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Thread: Carolina Bay Theories

  1. #1 Carolina Bay Theories 
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    From what I have read and seen for myself, as a former local area resident, Carolina Bays are flat bottomed, circular depressions. They range from a few feet to tens of feet in depth and from a few acres to thousands of acres in area; usually filled with water, when not drained for agriculture. Many hundreds of thousands are evident on the Central Atlantic coastal plains of the USA; along with many thousands of faint impressions suggesting earlier structures, called "Ghost Bays." Carolina Bays are named for the "Bay Trees" most commonly found in them by early explorers. However, it should be noted that similar structures, with many different names, can be found over much of Earth's surface. In Colorado, Oklahoma, Texas and Wyoming we call them “Buffalo Wallows.”

    The most popular theory I've read about has all the many hundreds of thousands of Carolina Bays formed by impacts from fragments of meteors or comets. However, the age of deposits inside varied widely, which would seem to require hundreds of thousands of different fragments from thousands of different meteors or comets to impact a limited area over tens of thousands of years. Furthermore, ALL the “impact sites” appear to be formed in the same NE direction. I believe it would illogical for ALL the thousands of meteors or comets to only travel in the same direction.

    Also, I have yet to discovered a valid reference to any shocked quartz or any fragments of meteors being been found in these depressions. Plus, their flat bottoms and the relatively level layers of geologic strata, indicating the absence of distortion from above, appear to rule out any impacts by anything.

    Some claim high pressure winds formed these structures, something I consider physically impossible. Strong winds can form long rows of sand dunes, but not circular structures of widely varied sizes, surrounded by 10 to 30 foot high and equally wide borders of sand; which would have been blown away by the high winds which would have had existed over many thousands of years.

    A few believe swirling water currents somehow produced these structures, with the assumption that the coastal plains where they are now located and formed were then under water; which may be a possibility. This is an interesting concept, but not likely when one considers the destructive power of wave action, especially during storm surges. Ocean waves simply would have wiped out the still existing borders of sand; just as they often do to sea walls and other man made structures built to resist erosion along sea shores, which would be far more substantial than circular sand dunes.

    Finally, the direction of the long axis of the oval depressions, world wide, appears to be uniformly aligned with the slope of surrounding soils. I believe this demonstrates a physical relationship with the angle of preexisting geological deposits and little else, effectively eliminating meteors, comets, wind, water and even fish spawning.

    Meanwhile, I am aware of international research teams drilling 1.25 cm diameter holes in and around many of these depressions, around two meters deep; where the soils are above water. Substantial amounts of hydrogen gas are being detected inside the depressions' borders, with very little or no hydrogen gas found outside. This is the same result in similar depressions tested in the USA [North & South Carolina, Nebraska] as well as in Russia, Ukraine and Oman, Africa.

    What I found more interesting was the fact that little or no hydrocarbons were found. In addition, when the vegetation within some depressions was set on fire, by lightening or man, fires would often spread over relatively large areas. Some fires then resisted being extinguished and lasted for weeks. Their flames also appeared nearly invisible after the vegetation was burnt off. This is a characteristic of hydrogen gas fueled fire, unlike the more colorful flames resulting from decayed vegetation gases or natural gas fires; which can also last for extended periods. [This results from first hand interviews with Carolina Bay land owners who have personally witnessed such fires.]

    Vegetation is also affected by increased hydrogen gas emissions. The difference is visible to the naked eye, with crops, grasses, shrub or trees appearing markedly paler in color and the exposed ground exhibiting a whitish or light gray color. Ultra-violet photographs will also clearly indicate the presence of hydrogen gas emissions within these depressions, but I have yet to see any similar photographs showing hydrogen emerging outside the depressions.

    Water is most commonly associated with hydrogen emissions, which is understandable since hydrogen is a reactive gas and can combine with oxides to form water [HHO]. Indeed, many Carolina Bay type structures have fresh water springs in their depths; the water flow of which appears to have no carbon 14 and therefore could not have originated from rainfall or surface runoff.

