# Thread: Randomized serialization

1. Randomized serialization

The need of serial numbers is everlasting and misuse of the same is constant because they are predictable numbers. They come in numerical order. They cannot be used as random/unique codes because of their simple numerical order.

Unique numbers also are basically serial numbers but they are randomly picked up from the serial. Creation of such unique numbers/codes in large quantity needs mathematical algorithm which is always cracked and the codes accessed by hackers.

I have found a new system that creates numeric and alphanumeric unique codes one cannot crack/break.

These codes can be used as serial numbers as well random codes.

The idea that struck to me is so simple that it might be in use already, I fear. But I have not come across this idea before so I dare put it here.

My simple idea is this.

Whatever be the serial number, add one/two or desired random digits to it.

For example:------------See these predictable 11 digits serial numbers

12345678901, 12345678902, 12345678903, 12345678904, 12345678905
12345678906, 12345678907, 12345678908, 12345678909, 12345678910.

Now I turn them into 12 digits random codes by adding single random digit, without disturbing their property.

123456789016, 123456789024, 123456789033, 123456789049, 123456789050
123456789065, 123456789074, 123456789088, 123456789093, 123456789101.

Above numbers are useful for serialization as well they can be used as random codes wherever necessary.

2.

3. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Randomized serialization{snip}
Didn't you already have a thread on this topic? I believe it was on a specific application for addressing the counterfeit-meds problem. What is your purpose for bringing it up again?

4. Originally Posted by uday yadav
I have found a new system that creates numeric and alphanumeric unique codes one cannot crack/break.
It seems very easy to crack using a simple brute force method.

5. Originally Posted by tk421
Originally Posted by uday yadav
Randomized serialization{snip}
Didn't you already have a thread on this topic? I believe it was on a specific application for addressing the counterfeit-meds problem. What is your purpose for bringing it up again?

See if you are capable to understanding the difference between following two totally different inventions.

BOTTLE of WHISKY.

Don’t ask empty or full, because that has nothing to do with these inventions.

YES. You are right about counterfeit solution. SUN on PPC, Split Unique Number on Product Protection Cover is being accepted on big scale by FMCG manufacturers in India. It is expected to be launched by one edible oil manufacturer in few months. Then it will spread globally and instantly.

6. For those products my company manufactures the predictability and sequential character of serial numbers is a major asset. Your proposed solution would cause us many problems.

7. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I have found a new system that creates numeric and alphanumeric unique codes one cannot crack/break.
It seems very easy to crack using a simple brute force method.
It only seems very easy to crack but it is not at all. It is as difficult as predicting the exact number at the gambling cards or roulette.

Or to say that the lion is able to kill a bull but unable to kill a fly.

8. Originally Posted by John Galt
For those products my company manufactures the predictability and sequential character of serial numbers is a major asset. Your proposed solution would cause us many problems.

I am failing to understand what you wrote above.

9. I want the serial numbers to be sequential since this helps to track date of manufacture and order of manufacture, and simplifies identification of batch numbers and types. Your process would totally screw this up.

10. Originally Posted by John Galt
I want the serial numbers to be sequential since this helps to track date of manufacture and order of manufacture, and simplifies identification of batch numbers and types. Your process would totally screw this up.
You have a misunderstanding about this. The serial numbers you are using at present with inclusion of date of manufacture, order of manufacture and batch number etc for track n trace. Right?

There is no need to disturb your order of Sr. number formation. It is proven useful to you. Adding a single digit or an alphabet or even some kinds of signs randomly at the end of each of your sequential Sr. number will not disturb the efficiency of your system a bit. While track n tracing you can just ignore the presence of this additional identity.

This is not there to help the procedure of track n trace neither to disturb it. It is there to keep persons of bad intent at length.

For you, your serial numbers retain their sequence as efficiently as before but lose it for bad persons.

I suggest one more thing to you. Start your serial number with MRP to protect it from misuse

11. John Galt,

12345678901--------------------6,
12345678902--------------------4,
12345678903--------------------3,
12345678904--------------------9,
12345678905--------------------0,
12345678906--------------------5,
12345678907--------------------4,
12345678908--------------------8,
12345678909--------------------3,
12345678910--------------------1.

Above is an example of your serial numbers assuming 12345678901 to 12345678910 represent date of manufacture and batch number etc.

These numbers will give you benefits of their uniqueness as well numerical sequence.

12. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I have found a new system that creates numeric and alphanumeric unique codes one cannot crack/break.
It seems very easy to crack using a simple brute force method.
It only seems very easy to crack but it is not at all.
It is easy to crack.
All you have done is add a tiny bit more complexity.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
It is as difficult as predicting the exact number at the gambling cards or roulette.
No it isn't.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
Or to say that the lion is able to kill a bull but unable to kill a fly.
It is very easy to say that the lion is able to kill a bull but unable to kill a fly.

13. Originally Posted by uday yadav
These numbers will give you benefits of their uniqueness as well numerical sequence.
And with only the minor inconvenience of an additional random digit.
Pretty simple.
Pretty simple to crack.

14. I thank you, uday, for your explanation. However, I can see no benefit in my applications for this process. I shall accept that there may be other applications where this feature would be a benefit. It certainly offers no visible benefit to me.

15. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
These numbers will give you benefits of their uniqueness as well numerical sequence.
And with only the minor inconvenience of an additional random digit.
Pretty simple.
Pretty simple to crack.
RedPanda,

Please keep it a secret. At least at present no one is suspecting that this is a foolish idea and RedPanda can pretty simply crack it.

