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  1. #1 monkeys learning how to speak 
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    If monkeys learnt how to speak, sometime in the future, and also aquired basic arithmetic skills, would the scientific community feel threatened, as a species?

    Would the scientific community feel pressured to adopt a new science and number system, one more advanced?


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    monkeys can already use human sign language. other than that, you don't make any sense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    monkeys can already use human sign language. other than that, you don't make any sense.
    He makes perfect sense, even if it's highly unlikely that the scenario he spoke of would ever happen. I don't think the intelligence of not monkeys, but more likely the higher apes, would every be a threat to humans. The only animals to learn human language or arithmetic (hypothetically speaking of course) would be ones trained by humans, and I don't see humans purposely creating intelligent animals that would be a threat (though people have done awfully crazy things). In any case, the answer to this question will never need to be seriously considered.
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    What if we became a threat to aliens?

    What if, and I know this sounds a little out there, but what if we were able to decipher an alien science and became, potentially, a threat to them?

    Even to really offer a cautious thought, what if a G.U.T. represented a direct threat to any potential alien presence in this solar system?
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  6. #5 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by streamSystems
    If monkeys learnt how to speak, sometime in the future, and also aquired basic arithmetic skills, would the scientific community feel threatened, as a species?
    1. The scientific community isn't a species.
    2. Even if it were it would be fascinated, not threatened by such a development.
    3. Creationists would feel threatened, since this would argue for the close relationship twixt man and monkey, but that's another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    monkeys can already use human sign language
    No. Not that I am aware of. Apes, yes. Monkeys, no. Monkeys are a very succesful type of primate. The apes, in contrast, are a pretty dismal failure, with one notable exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamSystems
    Even to really offer a cautious thought, what if a G.U.T. represented a direct threat to any potential alien presence in this solar system?
    What if green icicles were shown to harbour intelligent anagrams with the potential to make on-line shopping a more ergonomical experience? I mean, let's ask all the really important questions, why don't we.
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    My question and your answer may become relevant in the not too distant future.

    I agree with you, ophiolite, but I am just getting evidence, support, for my actual sentiment (that I did not directly spell out), which you seem to support.
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  8. #7 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by streamSystems
    If monkeys learnt how to speak, sometime in the future, and also aquired basic arithmetic skills, would the scientific community feel threatened, as a species?
    1. The scientific community isn't a species.
    2. Even if it were it would be fascinated, not threatened by such a development.
    3. Creationists would feel threatened, since this would argue for the close relationship twixt man and monkey, but that's another story.

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    monkeys can already use human sign language
    No. Not that I am aware of. Apes, yes. Monkeys, no. Monkeys are a very succesful type of primate. The apes, in contrast, are a pretty dismal failure, with one notable exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by StreamSystems
    Even to really offer a cautious thought, what if a G.U.T. represented a direct threat to any potential alien presence in this solar system?
    What if green icicles were shown to harbour intelligent anagrams with the potential to make on-line shopping a more ergonomical experience? I mean, let's ask all the really important questions, why don't we.
    Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement. There was another study were one monkey was taught to open a can of food, the monkey that observered this monkey did not copy and tried to open the can the regular way (bashing it). Other than humans animals do not have the ability yet ti think 'outside the box', they don't need to. It is a fact that their brain capacity is not able to emcompass what exactly ours can. Dolphins are the next probable species to become clever as theur E.Q is 5, where human's are 7. Ourangatans have 4.

    But to answer your question sS, like everything if something threatens another then yes they will work harder, but I'm not sure how much animal science will threaten us. But it is a fact that any threat accelerates science, just look at the cold war for instance, or any war for that matter.
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    let's make one thing clear : humans, chimps, gorillas, orang utangs and gibbons are apes - all other primates are either monkeys or lemur-like primates

    only some types of ape have shown any ability towards applying human language concepts
    as far as i'm aware no monkeys ever have
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    let's make one thing clear : humans, chimps, gorillas, orang utangs and gibbons are apes - all other primates are either monkeys or lemur-like primates

    only some types of ape have shown any ability towards applying human language concepts
    as far as i'm aware no monkeys ever have
    I refer you to my post in response to Ophiolite in a thread below.

