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Thread: Straightening out a problem with a string theory brain

  1. #1 Straightening out a problem with a string theory brain 
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    Mathematically, as I have learned there are three dimensions, taking a piece of paper, a vertical x- axis is one, 90 degree horizontal y-axis is two and another line coming 90 degrees out of the paper is the z-axis for the third dimension. There is no other way to create another 90 degree angle. If there was then we would live in a 4 dimensional universe but we don't because there is no way to create another 90 degree angle, there are only three and it is the emperor's new clothes fairy tale to say otherwise. Why hasn't anyone simple stated that here lies the problem and it is not a valid assumption to assume another 4th to infinity dimension.


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    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    *calls number* Hey, is that Dunning or Kruger? Oh, good, we have another case study for you at the science forum. That's right, yet another poster who thinks because they personally don't understand something it can't possibly be correct. I know, stupid isn't it...


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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiss View Post
    Why hasn't anyone simple stated that here lies the problem and it is not a valid assumption to assume another 4th to infinity dimension.
    Firstly, the extra dimensions in string theory are not an "assumption"; they are a consequence of the mathematics. Currently there is no evidence that string theory is a realistic description of the universe, so the existence or otherwise of these extra dimensions is moot. However, the usual explanation for why we cannot detect them (if they exist) is that they are curled up tight. Imagine a line thinner than a hair; from a distance it looks like a 1 dimensional line, it is only when you get really close that you can detect that it has a second dimension.

    More here (if you are interested): Looking for extra dimensions
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    ***** Participant Write4U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiss View Post
    Mathematically, as I have learned there are three dimensions, taking a piece of paper, a vertical x- axis is one, 90 degree horizontal y-axis is two and another line coming 90 degrees out of the paper is the z-axis for the third dimension. There is no other way to create another 90 degree angle. If there was then we would live in a 4 dimensional universe but we don't because there is no way to create another 90 degree angle, there are only three and it is the emperor's new clothes fairy tale to say otherwise. Why hasn't anyone simple stated that here lies the problem and it is not a valid assumption to assume another 4th to infinity dimension.
    I look at this very simply,

    Take your piece of folded paper and move it to the other side of the table. You still have the same dimensions, but to move the structure requires time. So you end up with the same physical dimensions but in a different spacetime location (frame of reference) from the original position. This difference accounts for the 4th dimension of "time".

    Even if you did not move the paper structure, say a 12" cubed box. You construct it and place it in the closet. The next morning you check and hey it's still there, it hasn't moved an inch! But that is wrong. The box may be thousands of miles from the exact location in "spacetime" you placed it originally. You don't see the difference because you are in the same frame of reference as the box, but you also have moved in spacetime, right along with the box.
    Space keeps things apart, Time keeps things from happening all at once. 4 Dimensions (at least).

    It is very important to understand this "marriage" of space and time as all science is based on those four fundamental dimensions (measurements).

    As to the eleven dimensions in string (M) theory, this may be due to the mathematical precision strings are "permitted" to vibrate. In order to be able to vibrate at all primary and harmonic wavelengths, the 3 normal spatial dimensions may not allow for sufficient accuracy of movement or end up with conflicting "wave interferences".

    I am a layman myself so I'll await correction from "learned minds', but I hope at least my reasoning is fundamentally logical.
    Last edited by Write4U; July 3rd, 2014 at 04:06 PM.
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    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by write4u View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kiss View Post
    mathematically, as i have learned there are three dimensions, taking a piece of paper, a vertical x- axis is one, 90 degree horizontal y-axis is two and another line coming 90 degrees out of the paper is the z-axis for the third dimension. There is no other way to create another 90 degree angle. If there was then we would live in a 4 dimensional universe but we don't because there is no way to create another 90 degree angle, there are only three and it is the emperor's new clothes fairy tale to say otherwise. Why hasn't anyone simple stated that here lies the problem and it is not a valid assumption to assume another 4th to infinity dimension.
    i look at this very simply,

    take your piece of folded paper and move it to the other side of the table. You still have the same dimensions, but to move the structure requires time. So you end up with the same physical dimensions but in a different spacetime location (frame of reference) from the original position. This difference accounts for the 4th dimension of "time".

    Even if you did not move the paper structure, say a 12" cubed box. You construct it and place it in the closet. The next morning you check and hey it's still there, it hasn't moved an inch! But that is wrong. The box may be thousands of miles from the exact location in "spacetime" you placed it originally. You don't see the difference because you are in the same frame of reference as the box, but you also have moved in spacetime, right along with the box.
    Space keeps things apart, time keeps things from happening all at once. 4 dimensions (at least).

    It is very important to understand this "marriage" of space and time as all science is based on those four fundamental dimensions (measurements).

    As to the eleven dimensions in string (m) theory, this may be due to the mathematical precision strings are "permitted" to vibrate. In order to be able to vibrate at all primary and harmonic wavelengths, the 3 normal spatial dimensions may not allow for sufficient accuracy of movement or end up with conflicting "wave interferences".

    I am a layman myself so i'll await correction from "learned minds', but i hope at least my reasoning is fundamentally logical.
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    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Mathematically, as I have learned there are three dimensions, taking a piece of paper, a vertical x- axis is one, 90 degree horizontal y-axis is two and another line coming 90 degrees out of the paper is the z-axis for the third dimension.
    You cannot use a 2-dimensional piece of paper to demonstrate a 3-dimensional space, because the third axis is never visible; I would argue that the surface of your paper is just that - strictly 2-dimensional. You will need a foliation of such surfaces to obtain a 3-dimensional space. Likewise you cannot use a 3-dimensional space to conclude that a 4th ( or higher ) dimension can't exist, since those obviously cannot be represented within the 3-dimensional space; the fact that they cannot be represented there does not allow you to conclude that they can't exist. It's a classic logical fallacy - drawing conclusions from a special case about a more general case is never wise.

    The fact is that we have a model of gravity that is in extremely good accord with experiment and observation, being General Relativity. This model represents what we call "gravity" by the geometry of a (3+1)-dimensional pseudo-Riemannian manifold endowed with a metric and a connection - it is straightforward to demonstrate mathematically that, if you were to eliminate any one of these four dimensions, gravity as we observe it in the real universe could not exist. Also, the QFTs of the Standard Model would no longer work the way they do, and you end up with something that no longer resembles the universe as we see it.
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    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    MODERATOR NOTE : Moved to Personal Theories.
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  9. #8  
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    That papers current space time is the 4th dimension. It is not represented in the same units (degrees) although it is what those other things are fabricated into, based purely on some documents I have read. Hopefully some more veteran member on here can post more critique on my statements.
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