeter of these spirals.

    I believe that I have the solution to this problem and the solution is that the MDM does not exist! That is why it is unobservable. This is how I would explain this puzzle:

    Solar and star flares are common in all stars throughout the Universe. This flaring activity results when impacting bodies such as meteoroids, comets and on rare occasions, asteroids (I know this may start another debate on the cause of flares but I am sure I am right) create explosions. The oxides in these bodies break down and release their oxygen and in this hydrogen environment and high temperature, this results in an obvious explosion. These flares strip the electrons off of the elements involved (refer to the S&T article in the 1989 June issue on page 591) such as iron, sulfur and oxygen and leave only the two inner electrons. Some of these free electrons and positive ions are then blasted out into space where the slower positive ions are captured in the inner portions of the spirals while the much higher velocity electrons are captured in the outer hydrogen gas perimeter that surrounds the galaxies to create negative hydrogen ions (two electrons). There may not be many captured but enough to create an attraction between the negative ions and the inner positive ions to give a boost to the gravitational force and create the illusion that more mass is present. Therefore, the MDM does not exist. That is why there is no observation or detection of more mass.

    In the clusters, this ionic hydrogen gas collects in the central region of the clusters and acts as a glue to be attracted from all sides by the galaxies and this weak electric force that enhances the gravitational force and creates the same illusion of greater mass. Obviously then, this mass does not exist.
    There has been x-ray activity observed in the central regions of these clusters that is probably the result of a preponderance of ionic electron activity and a small quantity of nuclei in these central regions. This is proof that there is some matter present,
    but this is not additional matter in the universe.
    The weak additional electric charges (coulomb force) contributes to the gravitional force enhancement.

    You may wonder how this electron cloud can exist because of their mutual repulsion but this central region is continually being fed these free electrons from all the surrounding galaxies and their star flaring activity. Electrons approaching each other from all sides will stop centrally because of their mutual repulsion. Electrons will be escaping this region but are being replenished continually.

    At the same time the galaxies being deficient in electrons are positivily charged and pull on these central electron clouds.This being done from all directions.
    In other words, galaxies pulling on these clouds from opposite directions stabalize their presence in these clusters.

    Cosmo
    The proof of existence of Dark Matter is quite simple. You total up the mass of the entire galaxy( only things that you see). then consider the mass at the centre of the galaxy. now, choose any star in the galaxy and neglect all other stars. You have the star revolving about the centre of mass of the (galaxy minus star) system. Now calculate the period of revolution of the star using kepler's 3rd law. Then if you actually observe the period, you find that it is less than the calculated value. this is b'cos you have not considered some mass that exists in the galaxy, but you cannot see it. this proves the existence of dark matter.
    Beyond Equations,

    Pritish
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    If dark matter doen't exist how would you explain the gravitational lensing observed as its effects?
    Gravitational lensing is similar to the observation of light passing the Sun that supposedly confirmed Einsteins 'curvature of space'.
    So this lensing is caused by thr galaxy clusters and not dark matter.

    Cosmo
    Dark Matter also has an effect on our reality gravitational wise. Any gravitational body can cause gravitational lensing.
    "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt" - Bertrand Russell
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  10. #9  
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    this proves the existence of dark matter.
    I am sorry, but this does not prove dark matter, it only posts a problem to which dark matter is but one possible explanation (albeit the most likely).
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  11. #10 Re: DARK MATTER 
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    You asked me, in another thread, to take a look at your post here and then comment.
    Firstly, in reference to my earlier complaints, I thought this time you explained everything quite clearly. Of course with such a radical explanation for a cosmological problem, a simple explanation raises many more questions (and observations). Here are some of mine:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Solar and star flares are common in all stars throughout the Universe. This flaring activity results when impacting bodies such as meteoroids, comets and on rare occasions, asteroids (I know this may start another debate on the cause of flares but I am sure I am right) create explosions.
    I'm going to take this basic hypothesis of yours as read, for the moment. I may return to it. You are aware it is not well supported by either observation or theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Some of these free electrons and positive ions are then blasted out into space where the slower positive ions are captured in the inner portions of the spirals while the much higher velocity electrons are captured in the outer hydrogen gas perimeter that surrounds the galaxies to create negative hydrogen ions (two electrons).
    We have done a lot of investigation of the solar wind. Can you demonstrate, from published data, that this dichotomy of velocities is real?
    Secondly, why do the ions get captured in the inner portion of the galaxies? Why would the eletrons only be captured in the outer portions? I see - and you offer - no mechanism by which this would occur.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    There may not be many captured but enough to create an attraction between the negative ions and the inner positive ions to give a boost to the gravitational force and create the illusion that more mass is present.
    What is doing the capturing in the inner part of the galaxy? Why would the attraction between the charged particles, which is effecting the hydrogen clouds in the outer part of the spiral, speed up the stars? Why would this attraction not lead to the inward movement of the clouds? Something that is not occuring.
    I think that may be enough to be going onwards. I understand the structure of your argument, but at the moment I find it unconvincing. Perhaps your response will change that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Wouldn't there be a rather large seperation between ions? How large could be electrostatic forces be between singular ions seperated by such large distances?
    You should know that the electrostatic forces are 10^36 times stronger than gravity. So it would not take too many of these particles at those distances to increase gravity by 10.

