Thread: Complete stopage to counterfeit medicines

I am here to post my invention that stops counterfeit drugs market completely.

Without unique identity numbers we cannot lead a single day of our life. Telephone, mobile, electric bill, water charges, various passes, tickets, hotel bills, facebook, internet, you mention something and in one way or other, unique identity number is attached to it. Unique identity number has become inseparable from our lives.

My invention is SPLIT unique identity number. Unique identity number that is split in two parts and pasted on medicine strips and vials will stop the counterfeit drug market completely. (Actually it will protect almost every commodity).

HOW?

I am eager to post my invention here. Only that someone should ask me to.

You want to stop generic medicines? Why?

Originally Posted by uday yadav

My invention is SPLIT unique identity number. Unique identity number that is split in two parts and pasted on medicine strips and vials will stop the counterfeit drug market completely. (Actually it will protect almost every commodity).

And what is to stop people counterfeiting this id strip?

Originally Posted by KALSTER

You want to stop generic medicines? Why?

Counterfeit, not generic. This is a big problem in some countries. People suffer and even die because they get sold medicines that are at best harmless, and at worst may be positively harmful.

O ok. Send all caught counterfeiters to three mile island.

No no no. Generic medicines have their names. Any medicine having seperate and individual identity will be protected by my invention be it generic. My invention will protect liquors, cosmetics, medicines, watches, mobiles. almost every commodity that have its own identity and name in MARKET.
Generic medicines are very useful to society. They must be encouraged by more and more purchase.

Originally Posted by uday yadav

My invention will protect liquors, cosmetics, medicines, watches, mobiles. almost every commodity that have its own identity and name in MARKET.

I still don't see how. If people have the skills and technology to produce fake medicine, watches, etc. then why can't they produce fake id strips?

I'm guessing how this works. Yeah, for commodities that are not traded around (unlike paper currency) authentic serial-numbers will register and thereafter catch duplicates, as these commodities beep through store checkouts. That's no extra cost or effort to retailers and consumers. The scheme won't fly unless affected countries have modern point-of-sale equipment, and at least one trusted retailer to vet the commodities.

Anyway, I'm sure you've got better ideas on this. Tell us.

You have sharp minds. Give it a try until I succeed with attaching the attachments.
I give you a clue. It is not a strip. It is split strip.

Please someone tell me how to send attachments to this thread?

I have tried my best to upload the attachments.

I have tried my best to upload the attachments.

Yeah, right. Like I'm going to open a zip file from a unknown source.

Can't you just describe you idea here?

Ok Strange. It is strange. But the drawings in the attachment are best for guaranteed understanding.
I propose that every medicinal vial should have 20 digit unique identity number printed on them.
In the manufacturing unit, when the drug is filled in the vial and capped and sealed and ready for packaging, this is the time when my PPC [Product Protection Cover] will be fastened on the cap of vial and its surrounding area up to its shoulder. PPC is a transparent plastic paper of required size that is shaped as per the size and design of the vial.
Fastened PPC’s outer surface should have 18 out of 20 digits of vial’s unique number printed horizontally on the standing vial.
PPC has a small perpendicular strip made by making small punctures on PPC. This strip itself is a part of PPC and on the upper side, it is little longer than PPC but down the way is cut short. Strip’s extra upper length (4mm) is to be used as holder by which, strip is to be torn away from the PPC. It comes away easily as it is punctured on both sides and is cut in the midway down. All this description is clarified in the figures in the attachment. This strip has remaining last 2 digits out of 20 on the inner surface.
Drug manufacturing unit produces vials in hundreds of thousand daily. It puts caps on each of vials, seals each of them and forwards them for packaging.
Here on, the company will print 18 digits on the transparent plastic paper and 2 digits on the strip, for every vial. This means every medicinal vial is having different/unique 20 digit number. Company holds all the numbers in its computerized system for confirmation.
Now the vial has arrived in the market and is bought and taken at home. Every vial has unique number on its PPC. One consumer, who is careful about the quality of what he buys, would not directly consume the tablets inside until he makes sure that he has bought medicine.
He will look at the transparent plastic cover around the cap area. He already knows that that medicinal vial does have unique number printed on that plastic paper. He finds 18 numbers printed on the plastic paper. He knows that remaining 2 digits are hiding behind the strip. He takes hold of the strip holder and gently tears it away and he sees the place on the strip where the 2 digits are hidden under charcoal dry paste. He scratches the charcoal paste and finds remaining 2 digits. Now he has all the 20 digits to dial for and find the genuineness of that particular vial from its manufacturer directly.
He sends on his mobile the 20 digit number to the special number, reserved for quality confirmation only. This special number has to be global/national number. The medicinal vial manufacturing unit receives 20 digit number sent by our careful consumer. It confirms it and in a reply thanks the consumer for helping the company in preserving medicine quality.. Within seconds our careful consumer receives guarantee of that medicinal vial directly from where it was manufactured bottled and sealed.
Our second consumer is not careful. He is one of the 90% careless consumers. He has also bought the medicinal vial and has reached home. He is too lazy to confirm the genuineness of the vial. He takes out vial and looks at it. Vial is capped, sealed and then fastened with some transparent plastic. He is annoyed at the arrangement that keeps him away from medicine. Once he takes in mind to throw away the plastic paper [PPC], strip holder attracts his attention as comparatively easier instrument to get rid of PPC with least labor. Using thumb and index finger he easily catches the holder and tears the strip off. But only part of the strip comes away as it is cut midway. PPC does not come away. It is still sticking to the tube. Lower part of the punctured strip is still on, keeping PPC in place. He then tears that part of the strip and throws away the PPC. But while tearing through the partial strip he knowingly or unknowingly has let the 2 digit strip fall down from his thumb and index finger. By this act, he has misplaced places of 20 digits and has destroyed the uniqueness of the unique identity number.
He breaks the seal, uncorks the cap and consumes tablet. Thus company’s 20 digit unique number that was given to that particular vial is lost forever.

