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Thread: There's something other than life

  1. #1 There's something other than life 
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    So I think there are many types of "self operated mater". What is that? It's a term I made just now for lack of finding a term for this. Anyway this category is exactly what it says, self operated mater. So far I would put Machines and Life as two categories of self operated mater. Perhaps there are many more that we don't know of or even understand the concept of in any way.

    But I have thought of a few possibilities. These possibilities are very rare conditions, although the conditions for life clearly are VERY rare 1 out of infinity. So it is likely there is another form of self operated mater perhaps like the one I am about to list or like I said more likely many more that are concepts I don't even understand. Self Operated Matter doesn't need to evolve to be in the category! That is an application to only a category of self operated mater; life.

    I guess you could say robots already "evolve". You can build a robot that adds more parts to itself and so on with current day technology, this is a very

    Here is one example, that I just thought of real quick


    Some matter forms like a planet and it is coated with some wax and random pieces of matter all around or something. Then a meteor hits and in that weird explosion some very unlikely piece of matter has formed with unique properties. It has the ability to move around in some way perhaps rolling maybe it's a sphere and it rolls powered by the heat it has in some way (heat is energy this is very possible just as possible as life). As it rolls it catches fire by a flame by the meteor it now burns from the wax as it picks up more wax while rolling and heating it up more. The properties of that certain self operated matter are in such a way that after rolling 37 minutes (just a random time example) it will break off a small piece of it that is also self operated. That is reproduction and then that self operated matter picks up more random matter on the planet giving it unique properties (evolution). If the properties that the self operated matter damaged it permanently it would be no longer self operating. What does that mean? To use that usually means "dead" but that's a term only for life. This is some other unique form of matter that doesn't have a name yet so I just say it's no longer self operated. This process continues and more and more are created as they evolve into more advanced balls that can reproduce quicker and last longer etc. That is not some science fiction crap. If you really think about life it is the most lucky chance we had. Years of evolution from such simple single cell organisms due to the extremely rare chance for those conditions. For the extremely rare chance earth has all of its properties. For the extremely rare chance we evolved in this certain way simply determined by the laws of physics. It's quite amazing simply (not simple at all) all organisms and even humans were predetermined by the laws of physics. Evolution is the laws of physics working their magic over years and this is where we are now in this process. So now that life is known to be very rare, the following possibility that I will finally get back to sorry for the wait doesn't seem very unlikely.

    I really don't like applying the word evolution to self operated matter that isn't life though. It just seems like a life term.


    This is just an idea I had, I know it might be hard to see that there are more possibilities of self operated matter that what we know now but I hope this perhaps give you another view on it.

    Of course none of this know if any of our predictions are correct that's why they are hypothesis. So let me know if you think this is a viable possibility. Please point out flaws in it and I would love to attempt to answer them.


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    Consciousness is not a requirement of self operated matter like some believe.


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    After learning a little bit more about electromagnetic radiation (I think it is) light is only a small area what of these new forms of matter "evolve" I have using that word. And can "see" by AM waves that originate around the planet. Think that sounds crazy? Bats use sound to that same thing. Who says these non living self operated matter can't emit am waves or wave that bounces back to map the area. Far greater then our abilities.

    This is VERY possible
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  5. #4  
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    Define life at an atomic level.
    Life is a wooly concept and it lacks meaning at fine scales.
    Even at the scale of viruses and prions (malignant proteins) it is an indefinite term.

    edit:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Definitions
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    Well I don't have a definition of life and that's the thing, I don't really care much about life I believe we should be searching not only for "goldylox planet" but any planet that has the means of being either a self operated piece of matter itself or containing self operated matter.

    Perhaps I should add some terms as to what "Self operated Matter" really is and people can critique it.

    Some I think of are:

    Sustainable (maybe doesn't have to be)
    Self Operated
    Matter that "does something"



    I think "self operated matter" is a great new term I made because of it's simplicity and powerful concept. I really think it should be critiqued and used.


    Everyone thinks about searching for other forms of life, no one has any idea of the concept of self operated matter which due to plain mathematical probability does seem VERY likely.



    This will be a huge step for us, what if we find a planet that has a system of balls that are being moved around the planet for some reason possibly due to magnetic force or some force we as humans are even unaware of.

