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Thread: What if: The universe isn't expanding.

  1. #1 What if: The universe isn't expanding. 
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Just an idea, probably many more have offered this up at some point, but i still want to brabble about it.

    What is the universal cycle? As it has to be a cycle. Nothing just starts or stops, there is a cycle of this (assumption), with maybe exact repetitions possible, within an infinite amounts of resets where everything will then happen again.

    With an ever expanding universe, it has to shrink too, for it to be able to have a cycle going. This seems unlikely with the rate of expansion we measure. And that left right up and down would connect, doesn't seem logical to me.

    What if, instead it is just our perception of an expanding universe. And the universe is actually not moving at all, all massive objects however, are shrinking, and collapsing into one another. What if every atom is comparable to a balloon, losing size, retaining mass. (with the big singularity, when all the "air" has left the balloon)

    What if, slowly, properties of the universe will change, depending on the molecules. What if some spaces shrunk quicker than others. What of, we go to a location 10 billion lightyears away, and have our spaceship be as large as a planet, but incomparable mass. What if, oxygen, from another galaxy would be too different for our lungs to absorb, or interact with for our bodies. What if their oxygen, isn't even oxygen to us?

    Maybe that is the reason we have not found any aliens.. Their signals, would be made using different matter, and maybe on a different scale wavelength, scrambling it though our space. Maybe space itself is deadly when we go too far away from our home, maybe we can adjust to it over time, changing the composition of our body slowly, until al our molecules are different.

    Just some ideas


    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  3. #2  
    ox
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    I think you have to factor in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) into any speculation.

    It might also be helpful to read Roger Penrose's Cycles of Time.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think you have to factor in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) into any speculation.

    It might also be helpful to read Roger Penrose's Cycles of Time.
    That (entropy factor) had lso occurred to me.Is there a strong link between (expanding?) entropy and the expansion or contraction.of the universe?

    Is it possible to imagine any scenario where entropy is not an actor?
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    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think you have to factor in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) into any speculation.
    The laws of thermodynamics are pretty difficult to dismiss. One supposes that is why they are called laws.

    And the second law of thermodynamics firms up entropy as perhaps the most significant driving force in nature (1). It has been used to postulate the "heat death of the universe" by increasing entropy (2).

    Quoting from (1):

    "Entropy predicts the direction of spontaneous processes, and determines whether they are irreversible or impossible, despite obeying the requirement of conservation of energy, which is established in the first law of thermodynamics."

    end quote

    The heat death of the universe was proposed based on these thermodynamic laws quite some time ago. Quoting from (2):

    "The hypothesis of heat death stems from the ideas of Lord Kelvin, who in the 1850s took the theory of heat as mechanical energy loss in nature (as embodied in the first two laws of thermodynamics) and extrapolated it to larger processes on a universal scale."

    end quote

    Of course there are other views on the fate of the universe. But for some of us, the well established laws of thermodynamics must be satisfied.

    A continuously expanding universe seems best defined by these laws, as well as another, Hubble's Law (3), which offers direct empirical evidence. Combined, these laws construct a very high bar for alternative concepts.



    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second...thermodynamics

    2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_d...f_the_universe

    3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble%27s_law
    Last edited by Double Helix; July 16th, 2021 at 04:06 PM.
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  6. #5  
    ox
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    That (entropy factor) had also occurred to me. Is there a strong link between (expanding?) entropy and the expansion or contraction.of the universe?
    While entropy is the supreme law of the universe, we still need to understand dark energy.

    Is it possible to imagine any scenario where entropy is not an actor?
    In a closed system.

    But the universe does not always play according to our rules as entropy is not an equation.

    In the case of life and the universe as open systems in relation to the laws of thermodynamics:
    We can't win.
    We are sure to lose.
    We can't get out of the game.

    So we are all actors playing out a tragedy, as is the universe.
    No escape for either from death.

    (Being miserable keeps me happy).
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    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I think you have to factor in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (entropy) into any speculation.

    It might also be helpful to read Roger Penrose's Cycles of Time.
    That (entropy factor) had lso occurred to me.Is there a strong link between (expanding?) entropy and the expansion or contraction.of the universe?

    Is it possible to imagine any scenario where entropy is not an actor?
    Yeah, i don't know if entropy is a factor here. When time goes to extremes, it becomes the main variable. We don't know all the factors of the universe, and if we imagine the size of particles of atoms as a set size, if they lose some of their size every second, they may change properties after a while.

    Entropy doesn't work in the scale of the whole universe. As in a cosmic timescale, if something isn't a loop, it never existed, and we cannot exist either. The universe either is a loop, or god exists. So, the universe cannot just expand, it has to contract, or in this case, reach a singularity of where matter changes, and reforms atoms. At least, thats my idea of it..

    Cycles of time, i will give a look.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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