We will make a deal. You stop criticism and let me sell my idea and make some money from it. I will give you your fair share of keeping your mouth shut.

16. Originally Posted by John Galt
I thank you, uday, for your explanation. However, I can see no benefit in my applications for this process. I shall accept that there may be other applications where this feature would be a benefit. It certainly offers no visible benefit to me.
I am relieved. It seems that I am the first person to have attached smallest random value to the serialized/ sequential values to transform the whole sequence into a lot of unfathomable unique codes.

John Galt,

Very few companies like yours that don’t have fear of the misuse of serialization.

At present Sproxil, a US based company and SecurePharma are the two companies which provide mobile authentication solution to check fake drugs, are printing unique codes on medicinal strips for malaria. These strips are for Nigeria and other countries of Africa. It is observed that 1/3 of the strips are fakes but their codes are real. This is a real problem.

If these companies come across my idea and want to use it to uniquely identify malarial drugs with it. They are welcome. As they are not making profit from this, and I don’t have any kind of control over my idea, I am in no position to ask for money.

17. Originally Posted by uday yadav
At least at present no one is suspecting that this is a foolish idea...
Are you sure?
I can think of at least one person that knows it is a foolish idea...

Originally Posted by uday yadav
We will make a deal. You stop criticism and let me sell my idea and make some money from it.
Can you work out what is actually stopping you from selling and making money from your idea?
I'll give you a clue: it isn't me.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
I will give you your fair share of keeping your mouth shut.
I guess you have little option but to pretend your idea has merit.

18. Originally Posted by uday yadav
At least at present no one is suspecting that this is a foolish idea

Apart from RedPanda and all those who simply read your first post and realised it was too ridiculous to be taken seriously?

19. I remember a quote from Alan Turing:
"Cracking the German Enigma machines was difficult enough. Thank god they didn't add a random number to the end of their messages else they would have won the war!"

20. I can understand your problem.

It is really foolish of all of us to have missed my foolish idea until now. It is now one month since I found it. Then it took me and my son three weeks to believe in it. The revelation that why on earth no one could come across this foolish idea yet was really shocking for us.

And then preparing the required papers I applied for patent in the Intellectual Property India office in Mumbai on 20th Oct. 2013.

Industry needs random numbers badly because these numbers cannot be guessed. But they need these numbers in billions. So creation of random numbers needs some kind of mathematical algorithm that electronically creates them at very high speed.

This algorithm has restrictions like never to repeat a number twice. Algorithm breakers/hackers first understand these restrictions and then they can understand the whole algorithm. Once they find the properties of an algorithm they can easily crack it.

So every algorithm based on mathematics is prone to attack.

In fact and to be honest, I am not a mathematician. I think above idea that will need some kind of algorithm to create a single digit to be attached to a serial number will not be restricted by condition of ‘No Repetition.’

I only hope that such algorithm or algorithms will be free to fight out threat of algorithm breakers.

21. Originally Posted by uday yadav
In fact and to be honest, I am not a mathematician.

Nor rational.
Adding a single digit will allow a maximum of ten items to have a code.
Is production supposed to stop until the following day once those ten have been coded?

I only hope that such algorithm or algorithms will be free to fight out threat of algorithm breakers.

22. Originally Posted by uday yadav
And then preparing the required papers I applied for patent in the Intellectual Property India office in Mumbai on 20th Oct. 2013.
I recommend never posting about your 'idea' again, until your patent comes through.

23. Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
Originally Posted by uday yadav
In fact and to be honest, I am not a mathematician.

Nor rational.
Adding a single digit will allow a maximum of ten items to have a code.
Is production supposed to stop until the following day once those ten have been coded?

I only hope that such algorithm or algorithms will be free to fight out threat of algorithm breakers.

Please understand. This single digit is there to break the sequence of the serial codes.

Suppose that you want to give serial codes/numbers to your best quality 1000 items and send them to 10 different places and you want to know which particular items reached which particular place. All items are similar in appearance. That’s why you give them serial numbers.

Your first serial number is 1001 so naturally/serially your last serial number is to be 2000. When they are sent to ten places you can know by checking the numbers that the delivery is completed successfully.

The problem arises only when on the way your 100 items out of your 1000 items are diverted elsewhere and replaced by some cheap quality but almost similar looking 100 items. Your delivery will be Okayed. But your customer will receive cheap items.

You can keep check on this theft by my single digit. It does not stop production line. When you print your serial numbers at the same time you have to print these single digits along with them. This process is not time consuming.

Once you print your 1000 serial numbers with single digits attached, they remained saved along with your serial numbers.

Now if someone wants to replace your 100 items with cheap items he will have to know each single random digit attached to each item’s serial number. This is impossible because though he is able to know serial numbers he cannot knoe the attached random digit. It is safely saved in your custody.

Thus adding single/double digit to serialization is not a burden but useful.

24. Not this again. Geez. You seem to have a woo-like devotion to this serial number thing....fixing problems that aren't really there.

25. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
And then preparing the required papers I applied for patent in the Intellectual Property India office in Mumbai on 20th Oct. 2013.
I recommend never posting about your 'idea' again, until your patent comes through.
It suggests 2 things.

First is I will stop posting about such a foolish idea forever because you are sure the patent office will never award me patent for this.

Second shows you are good at heart and wish my best. I go with second.

I thank you for this. But I have deliberately put it here. I want the concerned people take notice of it and start its use. The clients I have in my mind are so big that they cannot use my idea without my consent.

26. Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
Not this again. Geez. You seem to have a woo-like devotion to this serial number thing....fixing problems that aren't really there.
Dear MacGyver1968. Thank you for remembering my that thread.

Product theft or identity theft may not be a problem in US or at least in Texas but elsewhere all over the world it is growing at alarming rate.

Security and protection along with construction is my field. Last time my idea concerned about the problem of securing product in the container.

This is my new invention and it gives security to serial codes.

These are totally different inventions like bottle and whiskey.

27. Originally Posted by uday yadav
I want the concerned people take notice of it and start its use.
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

28. Except that bottles of whiskey serve a useful purpose...they help ugly people get laid. Serial numbers are used so that manufacturers can track their product during production, and after it leaves the facility. There really isn't a need for security. There are much better and cheaper ways to show a product's "genuineness"....but we've been over this.

29. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I want the concerned people take notice of it and start its use.
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

On the forum, named ‘The Anti-counterfeiting’ (LinkedIn) one member declared that algorithm based on mathematics is bound to be cracked.

I have placed my idea there as a challenge to him and others who boast of their skills at breaking/destroying everything manmade.

If my idea is not stolen here, the most active science forum, then there is little hope elsewhere.

30. Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
Except that bottles of whiskey serve a useful purpose...they help ugly people get laid. Serial numbers are used so that manufacturers can track their product during production, and after it leaves the facility. There really isn't a need for security. There are much better and cheaper ways to show a product's "genuineness"....but we've been over this.

“Counterfeiting of electronic components used in defense and aerospace systems poses a major threat to equipment, personnel, and even national security. Legislators, such as Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin and Ranking Member John McCain, and industry experts have highlighted the dangers of failure or malfunction of used semiconductors and other components that have been refurbished to appear new.”

Above info is not about any other country but United States of America. The counterfeiters have been supplying their genuine in appearance spare parts to defense and aerospace departments of US.

You are repeatedly showing off your ignorance of the subject as a virtue of US. Whereas you should be informed how US Army, the most powerful army is fighting unsuccessfully with counterfeit parts.

Combating Counterfeits in the Supply Chain | IHS

Counterfeit Parts | Discussions from a defense and aerospace community perspective. * *| * © Henry Livingston

MacGyver1968, please read above pages and you will agree that the only solution that will ever stop the counterfeiting in US Army is with Uday Yadav.

31. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I want the concerned people take notice of it and start its use.
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

On the forum, named ‘The Anti-counterfeiting’ (LinkedIn) one member declared that algorithm based on mathematics is bound to be cracked.

I have placed my idea there as a challenge to him and others who boast of their skills at breaking/destroying everything manmade.

If my idea is not stolen here, the most active science forum, then there is little hope elsewhere.
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

32. Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
Not this again. Geez. You seem to have a woo-like devotion to this serial number thing....fixing problems that aren't really there.
Well Mr. MacGyver...I am like CLUELESS

33. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

This question is really difficult to answer. I see the number of viewers whenever I visit this forum and hope one of them might like my idea. Until someone uses it, it won’t get the attention required.

John Galt is one of the concerned people and I hoped he might give it a try but the idea seemed useless to him.

34. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?

This question is really difficult to answer. I see the number of viewers whenever I visit this forum and hope one of them might like my idea. Until someone uses it, it won’t get the attention required.

John Galt is one of the concerned people and I hoped he might give it a try but the idea seemed useless to him.
All but a handful of those "guests" are bots from search engines.

35. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Why do you think that the "concerned people" are reading this forum?
This question is really difficult to answer. I see the number of viewers whenever I visit this forum and hope one of them might like my idea. Until someone uses it, it won’t get the attention required.
John Galt is one of the concerned people and I hoped he might give it a try but the idea seemed useless to him.
Why not submit your idea to a journal - e.g. Journal of Computer Science &middot Science Publications

36. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Why not submit your idea to a journal - e.g. Journal of Computer Science &middot Science Publications

I thank you for the advice. There are many such publications. But they need the inventor to go into an agreement with them. I don’t like such idea. I would pay but agreement is not for me.

37. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Why not submit your idea to a journal - e.g. Journal of Computer Science &middot Science Publications
I thank you for the advice. There are many such publications. But they need the inventor to go into an agreement with them. I don’t like such idea. I would pay but agreement is not for me.
What agreement?
I don't see anything restrictive mentioned on their web-site.

Is it the open access requirement?
Well, if so, you've already posted it on a public forum - it makes no difference.
And they specify that if your article/idea is used anywhere then you must be cited as the author.

38. I thought being published had to do with proven theory. Am I incorrect?

39. Originally Posted by babe
I thought being published had to do with proven theory. Am I incorrect?

New Hypothesis and ideas is a forum that facilitates inventors and idea creators to place their ideas here for evaluation. But most ideas and innovations put here have life of a calf that is left behind unprotected in the jungle surrounded by HUNGRY lions.

My invention is here for a week and unscathed.

That is why I request you to look at my idea as ‘Not disproven yet’.

40. RedPanda,

I cannot bring myself to get bind by any terms or conditions.

Dr. Oliver Worsfold, Program Manager, NineSigma Europe, wrote to me that I have really very relevant ideas for his clients and that he believed that his client would be very interested in my ideas. ( SUN on PPC). But I was reluctant to complete the attached proposal form. And unless I complete the form they cannot proceed further. That is the problem.

41. Originally Posted by uday yadav
My invention is here for a week and unscathed.
Your idea has not gone unscathed.
It has mainly gone ignored, and you have been unable to address the criticisms that were posted.