    All very likely, but I don't want to make assumptions we already have two proven so I am going to have to go with a system powered by solar energy or another system that is just consuming it's own matter in a nuclear reaction (suns I would consider them self operated matter) or some other form that like I said we are unaware of.
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    Having been triggered to interest by your rambling thoughts. How can I help you understand that what you do not..
    You are perfectly entitled to table here a idea.. and you have..
    and that I have tried to understand you is it's self, been a mission impossible task.
    Astrophysics can PROVE ( not guess ) what brought together that which became this planet.. That on the surface of it so did the environment become a place where life as we know it has evolved.. Yes we have been very fortunate in that the elements were available and the rule we call the 'Goldilocks zone' have been applied.. This life form which we have become, thrives in these conditions..
    It does not need to be so. Your rambling quest for a 'self operated..' is wast full as none does exist. Everything has reason and cause..
    It's just we may not yet have found all the why's and how's.. In the quest to prevail the life form becomes increasingly complex.. The larger brain and opposing thumb.. gave us a chance to endure.. I saw you use the '1, in a infinity'.. That I would argue with..
    A Planet of balls will not be found.. Not wax and bits.. no. The rules of physics as we have learned of them can be found across the cosmos abundantly.. Conditions such as we have here are rare yes.. but hardly impossible.. Some deviations can be tolerated and life can be different.. Imagine if you will what might have evolved if there never was a land mass area. A planet of oceans could just as likely develop a species that advances to electronics and tools to fly with.. Things would be different.. yes. It does not need to be like this.
    ~ To another aspect of your thinking.. We are on the cusp of developing the smart machine.. That can design it's own improvements and undertake them.. That we could find a alien planet that has developed differently to this one.. I would expect.
    There you are.. I trust to have added some confusion to your thoughts..
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    So far I would put Machines and Life as two categories of self operated mater.
    What makes you think machines fall into the category of "self-operated matter"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Consciousness is not a requirement of self operated matter like some believe.
    Did anyone claim it was?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    So far I would put Machines and Life as two categories of self operated mater.
    What makes you think machines fall into the category of "self-operated matter"?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Consciousness is not a requirement of self operated matter like some believe.
    Did anyone claim it was?
    Well I chose to put machines as a category under this term as they seem to be self operated pieces of matter. Regardless of how they were created in most cases (human made). We even have the technology to have machines make more machines (it happens everyday in car factories). So I guess you could say machines are already advanced forms of self operated matter. With assistance from living organisms such as ourselves they are able to reproduce.

    With today's technology even I could easily make a self reproducing machine.

    No one claimed that it was, that was my mistake. I was meaning to say that consciousness is an attribute of a category of self operated matter (life) not all self operated matter. Kind of like a square can be a rectangle but a rectangle doesn't have to be a square and it doesn't have to be a rectangle to be a shape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Having been triggered to interest by your rambling thoughts. How can I help you understand that what you do not..
    You are perfectly entitled to table here a idea.. and you have..
    and that I have tried to understand you is it's self, been a mission impossible task.
    Astrophysics can PROVE ( not guess ) what brought together that which became this planet.. That on the surface of it so did the environment become a place where life as we know it has evolved.. Yes we have been very fortunate in that the elements were available and the rule we call the 'Goldilocks zone' have been applied.. This life form which we have become, thrives in these conditions..
    It does not need to be so. Your rambling quest for a 'self operated..' is wast full as none does exist. Everything has reason and cause..
    It's just we may not yet have found all the why's and how's.. In the quest to prevail the life form becomes increasingly complex.. The larger brain and opposing thumb.. gave us a chance to endure.. I saw you use the '1, in a infinity'.. That I would argue with..
    A Planet of balls will not be found.. Not wax and bits.. no. The rules of physics as we have learned of them can be found across the cosmos abundantly.. Conditions such as we have here are rare yes.. but hardly impossible.. Some deviations can be tolerated and life can be different.. Imagine if you will what might have evolved if there never was a land mass area. A planet of oceans could just as likely develop a species that advances to electronics and tools to fly with.. Things would be different.. yes. It does not need to be like this.
    ~ To another aspect of your thinking.. We are on the cusp of developing the smart machine.. That can design it's own improvements and undertake them.. That we could find a alien planet that has developed differently to this one.. I would expect.
    There you are.. I trust to have added some confusion to your thoughts..

