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Thread: Does a real free human exist?

  1. #1 Does a real free human exist? 
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    Nothing stops a person to think and even tell others that he is a free human being. But facts are facts.

    The universal fact is that the living cells of a human body are pre-programmed already by instructions that are embedded by the Creative Will/Energy (surely not by any human) and have been evolved with time as necessary (also their evolution follows natural pre-set rules). We use calling the embedded instructions of the highest level... ‘instincts’. Naturally, among these instructions, there are logical branch ones to help a living being (including a human) choose what is better for its survival; for as long as possible, as individuals and/or species (race in case of humans).

    So if we analyze, in general, every situation in which a person thought that he was free in dealing with it, we would find out that he simply followed his instincts in the best possible way. (I don’t expect many readers here are ready to agree on this because there is another fact which is hard to realize or even accept.)

    In order for the world to run properly (this a very big topic), life on earth needs that its living beings have various different, if not opposite, roles to play in it while they are alive. This also applies on the human race. Although the core subset of instincts is common to all humans, every person has also a personal subset of embedded instructions to guide him how to play his given role in serving the world; by building and/or destroying.
    So I am not surprised when an act or something is good to me while it is not so to others; and vice versa.
    And because this variety of roles/characters has to exist, the notions of good and evil have been created by humans and applied among them since very long ago. For example, if 'A' agrees with 'B', 'B' sees in 'A' a good person. If 'A' opposes with authority a powerless one 'B', 'B' sees in 'A' an evil person. In other words, all laws/rules that are imposed on humans are man-made ones and reflect the common set of human’s instincts. So while an atheist accepts observing the law of his earthly ruling system, he is not ready, at all, obeying any rule claimed being of God (or alike). Atheists (at least the ones I had the chance to hear or meet) don’t know yet that they are totally right in this. The real Energy/Will behind our existence has no reason at all to inspire any law/rules and impose them on humans; humans, as all other living things, are controlled by their embedded instincts already.

    Should we deduce from above that a real free human cannot exist?

    Well, such a person can exist. Could you guess how?
    The answer can also be deduced from above.

    This will be the topic on my next post.

    Cheers,
    Kerim


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  3. #2  
    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    The universal fact is that the living cells of a human body are pre-programmed already by instructions that are embedded by the Creative Will/Energy
    This isn't a fact.
    We use calling the embedded instructions of the highest level... ‘instincts’. Naturally, among these instructions, there are logical branch ones to help a living being (including a human) choose what is better for its survival; for as long as possible, as individuals and/or species (race in case of humans).
    Then why do we see reports of humans dying in an attempt to rescue animals?
    So if we analyze, in general, every situation in which a person thought that he was free in dealing with it, we would find out that he simply followed his instincts in the best possible way.
    Again, how does a human drowning while trying to rescue a dog accord with "better for that individual's survival?
    Although the core subset of instincts is common to all humans, every person has also a personal subset of embedded instructions to guide him how to play his given role in serving the world; by building and/or destroying.
    A role given by what/ whom?
    The real Energy/Will behind our existence has no reason at all to inspire any law/rules and impose them on humans; humans, as all other living things, are controlled by their embedded instincts already.
    If those instincts are "embedded" then, surely, that's an imposition from "outside", so your argument fails.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    The universal fact is that the living cells of a human body are pre-programmed already by instructions that are embedded by the Creative Will/Energy
    This isn't a fact.
    Do you mean the human's body could be made alive with no instructions embedded in his living cells? At least our AI robots had to be programmed
    Or
    Perhaps you mean that these evolved instructions (including our instincts) were developed from nothing at Big Bang. This nothing has to be a great unknown programmer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    We use calling the embedded instructions of the highest level... ‘instincts’. Naturally, among these instructions, there are logical branch ones to help a living being (including a human) choose what is better for its survival; for as long as possible, as individuals and/or species (race in case of humans).
    Then why do we see reports of humans dying in an attempt to rescue animals?
    Do you mean a father dying in an attempt to rescue an animal who attacked and killed his family.
    On the other hand, did I say a human is not an evolved animal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    So if we analyze, in general, every situation in which a person thought that he was free in dealing with it, we would find out that he simply followed his instincts in the best possible way.
    Again, how does a human drowning while trying to rescue a dog accord with "better for that individual's survival?
    Although the core subset of instincts is common to all humans, every person has also a personal subset of embedded instructions to guide him how to play his given role in serving the world; by building and/or destroying.
    A role given by what/ whom?
    I am afraid that you, like most people in the world, have to play your role, here and elsewhere, for which you are created; no matter if you know or not what or who gave it to you. I bet you enjoy playing it... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    The real Energy/Will behind our existence has no reason at all to inspire any law/rules and impose them on humans; humans, as all other living things, are controlled by their embedded instincts already.
    If those instincts are "embedded" then, surely, that's an imposition from "outside", so your argument fails.
    You are right. This is why rare people around the world can end up be free as we will see later.