    Strictly speaking, all apes are Old World monkeys: that's one thing that is taxonomically clear.
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    maybe so, but if you spread your net too broadly then your statements ultimately become pretty meaningless
    e.g. tetrapods master human language

    when i mean apes, i prefer to refer to them as apes rather than the more inclusive but less meaningful old world monkeys or monkeys
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  12. #11 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement. There was another study were one monkey was taught to open a can of food, the monkey that observered this monkey did not copy and tried to open the can the regular way (bashing it). Other than humans animals do not have the ability yet ti think 'outside the box', they don't need to. It is a fact that their brain capacity is not able to emcompass what exactly ours can. Dolphins are the next probable species to become clever as theur E.Q is 5, where human's are 7. Ourangatans have 4.
    I don't know. If you've read some of the accounts of Koko's handlers, and believe them, Koko seems to be able to "think outside the box" a bit. And she's just an average gorilla. They seem to have reasonable intelligence, problem-solving, abstract thinking, understand the concept of death, even humor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    maybe so, but if you spread your net too broadly then your statements ultimately become pretty meaningless
    e.g. tetrapods master human language

    when i mean apes, i prefer to refer to them as apes rather than the more inclusive but less meaningful old world monkeys or monkeys
    And 'apes' is a well formed clade, no problem with that. But there's no point saying "apes aren't monkeys" unless you're being very clear about which way you're using these words (ie. inaccurately, for some other practical purpose).
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    for the record, i was using the vernacular (and paraphyletic) meaning of monkeys, excluding apes
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    In the event of a global natural crisis that we find ourselves completely unprepared for, yet the animal kingdom already adapted to and ready for, if the numbers of humanity began to dwindle owing to whatever, internal conflict, whatever, yet nature strengthened itself, how would scientists begin to record our relationship with nature and the essential feature that had us go wrong: would it be our employment of a nature-incompatible science and technology. Because, technically, in a major natural crisis, we would seem to suffer the greatest blow , as though defeated by the animal kingdom.
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    could you rewrite that in plain english ?
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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  17. #16 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement. There was another study were one monkey was taught to open a can of food, the monkey that observered this monkey did not copy and tried to open the can the regular way (bashing it). Other than humans animals do not have the ability yet ti think 'outside the box', they don't need to. It is a fact that their brain capacity is not able to emcompass what exactly ours can. Dolphins are the next probable species to become clever as theur E.Q is 5, where human's are 7. Ourangatans have 4.
    I don't know. If you've read some of the accounts of Koko's handlers, and believe them, Koko seems to be able to "think outside the box" a bit. And she's just an average gorilla. They seem to have reasonable intelligence, problem-solving, abstract thinking, understand the concept of death, even humor.
    So perhaps with reinforcement they could be really clever. Just imagine though if there were no such thing as school.
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    dont forget the bonobo:
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    You are correct, there was an error of spelling. It should have gone as follows:

    In the event of a global natural crisis that we find ourselves completely unprepared for, yet the animal kingdom already adapted to and ready for, if the numbers of humanity began to dwindle owing to whatever, internal conflict, whatever, yet nature strengthened itself, how would scientists begin to record our relationship with nature and the essential feature that had us go wrong: would it be our LACK OF employment of a nature-compatible science and technology. Because, technically, in a major natural crisis, we would seem to suffer the greatest blow, as though defeated by the animal kingdom, by comparison of numbers..........and ask anyone who mines mines in Africa, diamond mines, and so on, that you have to watch your back in regard to the wildlife in competition for food and resources. Sure, we don't all live in Africa, but in the advent of a major conflict that use magnetic pulse weapons disabling all computer equipment, the chances of a future generation knowing how to survive in what would be a new frontier for them would be minimal.

    What we need is technology that is "immune", computers and so on, immune to electromagnetic pulse/surge weapons. Better still, a science that can allow such a technology to become available.
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  20. #19 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement.
    Koko was a gorilla. Washoe was a chimpanzee. I remain unaware of any monkey using sign language. Perhaps you can tell me of the relevant study.
    As to the isuse of learning language through reinforcement, the last time I looked, that's how it worked with humans.
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  21. #20 Re: monkeys learning how to speak 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement.
    Koko was a gorilla. Washoe was a chimpanzee. I remain unaware of any monkey using sign language. Perhaps you can tell me of the relevant study.
    As to the isuse of learning language through reinforcement, the last time I looked, that's how it worked with humans.
    I was recalling the monkeys that I studied in Animal cognition of psychology, a few years back. Monkeys, gorillas, ourangatans, yada yada same group (primates).

    There is no specific study of monkeys I trust you understand.
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    Fine. Then your statement "Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement." is wrong. Incorrect. Untrue. False. Faulty. Inaccurate.
    Monkeys and apes are different. Yes, they are both primates, but monkeys are succesful primates and apes - humans excepted - are heading for extinction.
    You know me well enough by now to know I won't sit idly by when people use loose terminology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Fine. Then your statement "Some monkeys and apes, such as Koko, Washoe have the ability to understand human communication but only through reinforcement." is wrong. Incorrect. Untrue. False. Faulty. Inaccurate.
    Monkeys and apes are different. Yes, they are both primates, but monkeys are succesful primates and apes - humans excepted - are heading for extinction.
    You know me well enough by now to know I won't sit idly by when people use loose terminology.
    Well maybe you should help people stick on the right track then given your knowledge.

    Koko was a gorilla
    Washoe was a chimpanzee.

