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Thread: "SCHIZOPHRENIA" - an illness profoundly linked to our ability to generate the event we call perception in response to more ambiguous stimuli?

  1. #1 "SCHIZOPHRENIA" - an illness profoundly linked to our ability to generate the event we call perception in response to more ambiguous stimuli? 
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    For whatever it is worth this is an ongoing attempt to understand an illness most people know very little about:

    Professor Tim Crow's theory suggests that schizophrenia is the price we pay for language and I wonder if the exposure to stimulus (non-verbal) - stimulus (verbal) contingencies (classical conditioning) when you with a short delay are able to restore a verbal message or interpret what subjectively seems to be a verbal message can have such a profound effect that some people develop a mental illness.

    Quote:"...classical conditioning is far more subtle and relevant to complex human cognitive-emotional behavior than one might first realize..." (p. 4) Source: The Imbalanced Brain: From Normal Behavior To Schizophrenia (2000) by Stephen Grossberg

    -------SUMMARY-------

    Approximately one percent of the world's population (almost 70 million people) are at some point in their lives just like me right now (several voices are commenting on what I write and think) forced to somehow cope with what they experience due to what can best be described as an integration disorder which depend on both environmental and genetic factors.

    The alien voices I often hear in response to non-verbal environmental sounds such as traffic noise or the pitch and timbre of a distorted maybe distant voice "retain certain acoustic features that were present in the original signal" and are no doubt just like when I hear and with awareness control my inner voice verbal thoughts heard out loud. (One of the most influential cognitive models of auditory verbal hallucinations acknowledge the fact that people are able to hear their own thoughts as alien voices, but...)

    Some people who hear their own thoughts as alien voices in response to non-verbal environmental sounds are definitely just like me able to generate the perception of an external voice "that retain certain acoustic features that were present in the original signal" and what if each and every one of us are able to use covert speech to generate the perception of an external voice "that retain certain acoustic features that were present in the original signal" when we need to restore and better distinguish a verbal message?

    Quote: "In schizophrenia, functional hallucinations are defined as those that occur when a patient simultaneously receives a real stimulus in the perceptual field concerned (e.g., hallucinated voices heard simultaneously with—and specific to—the real sound of running water)... ...Another hallucinated voice occurred simultaneously with actual speech uttered by television announcers. The semantic content was the same as that of the "engine voice," but the "television voice" sounded human, exactly like the real voice of the television announcer who was speaking at the same time... ...In this patient, we observed a direct relationship between the timbre, prosody, and pitch of real environmental sounds and simultaneously perceived auditory hallucinations... ...This case suggests a further hypothesis: normal activation in the auditory system, which corresponds to neural encoding of natural-sound object and location characteristics, may be misinterpreted, leading to the false perception of functional auditory hallucinations that retain certain acoustic features that were present in the original signal..." Source: Letter to the Editor, Characteristics of Functional Auditory Hallucinations by Michael D. Hunter, M.R.C.Psych., and Peter W.R. Woodruff, Ph.D., M.R.C.P., M.R.c.Psych. Sheffield, U.K. Am J Psychiatry 161:923, May 2004

    From normal behavior to schizophrenia:

    To frequently reward a behavior which generates the exposure to stimulus (non-verbal) - stimulus (verbal) contingencies when you with a short delay are able to restore a verbal message or interpret what subjectively seems to be a verbal message can establish or maintain a tendency to interpret what people normally ignore!

    Any signal that consistently precedes a meal, such as a clock indicating that it is time for dinner or an appetizer, may cause us to feel hungrier than before the signal because we learn to expect a meal in response to CS and non-verbal environmental sounds that consistently precedes a verbal illusion (information) can like any signal that consistently precedes a meal become a conditioned reinforcer that can activate a drive representation D. What you learn to expect in response to a signal that consistently precedes a reinforcer can motivate an operant behavior which has been established and fine tuned because it satisfies the need to access what you learn to expect...

    What can increase the exposure to stimulus (non-verbal) - stimulus (verbal) contingencies like these?

    What will make it necessary to restore a verbal message (the exposure to noise and some hearing impairments), what will increase the exposure to more ambiguous voices (some urban environments), what may increase the need to access a verbal message (sensory deprivation, traumatic events, solitude or whatever gives you the sense of not belonging in a social context) and what will diminish our ability to generate an act of will with which we are able to consciously control covert speech with regards to a certain goal (sleep deprivation and stress can impair our ability to inhibit a verbal response and this may generate the event we call perception in response to more ambiguous stimuli).

    Can the exposure to stimulus (non-verbal) - stimulus (verbal) contingencies (classical conditioning) like these have such a profound effect that some people develop a mental illness?