    Kerim
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    Perhaps you mean that these evolved instructions (including our instincts) were developed from nothing at Big Bang.
    Yes.
    This nothing has to be a great unknown programmer.
    Unsupported assumption.
    Do you mean a father dying in an attempt to rescue an animal who attacked and killed his family.
    No.
    On the other hand, did I say a human is not an evolved animal?
    But we are an "evolved animal".
    And you claimed this: human) choose what is better for its survival. That doesn't fit with humans dying to save animals from dying.
    I am afraid that you, like most people in the world, have to play your role, here and elsewhere, for which you are created; no matter if you know or not what or who gave it to you. I bet you enjoy playing it... right?
    So, rather than even attempt to answer the questions you'd rather simply reiterate your unsupported claim?
    You are right. This is why rare people around the world can end up be free as we will see later.
    I'm right that you're wrong?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Ahhhh, one has to love the smell of poorly veiled creationism in the morning.


    There is not creator, not higher programmer. Instincts and behaviors are the accumulated cruft from millions of years of individuals not fucking up so bad that they "Darwin Award" themselves from the species pool.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I'm right that you're wrong?
    Of course you have to be right. During my rather long life I didn't have the chance to meet or know even one mature person who sees himself wrong.
    So if I hear you someday saying that you agree with me on something I would be sure that you are kidding.

    On the other hand, instead of telling me that you read reports of this and that, just tell me that you, for example, are ready to die to rescue an animal so that I can take what you say seriously (I assume you have no reason to lie while you are talking to a few friends only). By the way, it is always good to save other's life; of a human, a weak animal or even a fruitful tree.

    When I write about many things, I may forget to add some details. This is why in a serious friendly conversation both sides don't worship the words of each other but they keep talking to understand each other, as possible, the way they are. (Being different doesn't imply they cannot be friends).

    So Please don't worry to keep telling me... NO... NO... NO... You started giving me the impression that, for some reasons unknown to me, you have nothing new or useful to share with others and this is not your fault (it happens in best families). So I personally do respect the role you have to play here... because if it wasn't you there would be someone else to do it.
    Last edited by KerimF; April 2nd, 2021 at 05:07 PM. Reason: minor corrections
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Ahhhh, one has to love the smell of poorly veiled creationism in the morning.
    There is not creator, not higher programmer. Instincts and behaviors are the accumulated cruft from millions of years of individuals not fucking up so bad that they "Darwin Award" themselves from the species pool.
    If I wasn't a scientist and if I wasn't a programmer, I would react exactly as you did.

    On the other hand, all livings things are not supposed knowing/perceiving anything other than following their instincts.
    Naturally, nothing prevents a human to be like these living things.
    I guess you know that a human has in his body millions of living cells which were instructed very well about how to keep their host alive. And it is not wrong or bad if his instincts guide him and let him know what to do in life in exchange for the various pleasures which are also programmed in his body. Such human is usually content the way he is and the idea of being created has nothing to do in his pre-programmed life.

