May 18th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Why did Hitler exterminate people?
There are many opinions about why Hitler was exterminating so many millions of people. What are your views?
Mine are simple, he was trying to prevent the coming of those predicted to come with messages for mankind. Like Herod did to try to prevent the coming of Jesus. It is said that we are to expect one like Elijah, and there is the coming of the Two Witnesses. I say Hitler was trying to prevent their coming.
He blamed the Jews for failing to finance WWI, and trying to establish marxism, since many marxists were Jews, but most Jews weren't marxist. He also had some funny ideas about race.
He believed he was acting in the best interests of human evolution, eliminating negative, inferior variants and qualities from the species as a whole.
Plus he - and his underlings who carried out the task of extermination - were just plain nasty, and having a what they considered a logical justification for murder meant they could thoroughly enjoy it.
This may be an explanation of why the Nazi's murdered mentally ill people, but I wonder whether they really believed in the race theories. Maybe they wanted to canalise the anger of the German people, who were suffering a very severe economic depression and had just lost a worldwar. "why did we loose, why are we so poor? They did it.."Originally Posted by Starthane Xyzth
Well, they didn't feel that spending money on the mentally ill was a good use of resources. It wasn't so much anger as, here is a problem, lets do the most efficient, proactive things to fix it. Modern Germans are the same way. It's hard to describe, but the same thing that makes them great engineers and planners can also be applied in a indifferent way to the task of mass murder. Anyone without deep cultural attachments to the homeland could possibly work against it's interests, so they must be eliminated.
As far as craterchain's theory, they would have known that prophecy would have foreknowledge about any attempts to circumvent it. In other words, you can't prevent a messiah from coming through mass murder, because it can just as easily be that event from which a messiah originates. It's like the paradox of time travel, can you go back and kill your grandfather and prevent yourself from being born? If so, then you wouldn't survive to go back in time, and therefore you couldn't have done it in the first place...
Here's an idea. Hitler exterminated people. He ostracized the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypsies and all the other "subhuman" races.
Because it... worked.
Now. I'm not judging the morality of his actions. Nor am I saying that the people were deserving of extermination or not. The fact is that they were, so why quibble over details?
The point is that Hitler dragged this nation that was one of the poorest nations in Europe. Whose economy was complete chaos. Whose people were lost and bewildered. Depressed and unmotivated.
And he turned this little country into the dominant world power within just a few years time.
He did it by unifying the people. By giving them enemies which they could blame for their troubles. And whether the jews were responsible or not is besides the point. Look at the results.
And, I don't mean the final results. Hitler made poor choices as well. The final defeat of Germany was not connected with the demonization of the Jews. The defeat of Germany was brought about by poor military planning.
The world needs a scapegoat. Give them one or they'll find one blindly. Hitler tapped into the forces underlying the mentality of the social. And he did it well. Hitler was a demagogue. And a good one. One of the best.
Don't judge him on morality. Judge him on results. At the very least, keep your judgements seperate.
I don't think Hitler's success depended on having a scapegoat, (although it helped to keep everyone in fear of the punishment for dissent), but rather the remarkable effectiveness of fascism. Fascism works because it unites industry, labor, and mass media into a single machine under strong central control. Note that the US economy also boomed as a result of WWII.
I hope you don't really believe that these people are subhuman.He ostracized the Jews and the Slavs and the Gypsies and all the other subhuman races.
I think that a common tactic of fascist governments is to scare them, not of punishment by the government, but of the reprisal of the dirty outsider. The Germans of Nazi Germany weren't scared of punishment by the government. I'm sure some were, but for the most part these people fell hook, line, and sinker for the nationalist stance.
To be a part of something, something else must be outside.
This is the way of things. And is the doom of globalism.
As to the subhuman issue.
I thought I made it clear, but upon rereading my post I realized that I forgot to quote subhuman. You must have started responding before my edit.
No. I don't see them as subhuman. Neither do I really see them as anything special. People die. Genocides happen. It's the way of things.
Spidergoat, isn't it amazing that inadvertently Hitler actually helped the Jews get their homeland
and national title back by 1948? An actual fulfillment of a prophesy of Jesus, I find that terribly
ironic myself.
The nexunator
The defeat of Germany was brought about by poor military planning
The forgotten fact:
Russia sent 1.5 million troops to take over Finland - which was supposed to happen in two weeks, tops.
Finland’s population at the time was 3.5 million but was able to summon up an army of about 150 000 men with practically no armaments.
After about a hundred days later Finland had lost around 27 000 thousand men and russia around five to ten times more. 150 000 - 500 000. (Russian officials said 270 000 after the war).
At this point piece was signed.
And looking at the statistics Hitler concluded that his army would roll over the russians easily.
He hasted and underestimated like a fool because of this.
Hah, I find this funny - russia got (somewhat) fucked, as well as germany (somewhat).
Because of a few skiing snipers.
Anyone else here play Sid Meier's Civilization II? Alpine Troop (skiiing infantry) are pretty formidable fighters in that game, especially where awkward terrains like mountains and forests are involved...
Hitler f**ked up Germany first. Even before Nazis came to power Germans were already on the way of building a great nation recovering from the humilation of WWI defeat. Hitler exploited the German pride and patriotism and gave them back a monster - Mighty "Aryan Race" bullshit.
And gave the anti-semiticism a monsterous twist to justify 'final solution'.
Whoever stood on his way would be eliminated. Marshal Rommel, Admiral Canaris.. so many remarkable germans who tried to check this megalomanic went down fighting. Hitler,in no way, deserves a rational justification of "why he did".
A pharaoh tried a similar exterminating to stop one from coming, that was Moses; this seems to be a well used tatic.