    You make many assumptions that we understand the laws of physics and the universe completely. For all we know the laws of physics themselves may change depending on conditions. We can't explain simple things such today so how can you make the assumption that we know the contents of other planets? We don't even know all the life forms on EARTH alone.


    "Your rambling quest for a 'self operated..' is wast full as none does exist. Everything has reason and cause.."

    Perhaps everything has a reason and cause, but we don't know all of those reasons that's why scientists are still and will be researching for what I can see to be indefinitely.


    Also, you say none exist, that is really a close minded statement. Again you are assuming based on 1 planet or solar system how every other solar system will be. Also I already gave you a few examples of self operated matter WE ALREADY FOUND within EARTH itself.

    1) Machines! Machines themselves are still relatively new to humans, people just one thousand years ago wouldn't even have the idea of a concept of a machine. It is VERY likely that we will make another breakthrough in the next thousand years of a concept that we don't even know.

    2) The Sun, it's a huge ball of self operated matter that consumes itself.

    These are just a few of likely many kinds of self operated matter.

    I am not making assumptions, I am making statements based off of evidence that we ALREADY have.



    I am not saying there IS other kinds of self operated matter, for all we know we are the only life and these are the only forms of self operated matter ever. But using basic logic scientists and myself generally agree that it is likely that other kinds of self operated matter exist. Most scientists think that it is life. But I think there are many more and that is the whole reason of this post.

    To open up the idea of a whole new concept that isn't just a hypothesis, but claims based on actual evidence you can see in your life today



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  11. #10  
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    Again please post any critique at all to what I have said. I think my claims are reasonable and scientifically not just possible but very likely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Well I chose to put machines as a category under this term as they seem to be self operated pieces of matter.
    And yet you haven't yet specified exactly what you mean by "self-operated".
    Machines don't fall into the same category as humans/ animals.

    So I guess you could say machines are already advanced forms of self operated matter.
    YOU might say that, but lacking any sort of definition I certainly wouldn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Well I chose to put machines as a category under this term as they seem to be self operated pieces of matter.
    And yet you haven't yet specified exactly what you mean by "self-operated".
    Machines don't fall into the same category as humans/ animals.

    So I guess you could say machines are already advanced forms of self operated matter.
    YOU might say that, but lacking any sort of definition I certainly wouldn't.
    Self Operated Matter is a term that I made, as there was lack of a term currently to categorize self operated matter.

    I state in my posts that I don't have any rules of self operated matter yet and was looking for someone to offer suggestions/critique it.

    I gave a couple of possible rules that would define what self operated matter is.

    1) Any form of matter that can Exchange or Displace Matter.

    That would be a sun, machine, and all life forms.

    Perhaps you can give some suggestions to the term, it is hard to use a term that hasn't been fully defined so hopefully if this thread gets the attention of many scientists the term "self operated matter" can be formed much better.



    The reason I said they were advanced is that, I can make a program with basic programming ability that is able to solve complex problems that the human brain can't even solve.

    That is pretty powerful, something that isn't life can do some functions that the most advanced life forms we know can't do. So already we can see the potential of self operated matter





    "Machines don't fall into the same category as humans/ animals."


    That's the whole thing! Machines are self operated yet they aren't life. Animals/Humans are forms of life and life is a category under self operated matter

    For example perhaps one category under self operated matter would be machines as I suggested. And then that could divide into many sub categories like "life" does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Again please post any critique at all to what I have said. I think my claims are reasonable and scientifically not just possible but very likely.
    You seem to have some vague, poorly expressed ideas with no supporting evidence. So not very scientific.

    You might be interested in this: Self-organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Is that the sort of thing you are thinking about.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Again please post any critique at all to what I have said. I think my claims are reasonable and scientifically not just possible but very likely.
    You seem to have some vague, poorly expressed ideas with no supporting evidence. So not very scientific.

    You might be interested in this: Self-organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Is that the sort of thing you are thinking about.