    In Africa, some oasis water holes are thought to be evidence of hydrogen emissions creating water by combining with sub-surface oxides; in areas with no useful rainfall for extended periods. One oasis village in Mali, Africa, had a well drilled in search of pure water, but it produced 98% hydrogen gas. So a hydrogen powered generator was installed to provide electricity. When a driller asked the village chieftain what he wanted most from their new found electrical power, he answered, “Refrigeration to make Ice Cream.” [He got it.]

    Now other companies are considering drilling exclusively for hydrogen gas, but that activity has some potentially dangerous problems; which I first encountered while working with Shell Oil, starting in 1956. [Which dates me.] I can report first hand that many deep wells also produced large amounts of hydrogen gas and related compounds. So much so almost all of them where shut down.

    One possible answer to how relatively flat plains became populated by circular depressions is based on the fact that hydrogen atoms are small enough to uniquely reside within the molecules of many other elements. Their internal presence creates no increase in sample size; only increased density. Hydrogen atoms can also pass slowly through other molecules, much like water moves through underground aquifers. [I have personally participated in this research, but do not expect Shell Oil to share the results.]

    However, when the parent element molecules are stressed by external forces, hydrogen atoms can effuse more rapidly from within the other elements and combine to form hydrogen molecules between their grain boundaries; splitting them apart. This ability of hydrogen atoms to pass through other elements as well as weaken their grain boundary bonds makes the storage and pipeline transport of hydrogen a difficult, expensive and potentially wasteful process. This behavior of hydrogen is known in the materials industry as Hydrogen Embrittlement, a continuing threat to the strength of materials. This is a serious problem due to the failures of drilling equipment utilized in deep wells; which are often found to be saturated with hydrogen gas and related hydrogen compounds; H2S, H2SO4.

    I suggest that Carolina Bay type depressions might have been formed by hydrogen gas emissions; which may have had a greater flow rate in the past. I suspect that hydrogen gas emissions were the result of increased stresses created by a more active period of earth tides and were substantial enough to allow the combining hydrogen molecules to produce an expansion of Earth's crustal layers. If so, this could then elevate the surface of the ground in a circular manner; in effect a hydrogen bubble. [The slow application of stresses may allow for less distortion, because of their Modulus of Elasticity. This should reduce the amount of hydrogen molecules which may migrate to these boundaries; decreasing the swelling of materials.]

    In nature, any elevated surface will eventually become weathered and eroded surface materials will be deposited at the base of elevated surfaces. Then, it seems likely to me, that with a decrease in the flow rate of hydrogen emissions, the elevated surface will deflate and become a flat bottomed, circular or oval depression, surrounded by a now relatively elevated border composed of the eroded materials.

    Unfortunately, there seems to be a mindset against the existence of free hydrogen in earth and what little is available about hydrogen emissions from earth appears to be mainly associated with biological origins. However, the fact remains that hydrogen gas and related compounds appear to constitute the greatest mass of any element emerging from volcanic activity. Plus, after drilling 7.6 miles deep into Russia's Kola Peninsula, project geologists were quoted as “surprised to find mainly hydrogen gas and water.” In addition, no radioactive elements were found, which have long been assumed to create Earth's internal heat flow.

    Another physical fact to consider: When hydrogen liquid or gas combines with oxygen (oxides), an exothermic reaction may result. This can be as hot as 3,200 C degrees (5,792 F); hot enough to melt rock and possibly duplicate the deep earth seismic conditions now attributed to “molten magma.” This is possibly why many deeper water Carolina Bays do not freeze over during intensely cold weather; while man-made lakes often do. (Just a personal observation.)

    Because hydrogen gas “seeps” are found all over the world, the concept of utilizing hydrogen gas wells to obtain sufficient quantities of hydrogen to power electrical generating systems and produce substantial amounts of anhydrous ammonia for fuel and fertilizer may become a world changing activity. However, just for my personal interest, If anyone knows for sure as to how the “Carolina Bays” were formed, I would sincerely appreciate their explanation.


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  3. #2  
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    I guess we can rule out glaciers.

    I'd suppose they're a sort of sink, something collapsed underneath, but the perimeter rubble demands explanation. That's weird!