    "Non-clinical populations usually experience voices with a neutral or even positive emotional content" while those who are diagnosed with schizophrenia more often experience voices expressed with a negative emotional content!

    I have tried to understand why some people do rather well while others are diagnosed with a mental illness in the light of the assumption that people who experience voices expressed with a neutral or even positive emotional content are trying to hear the voice they are about to produce while those who experience voices expressed with a negative emotional content are trying to avoid the voice they are about to produce by paying more attention to what they are able to hear more objectively.

    People who consistently avoid the event they fear will continue to expect a fearfull event (phobia) and people who selectively are able to avoid some of the voices they hear by revealing a mismatch will continue to expect to hear the voices they were able to avoid! (A verbal illusion can be revealed when an increase in attention (incentive motivational signals) takes the sound you interpret out of its peripheral existence without generating a match between a top-down sensory expectation and bottom-up sensory signals!)...

    The road to recovery:

    The occurrences of a conditioned response
    (CR - when a conditioned reinforcer triggers the need to access a sensory consequence) will eventually decrease or disappear if a conditioned reinforcer (a previously neutral stimulus) due to the ability to reveal a mismatch no longer is paired with a primary reinforcer (information brought to awareness when the event we call perception is generated in response to a previously neutral stimulus), but only in people who frequently are able to reveal a mismatch while they are trying to attend the sensory consequence they are about to produce!...


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    Is there a point here?


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    Stefan - It takes a degree of courage to admit to being schizophrenic. Don't become dependent on the multiplicity of the thoughts in your mind. If you are a theist pray to God to put a halt to the multiplicity, and to have a single thought, your own thought, at anyone time from now on.

    If you are atheist and require medication and help, take it but don't become dependent on your voices.

    Is the treatment working?
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    If you have schizophrenia, then go see a doctor. Don't listen to RobbityBob -- prayer isn't gonna cut it. (Although how can you know you are schizophrenic when you haven't been to a doctor is beyond me.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    If you have schizophrenia, then go see a doctor. Don't listen to RobbityBob -- prayer isn't gonna cut it. (Although how can you know you are schizophrenic when you haven't been to a doctor is beyond me.)
    Stefan might have recognised his own symptoms and looked it up on the internet. People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    Sometimes these episodes are brought on by the study of religion and your brain gets confused, so I do think in those situations where religion has brought on the symptoms prayer may do the trick. Obviously stefan can immediately tell it if it is working, for he was aware of the schizophrenic effects as he was writing the OP.
    Approximately one percent of the world's population (almost 70 million people) are at some point in their lives just like me right now(several voices are commenting on what I write and think)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    That might be fine with some kinds of physical ailments -- like a rash. But mental disorders require doctors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    That might be fine with some kinds of physical ailments -- like a rash. But mental disorders require doctors.
    I edited my post above.

    Being aware he can alter his behaviour and get it under control.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    That might be fine with some kinds of physical ailments -- like a rash. But mental disorders require doctors.
    Meningococcal meningitis starts as a rash and kids can be dead in 24 hours ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    That might be fine with some kinds of physical ailments -- like a rash. But mental disorders require doctors.
    Meningococcal meningitis starts as a rash and kids can be dead in 24 hours ...
    So, what's your point?

    You are the one advocating prayer and self-diagnosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chucknorium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People are self-diagnosing all the time today.
    That might be fine with some kinds of physical ailments -- like a rash. But mental disorders require doctors.
    Meningococcal meningitis starts as a rash and kids can be dead in 24 hours ...
    So, what's your point?

    You are the one advocating prayer and self-diagnosis.
    I was saying to him to take his medication but if the condition was brought on by a study of religion pray that the voices stop.
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    Well the Christian religion is probably a poor choice for asking to cure schizophrenia, what with all the 3-being-1 thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I was saying to him to take his medication but if the condition was brought on by a study of religion pray that the voices stop.
    I dont know whats worse - the fact you actually stated there is a possibility that schizophrenia has been brought on by religion or that you advocate prayer to stop it..... Stop offering this guy solutions you do not know what you are talking about.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Stefan - although Tim Crow has done a lot of good work in classifying schizophrenia his theory of language being the cause of it is rather outdated and probably wrong. Evidence is now mounting for proprioception and corollary discharge dysfunctions with possible causes being developmental and familial predisposition.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Well the Christian religion is probably a poor choice for asking to cure schizophrenia, what with all the 3-being-1 thing.
    If it of a religious origin he can use whatever religion it was that got him there.
    Would there be any difference in incidence in schizophrenia between the religious groups?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I was saying to him to take his medication but if the condition was brought on by a study of religion pray that the voices stop.
    I dont know whats worse - the fact you actually stated there is a possibility that schizophrenia has been brought on by religion or that you advocate prayer to stop it..... Stop offering this guy solutions you do not know what you are talking about.
    How do you know I don't know what I'm talking about?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_schizophrenia
    This has led some researchers to question whether schizophrenia leads an individual to become more religious, or if intense religiosity leads to schizophrenia.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; May 18th, 2014 at 02:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    If it of a religious origin he can use whatever religion it was that got him there.
    Would there be any difference in incidence in schizophrenia between the religious groups?
    Stop talking because what you advised the OP is downright dangerous.

