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Thread: Symmetry and Asymmetry of the Universe: of Divine Origin?

  1. #1 Symmetry and Asymmetry of the Universe: of Divine Origin? 
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    It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric, and that every unit of nature is perfectly asymmetric. Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit. Earth, moon and sun are a common unit. Earth, moon, "planets," sun and stars are another natural unit. Everything lacks perfect symmetry, and mandates perfect asymmetry. Regions of the seas appear at times to be ungoverned, but are clearly of one surface with the rivers and water tables, modulated by the ebb and flow of those rivers, and by the water tables under the earth, and by the winds and by vaporization and condensation. The passing of seasons on earth appear to be symmetric, but then they seem out of step with the moon's wax and wane. The passing of the earth's evenings and mornings seems perfectly uniform, yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons. It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.


    Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature. Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.


    Since this discussion will probably evoke resentment in some, I thank any persons now, who participate, in case it is ever censored. The question at hand then, is this: Who made the universe? I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.


     

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  3. #2  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Moved.


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    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    I say that no-being made the universe, and say there is no evidence at all to the contrary
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I say that no-being made the universe, and say there is no evidence at all to the contrary
    Evasion works well for some.
     

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    Do local courts of law exist in nature, by the nature of human communities?
     

  7. #6  
    exchemist
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Do local courts of law exist in nature, by the nature of human communities?
    Is my hovercraft full of eels?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Do local courts of law exist in nature, by the nature of human communities?
    Is my hovercraft full of eels?
    It is an eel.
     

  9. #8  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric
    So what?

    perfectly asymmetric
    What separates merely asymmetric from "perfectly asymmetric"?

    Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit.
    Is "semi symmetrical" any relation to "perfectly asymmetric"?

    yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons.
    So what?

    It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.
    Your "necessarily" doesn't actually follow.

    Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature.
    And yet it's not, being false to nature on numerous counts.

    Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.
    No.

    Who made the universe? I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.
    Why?
    Given that even the Bible doesn't introduce "Jesus" until way after the universe was "created" (by "god" according to that same Bible)...
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
     

  10. #9  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric, and that every unit of nature is perfectly asymmetric. Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit. Earth, moon and sun are a common unit. Earth, moon, "planets," sun and stars are another natural unit. Everything lacks perfect symmetry, and mandates perfect asymmetry. Regions of the seas appear at times to be ungoverned, but are clearly of one surface with the rivers and water tables, modulated by the ebb and flow of those rivers, and by the water tables under the earth, and by the winds and by vaporization and condensation. The passing of seasons on earth appear to be symmetric, but then they seem out of step with the moon's wax and wane. The passing of the earth's evenings and mornings seems perfectly uniform, yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons. It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.
    This doesn't make much sense. You are saying that nothing in the universe is perfect and this is evidence of perfect creation?

    Surely if a perfect creator had created the world by a perfect art, then the result would be perfect.

    Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature.
    You are saying it isn't perfectly uniform. Therefore you don't accept Genesis, correct?

    Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.
    So you disagree with the bible and think that nature is irrational?


    Since this discussion will probably evoke resentment in some
    Not resentment. I am just baffled that anyone can write such incoherent nonsense.

    The question at hand then, is this: Who made the universe? I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.
    That contradicts what you have said above (where you deny creation).

    It is also impossible because Jesus didn't exist when the universe was created.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
     

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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;607030]
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    perfectly asymmetric
    What separates merely asymmetric from "perfectly asymmetric"?
    Mere asymmetry never exists. Every asymmetric instance has symmetry in it, or in other instances; so all asymmetry is perfected.
     

  12. #11  
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    [QUOTE=Strange;607033]
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric, and that every unit of nature is perfectly asymmetric. Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit. Earth, moon and sun are a common unit. Earth, moon, "planets," sun and stars are another natural unit. Everything lacks perfect symmetry, and mandates perfect asymmetry. Regions of the seas appear at times to be ungoverned, but are clearly of one surface with the rivers and water tables, modulated by the ebb and flow of those rivers, and by the water tables under the earth, and by the winds and by vaporization and condensation. The passing of seasons on earth appear to be symmetric, but then they seem out of step with the moon's wax and wane. The passing of the earth's evenings and mornings seems perfectly uniform, yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons. It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.
    This doesn't make much sense. You are saying that nothing in the universe is perfect and this is evidence of perfect creation?
    Asymmetry in nature always occurs as ordered deviation, complete, not in isolation. Perfect symmetry is as devious as chaos; it doesn't exist in nature.

    Surely if a perfect creator had created the world by a perfect art, then the result would be perfect.
    In terms of completion yes; remove the flaws and then the creation is imperfect. Christ then, would not have died and then been raised. Victory would not exist (in terms of organic decay, an integral natural process, traditionally tested in science).

    Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature.
    You are saying it isn't perfectly uniform. Therefore you don't accept Genesis, correct?
    Nope. I am saying that nature is perfectly uniform with Genesis chapter 1, and vice-versa.

    Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.
    So you disagree with the bible and think that nature is irrational?
    Nope. I'm saying that the modern scientific view that evidence does not exist of a divinely-ordered creation, contradicts nature, since that view holds that all instances of symmetry that occur in nature are accidental.