    Where else we have such rubble, is from human activity. On the BC coast lately, we've discovered "clam gardens" - walls of rocks protecting muddy beaches , consolidated this way by thousands of years of clam harvest. We used to assume these were natural features.

    Sorry I can't help with the hydrogen hypothesis, I'm just tossing up alternate explanations.


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  4. #3 Yellowstone NP Mud Pots, mini Carolina Bays?T 
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    From my past experience, I must stick with the hydrogen hypothesis for expansion and deflation as a cause for the Bays, but I am open to considering any alternative. It should be noted that the Bays have their borders with the greatest amount of eroded materials, usually sand, at the lowest ground elevation end of ovals. Which makes sense when erosion is a factor. Another flaw for the impact strike theory is that impacts always have little or no mass/borders at the entry point of impacts and an elevated mass at the end where the impact ceased; which would be the upper end for the Bays. If anyone has been to Yellowstone NP and seen the action in the Mud Pots, when the gas bubbles deflate they form borders around the once elevated bubble. These last for a short time, but duplicate the longer lasting Carolina Bays to a great degree; circular, shallow depressions with borders which can overlap, even appear inside one another.
    Last edited by coden33; January 13th, 2014 at 08:51 PM. Reason: adding useful words for easier understanding
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    Revision: From what I have read and seen for myself, as a former North Carolina resident, Carolina Bays are flat bottomed, circular depressions. They range from a few feet to tens of feet in depth and from a few acres to thousands of acres in area; usually filled with water, when not drained for agriculture. Many thousands are evident on the Central Atlantic coastal plains of the USA. However, it should be noted that similar structures, with many different names, can be found over much of Earth's surface. Here in Colorado, Texas and Wyoming we call them “Buffalo Wallows.”

    The most popular theory I've read about has the hundreds of thousands of Carolina Bays formed by impacts from fragments of meteors or comets. However, the age of deposits inside varied widely, which would seem to require hundreds of thousands of different fragments from thousands of different meteors or comets to impact a limited area over tens of thousands of years. Furthermore, ALL the “impact sites” appear to be formed in the same NE direction and I believe it would illogical for ALL the thousands of meteors or comets to travel only in the same direction.

    Also, I have yet to discovered a valid reference to any shocked quartz or any fragments of meteors being been found in these depressions. Plus, their flat bottoms and the relatively level layers of geologic strata appear to rule out any impacts by anything.

    Others believe high pressure winds formed these structures, something I consider physically impossible. Strong winds can form long rows of sand dunes, but not circular structures, surrounded by 10 to 30 foot high borders of sand; which would have been blown away by high winds.

    A few believe swirling water currents somehow produced these structures, with the assumption that the areas where they are now located were then under water. This is an interesting concept, but not likely when one considers the destructive power of wave action, especially during storm surges, which would have wiped out the still existing borders of sand; just as they do to sea walls and man made structures built to resist erosion along sea shores
    [a].

    However, the direction of the long axis of oval depressions, world wide, appears to be uniformly aligned with the slope of surrounding soils. I believe this demonstrates a physical relationship with the angle of preexisting geological deposits and little else, effectively eliminating meteors, comets, wind, water and even fish spawning.

    Meanwhile, I am aware of international research teams drilling 1.25 cm diameter holes in and around many of these depressions, around two meters deep; where the soils were above water. Substantial amounts of hydrogen gas were detected inside the depressions' borders, with very little or none found outside. This was the same result in similar depressions tested in the USA [North & South Carolina, Nebraska] as well as in Russia, Ukraine and Oman, Africa[b].

    What I found more interesting was the fact that little or no hydrocarbons were found. In addition, when the vegetation within some depressions was set on fire, by lightening or man, fires would often spread over relatively large areas. Some fires resisted being extinguished and lasted for weeks. Their flames also appeared nearly invisible after the vegetation was burnt off. Pure hydrogen-oxygen flames emit ultraviolet light and with high oxygen mix are nearly invisible to the naked eye [c]. This is a characteristic of hydrogen gas fueled fire, unlike the more colorful flames resulting from decayed vegetation gases or natural gas fires; which can also last for extended periods. [This results from first hand interviews with Carolina Bay land owners who have personally witnessed such fires.]