    My ideas might be very vague, and poorly expressed due to this concept itself being a very hard one to grasp. Many elite scientists couldn't even grasp the concept of a nuclear reaction just a short time ago.

    That is why I am coming to an open forum with an idea of a powerful concept that does have supporting evidence.


    I have already given several examples of self operated matter that 1) already exists

    2) and even an idea of a potential new form that we haven't observed yet just as an example I am not saying that those circumstances will or will not be there.




    I am making a prediction based on the evidence that we already discovered a few forms of self operated matter that aren't life that many more may exist.




    Believe me I don't want to make any assumptions or conspiracy ideas, I am just basing this claim or idea off evidence that we already have in hope of providing a powerful new concept to the scientific community.
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    This is similar to self organization in a few ways, but this is a whole new concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Self Operated Matter is a term that I made, as there was lack of a term currently to categorize self operated matter.
    I state in my posts that I don't have any rules of self operated matter yet and was looking for someone to offer suggestions/critique it.
    If you haven't defined it how can anyone critique it?

    I gave a couple of possible rules that would define what self operated matter is.
    1) Any form of matter that can Exchange or Displace Matter.
    That would be a sun, machine, and all life forms.
    Why would this class as "self-operated"?

    The reason I said they were advanced is that, I can make a program with basic programming ability that is able to solve complex problems that the human brain can't even solve.
    Only indirectly: (my programming knowledge is somewhat outdated now 1, but humans must have some idea how to solve the problem in order to programme a computer to obtain the solution. Perhaps you mean "can't solve it in a reasonable time".

    That is pretty powerful, something that isn't life can do some functions that the most advanced life forms we know can't do. So already we can see the potential of self operated matter
    Uh, a programme now classes as self-operated matter?

    That's the whole thing! Machines are self operated
    Yet to be shown.


    1 In fact the very first programming I ever did was in Cesil. (And was so long ago I actually had to Google for the name of that language because I'd forgotten it). And it was written on paper to be handed to the computer department, which then put it on punched card to be fed into a computer that took up the entire upper floor of the local college.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Self Operated Matter is a term that I made, as there was lack of a term currently to categorize self operated matter.
    I state in my posts that I don't have any rules of self operated matter yet and was looking for someone to offer suggestions/critique it.
    If you haven't defined it how can anyone critique it?

    I gave a couple of possible rules that would define what self operated matter is.
    1) Any form of matter that can Exchange or Displace Matter.
    That would be a sun, machine, and all life forms.
    Why would this class as "self-operated"?

    The reason I said they were advanced is that, I can make a program with basic programming ability that is able to solve complex problems that the human brain can't even solve.
    Only indirectly: (my programming knowledge is somewhat outdated now 1, but humans must have some idea how to solve the problem in order to programme a computer to obtain the solution. Perhaps you mean "can't solve it in a reasonable time".

    That is pretty powerful, something that isn't life can do some functions that the most advanced life forms we know can't do. So already we can see the potential of self operated matter
    Uh, a programme now classes as self-operated matter?

    That's the whole thing! Machines are self operated
    Yet to be shown.


    1 In fact the very first programming I ever did was in Cesil. (And was so long ago I actually had to Google for the name of that language because I'd forgotten it). And it was written on paper to be handed to the computer department, which then put it on punched card to be fed into a computer that took up the entire upper floor of the local college.

    I have given possible definitions several times throughout this thread.

    Why would it be classified as self operated? You are literally asking why that is the definition of the term. So perhaps you could provide suggestions to a new possible definition of the term instead of asking why I defined it the way I did.

    But I will explain. I wanted to think of a broad statement of self operated matter that would apply to all kinds of self operated matter without applying to anything besides self operated matter.

    Let me critique my original definition.

    1) 1) Any form of matter that can Convert, Transform, or Accelerate Matter.

    I added two new conditions that seemed more fitting. I will put three objects to the test, one object from each of the three already known categories (there may be more and then this will may have to be refined).

    Machines, they can accelerate matter. That may be drill for example.

    Humans, that is self explanatory.

    Stars, convert matter to energy in a nuclear reaction

    While a hammer for example can not convert, transform, or accelerate matter by itself.







    "Uh, a programme now classes as self-operated matter?"