    Cosmo
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  13. #12 Re: DARK MATTER 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamal
    The proof of existence of Dark Matter is quite simple. You total up the mass of the entire galaxy( only things that you see). then consider the mass at the centre of the galaxy. now, choose any star in the galaxy and neglect all other stars. You have the star revolving about the centre of mass of the (galaxy minus star) system. Now calculate the period of revolution of the star using kepler's 3rd law. Then if you actually observe the period, you find that it is less than the calculated value. this is b'cos you have not considered some mass that exists in the galaxy, but you cannot see it. this proves the existence of dark matter.
    The mass of stars and galaxies was determined by the 'luminosity' function and used to determine the velocoties of the galaxies.

    What I say here above is that the centers of these clusters are devoid of matter.
    However this DM is detected by x-rays. So you know that there is some mass there.

    All clusters may not have empty central regions. Most may have giant elliptical galaxies.
    Electrons are blasted out in all directions. So even here in the central regions with the ellipticals, these electrons wouls collect to create a negative central region while the outer galaxies would acquire positive charges due to their net loss of electrons.

    Cosmo
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Wouldn't there be a rather large seperation between ions? How large could be electrostatic forces be between singular ions seperated by such large distances?
    You should know that the electrostatic forces are 10^36 times stronger than gravity. So it would not take too many of these particles at those distances to increase gravity by 10.

    Cosmo
    Of course, how silly of me!

    Then another question: When an equal force is applied to an electron and a proton the electron would be moving faster (less mass), but when an equal force is applied to both at the other point they would come to a stop next to each other again. How would they seperate?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    You asked me, in another thread, to take a look
    at your post here and then comment.
    Firstly, in reference to my earlier complaints, I thought this time
    you explained everything quite clearly. Of course with such a
    radical explanation for a cosmological problem, a simple explanation
    raises many more questions (and observations). Here are some of mine:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Solar and star flares are common in all stars
    throughout the Universe. This flaring activity results when
    impacting bodies such as meteoroids, comets and on rare occasions,
    asteroids (I know this may start another debate on the cause of
    flares but I am sure I am right) create explosions.
    I'm going to take this basic hypothesis of yours as read, for the
    moment. I may return to it. You are aware it is not well supported
    by either observation or theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Some of these free electrons and positive ions are
    then blasted out into space where the slower positive ions are
    captured in the inner portions of the spirals while the much higher
    velocity electrons are captured in the outer hydrogen gas perimeter
    that surrounds the galaxies to create negative hydrogen ions (two
    electrons).
    We have done a lot of investigation of the solar wind. Can you
    demonstrate, from published data, that this dichotomy of velocities
    is real?
    Secondly, why do the ions get captured in the inner portion of the
    galaxies? Why would the eletrons only be captured in the outer
    portions? I see - and you offer - no mechanism by which this would
    occur.
    There is no published data as far as I know. What I write makes sense
    regarding these comparitive velocities.
    I have taken into account that the electrons already have very high
    velocities in relation the the nuclei that they were stripped from.
    Secondly, the explosion would propel the electrons out of the Sun at
    very high velocities in comparision to the nuclei that are much much
    heavier than the electrons.
    So the comparative ratio of these velocities would cause the nuclei
    to move a short distance before being captured. While on the other
    hand, the high velocity electrons would leave the inner portions of
    the spiral structures to be captured in the 'outer' gases to form
    the negative hydrogen ions.
    Also, a larger number of these free electrons would leave the galaxy
    entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    There may not be many captured but enough to create an attraction
    between the negative ions and the inner positive ions to give a
    boost to the gravitational force and create the illusion that more
    mass is present.
    {quote]
    What is doing the capturing in the inner part of the galaxy? Why
    would the attraction between the charged particles, which is
    effecting the hydrogen clouds in the outer part of the
    spiral, speed up the stars? Why would this attraction not
    lead to the inward movement of the clouds? Something that is not
    occuring.
    The slow nuclei would be easily captured by the inner spiral stars,
    planetary bodies and gases.

    The mass in the galaxies conforms to the virial theorum up to the
    spiral structure inner and then it levels off to the outer perimeters..
    This is not necassarily true of all spirals. Especially the two armed
    spirals IMO.