A great nation, whose banknotes were so worthless they could be used as confetti? I don't think Germans felt very optimistic during the Depression.
I think we know why he did what he did.
He had a few screws loose and had an incredible hatred of anyone who wasn't like him.
Lol ! Yup but you forget something : with tons of 'if' you rebuild the world
"if the persian won the war againt the athenians, it will happend ..........", so it's always easy to do that after the events !
And about your topic, watch the excellent movie "Downfall" which describe the last days of Hitler and his "team" in the Berlin bunker ... you will see the true face of nazism.
He hated jews because of the corruption when he tried to get into the artschool. Many of his teachers was jews and they gaved him 'unfair' grades. Also.. I believe there was a jewish doctor that failed to save his mother.
There are several interesting theories posted here, which I very much agree with. However, Hitler's ambition was to bring Germany back from the ruins and the enormous debt they were left from WWI. The exterminations had several different purposes. For instance, the mentally ill were removed from society simply beacause they were weak and would slow the upcoming of "the third reich".
The story of the actual anti-semetic Hitler is a controversial subject discussed by many theoreticians. Some say that the forming of his anti-semetism was after a conflict Between himself and some other jewish pupils. Others say that he only appeared to be anti-semetic to give the German people someone to hate. In "Mein Kampf" he says:
“ There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.
Once, when passing through the inner City, I suddenly encountered a phenomenon in a long caftan and wearing black side-locks. My first thought was: Is this a Jew? They certainly did not have this appearance in Linz. I carefully watched the man stealthily and cautiously but the longer I gazed at the strange countenance and examined it feature by feature, the more the question shaped itself in my brain: Is this a German?"
Another element that should be taken to equation is Hitler's own childhood. He told his secretary of how his father punished him by whipping him, how it made him promise himself never to cry when being repremended by his father. And after dropping out of school as a 16 year old, he was rejected twice at the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna. After his second rejection he ran out of money and had to seek help at a homeless shelter. In this period he experienced the lower classes in Germany, and here he is also said to have experienced several incidents to have increased his hate for the Jews. Most theoreticians belive all this to have influenced Hitler to have wanted to become someone important, and made him seek luck in politics.
In Nazi-Germany's ideals the Aryan race were above all others. This racial theory was developed by Arthur de Gobineau, a frenchman who became mentally scarred after his troubling childhood. After working in several countries, among others Perisa and Brasil, he came to believe that race creates culture. And by seperating the three races: "Black", "White" and "Yellow" he argued that racial-mixing in between the races would ruin the society. This was the ideal that Hitler used in his extermination of Jews, Poles, Sovjet POWs, homosexuals, religous opposers, criminals and so on. The new "reich" was to be a 100% pure one, and everyone who was unpure was not worth the life given to them. The Aryan master race consisted of the Germanic, and nordic races, and a perfect example of this was the tall, blond muscular man. All this was also backed with the theory of Darwinism. The quote: "survival of the fittest" was interpreted as requiring racial purity and killing off "life unworthy of life".
As well as the purging of the land, as I've said before, Hitler ordered every weak person in Germany to be exterminated. The first victims, being crippled and retarded children, would both cost Germany and "show" them as a weak country. Following did the extermination of the mentally ill and psychiatric patients come. All in an attempt to rid Germany of the weak and reduce costs of caretaking.
Sorry if I keep repeating myself. :-D
From an economic perspective, it was essential to cut down on the mouths to feed. The easiest way to solve unemployment is to kill off a number of people equal to the unemployment rate. Their jobs suddenly become available.
I was watching a documentary on the effect of Nazism on German universities and colleges, where apparently around a third of all the professors were jews. Idealism being whatever it was, most people who participated were motivate at least partly by the likelihood that deporting all the jews would help them advance in their careers.
“ There were very few Jews in Linz. In the course of centuries the Jews who lived there had become Europeanized in external appearance and were so much like other human beings that I even looked upon them as Germans. The reason why I did not then perceive the absurdity of such an illusion was that the only external mark which I recognized as distinguishing them from us was the practice of their strange religion. As I thought that they were persecuted on account of their faith my aversion to hearing remarks against them grew almost into a feeling of abhorrence. I did not in the least suspect that there could be such a thing as a systematic anti-Semitism.I do think that Hitler was trying to kill off a culture more than a race. (Though perhaps he thought the two were inseparable)In Nazi-Germany's ideals the Aryan race were above all others. This racial theory was developed by Arthur de Gobineau, a frenchman who became mentally scarred after his troubling childhood. After working in several countries, among others Perisa and Brasil, he came to believe that race creates culture.
Jewish culture has a lot of flaws, most notably the religious belief that they are superior to all other races and therefore deserve to rule over everybody. The reason they seem persecuted is they are outnumbered in most places where they settle, so they're always on the losing end, but it's not like they don't start fights.
There's a difference between a peaceful culture that's being persecuted by a bigger, bullying culture, and a bully culture that's getting persecuted by a bigger bully culture. The jews are as much into bullying as anybody who's ever picked on them. As a culture.
As a race, well, race doesn't really determine anything. Only culture does. If a bunch of "Aryans" got together and formed a religion like Judaism, and structured their culture the way the jews have, I'd see them in exactly the same way.
Wow, thats the best reason ever that I've heard for genocide. Not.
What a lovely way of looking at it.
Yeah, right Kojax. They were just as bad as the people who fried them in the ovens. Watch out, your bigotry is starting to show through.
As far as Hitler's antisemitism is concerned, it didn't just materialize out of nowhere. There is a long tradition that goes way back in that part of the world. Just read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies."