    All a program is, is a series of changes in magnetic direction (commonly know as 1's and 0's) on a hard drive, which is part of a machine which is a category of self operated matter.




    "Yet to be shown."

    Sure thing, the screen you are looking at is a bunch of physical circuits that interprets data and displays that data on the screen in a very fine array of pixels.



    Also machines CAN generate random numbers which is something a human can never do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    I have given possible definitions several times throughout this thread.
    Yet, since it's YOUR term "possible" definitions don't cut it.
    How are WE supposed to know what you're talking about if you can only give "possible" definitions?

    Why would it be classified as self operated? You are literally asking why that is the definition of the term. So perhaps you could provide suggestions to a new possible definition of the term instead of asking why I defined it the way I did.
    Once again: how can I define the term when I have no idea what you mean?

    But I will explain. I wanted to think of a broad statement of self operated matter that would apply to all kinds of self operated matter without applying to anything besides self operated matter.
    In other words your "definition" of "self-operated matter" appears to be "everything that that's not in the category of NOT self-operated matter".
    Not very helpful.

    Let me critique my original definition.
    1) 1) Any form of matter that can Convert, Transform, or Accelerate Matter.
    Why does this class as self-operating?
    If they act on other things why "self"?

    While a hammer for example can not convert, transform, or accelerate matter by itself.
    Nor can a drill.
    It requires human control and operation.

    All a program is, is a series of changes in magnetic direction (commonly know as 1's and 0's) on a hard drive, which is part of a machine which is a category of self operated matter.
    A programme isn't part of the machine: it's a "sub-system".

    Sure thing, the screen you are looking at is a bunch of physical circuits that interprets data and displays that data on the screen in a very fine array of pixels.
    So what?
    Doesn't support your claim. At all.

    Also machines CAN generate random numbers which is something a human can never do.
    Really?
    (And has exactly what to do with your claim?)
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    Then from this I can offer a tree;
    As a self controlling entity. Most life forms with a ability to reproduce are thus acting to better there species..
    Has this got the quality 'self operated..' So you must include plant life as self operated..
    At this point I am sure you can not yet include any machine as self operated.. as a simple disconnect from the power souse disables them.. That may change yet we are still governing the machines.. " Open the door Hale " ~ Sorry Dave, I can not do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Then from this I can offer a tree;
    As a self controlling entity. Most life forms with a ability to reproduce are thus acting to better there species..
    Has this got the quality 'self operated..' So you must include plant life as self operated..
    At this point I am sure you can not yet include any machine as self operated.. as a simple disconnect from the power souse disables them.. That may change yet we are still governing the machines.. " Open the door Hale " ~ Sorry Dave, I can not do that.
    Exactly now you see the power of this concept plants are a form of life so they would be self operated also self operated doesn't mean self sustaining if you unplug our nutrients we break down too. All life is, is a unique arrangement of matter. A sun for example won't burn dower but it would still be considered self operated
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    I have given possible definitions several times throughout this thread.
    Yet, since it's YOUR term "possible" definitions don't cut it.
    How are WE supposed to know what you're talking about if you can only give "possible" definitions?

    Why would it be classified as self operated? You are literally asking why that is the definition of the term. So perhaps you could provide suggestions to a new possible definition of the term instead of asking why I defined it the way I did.
    Once again: how can I define the term when I have no idea what you mean?

    But I will explain. I wanted to think of a broad statement of self operated matter that would apply to all kinds of self operated matter without applying to anything besides self operated matter.
    In other words your "definition" of "self-operated matter" appears to be "everything that that's not in the category of NOT self-operated matter".
    Not very helpful.

    Let me critique my original definition.
    1) 1) Any form of matter that can Convert, Transform, or Accelerate Matter.
    Why does this class as self-operating?
    If they act on other things why "self"?

    While a hammer for example can not convert, transform, or accelerate matter by itself.
    Nor can a drill.
    It requires human control and operation.

    All a program is, is a series of changes in magnetic direction (commonly know as 1's and 0's) on a hard drive, which is part of a machine which is a category of self operated matter.
    A programme isn't part of the machine: it's a "sub-system".

    Sure thing, the screen you are looking at is a bunch of physical circuits that interprets data and displays that data on the screen in a very fine array of pixels.
    So what?
    Doesn't support your claim. At all.