    How do you know I don't know what I'm talking about?
    Religion and schizophrenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    You can't read. It's not caused by religion. It's about people who had 'religious experiences' that were not religious but were in fact schizophrenic episodes.
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    There is no more significance in the links between religion and schizophrenia and music festivals and schizophrenia. Many things can trigger an episode and the common link is the individuals' susceptibility not the activity. What I object to is your potentially harmful advice when you are probably not qualified to give that advice. A quote from your own link - 'It would seem that the use of religion can either be a helpful method of coping with the disorder, or it can be a significant hindrance in recovery'.

    In other words whether religion works or not depends on the individual - you cant be advising someone to go and pray as a potential solution because its also potentially harmful. Thats why I say you dont know what you are talking about.
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    There is no more significance in the links between religion and schizophrenia and music festivals and schizophrenia. Many things can trigger an episode and the common link is the individuals' susceptibility not the activity. What I object to is your potentially harmful advice when you are probably not qualified to give that advice. A quote from your own link - 'It would seem that the use of religion can either be a helpful method of coping with the disorder, or it can be a significant hindrance in recovery'.

    In other words whether religion works or not depends on the individual - you cant be advising someone to go and pray as a potential solution because its also potentially harmful. Thats why I say you dont know what you are talking about.
    Are you qualified?

    What I read was that religion would be unhelpful in those that weren't religious e.g. someone who has an atheist background, it would be wrong to ask them to pray for healing, but a person who has gone overboard in their religiosity might be helped if they were asked to pray that the voices stop.
    It depends on the individual and I made that clear from the beginning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Are you qualified?

    What I read was that religion would be unhelpful in those that weren't religious e.g. someone who has an atheist background, it would be wrong to ask them to pray for healing, but a person who has gone overboard in their religiosity might be helped if they were asked to pray that the voices stop.
    It depends on the individual and I made that clear from the beginning.
    What you did was reprehensible. Someone in a possibly vulnerable position and you dole out advice like that? It is dangerous and absolutely incorrect.
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    Did you hear the one about the guy who didn't believe schizophrenia was real and who's son died because they relied on relgion rather than medicine?

    His name is John Travolta.
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    With all the 'to ing' and 'fro ing'.. Yet ANOTHER religious thread... sigh.. yet I respond to argue we should not comment on illnesses of the mind when we do not know the mind of the # poster 'Stefen' His 3 rd post here.. ~ and welcome ~
    His mind is his.. that he asks a question of understanding and talks of the subject as a well informed patent should.
    I do not see us as well equipped to guide this subject on track.. only that I can offer very little of substance other than seek out that which you trust as Your goals and pursue them.. Make time in your life for yourself. seek out that which makes YOU happy and to hell with all else.. If that involves a religious slant then so be it.. What works for you, works for you. "Talk with professionals" in the field of this disorder.. The only voice in your head should be the one 'You'.. but telling you this is hardly helping you find that is it ?...
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    I am not sure what Stefan's purpose in posting this "question" was but he is giving quotes regarding some serious research into schizophrenia.
    From the schizophrenia forum.
    RESEARCHER INFORMATION
    First Name: Timothy
    Last Name: Crow
    Title: Professor
    Advanced Degrees: PhD, FRCP, FRCPsych, FMedSci
    Affiliation: SANE Prince of Wales International Centre
    Street Address 1: Warneford Hospital,
    Street Address 2: Roosevelt Drive
    City: Oxford
    Zip/Postal Code: OX£ 7JX
    Country/Territory: United Kingdom
    Phone: 0044 1865 455917
    Fax: 0044 1865 455922
    Email Address:
    Disclosure:
    (view policy)
    Member reports no financial or other potential conflicts of interest. [Last Modified: 23 October 2005]

    Schizophrenia Research Forum: Researcher Profile - Timothy Crow



    Stefan's post is also a copy of a post by Stefan on the Lingforum site in 2007 where he was able to respond to a small number of comments until 2011.
    LINGUISTICS :: View topic - Speech perception and some symptoms of schizophrenia.