You talk as though the Palestinians have been treated so differently. They're typically not put in outright concentration camps. I'll grant that, but they aren't exactly first class citizens.Yeah, right Kojax. They were just as bad as the people who fried them in the ovens. Watch out, your bigotry is starting to show through.
As far as Hitler's antisemitism is concerned, it didn't just materialize out of nowhere. There is a long tradition that goes way back in that part of the world. Just read Martin Luther's "On the Jews and Their Lies."
You also make it sound like the jews were fried alive. The Nazis aren't the only people who ever created mass graves, or used other means to get rid of a pile of corpses. They're just the ones you hear the most about, because some very prominent members of the Jewish community own large portions of Hollywood.
There's a difference between being biased against an ethnicity and just not being biased in their favor. More and more people expect you to be biased in favor of this particular ethnicity in order to avoid being labeled a "racist". (Which is doubly ironic given that it's not even the race itself I see flaws in, but rather the culture.)
Well, it's certainly not an ideal solution. But, when push comes to shove, the economy always wins the shoving match. Human life always loses. That's why having a smart economic policy is essential for any society that wants to value human life.Wow, thats the best reason ever that I've heard for genocide. Not.
What a lovely way of looking at it.
You mean like how the Jews are first class citizens in all the other middle eastern countries? Well, I wonder how you would treat people who keep strapping bombs on themselves and blowing up buses and stuff.Where do you get this horse manure from, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?You also make it sound like the jews were fried alive. The Nazis aren't the only people who ever created mass graves, or used other means to get rid of a pile of corpses. They're just the ones you hear the most about, because some very prominent members of the Jewish community own large portions of Hollywood.
You know full well the oppression started long, long before the first pali ever strapped a bomb to his chest.You mean like how the Jews are first class citizens in all the other middle eastern countries? Well, I wonder how you would treat people who keep strapping bombs on themselves and blowing up buses and stuff.
Now all you can do is insult? No constructive points to make? Many peoples and cultures have been the victims of genocides no less severe than what the Jews suffered in WW2. You know that full well. One is going on right now in Darfur even as we chat.Where do you get this horse manure from, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?You also make it sound like the jews were fried alive. The Nazis aren't the only people who ever created mass graves, or used other means to get rid of a pile of corpses. They're just the ones you hear the most about, because some very prominent members of the Jewish community own large portions of Hollywood.
So your saying because one kind of 'race' (I'll say race here because you are trying to segregate them) commits a terrible act, they aren't entitiled to respect because they did that sort of stuff way in the past. I'm sure whatever Jews did wrong was based on their religion and the wars from that, which they saw was right. You can't say a little jew girl that got gassed can't be respeted because her 'race' doesn't deserve it because they did something bad a long time ago? Yet you are defending the nazi's saying what they did was not any less than what the jews did. Jews didn't commit mass genocide did they? So don't blame those innocent Jews.You know full well the oppression started long, long before the first pali ever strapped a bomb to his chest.You mean like how the Jews are first class citizens in all the other middle eastern countries? Well, I wonder how you would treat people who keep strapping bombs on themselves and blowing up buses and stuff.
Now all you can do is insult? No constructive points to make? Many peoples and cultures have been the victims of genocides no less severe than what the Jews suffered in WW2. You know that full well. One is going on right now in Darfur even as we chat.Where do you get this horse manure from, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?You also make it sound like the jews were fried alive. The Nazis aren't the only people who ever created mass graves, or used other means to get rid of a pile of corpses. They're just the ones you hear the most about, because some very prominent members of the Jewish community own large portions of Hollywood.
PS Harold by horse manure meant that the words you are choosing are horse manure, not actually insulting you. He could have said "Your words don't sound very convincing" if you want to put it another way. It does sound like horse manure because you are insulting a 'race' now. If the world could see this conversation, you'd have many enemies, religious and atheist alike.
I'm not digging at you :wink:.
No, I don't. Tell me about it.The genocide in Darfur really has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You insulted the Jews by comparing them to the Nazis, then you dragged out some tired old nonsense about the Hollywood Jews. This sounds like garden variety holocaust denying, antisemitic, conspiracy theory to me. And yes, it is horse manure.Now all you can do is insult? No constructive points to make? Many peoples and cultures have been the victims of genocides no less severe than what the Jews suffered in WW2. You know that full well. One is going on right now in Darfur even as we chat.
I have to jump in and defend kojax here. I am not convinced that he is part of the denial of the holocaust crowd. It seems to me he was not offending the Jews, nor defending the Nazi’s. The holocaust did happen and it was almost inconceivably terrible. I think what he is trying to say is much the same message that you, Harold, try to bring across in the religion section sometimes. A properly objective way of looking at things. Is it so inconceivable that Jews in Hollywood focus more attention on the atrocities committed against them? It certainly does not take away from the degree of callousness they were subjected to, merely an observation that does not really seem unreasonable to me. Again, I think he merely wants to encourage a more objective way of looking at things and not to propagate absurd elegances to the oppressors.
Yeah. That's more my point.Is it so inconceivable that Jews in Hollywood focus more attention on the atrocities committed against them? It certainly does not take away from the degree of callousness they were subjected to, merely an observation that does not really seem unreasonable to me. Again, I think he merely wants to encourage a more objective way of looking at things and not to propagate absurd elegances to the oppressors.
This isn't an "if" or "not" question. It's a question of degree. Do you think the atrocities in Darfur right now are any less terrible than the attrocities committed by the Nazis on WW2?