    Also machines CAN generate random numbers which is something a human can never do.
    Really?
    (And has exactly what to do with your claim?)

    You stated earlier that machines aren't advanced forms of self operated matter and that humans can do anything a machine can do you seem to bring up irrelevant points yet when I even answer them you ask why I do. Please tetras your posts I have already answered many of those questions.



    i love critique but not useless degrading of an idea lets keep the thread on topic please
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    You stated earlier that machines aren't advanced forms of self operated matter and that humans can do anything a machine can do you seem to bring up irrelevant points yet when I even answer them you ask why I do. Please tetras your posts I have already answered many of those questions.
    Yeah, well done.
    You have so far failed completely to support any argument you have made and STILL haven't come up with a working definition of "self-operating".
    One more science-ignorant crank to be assigned to the ignore list.

    i love critique but not useless degrading of an idea lets keep the thread on topic please
    You've written this incorrectly.
    What you should have said was: questioning of a useless idea.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    I have given possible definitions several times throughout this thread.
    Yet, since it's YOUR term "possible" definitions don't cut it.
    How are WE supposed to know what you're talking about if you can only give "possible" definitions?

    Why would it be classified as self operated? You are literally asking why that is the definition of the term. So perhaps you could provide suggestions to a new possible definition of the term instead of asking why I defined it the way I did.
    Once again: how can I define the term when I have no idea what you mean?

    But I will explain. I wanted to think of a broad statement of self operated matter that would apply to all kinds of self operated matter without applying to anything besides self operated matter.
    In other words your "definition" of "self-operated matter" appears to be "everything that that's not in the category of NOT self-operated matter".
    Not very helpful.

    Let me critique my original definition.
    1) 1) Any form of matter that can Convert, Transform, or Accelerate Matter.
    Why does this class as self-operating?
    If they act on other things why "self"?

    While a hammer for example can not convert, transform, or accelerate matter by itself.
    Nor can a drill.
    It requires human control and operation.

    All a program is, is a series of changes in magnetic direction (commonly know as 1's and 0's) on a hard drive, which is part of a machine which is a category of self operated matter.
    A programme isn't part of the machine: it's a "sub-system".

    Sure thing, the screen you are looking at is a bunch of physical circuits that interprets data and displays that data on the screen in a very fine array of pixels.
    So what?
    Doesn't support your claim. At all.

    Also machines CAN generate random numbers which is something a human can never do.
    Really?
    (And has exactly what to do with your claim?)
    The physical circuit point was made as you stated earlier that programs are not part of the machine when they directly are. I understand why you are frustrated with the definition of this word. That is why I have come to an open form to get the best feedback I have proposed a few possibilities and some users seem to understand the concept hopefully I can explain it better and you could give some suggestions to new definitions etc
    I think my argument is very valid as I have wen able to justify every question

    some machines are self initiated some are not but some are self operated. For example a fan with a solar panel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    You stated earlier that machines aren't advanced forms of self operated matter and that humans can do anything a machine can do you seem to bring up irrelevant points yet when I even answer them you ask why I do. Please tetras your posts I have already answered many of those questions.
    Yeah, well done.
    You have so far failed completely to support any argument you have made and STILL haven't come up with a working definition of "self-operating".
    One more science-ignorant crank to be assigned to the ignore list.

    i love critique but not useless degrading of an idea lets keep the thread on topic please
    You've written this incorrectly.
    What you should have said was: questioning of a useless idea.

    Science ignorant? That is very rude and ironic I have based this whole post off I evidence I hasn't made any claims based of fiction so for you to say this idea is useless is very ignorant instead please find some scientific flaws to the term.
    Ecen if my definition is not good as it stands which it likely isn' I am trying to share the concept to be refined by people such a yourself
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    I have conpletely supported many arguments I give many examples and possible definitions already I have also tested those pbjects against the definition and it seems to pass the criteria
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    If it appears anything j am sayin is wrong and fiction please let me know mineralogy don't want to be some conspiracy theorist I want to make claims based on fact alone and I believe I have done by so far


    am am in my phone sorry for typos
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    Yet to see any substantial evidence proving this is false.
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  29. #28  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    ...and you gave presented none "proving" it is true despite your claims :shrug:
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    ...and you gave presented none "proving" it is true despite your claims :shrug:

    It's a category I have created, I have already proven two parts to this category; Life, Machines. There is this possibility I later state of another form of self operated matter. It's on the powerful concept of something many people do in everyday life.