And I think the main reason that this thread has been ignored is because your idea has already been shown to be bunk in your earlier thread.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
I cannot bring myself to get bind by any terms or conditions.
Why not?
What is wrong with the T&C's?

I repeat: you've already posted it on a public forum!
If someone wanted to 'steal' your idea, then they could.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
Dr. Oliver Worsfold, Program Manager, NineSigma Europe, wrote to me that I have really very relevant ideas for his clients and that he believed that his client would be very interested in my ideas. ( SUN on PPC). But I was reluctant to complete the attached proposal form. And unless I complete the form they cannot proceed further. That is the problem.
Why?
What was wrong with the attached proposal form?

Have you never been employed?
That would have involved signing contracts regarding your very own life.
But you seem unable to sign anything related to your idea.
How does that make sense?

Earlier in this thread you said: "let me sell my idea and make some money from it".
You will not be able to "sell your idea and make money from it" unless you are willing to sign legal documents regarding your idea.

42. Moderator,

I request you to move this thread to Mathematics Forum. Is it possible?

43. RedPanda,

When it comes to inventions my brain works like a queen ant.

Last month I saw that as serial numbers in reality are unique numbers in sequence, attaching a random digit will make them unpredictable unique/random numbers.

Today I found out that if one wants to go with random numbers based on mathematical algorithm he does not have to worry about algorithm crackers anymore. Attaching a random digit to each of his random numbers will make the process totally clueless for algorithm crackers.

I don’t blame any of you your short comings of failing to understand revolutionary powers my ideas hold within.

44. Originally Posted by uday yadav
I don’t blame any of you your short comings of failing to understand revolutionary powers my ideas hold within.
And I don't blame you for making up reasons to avoid professional scrutiny of your ideas.

45. The ‘concerned people’ in my view are manufacturers of branded products. If they come across my idea they will not waste time to pick my idea up that I want.

If a manufacturer comes forward and asks me to make contract I am used to such types of contracts.

But when the end user is not in site, signing in hope in getting one is beyond my limitations of experience. I want to avoid complications if any regarding my ideas. They are extra ordinarily big.

46. I don’t blame any of you your short comings of failing to understand revolutionary powers my ideas hold within.

47. Originally Posted by uday yadav
The ‘concerned people’ in my view are manufacturers of branded products. If they come across my idea they will not waste time to pick my idea up that I want.
If a manufacturer comes forward and asks me to make contract I am used to such types of contracts.
But when the end user is not in site, signing in hope in getting one is beyond my limitations of experience. I want to avoid complications if any regarding my ideas. They are extra ordinarily big.
Most of that was lost in translation.

But if a manufacturer did decide to use your idea, then there is nothing stopping them from doing so.
You have published an un-patented idea on a public forum.

48. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I don’t blame any of you your short comings of failing to understand revolutionary powers my ideas hold within.
And I don't blame you for making up reasons to avoid professional scrutiny of your ideas.

If moderator moves it to mathematics, mathematicians there will not take a moment to kill it in a stroke.

Please request him to do so. It will be a quick death than engaging the paid professionals.

49. Originally Posted by macgyver1968
i don’t blame any of you your short comings of failing to understand revolutionary powers my ideas hold within.

my time is coming.

50. Originally Posted by uday yadav
my time is coming.
...and it will be insignificant.

51. Originally Posted by uday yadav
If moderator moves it to mathematics, mathematicians there will not take a moment to kill it in a stroke.
Please request him to do so. It will be a quick death than engaging the paid professionals.
And again, you are making up excuses for not presenting your idea to professionals*.

* Professionals being "people you want to invest money in your idea", rather than simply "people that know what they are talking about".

52. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
The ‘concerned people’ in my view are manufacturers of branded products. If they come across my idea they will not waste time to pick my idea up that I want.
If a manufacturer comes forward and asks me to make contract I am used to such types of contracts.
But when the end user is not in site, signing in hope in getting one is beyond my limitations of experience. I want to avoid complications if any regarding my ideas. They are extra ordinarily big.
Most of that was lost in translation.

But if a manufacturer did decide to use your idea, then there is nothing stopping them from doing so.
You have published an un-patented idea on a public forum.

That is what I want them to do at present. Its an idea required globally.

53. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
If moderator moves it to mathematics, mathematicians there will not take a moment to kill it in a stroke.<br>
Please request him to do so. It will be a quick death than engaging the paid professionals.
<br>
And again, you are making up excuses for not presenting your idea to professionals*.<br>
<br>
<font size="1">* Professionals being "people you want to invest money in your idea", rather than simply "people that know what they are talking about".</font>

Are you not insulting the whole ‘THE SCIENCE FORUM” for the so-called paid professionals?

54. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Are you not insulting the whole ‘THE SCIENCE FORUM” for the so-called paid professionals?
Nope, I am not.
You can tell that I am not by simply reading what I wrote.

But would you ever accept any criticism posted on this forum?
Your posting history so far says "No".

If this thread was moved to the maths section, you would continue to ignore any criticism.

55. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
But if a manufacturer did decide to use your idea, then there is nothing stopping them from doing so.
You have published an un-patented idea on a public forum.
That is what I want them to do at present. Its an idea required globally.
Then why don't you publish your idea in a scientific journal?

56. Yes. I must have ignored the criticism that was directed exactly towards merits of my idea. My critics said that my idea is not workable. The random number that comes out to be attached can be guessed by simple mathematical calculations. There are many simple algorithms ready to guess simple and single digit random number.