Their descendants don't deserve to inherit sympathy from their parents' suffering. If the little girl doesn't deserve to suffer because her forefathers did something, then she doesn't deserve to benefit because they got oppressed either.So your saying because one kind of 'race' (I'll say race here because you are trying to segregate them) commits a terrible act, they aren't entitiled to respect because they did that sort of stuff way in the past. I'm sure whatever Jews did wrong was based on their religion and the wars from that, which they saw was right. You can't say a little jew girl that got gassed can't be respeted because her 'race' doesn't deserve it because they did something bad a long time ago? Yet you are defending the nazi's saying what they did was not any less than what the jews did. Jews didn't commit mass genocide did they? So don't blame those innocent Jews.
I'm not trying to segregate anybody. Jewish religion bothers me because it's exactly as backward as Islam. It teaches things that border on total racial hatred toward all non-jews. Anyone who submits to that religion is someone that I would be wary of. (for more or less the same reason I'm wary of muslims. I don't hate them, just don't trust them either)
A jew who doesn't believe in Judaism is absolutely, perfectly immune (in every possible way) from my distrust.
Look. I just chime in on these discussions so they don't become "beat a dead horse" kind of threads. Of course what Hitler did was wrong. I think it's best to understand what truth there was mixed into his rhetoric if we want to understand why so many were taken in. (And how to prevent another)
In English:
Mass murder = Wrong
Wrong = Don't do again
Don't do again = learn
Learn = Mistakes not repeated
Mistakes not repeated = No need to go over old crimes.
We have no need to go over old crimes
He exterminated the Jews because of his own opinions and presumptions, we will never know them. Thats the bottom line. Trying to explain something you'll never know is pointless. Creating theories on something which cannot be proven is a waste of time especially if it is in the past. We know he was wrong, lets remember that and learn. It was wrong because mass murder is wrong. NO MATTER THE REASON BEHIND IT. If an atheist can't agree with that then everything they say about religion is contradictory.
I hear that mass amount of other non-jewish people died than jewish amount of people. Here's the graph -
Found this on Wikipedia by any chance?I hear that mass amount of other non-jewish people died than jewish amount of people. Here's the graph -
:wink:.
Yea I came across it too.
In English:
Mass murder = Wrong
Wrong = Don't do again
Don't do again = learn
Learn = Mistakes not repeated
Mistakes not repeated = No need to go over old crimes.
We have no need to go over old crimes
He exterminated the Jews because of his own opinions and presumptions, we will never know them. Thats the bottom line. Trying to explain something you'll never know is pointless. Creating theories on something which cannot be proven is a waste of time especially if it is in the past. We know he was wrong, lets remember that and learn. It was wrong because mass murder is wrong. NO MATTER THE REASON BEHIND IT. If an atheist can't agree with that then everything they say about religion is contradictory.
It would be nice if the world were so simple that we could just write off everything in one big shot. The people who followed Hitler were not idiots or insane. (Unless you believe that over a million of the world's then most educated people simultaneously contracted a rare psychological disorder)
There was truth mixed in the message with the lies. That's how a successful lie is told. You are absolutely, perfectly, guarunteed to be taken in every time if you don't know how to separate the truth from the falsehood, and see both. Hindsight is 20/20, but only foresight will enable you to dodge the bullet.
If the Germans had had foresight, they could have dodged it too, but that kind of foresight only comes by examining the past under a magnifying glass and searching for specific causes for why others have stumbled.
If you don't want to do that kind of analysis, that's just as good as saying you want to be in the Fourth Reich. You're saying you're not willing to go to the effort to avoid it. (Which guaruntees you *won't* avoid it.) The next big lie won't be identical to the last. They'll use different words, and maybe even target different people. You won't recognize the next Hitler unless you know what to look for.
January 9th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Scientists Are Lonely Men -Oliver La Farge
"It is too bad both for the scientist and the public that they are so cut off from each other. The world needs now not the mere knowledges of science, but the way of thought and discipline. It is the essence of what Hitler has set out to destroy; against it he has waged total war within his own domain. It is more than skepticism, the weighing of evidence more even than the love of truth. It is the devotion of oneself to an end which is far more important than the individual, the certainty that the end is absolutely good, not only for oneself but for all mankind, and the character to set personal advantage, comfort, and glory aside in the devoted effort to make even a little progress toward it." -1942 From: A Treasury of Science (1958, Harper & Brothers)
In philosophy, the question often debated is: If you could go back in time, and find Adolf Hitler before he became a political leader, if you killed him then, would you be doing mankind a good service? I'm thinking that the death of the person standing before you may not be a long-term solution, but just may perpetuate the problem. Someone more informed, and able to delve more deeply into this hypothetical situation, would ask the question: if you could go back in time, and find Adolf Hitler before he was imprisoned by his fellow countryman, and prevented him from being caged like an animal, would you be doing mankind a good service?
If you treat people as animals, you get animals. Prisons do not treat people humanely. Today's psychological outcome of imprisonment needs to be avoided by more humane methods of dealing with our problem child.
Speaking biologically, prisons are, and have been, used by societies in the form of genocide of undesirables. Hitler was not the first to use this method. It was attempted on him first. I'm involved in biological research which indicates the cells of warm-blooded animals must reorient periodically the Earth's magnetic field in order to function properly. This is why the bird egg has to be turned during incubation in order for it to continue growing, and why you see warm-blooded animals facilitating movement in their young, until they can do it themselves. I'm in the process of getting NASA to take a magnetic field up with the astronauts, because evidence indicates the osteoporosis is caused by a lack of movement in a magnetic field, rather than a lack of gravity. This will mean all lab animal experiments are invalid, due to the animals confinement. We will learn that older people are prone to cancers because their nucleic walls deteriorate as they age because they slow down in their rate of movement. Children being made sit more than about 10 minutes and schools, goes down in history as mass child abuse.