    When we think of stuff we think of it as living or not living (dead). So if a chicken was killed you think it's not living. When you think of an engine running it's not living, it's something other than that. It is the concept of there is something more than life. It's everywhere, think of a missile that is defective. It's not dead, but it is no longer self operated matter so perhaps a new term is given for that "state" of self operated matter. A chicken that is live and a chicken that is dead is just different states/arrangements of matter.


    So there is nothing to prove really, it's a concept for a term that is MUCH needed in science, and I have supplied proof of why scientifically.
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    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    I think you need to learn what constitutes evidence (or proof as you call it) in a scientific discussion. Your blend if vague ill-defined terms and waffle isn't even close
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    I think you need to learn what constitutes evidence (or proof as you call it) in a scientific discussion. Your blend if vague ill-defined terms and waffle isn't even close
    The term is a term, that I made. How is it possible that it could ever be wrong? It's simply a term not even a theory, and what comes with this term is a powerful concept that I shared and proved. The whole concept is there is something more than life, if you can't accept that in the face of evidence like you said earlier you are simply hesitant to the new information.


    I have already stated that machines follow the conditions of my term yet don't have the same attributes as life meaning machines and life have similarities but aren't the same. That similarity being they are self operated matter.
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    See my reply in the other thread, waffle and hand waving is not evidence... As a scientist I am appropriately conservative, I am not hesitant to "new information" but time-wasting unsupported speculation. As you don't seem to be able to grasp what evidence is or how to introduce an argument scientifically and I have a paper to finish (which is evidence based and describes stuff that actually happens) I'm done here...
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    See my reply in the other thread, waffle and hand waving is not evidence... As a scientist I am appropriately conservative, I am not hesitant to "new information" but time-wasting unsupported speculation. As you don't seem to be able to grasp what evidence is or how to introduce an argument scientifically and I have a paper to finish (which is evidence based and describes stuff that actually happens) I'm done here...
    What do you mean unsupported? You keep on saying this despite the constant supporting points that I make.
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  35. #34  
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    Your "supporting points" are as equally unsupported as the claims you say they support. You are building castles in the air, there is no foundation to anything you have said. Now, I've wasted enough time on this nonsense, mind how you go...
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Your "supporting points" are as equally unsupported as the claims you say they support. You are building castles in the air, there is no foundation to anything you have said. Now, I've wasted enough time on this nonsense, mind how you go...
    You are literally making your posts from the proof. You are using a machine right now? I don't understand your thought process. I have made criteria that apply to machines and life, two UNDENIABLE things. How is that building castles in thin air? Those are two things that everyone agrees exist.


    You can't bully me out of scientific evidence as it is refutable.
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  37. #36  
    Bullshit Intolerant PhDemon's Avatar
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    You've just proved my point, thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    You've just proved my point, thanks.

    In what ways? Could you quit making these remarks and communicate in an intelligent way. I understand you believe you are very smart and think I am very stupid but instead of posting those useless comments post some constructive feedback!


    I am all for critiquing false information, but you don't even do that you just insult anything that isn't exactly the way you see it, if you don't quit doing that I am going to have to ask that you stop posting on my threads.
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  39. #38  
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    My statements are very clear you just seem to choose not to understand them because they don't fit with what you've made up, this shows how well you take criticism as does your response to the ducks post above :shrug: and by the way it's a public forum you don't get a say in who posts in which threads but I'll voluntarily stop responding to your nonsense as it seems you cannot or will not see why your claims are just that, claims with no support other than your waffle...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    My statements are very clear you just seem to choose not to understand them because they don't fit with what you've made up, this shows how well you take criticism as does your response to the ducks post above :shrug: and by the way it's a public forum you don't get a say in who posts in which threads but I'll voluntarily stop responding to your nonsense as it seems you cannot or will not see why your claims are just that, claims with no support other than your waffle...
    I have created my own term, meaning I can assign whatever definition to it that I like?