    Vegetation is also affected by increased hydrogen gas emissions. The difference is visible to the naked eye, with crops, grasses, shrub or trees appearing markedly paler in color and the exposed ground exhibiting whitish hue. Ultra-violet photographs will also clearly indicate the presence of hydrogen gas emissions within these depressions, but I have yet to see any similar photographs showing any hydrogen emerging outside the depressions.

    Water is most commonly associated with hydrogen emissions, which is understandable since hydrogen is a reactive gas and can combine with oxides to form water [HHO]. Indeed, many Carolina Bay type structures have fresh water springs in their depths; the water flow of which appears to have no carbon 14 and therefore could not have originated from rainfall or surface runoff.

    In Africa, some oasis water holes are thought to be evidence of hydrogen emissions creating water by combining with sub-surface oxides; in areas with no useful rainfall for extended periods. One oasis village in Mali, Africa, had a well drilled in search of pure water, but the produced 99% hydrogen gas[d]. So a hydrogen powered generator was installed to provide electricity. When a driller asked the village chieftain what he wanted most from their new found electrical power, he answered, “Refrigeration to make Ice Cream.” [He got it.]

    Now other companies are considering drilling exclusively for hydrogen gas[e], but that activity has some potentially dangerous problems; which I first encountered while working with Shell Oil, starting in 1957. [Which dates me.] I can report first hand that many deep wells also produced large amounts of hydrogen gas and related compounds. So much so almost all of them where shut down.

    One possible answer to how relatively flat plains became populated by circular depressions is based on the fact that hydrogen atoms are small enough to uniquely reside within the molecules of many other elements. Their internal presence creates no increase in sample size; only increased density. Hydrogen atoms can also pass slowly through other molecules, much like water moves through underground aquifers. [I have personally participated in this research, but do not expect Shell Oil to share the results.]

    However, when the parent element molecules are stressed by external forces, hydrogen atoms can effuse more rapidly from within the other elements and combine to form hydrogen molecules between their grain boundaries; splitting them apart. This ability of hydrogen atoms to pass through other elements as well as weaken their grain boundary bonds makes the storage and pipeline transport of hydrogen a difficult, expensive and potentially wasteful process. This behavior of hydrogen is known in the materials industry as Hydrogen Embrittlement, a continuing threat to the strength of materials[f]. This is a serious problem due to the failures of drilling equipment utilized in deep wells; which are often found to be saturated with hydrogen gas and related hydrogen compounds.

    I suggest that Carolina Bay type depressions appear to have been formed by hydrogen gas emissions; which may have had a greater flow rate in the past. I suspect that hydrogen gas emissions were the result of increased stresses created by a more active period of earth tides and were substantial enough to allow the combining hydrogen molecules to produce an expansion of Earth's crustal layers. If so, this could then elevate the surface of the ground in a circular manner; in effect a hydrogen bubble. [The slow application of stresses may allow for less distortion, because of their Modulus of Elasticity. This should reduce the amount of hydrogen molecules which may migrate to these boundaries; decreasing the swelling of materials.]

    In nature, any elevated surface will eventually become weathered and eroded surface materials will be deposited around the base of the elevated surfaces. Then it seems likely to me, that with a decrease in the flow rate of hydrogen emissions, the elevated surface will deflate and become a flat bottomed, circular or oval depression, surrounded by a now elevated border still composed of the eroded materials.

    Unfortunately, there seems to be a mindset against the existence of free hydrogen and what little is published about hydrogen emissions appears to be mainly associated with biological origins. However, after drilling 7.6 miles deep into Russia's Kola Peninsula, project geologists “discovered vast quantities of hydrogen gas, so much that the mud flowing out of the drilling shaft was “boiling” with it[ g]. In addition, no radioactive elements were found, which have long been assumed to create Earth's internal heat flow.

    Another physical fact to consider: When hydrogen liquid or gas combines with oxygen (oxides), an exothermic reaction may result. This can be as hot as 3,200 C degrees (5,792 F)[h]. This is exceeds by far the temperature to melt rock and possibly duplicate the deep earth seismic conditions now attributed to “molten magma.” This is possibly why many deeper water Carolina Bays do not freeze over during intensely cold weather; while man-made lakes often do. (Just a personal observation.)