    In other words, I guess we both agree that in your case, for example, there is no need for a guidance other than your instincts since you perceive in you just a living body only which you have to take care of as possible. The good news is that billions of people are like you. They don't have to be atheists. A believer who doesn't mind knowing that his creator has to be pleased by obeying certain rules and by observing certain rituals (to avoid his wrath) is actually just a follower of some earthly masters who play the representatives of a man-made god (there are many such gods offered on the world's table). After all, humans instincts also guide people to gather in formal well-organized groups as some animals do in the wild jungles to have a better chance of survival. So in a religious group it doesn't matter which man-made god is worshipped as long there is a law supervised by masters and observed by their believers/followers.

    I hope now you can have a nice day.

    Cheers,
    Kerim
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  9. #8  
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    For me, divine intervention is sitting alone in a bar, and a lovely lady walks up and asks to buy me a drink. How could I refuse? My prayers had been answered. Sadly, she had done it on a bet, and left shortly after. At least I got a free drink for my looks, apparently.

    Have not trusted divine intervention ever since. It is anti-science in the extreme. And certainly anti-human behavior, in more ways than one.........
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    If I wasn't a scientist
    Haven't seen much evidence of that so far.
    On the other hand, all livings things are not supposed knowing/perceiving anything other than following their instincts.
    Where's the evidence for this?
    I guess you know that a human has in his body millions of living cells which were instructed very well about how to keep their host alive.
    Instructed? Evidence please.
    pre-programmed life.
    Evidence?
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    You started giving me the impression that, for some reasons unknown to me, you have nothing new or useful to share with others
    I suppose that that (close-minded) attitude does provide you with an excuse for not answering my questions.
    So I personally do respect the role you have to play here.
    Apparently not, since you see fit to refuse to answer questions or actually respond to points raised.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Ahhhh, one has to love the smell of poorly veiled creationism in the morning.
    There is not creator, not higher programmer. Instincts and behaviors are the accumulated cruft from millions of years of individuals not fucking up so bad that they "Darwin Award" themselves from the species pool.
    If I wasn't a scientist and if I wasn't a programmer, I would react exactly as you did.

    On the other hand, all livings things are not supposed knowing/perceiving anything other than following their instincts.
    Naturally, nothing prevents a human to be like these living things.
    I guess you know that a human has in his body millions of living cells which were instructed very well about how to keep their host alive. And it is not wrong or bad if his instincts guide him and let him know what to do in life in exchange for the various pleasures which are also programmed in his body. Such human is usually content the way he is and the idea of being created has nothing to do in his pre-programmed life.

    In other words, I guess we both agree that in your case, for example, there is no need for a guidance other than your instincts since you perceive in you just a living body only which you have to take care of as possible. The good news is that billions of people are like you. They don't have to be atheists. A believer who doesn't mind knowing that his creator has to be pleased by obeying certain rules and by observing certain rituals (to avoid his wrath) is actually just a follower of some earthly masters who play the representatives of a man-made god (there are many such gods offered on the world's table). After all, humans instincts also guide people to gather in formal well-organized groups as some animals do in the wild jungles to have a better chance of survival. So in a religious group it doesn't matter which man-made god is worshipped as long there is a law supervised by masters and observed by their believers/followers.

    I hope now you can have a nice day.

    Cheers,
    Kerim
    Billions of atheists? Citation needed. Or are you purposely using the term atheist fallaciously to mean anyone who does not follow your personal brand of religion?

    Yes the body has billions of cells, there is absolutely no evidence of an intelligent design behind them. It's all cobbled together bits left over from various mutations over millennia. What intelligence would put the waste functions right through the reproductive system. Or make two 9f the same sex attracted to each other.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    For me, divine intervention is sitting alone in a bar, and a lovely lady walks up and asks to buy me a drink. How could I refuse? My prayers had been answered. Sadly, she had done it on a bet, and left shortly after. At least I got a free drink for my looks, apparently.
    Have not trusted divine intervention ever since. It is anti-science in the extreme. And certainly anti-human behavior, in more ways than one.........
    You mean you used just listening to others about what you call now 'divine intervention'. Then you realized that it can't be trusted. In this case, it is a natural end.