The confinement of people in prisons today will be shown/known to be a definite biological disadvantage to those made indur such conditions. Most in prisons today are political prisoners, being punished for not going along with recent unconstitutional rules in our society. But those in the future will see this clearly, through hindsight.
to the question;
I lived in Germany 5 years. What's striking is how the topic rarely if ever came up.
It wasn't just Hitler but wierd circumstances.
My take on it was Hitler was a thug and, like any thug, used terror to get his way. Forget the charisma thing and all that....that was real but not a resaon for murdering millions...there's been lots of charismatic nutcases.
What I think happened was like a bad comedy script. Everyone, believers and not, felt they had to suck p to hilter and his Nazi lads to preserve their own bacon. 'You are with us or agianst us'.
"Hitler says 'x' about Jews. do you agree?"
"Sure, now leave us alone"
"But do you 'really' agree?"
"Sure, I hate Jews evern more than you do"
"No, I hate Jews even more"
"I hate Jews so much that....."
"Hey, I hate them even more and stick that in your pipe and smoke it"
Everyone was scared of being honest as to what they really thought. The Emperor's new clothes. People fallng all over themselves to prove that they were good little Nazis...many believing but most just not wanting the finger pointed at them. This doesn't excuse the actions of the average Germans but the ball got away from rational action. It got to the absurd point where the Third Reich was being devastated and beseiged on two fronts but the 'faithful' were still diverting resources to murder women and children. One didn't dareallow a chink in the image of how you hated Jews even more than the next guy.
It was a frenzy that wasn't out of control as in most situations (Rwanda, etc.) but becaome the fabric of a modern technological society. Although modern, the German people were driven (initially by their own complacency) by the same emotions as all humans...pride, etc. but also by simple physical fear for oneself and family.
June 30th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Because he could.
July 2nd, 2008, 10:13 AM
Hitler exterminated Himself:Because he could.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler
Hitler exterminated 'Losers'
To lose is to win and he who wins shall lose. 8).
There is actually a huge collective commemoration going on continously. School kids start to learn about this topic by the age 10 (!) and until you leave school you will repeat it each year at least once in subjects like history, social sciences and even in german literature. During my school time i had to visit three concentration camps, i listened to several time witness reports and went to so many museums etc. thats only mentioning school time. you can have a look at the online editions of the big german newspapers, i guess you will find at least one article each day dealing with holocaust, nazi criminals etc.
www.welt.de
www.sueddeutsche.de
www.faz.net
www.taz.de
same goes for the public tv channels. there has been built a huge memorial in berlin to commemorate the victims of the holocaust ...
the actual problem is that many people perceive this whole procedure (yes it is like this) as a kind of brain washing, blaming young people for crimes somebody else has done. this is quite dangerous!
but saying that the topic never comes up while having lived in germany for five years ...
Maybe better say individual Germans don't want the war to define who they are, as much as foreigners define "Germans" by it.
Is there any interest (or irony) in the fact that Hitler hated cruelty to animals, outlawed most "animal testing", and enforced "humane" treatment rules regarding domestic animals - stricter than are in place today in most Western nations?
He was a vegetarian.
I'm not surprised. Our treatment of animals is a gaping ethical hole. The sane (natural) positions are irrational and contradictory.
Sometimes it is better to put sanity before reason. Hitler couldn't see the distinction.
Very few of the Jews he killed were in fact in Germany. They were mostly in Poland and Russia, and besides the fact of his being a racist, they were a convenient source of property, which he stole, of houses which he would give to German settlers, and they were disproportionately represented in the intellectual elite, which he feared.
No one has mentioned lebensraum yet. Hitler murdered millions of non-Jewish Poles and would have exterminated the Russians as well (in addition to the millions who died in warfare) had he had the chance. The ultimate reasons for Hitler's depravity are not something I can answer, but the proximate motivation was the addition of living space for the German people, and the creation of an empire. Despite that fact that Britain, Belgium and other countries had far higher population densities, Hitler was convinced that the German people needed more space, and that the inferior or even sub-human slavs to the east should be killed to provide that space. He considered French people "worthy" of being allowed to live, and Netherlanders and Danes were almost as good as Germans, but Poles and Russians were not worthy and they were in the way so they were to be killed.
1- Hitler had Socialists and Communists sent to a concentration camp the moment he seized power. Many of these may have been jews but jews were not rounded up, it was a political move.
2- Hitler eliminated political rivals within his own power-structure, including Brown Shirt leaders, these were (not jews nor communists) more likely seen as a threat to his power(or to the power of those supporting Hitler). I think Stalin eliminated many within his own party presumably for similar reasons.
3- A league of Jews declared a Holy War (economic warfare/boycott) against Hitler's Germany around 1933, in New York (and London?). Unless I am mistaken, the boycott of german goods by jewish organisations (while some US industries were investing in Nazi Germany) lead to a boycott of jewish shops in Germany and to hostility within segments of the German polulation. This aspect has been wiped out of history but is imo relevant. I have to assume that jewish germans had little to do with the boycott jewish people outside germany were responsible for, just has the Japanese americans sent to prison camps in the US had little to do about the actions of Imperial Japan.
The victors write history, so its hard to figure out what really happened and most importantly why, when a historical event makes little sense sometimes it means there are pieces of the puzzle that are kept hidden. In addition, the motivations given in the media for actions by one's government or that of an enemy government are often total bullshit(saddam's WMDs), and this official bullshit sometimes makes it into history books instead of other reasons(ex: strategic, Oil, etc).