Actually the critics already knew that single digit appearing randomly will create certain problems so they were well prepared to deal with it. When I posted the idea they just appeared and killed my idea. It is already dead. But arrogantly I am not accepting the defeat.

Yes. I accept defeat of my idea.

I am really loving to accept the defeat. But what should I do to the arrogance that has sprang out of my honesty?

57. Yes. I accept there must be something wrong with my idea. But will any one of the critics sincerely explain to me in this thread how my idea will not work, how the random digit will fail to break the sequence of the serial numbers, how that number can be calculated by algorithm breakers?

58. Originally Posted by uday yadav
...how that number can be calculated by algorithm breakers?
It doesn't need to be calculated.
That number can only be one of 10 possible digits: 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
It can be brute-forced.

But I don't expect you to accept that.
Instead I expect something along the lines of "the lion is able to kill a bull but unable to kill a fly".

Why don't you publish your idea in a scientific journal?
What is it about the T&C's that prevents you from submitting your idea to a scientific journal?

59. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Yes. I must have ignored the criticism that was directed exactly towards merits of my idea. My critics said that my idea is not workable. The random number that comes out to be attached can be guessed by simple mathematical calculations. There are many simple algorithms ready to guess simple and single digit random number.

Actually the critics already knew that single digit appearing randomly will create certain problems so they were well prepared to deal with it. When I posted the idea they just appeared and killed my idea. It is already dead. But arrogantly I am not accepting the defeat.
This is true.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
Yes. I accept defeat of my idea.
This is not true.

60. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
Yes. I must have ignored the criticism that was directed exactly towards merits of my idea. My critics said that my idea is not workable. The random number that comes out to be attached can be guessed by simple mathematical calculations. There are many simple algorithms ready to guess simple and single digit random number.

Actually the critics already knew that single digit appearing randomly will create certain problems so they were well prepared to deal with it. When I posted the idea they just appeared and killed my idea. It is already dead. But arrogantly I am not accepting the defeat.
This is true.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
Yes. I accept defeat of my idea.
This is not true.

What is not true in that sentence?

You say -----No need for calculations. Brute force it.

Your brute force steals the codes or breaks the codes?

When you plainly explain how the brute force works on single digits and extracts the exact number, do you think I have any energy reservoir to deal with this.

Your criticism really defeated me. I did wrong I ignored it when you posted it for the first time.

61. Originally Posted by uday yadav
You say -----No need for calculations. Brute force it.

Your brute force steals the codes or breaks the codes?
It seems you haven't heard of a brute force attack.
Here's a brief description and a link:
In cryptography, a brute-force attack, or exhaustive key search, is a cryptanalytic attack that can, in theory, be used against any encrypted data[1] (except for data encrypted in an information-theoretically secure manner). Such an attack might be utilized when it is not possible to take advantage of other weaknesses in an encryption system (if any exist) that would make the task easier. It consists of systematically checking all possible keys or passwords until the correct one is found. In the worst case, this would involve traversing the entire search space.
Brute-force attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

62. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
You say -----No need for calculations. Brute force it.

Your brute force steals the codes or breaks the codes?
It seems you haven't heard of a brute force attack.
Here's a brief description and a link:
In cryptography, a brute-force attack, or exhaustive key search, is a cryptanalytic attack that can, in theory, be used against any encrypted data[1] (except for data encrypted in an information-theoretically secure manner). Such an attack might be utilized when it is not possible to take advantage of other weaknesses in an encryption system (if any exist) that would make the task easier. It consists of systematically checking all possible keys or passwords until the correct one is found. In the worst case, this would involve traversing the entire search space.
Brute-force attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have heard about the brute force. And hackers also. That is why this invention.

If the encrypted message is to be deciphered, the brute force might be utilized.

When it comes to finding out an algorithm applied for creation of random numbers, one can utilize such force and pick up that algorithm. That we may call as breaking the algorithm or codes. Once one knows the algorithm, he can guess the future codes.

If only there is an encryption or algorithm necessarily responsible to create encrypted data or codes, it can be attacked by brute force. Random single digits (0 to 9) are independent and complete identities. They can come randomly and repeatedly without any restrictions (algorithm).

Online stored data of single digit attached random codes might be accessed (stolen) by applying your brute force but this maneuver does not help in any way to access the forthcoming codes.

Brute force works on encryptions and algorithms.

Brute force is useless in their absence.

But i can be wrong as always, I am sure.

63. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Brute force works on encryptions and algorithms.
Brute force is useless in their absence.
And serial numbers are always created by algorithms.

64. Then what do you think did I attach single random digits to them for?

65. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Then what do you think did I attach single random digits to them for?
The serial number is created using an algorithm and the digit you want to add will require an algorithm.
Unless you are going to manually add each random digit, then you will require an algorithm.

66. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
Then what do you think did I attach single random digits to them for?
The serial number is created using an algorithm and the digit you want to add will require an algorithm.
Unless you are going to manually add each random digit, then you will require an algorithm.

Now I am sure you understood my idea.

I will need a computer program that electronically creates a single digit series. This program has unlimited options. No specific task, instruction or order. There is no precise list of precise steps. There is no critical order of computation for the functioning of this program except coming out with one single digit (random or repeated) each time to attach to the serial number or even unique number.

(Above para is mostly copy pasted, you may know.)

We will call this program as algorithm.

Are you sure once we call it as algorithm, brute force becomes applicable?

67. Originally Posted by uday yadav
I will need a computer program that electronically creates a single digit series. This program has unlimited options. No specific task, instruction or order. There is no precise list of precise steps. There is no critical order of computation for the functioning of this program except coming out with one single digit (random or repeated) each time to attach to the serial number or even unique number.
You need a computer program with "unlimited options. No specific task, instruction or order"?
You need a computer program with "no precise list of precise steps"?