    I personally didn't use trusting blindly anything said by others (at school then during my high studies) no matter if it was about science or else. In reality, every one has always his good reasons in telling me, since I was a kid, to believe in this or that. Fortunately, I am also given a human brain like all others are, in general. So I simply use it while I discover the realm (limited by time and space) into which I was forced to exist. (I deliberately chose the verb 'force' because I am a realistic rational person and, as far as I perceive, I wasn't involved at all in the process that let my existence be possible in this life, about 71 years so far).

    By the way, even a robot could be made by his programmer to also search his maker, by including in his program an algorithm for this purpose. But should every robot have such algorithm?! Of course not, a conventional robot is supposed to play the role for which his maker did it only.

    In brief, I am sure that my maker (actually the Energy/Will that created the universe so that I can be brought into it temporarily, not just a supernatural being) doesn't need anything from me or from any other tiny creatures in this huge universe. So it is out of question for me to trust anyone who tells me that I have to obey certain divine imposed rules (claimed being inspired from Heaven). But, at the same time, Laws, by design, are very important in the material realm (in the world jungles) so that those who are created just to serve the world (by building or destroying, like rain and earthquake do) can play the masters/slaves games; the modern words are 'powerful Elite' (religious and/or political) and their 'obedient faithful followers' (believers).

    I mean, for a human to live normally, one doesn't have to search his maker (though from within himself and not from hearing others) if he doesn't feel the need to do it (due to lack of the proper algorithm in him).
    This explains why almost all people, if not all, around the world are happy (or satisfied in the least) with the nature of which they are made.

    Last edited by KerimF; April 3rd, 2021 at 06:15 AM. Reason: minor correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Evidence?
    So now 'NO... NO... NO...' are replaced with 'Evidence... Evidence... Evidence...'.

    I agree with you.
    It seems that you have in your life some other people whose observations about the world seem right to you, though you have your good reasons not to tell me about their right observations.

    Anyway, I am glad you are happy for having the chance to end up knowing many right things while I don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I suppose that that (close-minded) attitude does provide you with an excuse for not answering my questions.
    Apparently not, since you see fit to refuse to answer questions or actually respond to points raised.
    Do you mean I may have the chance to know an answer, by myself, that pleases you? From knowing you so far, it is one of the impossibilities to happen.

    So please tell me how I should answer every question you post; unless I didn't realize yet that I returned to school here and I am doing an exam.
    Last edited by KerimF; April 3rd, 2021 at 06:09 AM. Reason: minor correction
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Billions of atheists? Citation needed. Or are you purposely using the term atheist fallaciously to mean anyone who does not follow your personal brand of religion?
    I hope you agree with me that a religion (any religion) has to be based on faith.
    Did I say I know any truth based on faith? Please let me know if I gave you such impression on one (or more) of my posts. Thank you.
    I mean I can't have a personal brand of religion though you may say that I have my personal brand of science instead which is based on my personal observations and logical analyses. So the ideas which I have accepted adding, year after year, to my set of knowledge have to be both logical and useful... useful in my life of course (Yes, others have their own brilliant brain to use it if they like).

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Yes the body has billions of cells, there is absolutely no evidence of an intelligent design behind them. It's all cobbled together bits left over from various mutations over millennia. What intelligence would put the waste functions right through the reproductive system. Or make two 9f the same sex attracted to each other.
    It seems you are interested in the 'human reproductive system'. Too many people, whom I had the chance to talk to in private, told me that if they lose it (the one whose sensations are made very pleasant) they won't have anymore a good reason to work hard or even live. So I wasn't surprised when I found out that almost everything (good or bad) in humans life has to be related, directly or indirectly. to what could be called 'sexual activities'. For example, I heard that it is not a crime if the president of a certain country tell lies then play the ignorant afterwards (after all, this happens in best families). But he has to be very careful not to be involved, in any way, in a sexual affair because this would be considered a crime against the nation.