    Because hydrogen gas “seeps” are found all over the world, the concept of utilizing hydrogen gas wells to obtain sufficient quantities of hydrogen to power electrical generating systems and produce substantial amounts of anhydrous ammonia for fuel and fertilizer may become a world changing activity. Indeed, such an opinion has been expressed in the past, in relationship to a hydrogen gas field discovered in Kansas, 1985[k]. However, since I am always learning and never certain I am always correct, just for my personal interest, If anyone knows for sure as to how the “Carolina Bays” were formed, I would sincerely appreciate their explanation.
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  7. #6  
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    I suspect that hydrogen gas emissions were the result of increased stresses created by a more active period of earth tides
    When do you think this happened? You have to go back hundreds of millions of years to see a substantial change in tidal forcing; unless you had some configuration of bays that created a local increase.

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    In regards to Land [Earth] Tides, there is something, which I am the first to admit I am not sure what, possibly created the conditions within the earth which caused hydrogen atoms to effuse into crystalline grain boundaries. In review, within materials, hydrogen atoms can form hydrogen molecules, expanding the surrounding materials. This I believe is a likely answer to the formation of Carolina Bay and many similar structures all over the world.

    This is a procedure I have done myself under laboratory conditions while researching the effects of hydrogen embrittlement on drilling equipment. However, I have personally found that the frequency of applied stresses is a factor in hydrogen effusion, with a higher frequency, greater amounts of hydrogen molecules will form between grain boundaries. With a lower frequency, little or no molecules will form, even if the physical distortion of crystalline structure is greater.

    By this process, expansion would cause the earth's surface to rise to a slight degree, a hydrogen bubble, but still likely be sufficient enough for surface materials to be eroded and gravitate to a position around the base of the elevated surface. Then, with fewer hydrogen atoms forming molecules, the earth would deflate, leaving the eroded debris around a relatively slight depression as a border.

    The question in my mind is not that hydrogen expansion and deflation exist, in conjunction with surface erosion and borders of debris, but what caused the molecules to form in the first place?

    Clearly it must have occurred above water, because the borders of fine sand would have been washed away by wave action. However, there are faint images underlying the present depressions which suggest there were earlier Carolina Bays in the distant past which might have been later covered with water subject to wave action; since we know from wave cut terraces, above and below, that sea levels are hardly constant.

    As for hydrogen expansion and deflation of materials, I have some experience in what causes hydrogen atoms to combine into molecules, inside other materials. However, this is not the issue of my concern. I am mainly interested in any other theories which might explain better the origin of Carolina Bay type structures; since I have been wrong before.

    In regard to only slight changes in Land Tide frequency over time, I can only “suspect” that Earth Tides might be the motivating factor, since nothing else seems to be able to provide the type of force to cause hydrogen atoms to effuse into grain boundaries.

    Note that I wrote “type” because crystals can be distorted slowly without producing any hydrogen effusion, whereas rapid distortions or vibration can result in greater effusion even with less physical movement or external stress.

    Currently, Earth Tides are conjoined with the Moon's rotation. 620 million years ago[a], the day was 21.9 hours. Unfortunately, this time period is greater than the oldest deposits found within most depressions[b]. However, only a slightly shorter day with slightly more frequent applications of tidal forces during the time of Carolina Bay formation might have some effect if the harmonic frequency of the soils is involved[c].

    [a] Tidal acceleration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This geological record is consistent with these conditions 620 million years ago: the day was 21.9±0.4 hours.
    The average recession rate of the Moon between then and now has been 2.17±0.31 cm/year, which is about half the present rate.

    [b] Carolina Bay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and The Carolina Bays

    Amplitude is greatest when moon and sun are aligned, least when moon and sun oppose.

    Frequency is a factor in hydrogen effusion, higher frequency, greater amounts of hydrogen molecules will form between grain boundaries. Lower frequency, little or none will form, even if distortion is greater. So slight distortions within crystalline structure can be absorbed if applied slowly.