That is not possible.

68. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I will need a computer program that electronically creates a single digit series. This program has unlimited options. No specific task, instruction or order. There is no precise list of precise steps. There is no critical order of computation for the functioning of this program except coming out with one single digit (random or repeated) each time to attach to the serial number or even unique number.
You need a computer program with "no precise list of precise steps"?

That is not possible.

YES. I think there is no connection between any two steps. Each step is complete in itself.

RedPanda, please don’t assume me to be capable of debating about computer science.

If you really know the single digit algorithm also will be cracked and future codes accessed, please say so.

I have already accepted my defeat for other reasons. Now I will accept that my claims also are wrong.

69. I should point out that you have completely invalidated your idea by writing about it.
Now that the idea of having a random number added to the end of any crackable serial number 1 has been shown publicly then, any time a counterfeiting operation encounters a group of serial numbers not amenable to ordinary replication methods, they simply "duplicate" what they can and add a random number (whether it's truly random or not is irrelevant - all it has to do is fall into the 0-9 range).
IOW by asking about the idea on a public forum you've made sure that no one will pay for the idea and it's now in the public domain as a technique for cracking any such code.

I now hand a you a revolver and point out that your foot is at the far end your leg: over to you...

1 Even supposing that with the random number it's uncrackable - something I doubt.

70. Originally Posted by uday yadav
YES. I think there is no connection between any two steps. Each step is complete in itself.
If you want a computer program with "unlimited options. No specific task, instruction or order" and has "no precise list of precise steps" then you are wanting something that is impossible.
A computer program is, by definition, a list of specific and precise instructions.

Originally Posted by uday yadav
If you really know the single digit algorithm also will be cracked and future codes accessed, please say so.
So.

71. Originally Posted by uday yadav
YES. I think there is no connection between any two steps. Each step is complete in itself.

Whut?

RedPanda, please don’t assume me to be capable of debating about computer science.
Given your statement here I doubt anyone would assume you capable of doing so.

72. That doesn't make any sense. There has to be SOME connection, or the code can't be decoded.

73. Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
That doesn't make any sense. There has to be SOME connection, or the code can't be decoded.
Good point well made.

Even though I expect the answer to be "Just remove the last digit".

74. Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
I should point out that you have completely invalidated your idea by writing about it.
Now that the idea of having a random number added to the end of any crackable serial number 1 has been shown publicly then, any time a counterfeiting operation encounters a group of serial numbers not amenable to ordinary replication methods, they simply "duplicate" what they can and add a random number (whether it's truly random or not is irrelevant - all it has to do is fall into the 0-9 range).
IOW by asking about the idea on a public forum you've made sure that no one will pay for the idea and it's now in the public domain as a technique for cracking any such code.

I now hand a you a revolver and point out that your foot is at the far end your leg: over to you...

1 Even supposing that with the random number it's uncrackable - something I doubt.

We give serial numbers or random codes to products for checking and cross checking.

If counterfeiter does not give exact random digits to his products, they will be identified as counterfeits during cross checking.

Then give me 10 + revolvers.

I also doubt if a random digit algorithm can be cracked.

75. Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
That doesn't make any sense. There has to be SOME connection, or the code can't be decoded.

When a digit is created and attached to the serial number, this is stored with manufacturer for cross check.

76. Originally Posted by uday yadav
If counterfeiter does not give exact random digits to his products

Could you explain what "exact random number" means please?

I also doubt if a random digit algorithm can be cracked.
Of course you do.

77. Originally Posted by uday yadav
I also doubt if a random digit algorithm can be cracked.
Here's a link to one way to crack a random digit algorithm:
Cracking Random Number Generators - Part 1 - all that jazz

78. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
That doesn't make any sense. There has to be SOME connection, or the code can't be decoded.
Good point well made.

Even though I expect the answer to be "Just remove the last digit".

After reading your posts I have become sure.

Single digit code algorithm can be easily made unbreakable.

79. Originally Posted by uday yadav
After reading your posts I have become sure.

But still wrong.

Single digit code algorithm can be easily made unbreakable.
So you didn't see RedPanda's post?

80. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Single digit code algorithm can be easily made unbreakable.
How?

81. Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
Originally Posted by uday yadav
If counterfeiter does not give exact random digits to his products

Could you explain what "exact random number" means please?

I also doubt if a random digit algorithm can be cracked.

Of course you do.

Exact random numbers means the same random codes used by the manufacturer.

82. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
I also doubt if a random digit algorithm can be cracked.
Here's a link to one way to crack a random digit algorithm:
Cracking Random Number Generators - Part 1 - all that jazz

I read it. I posted my idea and my query there. All that Jazz.

I have asked James Roper and others if such algorithm can be cracked.

I will wait for their answer.

83. Thank you RedPanda for All that Jazz. My idea is still in waiting with its owner.

Then I read much about TRNG, PRNG. And cracking efforts.

I was lucky that I came across the website of Professor David Wagner, Computer Science Division,
University of California, Berkeley.

I sent him my idea and have requested an answer in return. Let us see the result.

84. Originally Posted by PhDemon
Originally Posted by uday yadav

I sent him my idea and have requested an answer in return. Let us see the result.
I'm guessing laughter...

I thank you for the participation. Here is your quote.

"One of life's sorest tragedies is that the people who brim with confidence are always the wrong people. - Charlie Brooker."