    Aren't the pre-programmed sexual pleasant sensations a very clever stimulus that let humans work hard day and night in order to deserve them?!

    But it happens that the process of thinking gave me a higher level of pleasure always, so I wasn't interested in having sexual relations of any sort anytime in my life. Fortunately, a well-known person (no matter if he is a myth or real) wasn't interested in looking for them too. This lets me feel better that I am not unique in this.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    Do you mean I may have the chance to know an answer, by myself, that pleases you?
    So please tell me how I should answer every question you post; unless I didn't realize yet that I returned to school here and I am doing an exam.
    This IS a science forum.
    Claims should be supported.
    So far it appears that you are operating on belief, not science.
    Mod Note: If you persist in posting claims and refusing/ failing to support them then you won't be here much longer.

    I mean I can't have a personal brand of religion
    You have quite clearly demonstrated that this statement is false.
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  18. #17  
    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Billions of atheists? Citation needed. Or are you purposely using the term atheist fallaciously to mean anyone who does not follow your personal brand of religion?
    I hope you agree with me that a religion (any religion) has to be based on faith.
    Did I say I know any truth based on faith? Please let me know if I gave you such impression on one (or more) of my posts. Thank you.
    I mean I can't have a personal brand of religion though you may say that I have my personal brand of science instead which is based on my personal observations and logical analyses. So the ideas which I have accepted adding, year after year, to my set of knowledge have to be both logical and useful... useful in my life of course (Yes, others have their own brilliant brain to use it if they like).

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Yes the body has billions of cells, there is absolutely no evidence of an intelligent design behind them. It's all cobbled together bits left over from various mutations over millennia. What intelligence would put the waste functions right through the reproductive system. Or make two 9f the same sex attracted to each other.
    It seems you are interested in the 'human reproductive system'. Too many people, whom I had the chance to talk to in private, told me that if they lose it (the one whose sensations are made very pleasant) they won't have anymore a good reason to work hard or even live. So I wasn't surprised when I found out that almost everything (good or bad) in humans life has to be related, directly or indirectly. to what could be called 'sexual activities'. For example, I heard that it is not a crime if the president of a certain country tell lies then play the ignorant afterwards (after all, this happens in best families). But he has to be very careful not to be involved, in any way, in a sexual affair because this would be considered a crime against the nation.

    Aren't the pre-programmed sexual pleasant sensations a very clever stimulus that let humans work hard day and night in order to deserve them?!

    But it happens that the process of thinking gave me a higher level of pleasure always, so I wasn't interested in having sexual relations of any sort anytime in my life. Fortunately, a well-known person (no matter if he is a myth or real) wasn't interested in looking for them too. This lets me feel better that I am not unique in this.
    I see you avoided my questions
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    I got very well the message of the moderators here.

    Obviously every one of you has fully the right to play the man-made god in his house, and I am glad you all can do it. I was just a humble guest who entered your house by mistake.

    So please don't stop playing this fantastic role as long you are alive and privileged to impose your definitions of science and else on your guests.

    And I am very sorry for not being able to please you as believers should please their gods.


    Wish all have a long happy life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    your definitions of science
    And wrong again.
    And I am very sorry for not being able to please you as believers should please their gods.
    More evidence that you're not the scientist you claimed to be.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by KerimF View Post
    Did I say I know any truth based on faith? Please let me know if I gave you such impression on one (or more) of my posts. Thank you.
    You did that when you said this:

    The universal fact is that the living cells of a human body are pre-programmed already by instructions that are embedded by the Creative Will/Energy

    Your welcome.
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  22. #21  
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    I believe in God, OP but your ideas aren't really ''traditional'' thinking of believers. Not that they have to be, but there's nothing really evident anywhere, that supports your claims. Not sure what you mean by ''Energy,'' ''Will,'' and that we are pre-programmed with instructions?
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