Totally. Hidden, as a rule, by all parties, because for different reasons those missing pieces make everybody uncomfortable or it is simply not in anybody's interest they come to light. It is a passive collusion that whiffs of conspiracy. Then we get revisionists who blame one group as masterminding agents solely responsible, which is wrong. Then the game is all about refuting and preempting conspiracy theories (like the anti-antisemitism metagame), which also misses the truth.
"by all parties"
Sometimes, but often one of the party a) doesnt know or b) is not in a position to reveal the information.
a)The fact the allies knew the germans would bomb Coventry and did not warn the population was kept 'hidden' by the allies but not by the Axis, because they did not want the Axis to know they had cracked Enigma, the Axis didnt know.
b) The Chinese know about the atrocities commited by the Japanese during WW2, but in japanese schools the history being thought has removed references to those. In this case, the Chinese are not in a position to reveal the information in a way that reaches the Japanese audience.
Most particularly people often aren't willing to admit when they do things for economic reasons. People can often be quite forgiving of other cultures when their own economy is running smoothly.Totally. Hidden, as a rule, by all parties, because for different reasons those missing pieces make everybody uncomfortable or it is simply not in anybody's interest they come to light. It is a passive collusion that whiffs of conspiracy. Then we get revisionists who blame one group as masterminding agents solely responsible, which is wrong. Then the game is all about refuting and preempting conspiracy theories (like the anti-antisemitism metagame), which also misses the truth.
It's only when the economy is going badly that it suddenly matters so much that they said X about our god, or wear funny hats, or etc...
February 20th, 2009, 06:03 PM
He did it because he thought that Jewish people were more inteligent than himself, deep down anyway and he felt threatened by this. Einstein amongst others were very very inteligent, that is why, I believe the Nazis persicuted the jews in europe to near extinction and even if what I said isn't entirely accurate I think it was just because Hitler and all the rest of them were just pure evil, degenerates or frightened sheep.
The guy had one testicle and was ugly as hell. He had nothing to lose.
You have some real points there. The loud vocal Jews, were as you said for a communism.
I believe that some Jews through friendships survived the war in Germany. Never even had a problem. They knew enough to accept the chaos for what it was.
Years ago, often a crowd of blacks would get a little wild. The cops would come, and next thing you know. Some guy in the crowd would yell out pig or something there about. They would take the black guy, even a black cop, and the cops would call him boy, or whisper Niger. And he would claim racism and police abuse.
But the reality was if you were white at that same seen, and you said, pig, you may not have needed a hospital but rather a morgue. Not because they hated whites or blacks. But they knew you knew the deal. It was a police state no longer America. Until men like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin get together again and take it back. So it was just understood, shut up when the man comes. Or get rid of the law makers. It is your right to do so. A total recall by whatever means is your God given right in America.
So in a way when the blacks were calling out whites for not standing up for our rights and their rights. Many felt like, "No kidding" "But are you wild black guys going to be there calm and collected spending perhaps 16 hour days working out the reconstruction of a central command and putting the nation back together. When there may or may not even be communications, and or other nations, may use that instant to invade us"?
Usually I got "OH". They realized I was ok, and they probably would help me out. But they are not really in a position to run a perfectly orchestrated rebellion with the social and economic problems upon them. I told them neither am I.
What was refreshing was that they could snap out of the prejudice shield that they created. And not get caught up with it. Some white people cannot.
Germany was actually, a natural communism. Basically they felt it was a no brain-er. That if you capitalize on industries ability to, produce a lifetime of work in a few hours. That there would be enough for all mankind. Quality would keep increasing perhaps infinitely.
Space travel would come and create an infinitely large second promised land.
So when someone demanded a communism, they felt insulted. They felt like someone wanted them to be slaves for them. Or that someone wanted them, to have to listen to them.
When obviously the people demanding a communism, did not even take the time to ask, how and why things worked the way they did. Many Russians even second generation Russians in Germany still did not get it. They did not get the capitalization part of a successful country.
And they certainly did not understand the "economy" which is as real as a penny in your pocket making you float.
To many poor Russians and Polish, and Turkish, in their mind, when you got the ball, you hid it. So no one else could get it. And to the intelligent Germans that obviously were far and few in between, this seemed like a sickness, not even an evil.
Somewhere, in between the smart Germans wanting to just treat the greedy bastards, and get their minds at rest with being totally and wholly successful. They created concentration camps and death camps.
No other nation helped the Jews leaving Germany. Let that be known. They could have been on fire, and no other country would have urinated on them. That was just the love in the world at the time. The hatred was honest against the Jews. But that same hatred and self-destruction was done even to themselves. Christianity was never the same. America was never the same.
The intelligent German's just wanted their communist Russian brothers to return to society, without reclusive withdraw from society, that would end them up dying from paranoia, in a corner of a dark house, clutching a few thousand German marks.
As it turned out many pure German's went that way.
Some of them would not have survived, mentally perhaps, just being slapped in the face with it. Could you imagine spending your whole life wanting some position, that symbolized the person and the position, that abused you. Just so you could escape being under fire from that position. That was/is Russia in the nutshell. When Russia decides to change they will recite America's Founding Father's, words to us, and laugh us out of business.
Russia was about, retards with position, beating down the masses to avoid being exposed as retards. Our law makers have learned much from the Stalin, Russians.
Russia was known for putting the wrong people in the wrong positions and jobs. It is happening here now in America.
When you screw around with the basics of science, reading and math. You will find that the best in any field lose interest in taking part in their beloved field of interest. It becomes, just another corrupt institution. Spreading a lot of nonsense embarrassing the whole field. If you love something you do not want to be near it as it does a death spiral. And takes all your dreams with it.