    Wikipedia also has a short article on Prof Tim Crow.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Crow

    I think it might be better to try dealing with the content of the op message instead of the content of the poster of it.
    Last edited by dan hunter; May 18th, 2014 at 08:01 AM.
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    Stefan is a spammer and now banned. (the exact phrases from the OP are all over the Internet)
    --

    There is are some pretty well developed hypothesis about a neurological basis between hyper-religiosity and milder forms of schizophrenia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Did you hear the one about the guy who didn't believe schizophrenia was real and who's son died because they relied on relgion rather than medicine?

    His name is John Travolta.

    So what did the kid die from? Is this the case you are talking about?

    John Travolta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Son’s death

    In 2009, Travolta's son, Jett, died while on a Christmas vacation in The Bahamas.[41][42] A Bahamian death certificate was issued, attributing the cause of death to a seizure.[43] Jett, who had a troubled history of seizures, reportedly suffered from Kawasaki disease at the age of two.[44][45] Travolta confirmed speculation that his son had autism and suffered regular seizures and immediately made his public statements while giving testimony after a multi-million dollar extortion plot against him in connection to his son's death.[46] After a mistrial, Travolta dropped the charges and has credited his immediate family and faith in helping him survive the premature death of his son and in moving forward with his film career.[47][48][49]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Well the Christian religion is probably a poor choice for asking to cure schizophrenia, what with all the 3-being-1 thing.
    I do not think you should underestimate the power in words and belief just because you do not use it. What I think RobbityBob is saying is correct. If the illness started with religion it could very well be healed by prayer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Did you hear the one about the guy who didn't believe schizophrenia was real and who's son died because they relied on relgion rather than medicine?

    His name is John Travolta.
    How many times have people relied on medicine and died? How many time have people relied on prayer and lived, in this world everything goes. Some people have good experiences and some bad ones, that's how it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Did you hear the one about the guy who didn't believe schizophrenia was real and who's son died because they relied on relgion rather than medicine?

    His name is John Travolta.
    How many times have people relied on medicine and died? How many time have people relied on prayer and lived, in this world everything goes. Some people have good experiences and some bad ones, that's how it is.
    You seem to be confusing "this world" with some magical fantasy world.

    I'd love to be able to weild a Caduceus and cast Esuna or Curaga to heal the sick and wounded (I do it all the time when I'm playing my computer games) but that doesn't work in real life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Did you hear the one about the guy who didn't believe schizophrenia was real and who's son died because they relied on relgion rather than medicine?

    His name is John Travolta.
    How many times have people relied on medicine and died? How many time have people relied on prayer and lived, in this world everything goes. Some people have good experiences and some bad ones, that's how it is.
    You seem to be confusing "this world" with some magical fantasy world.

    I'd love to be able to weild a Caduceus and cast Esuna or Curaga to heal the sick and wounded (I do it all the time when I'm playing my computer games) but that doesn't work in real life.
    If you are going to take that stance, then you would have to explain what is real and what is not. I agree with you on the part where it does not work for you, but who are you? what works for you obviously does not work for others, yet you take it upon yourself to think it does not work at all. I wonder why you think the world is only about what works for you, is not that kind of arrogant?
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    If you are going to take that stance, then you would have to explain what is real and what is not.
    It's quite obvious that you don't know the difference between the two.
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    ~ Do not under estimate the power of the placebo effect.. It's a known science fact. More than 62% cure rate of nothing but sugar pills.
    The human mind can mend more than we yet understand. Some folk fall towards religion and find real power in doing so..
    That it works is of scientific truth.

    ~ Quote 'Stargate';. If you are going to take that stance, then you would have to explain what is real and what is not. I agree with you on the part where it does not work for you, but who are you? what works for you obviously does not work for others, yet you take it upon yourself to think it does not work at all. I wonder why you think the world is only about what works for you, is not that kind of arrogant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    If you are going to take that stance, then you would have to explain what is real and what is not.
    It's quite obvious that you don't know the difference between the two.

    Careful now.
    If you continue like that you will be accused of bullying.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    The thing about the placebo effect is that it has been know sometimes to make you merely feel better, without actually curing your ailment.

    That can be quite dangerous when it comes to serious illnesses.
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    Why couldn't this thread have morphed into a thread about Pandas instead of Travoltas?

    or placebo Travoltas?

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    I am going to give a shocker. Due to technology it is now possible to produce voices with help of bots which when heard by a schizophrenic may be termed auditory hallucination.
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