    Since this discussion will probably evoke resentment in some
    Not resentment. I am just baffled that anyone can write such incoherent nonsense.
    I'll take that as a nail.

    The question at hand then, is this: Who made the universe? I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.
    That contradicts what you have said above (where you deny creation).
    You're mistaking "incoherency" with lack of understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It is also impossible because Jesus didn't exist when the universe was created.
    If you understood the things Jesus said and did, you would understand that his birth in Bethlehem predates the heavens and the earth.
     

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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=B. John Jones;607035]
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    perfectly asymmetric
    What separates merely asymmetric from "perfectly asymmetric"?
    Mere asymmetry never exists. Every asymmetric instance has symmetry in it, or in other instances; so all asymmetry is perfected.
    And colourless green sheep dream furiously.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
     

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    [QUOTE=Strange;607037]
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    perfectly asymmetric
    What separates merely asymmetric from "perfectly asymmetric"?
    Mere asymmetry never exists. Every asymmetric instance has symmetry in it, or in other instances; so all asymmetry is perfected.
    And colourless green sheep dream furiously.
    What separates scoffers from fools?
     

  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post

    What separates scoffers from fools?
    Very little.They are delicious.
     

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    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I say that no-being made the universe, and say there is no evidence at all to the contrary
    Evasion works well for some.
    How explicitly was my comment an evasion? YOU asked for opinions, and i provided my view, which is based on a knowledge of science.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
     

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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Mere asymmetry never exists. Every asymmetric instance has symmetry in it, or in other instances; so all asymmetry is perfected.
    Unsupported claim.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
     

  18. #17  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    Nope. I am saying that nature is perfectly uniform with Genesis chapter 1, and vice-versa.
    Only if you ignore the known facts.

    If you understood the things Jesus said and did, you would understand that his birth in Bethlehem predates the heavens and the earth.
    Arrant nonsense.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=B. John Jones;607036]
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by B. John Jones View Post
    It seems clearly that there is never a unit of nature, whether natural or "supernatural," that is perfectly symmetric, and that every unit of nature is perfectly asymmetric. Earth is a semi-symmetrical unit. Earth, moon and sun are a common unit. Earth, moon, "planets," sun and stars are another natural unit. Everything lacks perfect symmetry, and mandates perfect asymmetry. Regions of the seas appear at times to be ungoverned, but are clearly of one surface with the rivers and water tables, modulated by the ebb and flow of those rivers, and by the water tables under the earth, and by the winds and by vaporization and condensation. The passing of seasons on earth appear to be symmetric, but then they seem out of step with the moon's wax and wane. The passing of the earth's evenings and mornings seems perfectly uniform, yet no perfect number of days fits precisely within the bounds of seasons and moons. It would seem then, that necessarily, there is an eternal Creator, and that He fashioned the worlds by a perfect art, a discipline far weightier than science.
    This doesn't make much sense. You are saying that nothing in the universe is perfect and this is evidence of perfect creation?
    Asymmetry in nature always occurs as ordered deviation, complete, not in isolation. Perfect symmetry is as devious as chaos; it doesn't exist in nature.

    Surely if a perfect creator had created the world by a perfect art, then the result would be perfect.
    In terms of completion yes; remove the flaws and then the creation is imperfect. Christ then, would not have died and then been raised. Victory would not exist (in terms of organic decay, an integral natural process, traditionally tested in science).

    Moreover, those of a common faith with the Bible, would require that Genesis chapter 1 is perfectly uniform with nature.
    You are saying it isn't perfectly uniform. Therefore you don't accept Genesis, correct?
    Nope. I am saying that nature is perfectly uniform with Genesis chapter 1, and vice-versa.

    Those of a contrary view from the Bible, would require that nature is irrational and that asymmetry is dominant in the universe since it's symmetry is purely coincidental.
    So you disagree with the bible and think that nature is irrational?
    Nope. I'm saying that the modern scientific view that evidence does not exist of a divinely-ordered creation, contradicts nature, since that view holds that all instances of symmetry that occur in nature are accidental.

    Since this discussion will probably evoke resentment in some
    Not resentment. I am just baffled that anyone can write such incoherent nonsense.
    I'll take that as a nail.

    The question at hand then, is this: Who made the universe? I say Jesus of Nazareth made the universe.
    That contradicts what you have said above (where you deny creation).
    You're mistaking "incoherency" with lack of understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It is also impossible because Jesus didn't exist when the universe was created.
    If you understood the things Jesus said and did, you would understand that his birth in Bethlehem predates the heavens and the earth.
    This is not a place that prostletyzing is allowed, so please support all assertions with data, not vague suggestions that one particular religion is the end all of everything
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
     

  20. #19  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    MOD NOTE: The hypothesis that the universe has a supernatural origin is not amenable to the scientific method, since it can neither be tested nor falsified. This being a science forum, I hence do not see any purpose to this discussion, other than the OP misusing it as a platform to proselytise religious ideas, which is not what this forum exists for.

    Thread closed.
     

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