If that’s the reason, Charlie Brooker may be wrong. His confidence (due to age or experience?) is overflowing from his sentence.

How can one say right thing without confidence?

Then critics brimming with confidence must be be wrong.

And what do you mean by,"I am guessing laughter..."...? Are you that confident?

85. Originally Posted by PhDemon
The quote refers to overconfident dolts who have no clue what they are on about spouting nonsense. It is an alternative expression of the findings of Dunning and Kreuger. The problem is these people "brimming with confidence" are wrong but are so ignorant they don't grasp this and spout guff confidently. Critics aren't necessarily wrong because they are confident, only if they are falsely over confident -- why is it that cranks can never grasp this point? I suggested the response may be laughter as as others have pointed out your posts are laughable.

Dolts, Spouting nonsense, Guff, Crank. For all these words I had to look into Synonyms. That is the power of one’s mother tongue. No brains needed.

My idea can be criticized in 2 parts.

One. As a pure idea. No one has given a thought to it. As an idea it is new. It has innovatively found a random or nonrandom digit to be attached to the serial number to make the whole number random and unique also. The idea does not disturb sequence of serial numbers as well can be utilized as a random code. But no one cares to write a word in praise of it.

Two. Its practicality in the computing program. This is the field I am ignorant of. Though I am confident that the program based on my idea will be unbreakable, I am seeking opinions of experts about it.
The members I am debating here are not computing experts but jack of all. They want me to be less confident about my idea. Why?

Because I don’t know computer science. Do they know? You also have kept away from it by your profile.

But though I am as ignorant as a lot of you, in spite of my ignorance I have made substantial contribution in the field of Computer Science. I have discovered Randomized Serialization.

Its computerization is the subject that is being debated by jacks of you all only to humiliate me.

1) PhDemon: MChem in chemistry, PhD in physical chemistry, MRSC
2) RedPanda: No mention of education or expertise.
3)Dywyddyr: Again no mention of education or expertise.
4) Babe: ?

I have contributed in the Computer Science. What 4 of you have done? NOTHING.

On this basis who are Dolts, Spouting nonsense, Guff, Cranks?

86. that is hilarious......I have not responded with words to this imbeciles posts since post #37 when I asked a question

My background is theatre arts with an emphasis on vocal music, musical and comedic theatre. Now you are filled in....and you are still spouting nonsense....

87. I haven't read the details of this thread, but I would point out that random serial numbers are already used. By choosing a large enough number, you can allow different manufacturers, for example, to generate serial numbers independently of one another with confidence that they will not cause a conflict.

Globally unique identifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

88. Originally Posted by uday yadav
RedPanda: No mention of education or expertise.
So, if I am actually a computer expert, how does that change your confidence in your idea?
I am expecting that it will make no difference at all.

In fact, I think you are just continuing to make up excuses for ignoring the valid criticisms of your idea.

89. Originally Posted by babe
that is hilarious......I have not responded with words to this imbeciles posts since post #37 when I asked a question

My background is theatre arts with an emphasis on vocal music, musical and comedic theatre. Now you are filled in....and you are still spouting nonsense....

I am sorry.

Please stay away from my spouting nonsense.

90. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
RedPanda: No mention of education or expertise.
So, if I am actually a computer expert, how does that change your confidence in your idea?
I am expecting that it will make no difference at all.

In fact, I think you are just continuing to make up excuses for ignoring the valid criticisms of your idea.
4 hours ago I posted my idea on “Computer Science”. I requested their opinion. Now it is not there.

91. Originally Posted by uday yadav
Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
RedPanda: No mention of education or expertise.
So, if I am actually a computer expert, how does that change your confidence in your idea?
I am expecting that it will make no difference at all.
In fact, I think you are just continuing to make up excuses for ignoring the valid criticisms of your idea.
4 hours ago I posted my idea on “Computer Science”. I requested their opinion. Now it is not there.
Please answer my question: if I am actually a computer expert, how does that change your confidence in your idea?

92. As a computer science expert (although you only have my word on that) I can't see the point.

If it's truly random (you get some radioactive material and a Geiger counter, for example) then the people that want to check if it's a valid serial number will have no way to recreate that number and can't tell a valid from an invalid serial number.

If it's only meant to look random, then it's basically a checksum digit.

If it's random, but you store all the valid serial numbers in some central database, then it could work, but then you could just use large random numbers instead of sequential numbers with a random digit tacked on since the database could store any additional information you might have gotten from the sequential serial numbers. It's also a lot of extra work and a potential security issue if the database is compromised or corrupted.

The point is to distinguish genuine products from copies, right? Even if you used a random extra digit, what's to stop the copiers from just copying a few known good serial numbers?

Also, who's checking these? Individual customers wouldn't know which numbers are good and which are bad. The manufacturers could probably tell it's a copy even without the serial numbers. If you have one large company shipping large volumes to another large company, you'd have to tell them how to check which serial numbers are good.

93. Originally Posted by MagiMaster
As a computer science expert (although you only have my word on that) I can't see the point.

If it's truly random (you get some radioactive material and a Geiger counter, for example) then the people that want to check if it's a valid serial number will have no way to recreate that number and can't tell a valid from an invalid serial number.

If it's only meant to look random, then it's basically a checksum digit.

If it's random, but you store all the valid serial numbers in some central database, then it could work, but then you could just use large random numbers instead of sequential numbers with a random digit tacked on since the database could store any additional information you might have gotten from the sequential serial numbers. It's also a lot of extra work and a potential security issue if the database is compromised or corrupted.