    I think that may be enough to be going onwards. I understand the
    structure of your argument, but at the moment I find it
    unconvincing. Perhaps your response will change that.
    Well, separated electric charges will be attempting to rejoin
    again with any positive charges. So this coulomb attraction
    enhances the gravitational attraction to create the illusion of
    more mass.
    The quoted Sky and Tel. magazine in the above article is my source
    for this hypothesis.

    Cosmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Wouldn't there be a rather large seperation between ions? How large could be electrostatic forces be between singular ions seperated by such large distances?
    You should know that the electrostatic forces are 10^36 times stronger than gravity. So it would not take too many of these particles at those distances to increase gravity by 10.

    Cosmo
    Of course, how silly of me!

    Then another question: When an equal force is applied to an electron and a proton the electron would be moving faster (less mass), but when an equal force is applied to both at the other point they would come to a stop next to each other again. How would they seperate?
    I do not quite understand your question, but if this opposite force causes the two to bind as in a neutron, then they would separate as a neutron decays.
    My solution for the decaying of a neutron is that these particles have spins. The electrons attachment to the proton creates two magnetic fields that separate the particles since they spin in the same direction, but have opposite charges that create opposing magnetic fields plus the electrons small orbital momentum resulting from the attachment to the proton.

    Cosmo
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    Can this tidbit of info I found resolve this matter properly? I have seen many instances where a small tweak in the understanding of general relativity and mathematics removes the need for Dark Matter without over complicating things as much as Dark Matter does

    General Relativity Resolves Galactic Rotation Without Exotic Dark Matter

    A galaxy is modeled as a stationary axially symmetric pressure-free fluid in general relativity. For the weak gravitational fields under consideration, the field equations and the equations of motion ultimately lead to one linear and one nonlinear equation relating the angular velocity to the fluid density. It is shown that the rotation curves for the Milky Way, NGC 3031, NGC 3198 and NGC 7331 are consistent with the mass density distributions of the visible matter concentrated in flattened disks. Thus the need for a massive halo of exotic dark matter is removed. For these galaxies we determine the mass density for the luminous threshold as 10^{-21.75} kg.m$^{-3}.

    http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0507619
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  18. #17  
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    I've always wondered if the gravitational models that predict dark matter take into account the galaxy's geometry, or just base themselves on the distance between an outer star and the center of the galaxy's mass.

    A fluid has surface tension. I often wonder if the spiral arms exert more of an effect on the stars within them than the galaxy core does. The speed they're traveling at brings to mind the effect of the end of a whip or chain mace moving faster toward the handle.
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    Oops. Repeated myself.
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  20. #19  
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    General Relativity Resolves Galactic Rotation Without Exotic Dark Matter
    Actually, I've read that it explains many properties of dark energy and dark matter and explains their role in galaxy shaping and formation of clusters.
    Beyond Equations,

    Pritish
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperNatendo
    Can this tidbit of info I found resolve this matter properly? I have seen many instances where a small tweak in the understanding of general relativity and mathematics removes the need for Dark Matter without over complicating things as much as Dark Matter does

    General Relativity Resolves Galactic Rotation Without Exotic Dark Matter

    A galaxy is modeled as a stationary axially symmetric pressure-free fluid in general relativity. For the weak gravitational fields under consideration, the field equations and the equations of motion ultimately lead to one linear and one nonlinear equation relating the angular velocity to the fluid density. It is shown that the rotation curves for the Milky Way, NGC 3031, NGC 3198 and NGC 7331 are consistent with the mass density distributions of the visible matter concentrated in flattened disks. Thus the need for a massive halo of exotic dark matter is removed. For these galaxies we determine the mass density for the luminous threshold as 10^{-21.75} kg.m$^{-3}.



    http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0507619
    I prefer the 'Virial Theorum' to this explanation you provided.
    It is easier to understand and conforms to the planetary bodies as well as the spiral galaxies.

    Cosmo
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    If a paper from three years ago had it right, then we would no longer be talking about dark matter. Papers get reviewed and the reviews are not hyperlinked.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch2008
    If a paper from three years ago had it right, then we would no longer be talking about dark matter. Papers get reviewed and the reviews are not hyperlinked.
    Their are all kinds of papers on the BBT and IMO, it has no credibilty.

    Cosmo
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    What a bunch of Emo's.

    Everything is , like dark and stuff?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene
    What a bunch of Emo's.

    Everything is , like dark and stuff?
    The dark matter problem should be labeled Mysterious Dark Matter to differentiate it from the ordinary DM such as the planets, other such smaller bodies and also include the intergalactic space particles like the molecules, star dust and regular gases.

    This ODM accounts for about one percent of the total. The rest is the 'luminous' matter like the stars.

    The MDM is presumed to account for about 10-20% of the total mass but as I have posted above, it does not exist because this MDM is 'separated electric charges' that enhance the ODM gravitational force.

    So, IMO, the stars account for 99% of the univeres mass.

    Cosmo
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