    They both learned through reinforcement like other primates such as humans. There we go. I wasn't aware that life was an exam Ophiolite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Well maybe you should help people stick on the right track then given your knowledge.
    I think that's what I'm doing. Hopefully there are now some casual readers out there who now know that apes and monkeys are different, and that only the former have communicated with humans using sign language.
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I wasn't aware that life was an exam Ophiolite.
    It is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I wasn't aware that life was an exam Ophiolite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    It is.
    By your philosiphy it is, not mine.
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    Monkeys/apes/chimps talk and learn maths, - When pigs fly, since none of them have the necessary anatomical structures to perform such feats, but of the future? well man will destroy any species that attempts to dominate/threaten it in any way as numerous examples show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I wasn't aware that life was an exam Ophiolite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    It is.
    By your philosiphy it is, not mine.
    It doesn't matter what your philosophy is on the matter, or mine, but just the way things are.

    (And under the Christian philosophy it is most certainly an exam - pass it and you go to heaven, fail and you go to hell.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    (And under the Christian philosophy it is most certainly an exam - pass it and you go to heaven, fail and you go to hell.)
    doesn anyone happen to have any past papers ?

    (preferably somewhat shorter + easier to read than the bible, that is)
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    I've moved this to Behavioral and social Sciences since it fits here whether the topic is th eobvious one of primate communication, or Stream System's hidden agenda of alien reaction to human technical development.

    It certainly had damn all to do with Earth Science.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I've moved this to Behavioral and social Sciences since it fits here whether the topic is th eobvious one of primate communication, or Stream System's hidden agenda of alien reaction to human technical development.

    It certainly had damn all to do with Earth Science.
    Agreed on that one, and the latter . I hope hell has a science forum, where else could I 'troll' .
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    ever heard about feral kids?
    kids raised by animals, and unable to learn language.at around 30 years of age, most of them are only capable of grasping around 300 words.

    here's "princess"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISScU6W1vIg

    http://www.orangutanrepublik.org/index_princess.htm
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    Stream,

    In response to what you said on EMP proof technology, the military have ''hardened'' microchip technology designed to be ''nuke proof''. I'm not very well informed on the subject but I'm that they've figured a way around it and therefore critical systems would be safe.

    Barry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I've moved this to Behavioral and social Sciences since it fits here whether the topic is th eobvious one of primate communication, or Stream System's hidden agenda of alien reaction to human technical development.

    It certainly had damn all to do with Earth Science.

    Now now, Ophiolite, jumping to assumptions that you quietly make assertions.

    What I was highlighting was the higher probability that humans would be more inclined to hold back latest development sciences and technology until they thought it was completely safe to release to the general public, to be "exposed" if you will to the greater sphere of observation. The use of the "aliens" was in the same vein as the use of a character in a story to highlight a more relevant issue than the character itself. My overall interest was in generating feedback on our tendency as a species to know how to class ourselves seperately from the moneky-ape species in view of being the more dominant and responsible biped. I chose "earth sciences" as I thought that the evolution of the species and our seperate "quality" to apes-monkeys was more an earth science than a social science...............then again............
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    Stream Systems, your rationale for placing the thread in Earth Science was as sensible and well reasoned as most of your posts. The thread will remain in Behavioural and Social Sciences.
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    I agree.

    The evolution of ideas in this forum seems to have a mind of it's own, usually at the discretion of a moderator power base everyone appears to succumb to quite pleasantly, if not titillatingly. Nothing wrong with that: it's most enjoyable, you know, the idea of having a thread deraiuled of it's initially intended meaning. Enjoyable? Well, c'mon, I am illogical, right?
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    streamsystems, earth sciences generally have to do with the physical, non-organic segments of our environment. Geography, climate, ocean currents, etc. The evolution and behavior of animals belongs in either biology or behavior. So relax. Your thread fits in here just fine.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    Yes it does, my white little friend.

    I agree.

    But there was a feature to the post, if you browse it more carefully, namely the point of view of a hypothetical wandering alien observing the planet not yet registering "human" as a behavioral science, but more of an earth-science.

    Megabrain has pointed out to me that ultimately we are just going to become parasites in space, which indicates to me that we are still only an "earth-science", as a people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by streamSystems
    Yes it does, my white little friend.

    I agree.

    But there was a feature to the post, if you browse it more carefully, namely the point of view of a hypothetical wandering alien observing the planet not yet registering "human" as a behavioral science, but more of an earth-science.

    Megabrain has pointed out to me that ultimately we are just going to become parasites in space, which indicates to me that we are still only an "earth-science", as a people.
    Well, this thread isn't made by aliens, it's made by us and therefore should follow our definitions. And even parasites are living animals, not pieces of rock. Anything as regards to animals and what they are or are not doing should go in biology or behavior.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
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    In defence of StreamSystems' position - or at least with some sympathy for it - I would note that on several forums Earth Science has been used to cover topics that are clearly biological. I am with you that the only correct usage is to place these within Biology (or Behaviour) unless they deal with something such as the part played by micro-organisms in weathering.
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