The point is to distinguish genuine products from copies, right? Even if you used a random extra digit, what's to stop the copiers from just copying a few known good serial numbers?

Also, who's checking these? Individual customers wouldn't know which numbers are good and which are bad. The manufacturers could probably tell it's a copy even without the serial numbers. If you have one large company shipping large volumes to another large company, you'd have to tell them how to check which serial numbers are good.

I hope this idea might be useful to the manufacturer for crosschecking his goods by wholesalers, excise personnel and vendors. They have scanners and smart phones to scan and verify the numbers. Through the supply chain wrong people also send their counterfeits as if they are genuine.

To safeguard his goods, manufacturer gives serial numbers to them and sends them to the market through supply chain. He stores these serial numbers with him for crosscheck by excise and others. But serial numbers are predictable and taking a clue one can know the whole series of serial numbers given to the manufacturer’s goods. So counterfeiter also gives same numbers to his fake goods and sends them in the supply chain. When the excise personnel scan his goods for serial codes, manufacturer’s database OKs the counterfeiter’s numbers.

To overcome this problem random numbers are brought in use. To create random numbers PRNG and TRNG are used. But computer based PRNG are more rumored than observed to be prone to attack and codes compromised. TRNG is supposed to be foolproof random number generator. TRNG is a centralized random codes creating system that provides random numbers to the manufacturers and others.

My idea can be an alternative to the TRNG. The digit/digits tagged to every serial number creates truly random number. These codes are totally unique and totally unpredictable. Once you credit this merit to my idea next step is to prepare the required software.

If the software for generating single random digits is constructed successfully and along with serial number generator it is provided to the manufacturers, they will produce their own random numbers as and when required. It will be commercially beneficial to all.

I see my idea as a localized alternative to the TRNG. It will be a solution in the possession of the persons who need them the most.

94. My simple question is, ‘Isn't pseudo/true random number a randomly picked up serial number?’

95. No.

96. If the answer (No) is true, then pseudo/random numbers are not part of any serialization. We do't find same numerical values in both.

97. Originally Posted by uday yadav
If the answer (No) is true, then pseudo/random numbers are not part of any serialization. We do't find same numerical values in both.
Please answer my question: if I am actually a computer expert, would that change your confidence in your idea?

98. @uday, I have no idea what you're trying to ask. I'm pretty sure you're using your own definitions for words like serialization so it's really hard to understand what you mean.

If you mean serialization as a sequential group of numbers, then no, random numbers (psuedo or not) have very little to do with that. If you mean serialization as assigning unique numbers to a series of objects, then random numbers can play a role in the process.

99. Uday: This sounds exaclty like your last "consumer protection" idea, and suffers the same flaws

100. Originally Posted by RedPanda
Originally Posted by uday yadav
If the answer (No) is true, then pseudo/random numbers are not part of any serialization. We do't find same numerical values in both.
Please answer my question: if I am actually a computer expert, would that change your confidence in your idea?

RedPanda, my Sir,

Please don’t ever expect me to lose my confidence in my idea. MagiMaster has rightly marked my limitations of expressions. Most of my work is mental maneuver. But once I complete it, I get caught in the web of expression and drought of words.

Now I am answering your question. Please don’t consider me to be a fool. I was always sure of it being at least equally comparable to random or sequential numbers. Since my first post I read much about the numbering systems and now I know my idea also will click.

The news---“The pharma industry (California Board of Pharmacy) is turning a corner with the decade-long effort to establish item-level serialization (ILS) and e-pedigree data transfer. More and more companies are paying attention to the January 2015 start date for California’s e-pedigree program. The GS1 organization has issued a new guidance for adopting its serialization and bar-coding standards. On roughly the same timetable as the California mandate, the European Union has adopted its own bundle of tracking serialized packages, coming out of the “Falsified Medicines Directive” originally issued in 2008, and now being reviewed by EU member states.”

Benefits of serialization.

One. Serialization will increase Patient safety.

Two. Pharmaceuticals companies and governments of countries worldwide believe that counterfeiting by organized crime can be reduced significantly by implementing product serialization.

Three. Serialization will provide visibility and full traceability within the supply chain.

Four. It will save loss of revenue, increase profit and retain brand equity.

At present CBoP -- California Board of Pharmacy has two options. It can go for serialization or opt for randomization of their medicines’ IDs.

Benefits of random numbers.

One. Much higher degree of protection is afforded by using random code generation.

Two. Highly effective in detecting counterfeits and deterring counterfeiters.

Three. Random codes force counterfeiters to guess numbers with impossible odds, meaning all authentications will fail.

Four. Except for visibility and full traceability, all the benefits of serialization.

So the California Board of Pharmacy must choose between these two. Either serialization/sequential numbers or random numbers. Unless CBoP doesn’t come across my invention of Randomized Serialization. It’s a third and most eligible option.

Randomized Serialization (RS) is structured so as to rip benefits of both systems. RS will give serial numbers to medicines and yet will act as random number owing to its tagged random digit. It has an extra option of hiding the tagged random digit until the medicine reaches in the hands of patient. Through the supply chain it will provide benefits of visibility and full traceability of serialization and also provide protected epedigree only by the end user.

Redpanda and MagiMaster,

Please try to understand me and my idea and help me.

The Business Case For Pharmaceutical Serialization - Life Science Leader
When serializing packages for e-pedigree, go random

101. Paleoichneum,

In the last idea, the random numbers were borrowed. And though you remember of finding flaws in it, I might have forgotten them. Its biggest flaw is lack of marketing. Yet it is being considered now by some FMCGs.

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