So someone else that can kind of do it. Takes the big pay check and just fills the spot. And dreams all day about what he would have liked to do.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
So , it's all about people oppressing others in order to avoid being oppressed themselves? The poor struggle to be rich, so they can do the oppressing (instead of being oppressed). The masses struggle for leadership positions. Idiots struggle to be placed in positions of academic importance, so nobody can make fun of them?
I liked the summation. Very accurate. Scary. Sent a shiver down my spine.
George Washington the last American president as far as I am concerned, turned down a third term as president and said he had enough of the politics.
He never wanted to leave his farm. He was a very good scientist himself. Not many know that he did work with crops, and crossbreeding. To grow crops very quickly, crops that were burned as the English left.
I work with scary old timers all the time. I cannot believe, what will not be known in a few more years. About military, and basic American technology. They are packing it up for the dark ages.
No more understanding and love, just memorization of some plan that has a known percentage for hit and miss safety.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
It's all population. The population gets too large and we look around and realize everybody around us is all competition, for resources that are getting more and more scarce everyday (relative to the number of people who need them).
Well, the less capable realize really quickly that a pure meritocracy would leave them pretty much high and dry. If resources get scarce enough it gets to be a simple guarantee (an absolute guarantee) that somebody is going to have to do without, maybe even not get enough to eat.
We fool ourselves with words like the "economy", which we think we can improve or manage better or worse, but the simple basic truth is that some resources exist in fixed quantities with a near, or absolute, zero influence from human effort. Examples might be things like gold, oil, and land. Of course you can mine more gold, pump more oil, or terraform more land, but only so much exists to act upon.
You can't grow more food than your acreage.
You can, however, fool yourself that you're going to grow more food than your acreage, by "trying harder", as though that would make some kind of huge difference in the final production quantities. Are you going to sow and reap the same field 20 times this year, just because you get a few more workers to help you?
And..... it is in this lens that I view Nazism. I think it grew out of a half articulated fear of population overload, in a time and place when/where resources were getting scarce. Foreigners were buying up all the good stuff with those worthless Deutsch marks they'd been printing, and they needed a way out. They needed a way to stop tripping over the excess humanity all around them, by dividing into factions and having an internal war, one where the sides were sufficiently unequal so that it would end quickly, and very little real effort would go into deciding what side you were on (You're either born on the winning side, or you're not).
Something you said struck me funny. You mentioned that some resources are fixed or in scarce quantity. Actually scientifically, I do not know of any commodity, that cannot be produced in very high quantity. Through science.
However if you aim real science at the problem, whenever a commodity comes up short, or is in demand, and solve the shortage. The less intelligent cannot put up the tollbooths and create a dynasty from the scam, and excessive rates for doing nothing but collecting excessive money, that would have created a real solution.
Law makers create the problems and then charge you trillions to fix them. I am just wondering how far individuals have to be pushed before they have had enough of the law makers. The only problem a law maker can understand, is the one he created. And he does not want it to go away. It is his bread and butter.
He just waits till you agree to anything, to get the law makers to make it stop.
I am not saying you are wrong at all, you stated the reality. I just wanted to clarify, what causes the shortcomings, as law makers. It is not our science.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
How do you produce gold in high quantity?
They do it with chemicals. There are some cheap chemicals, and there is cheap electric power.
They can turn any element into another, through different processes. I really do not know what the current method is. Years ago the different chemicals were named with the auric prefixes.
But these things are often denied. The price of the chemicals claimed to be unreasonable. And to be honest for what they end up getting in dollars, for doing all that work. They may be right.
But if they got $900.00 an ounce. Then they could do it and get rich. I would bet that someone selling gold today would not get much an ounce for it. Even if it is around $900.00 an ounce at market.
It is a lot like gasoline. When the price goes up. Everyone thinks the guy pumping gas in the cold has it made. When it often works in reverse.
In the chemical plant where I worked, we used to take in all the photo fixer, (silver nitrate), and plate the silver out. We got paid to pick it up and take it away.
We even had large marble electrode, three phase, agitating, platting systems to do it. But you only get a few bucks a pound for the silver oxide. It is very black and very heavy. And takes a lot of work.
But you can confirm what I said, by looking at what a chemist/plater gets per pound from a smelter for his stuff. It is very low. A small smelter does not get much for his work either. It is the people that buy, trade the gold, the chemists, that put their stamp of authenticity on it, that make the money.
We are a sick nation. Look at what they offer you for your jewelry.
They started to engrave the diamonds out of Africa I believe. Because they are growing perfect crystal diamonds. That you cannot tell the difference, from a mine diamond. They have had this ability for a long, long time.
I believe if you create to large a diamond, it can explode with incredible violence, if shocked. I believe you can take phenol C6H5OH, put it into a solution, of ethyl alcohol, and let it crystallize. By wick method.
This should create a diamond/explosive. Just do not make it too big. And to be honest I would not want to cut it. Not knowing if it is explosive.
Years ago in the early 1900's they called ethyl alcohol denatured alcohol. Then they started calling denatured alcohol wood alcohol.
The problem with discussing this as adults is that, the chemical names have changed over the years. In my town we had a different set of chemical formulas for similar chemicals used in other parts of the country. And I know at one time here we could make as much as we wanted of anything. But since we had everything why would we want gold? We wanted a space program and exploration, science and computer math language. That they cancelled.
To be honest though, you are better off finding out what it is you enjoy doing and do it. If you like money get a job at the mint. If you like gold get a job at a plating factory. That is my take on it.
Today in America, the "rich" are doing more work to look rich, then it is worth. They kiss up more then a poor fellow. And they really for the most part are not that rich.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
You can't change one element into another. That requires nuclear processes like fission and fusion. The alchemists tried for hundreds of years to make gold out of other substances, with no luck, and modern science has concurred that they could never have accomplished it.