    [c] Land Tides or Earth Tides

    Scientists have not yet found any correlations between land tides and earthquakes but they have found a relationship between the tides and volcanic eruptions because of the movement of magma or molten rock inside volcanoes (USGS). To view an in depth discussion about land tides, read D.C. Agnew's 2007 article, "Earth Tides." (PDF)
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    You mention experiments. Which ones specifically? What were their results? Where they published anywhere? The dates do not match. You haven't put together a sound hypothesis that ties tidal forces and hydrogen formation. You have a lot of rhetoric but no figures that show your ideas, or any sort of modeling.

    Your post up till now reads entirely like pseudoscience.

    Please put something substantial or it will be moved.
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    Published experiments: With all due respect, any experiments designed to identify and correct material failures within which I was an active research participate were with The Shell [Oil] Development Corp and the US Air Force. Neither of these organizations has ever published any details regarding these experiments of which I am aware. Later, I was CEO of a corporation devoted to the design and marketing of inflight material failure detection devices. Currently, I am Administrator of an international corporation engaged in hydrogen applications research and development. Neither of which has published any information on their research activities. I suspect a considerable amount of experimental activity by most industrial organizations are considered proprietary information and not published. I know I would sure like to find out what some of our competitors have discovered.

    Results: I have described the results of related experiments, of which I have first hand knowledge as a hands-on participant, which found that hydrogen atoms can infuse into many, but not all materials, and these atoms can reside inside other molecules and not add to the sample size, only increase the sample density, then, upon internal effusion, hydrogen atoms can combine between grain boundaries as hydrogen molecules and expand the sample size. This is a major industrial hazard to this day, with many lives lost as a direct result of often fatal material failures caused by hydrogen effusion. I included an updated reference regarding that behavior. Public indifference, even scientific ignorance can be excused, but hydrogen embrittlement is hardly pseudoscience.

    What dates do not match? Why do you feel that is an issue? Seems like nitpicking to me.

    Sound hypothesis tying Tidal Force and hydrogen formation? I don't know if the two are conjoined, but Land Tidal Force is the only factor I can think of which might cause hydrogen atoms to effuse into hydrogen molecules; creating possible expansion within Carolina Bays. There might be another factor of which I am not aware, but at least I can freely admit I don't know it all.

    Sorry about what you personally consider an excess of “rhetoric.” I have been accused of “rambling” by others in the past, so I plead guilty.

    No figures? None available. I am aware of the physical behavior involved in the hydrogen embrittlement process and have described that behavior as a possible answer to the formation of Carolina Bays; expansion and deflation. What kind of “figures” were you expecting?

    Modeling? Descriptive examples seems to me to be sufficient. What do you expect?

    Frankly, I am fascinated by Carolina Bays, having lived in their midst. On a warm Carolina morning I remember walking on a white sand berm surrounding a large pond, filled with water, waterfowl and some turtles sunning themselves along the edges. There was no wind and bubbles could be seen popping up in the water. “Swamp gas” the locals called it. Some water was draining out at one end and I was told the pond never went dry and didn't freeze in the winter. There were others, much larger in the area, and I often stood there taking in the peaceful view and wondering, “What the hell created this?”

    What I asked science forum members is that if any might have a better explanation for the formation of Carolina Bays. I am not demanding that my rambling suggestion is the correct explanation and have freely admitted I really don't know what is true. But I would appreciate a positive response if any member has other theory might prove to be a better answer; since the currently popular theories of meteors, comets, wind, water and fish spawning are obviously improbable.

    However, I am also fascinated by those whom have apparently spent so much time on their convoluted mathematical computations trying prove their pet theories, in spite of logical impossibilities. I am equally fascinated by the apparent inability of the same, who may sincerely believe in their (impossible) theories, to refuse to consider any alternative and often aggressively attack every nitpicking detail of any alternative offered to them and then avoid any reasonable response.

    After some consideration and the lack of positive alternatives from members, I shall not bore you further.

    [a] http://www.uni-saarland.de/fak8/wwm/...h/hydrogen.pdf
    Dr.-Ing. Afrooz Barnoush, December 1, 2011
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by coden33 View Post
    After some consideration and the lack of positive alternatives from members, I shall not bore you further.
    Thanks.
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