    Based on my current definition the only thing that is debatable is whether or not those two categories exist and clearly they do.


    It is clear that you can post anywhere, yet I request that if you aren't going to help you do not post here. I LOVE knowing when I am wrong, but just telling me I am wrong does nothing. Please inform me so I don't make the same mistakes twice.



    How is it possible my idea is wrong is machines exist today?



    Please teach me so I can become more educated if I am wrong.
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  41. #40  
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    If I make up a term I can assign any meaning I want to it? Then I'll say dispringemer means "colorless ideas sleeping furiously." Now that I've defined it that way, can I use it in an argument? Can I say my term is correct? Can I even say it's meaningful? I'd have to say it's not even wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster View Post
    If I make up a term I can assign any meaning I want to it? Then I'll say dispringemer means "colorless ideas sleeping furiously." Now that I've defined it that way, can I use it in an argument? Can I say my term is correct? Can I even say it's meaningful? I'd have to say it's not even wrong.

    Correct you could make your own term, but the whole point of this thread is that my term was not fabricated for no reason and it is meaningful based on the fact there are multiple forms of self operated matter. Life and Machines are two that we know of is my whole point.


    I am trying to say we need to look at the bigger picture not just "the search for extraterrestrial life" there is more than that...
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    Hi ScienceNoob

    What you are referring to as self-organised matter is in other interpretations referred to as organised complexity which in life's case is found to run counter to physical processes of entropy. Erwin Schrodinger in his book "What is life?" states that one of life's peculiar characteristics is that it decreases or maintains its entropy by feeding on negative entropy. This is what Schrodinger distinguished as setting life apart from other forms of matter organisation. Those working in the field of themodynamics and biochemistry frequently encounter life's ability using subsystems to go against the grain of any isolated system that trends towards increased entropy. In biochemistry we see a lot of this happening through the development of subsystems through partial system seperation (eg. using cell membranes etc.) that allow for an energy gradient that can be used to create work and increase energy content in a subsystem therefore enabling physical processes to run counter to general entropic direction.

    Now there are some isolated examples outside living organisms where natural physical processes seem to go counter to the entropic trend, but inevitably they are found to represent smaller subsystems of a wider closed system. While you may argue that machines also have this ability, on deeper scrutiny you inevitably you find they are 'designed' or 'programmed' by human intervention to do so, unless we are talking about artificial intelligence and the potential for machines to adapt to novel new conditions. This still seems to be a fair way off.

    More on negentropy here.
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    ~ ScienceNoob. ~ In order to understand your 'Self operated mater' you mentioned the Sun.
    That near to us star.. We study and learn much of.
    That pressure of mass in gravitational flux..Converts mass from one state to another..
    Hydrogen into helium at the core of that mass. The term might be fusion.. that other words like fission and Nuclear energies..
    Regardless.. what are you looking for. Is it other things that run them selves.. Space is full of them. Billions of stars. No shortage of self driven mass conversion.. 'But we know all of this.' What is it you want to claim to tell us of ? In your OP you said something of man not being able to generate random sets of numbers.. what ?
    ~ That by study and science have we formed the opinions of the rules of physics.. For the purest science holds the only key to the questions you seem to ask.. Please apply some common sense to your thoughts and try again to tell me of what you speak ?

    Study a little of.. negentropy It may help..
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    Thank you for the constructive posts! I will try to respond to them as best as I can, and I think you are beginning to see what I mean. For example like you said the sun it does a process although I don't know if I would totally consider that a category of this term.


    I am trying to say that the big thing NASA always says "Search for extraterrestrial life".

    What if we found a planet full of machines that was set into progress by certain circumstances, just like life was. All life is, is a very unique arrangement of matter just like a machine so this is very likely.



    I hope you see what I mean and I don't sound crazy.
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    Still no evidence against this.
    Newbie to Science, trying to educate myself on this forum and further my scientific knowledge.

    I like to ask a ton of questions so please be understanding!

    I like to think of new stuff and in new ways.
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  47. #46  
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    No evidence for it either see post #34.
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  48. #47  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScienceNoob View Post
    Still no evidence against this.
    And you, apparently, are still clueless.
    It doesn't work like that.
    You have to provide evidence for your contention.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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