They do it with chemicals. There are some cheap chemicals, and there is cheap electric power.
They can turn any element into another, through different processes. I really do not know what the current method is. Years ago the different chemicals were named with the auric prefixes.
But these things are often denied. The price of the chemicals claimed to be unreasonable. And to be honest for what they end up getting in dollars, for doing all that work. They may be right.
But if they got $900.00 an ounce. Then they could do it and get rich. I would bet that someone selling gold today would not get much an ounce for it. Even if it is around $900.00 an ounce at market.
If did you use nuclear fission/fusion to do it, the product would be radio active, not that it's exactly easy to create the right fusion/fission effects anyway. At least it's possible in principle.
You're right that we can grow diamonds, however., and you can extract elements from other chemical compounds, like getting silver out of silver nitrate. That's a different things altogether.
You can easily change one element into another. They do it everyday. They just do not make a big deal about it. Because people will scream foul. The law makers are not going to change, by what they have seen, so why open their mouths, is their strategy.You can't change one element into another. That requires nuclear processes like fission and fusion. The alchemists tried for hundreds of years to make gold out of other substances, with no luck, and modern science has concurred that they could never have accomplished it.
They do it with chemicals. There are some cheap chemicals, and there is cheap electric power.
They can turn any element into another, through different processes. I really do not know what the current method is. Years ago the different chemicals were named with the auric prefixes.
But these things are often denied. The price of the chemicals claimed to be unreasonable. And to be honest for what they end up getting in dollars, for doing all that work. They may be right.
But if they got $900.00 an ounce. Then they could do it and get rich. I would bet that someone selling gold today would not get much an ounce for it. Even if it is around $900.00 an ounce at market.
If did you use nuclear fission/fusion to do it, the product would be radio active, not that it's exactly easy to create the right fusion/fission effects anyway. At least it's possible in principle.
You're right that we can grow diamonds, however., and you can extract elements from other chemical compounds, like getting silver out of silver nitrate. That's a different things altogether.
You do remember that just a few years ago when there were claims that German chemists in the early 1900's. Could make diamonds. That the multi subatomic particle scientists said, "no way". Not possible, and brought the weight of their giant donut to bear. Just like the top modern scientists said in the seventies, "we were heading into an ice age".
So it is more like how much evil/laziness/stupidity can you face. And then how much work would you like to do with real science? To get it all straitened out. I know where many scientists are. They are not only not going anywhere fast. They are in danger of losing their own lives. Through ignorance, poor building design, poor electrical, plumbing, and HVAC systems, and mislabeled chemicals.
Universal Scientists could do anything, before World War Two. Go to other solar systems no problem. Create any element in abundance no problem. They could even tell you the size and amount of any element or compound you could safely keep in one place. Due to its effect in abundance on ambient or cosmic radiation. If you stock pile up to much of certain elements, they can detonate.
Modern scientists introduced the neutron that does not exist. And claimed it was real. They used the failed Universal Scientist Chadwick, that was banned from Universal Science to push it through. They used the failed Universal Scientist Enrico Fermi, to further the imaginary particle. All without a shred of proof. Not a scrap of evidence. This is of course my opinion, I am an amateur universal scientist.
The poor modern scientists built huge projects, with well known scientific impossibilities stated on the applications for the grants. They were not building a real science project. But rather a counterintelligence operation. Aimed at the basics of science. Even if they were ignorant to it. And they may have been. I have talked to some, and they are ignorant. I mean way out of touch with reality.
Stuff I can build with a few bucks, does not, and cannot exist in their world. I can have one in my pocket and it cannot exist. I can show them one working, and they say, I have a problem or misunderstanding, or I am a trickster or magician.
I am an amateur magician but just for getting kids to laugh. And then I show them the trick.
For many years here in the United States, they claimed that the silver plating because it contains some oxygen, is not real silver. And cannot be used to make silver.
The same was true of gold platting compounds. They even went so far as to say that plated gold contained radio active substances. And they do in very small quantities.
The truth is that plated metals are very close to solid elements. And require very little refining.
I called the other two when they were not possible. Trust me the ladder is also possible.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
You know what would be cool? If you would post this theory and whatever you've got on it in either the "New Theories" section, or "Pseudo-Science" and we could discuss it.
The accepted reason why you can't change on element into another is due to the theories that underlie the Atomic Bomb. The idea is that, in the process of any element becoming another, energy would be released (or consumed, in some cases) on a scale that's more or less similar to the energy produced by reacting Uranium.
What mechanism do you ascribe to the Atomic Bomb, if you believe that the conversion of Uranium to lighter elements is not what causes the energy to be released in the reaction?
I hear you about the atomic bomb. Actually, even platers can do it. With almost no energy released whatsoever.
Here is the gory part. Platers did have accidents. They were over worked underpaid and their equipment was terrible. Some of their plants have detonated. Air Compressors can explode, in poor operating conditions.
Hydrocyanic gases can be released upon putting out fires. Some have dumped nasty stuff into the sewers and drains. Killed a lot of workers in the plating factories, if only because of the fumes.
I know this does not make anyone happy. But if you saw the movie roots. You might get the idea of where we are. The stupid slave driver has nothing, beating on you and me is all he has left. We take that away, we better have a place to keep the slave driver.
Anybody that taxes people, does not even understand life yet. Who would want others to make stuff for their own home, if you had the time and money to do it yourself? That is the joy of life.
Sincerely,
William McCormick
Would you answer kojax's question now? He is interested in your idea. Some might think it rude to avoid answering it, which is what you have done. Here, since you seem to have missed it, is the question again: "What mechanism do you ascribe to the Atomic Bomb?"
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