The idea is this---- Careful consumers use it. Careless consumers lose it. In no way unconfirmed number is available for counterfeiting.

Itna sannata kyun hai bhai?

Would each individual item (say each of the 25 3oz cat food cans in a case) have a unique number? IF so how large would your numbering system go?

I like it. I see that the cost is negligible and it's no bother to consumers either. Nice.

I suggest the 18 digits also printed as barcode, so they'll scan at purchase. This way customer and retailer immediately catch codes that have scanned before. Link to worldwide database is easy, as small businesses increasingly use internet-based point-of-sale because it's cheaper and easier. Like mobile phones, the technology makes sense regardless of a country's development.

How fast would that 18 digits be used? I cant find a source I truely trust but one figure I found on line suggested Walmart moving through 5475000000 items each year. That's just one store chain. and how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

How fast would that 18 digits be used? I cant find a source I truely trust but one figure I found on line suggested Walmart moving through 5475000000 items each year. That's just one store chain. and how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

On that basis, doesn't that mean that 18 digits would last Walmart about 20 million years? And it is actually 20 digits, so that would be 2 billion years. Or 2 billion stores for 1 year ...

If I'm following right, and may hazard answers:

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

Same way as UPC bar codes, however that is.

Originally Posted by Strange

it is actually 20 digits, so that would be 2 billion years...

Works better if the public 18 is itself unique, as this allows other parties to catch duplicates without breaking the seal. That's increased security with less burden on manufacturers. A unique 18-digit code would have only one correct 2-digit authenticator, so a counterfeiter would get it wrong 99 out of 100 tries.

This scheme doesn't work for used commodities being resold, so no reason numbers can't be recycled.

Originally Posted by Pong

Same way as UPC bar codes, however that is.

Presumably the same as things like PCI bus IDs: allocate a bit field for manufacturer ID, they can then allocate the remaining bits as they wish. You could have standards for certain bits representing the product type, etc.

Works better if the public 18 is itself unique, as this allows other parties to catch duplicates without breaking the seal.

Maybe I am missing something, but it isn't clear what the 2 "hidden" digits add. I mean, why hidden?

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

How fast would that 18 digits be used? I cant find a source I truely trust but one figure I found on line suggested Walmart moving through 5475000000 items each year. That's just one store chain. and how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

1000 is one thousand.
1000,000 is one million
1000,000,000 is one billion. Billion is 10 digit figue.
1000,000,000,000 = one trillion. Trillion is 13 digit figure.
What Walmart moves in no. of items is in 10 digit figure (5475000000)and can be easily accommodated in 11 or 12 digit figure as we will deal in 20 digit figure. Besides Walmart is not a manufacturer. This 20 digit number is to be pasted on the item when it is packed at manufacturing unit.
Again Walmart is not a single unit. As I know it’s a chain of hundreds of shops worldwide.
Coke-a-cola has hundreds of manufacturing units.
I explain to you as follows.
I assume 20 digit number to be product’s global unique number.
First 4 digits identify the price of the product. Price inclusion is important. Because if price is not mentioned on the PPC, adulterator will buy cheapest possible items from the market and will retrieve their unique numbers and will paste them on his high cost counterfeit products.
Next 7 digits identify the manufacturing unit. By this we will be able to identify 9,999,999 (10 million) manufacturing units uniquely worldwide.
Remaining 7+2 digits are for unique identity of each vial or bottle or item.
Suppose coca cola has 500 manufacturing units all over world, each of its unit will have separate 7 digit number. This manufacturing unit will print price in first 4 digits then will print its 7 digit unique number and then will print a 9 digit unique identity number on each bottle to complete our 20 digit number. Thus coca cola’s total production will be divided in 500 parts.
Wet Noses Dog biscuit (local dog treat company near Seattle) and clips manufacturing company in Zambia or Shri Lanka will be easily accommodated with 10 million 7 digit numbers reserved for manufacturing units. Cheapest item produced in millions and costliest items produced exclusively can be treated with same digital efficiency.

Originally Posted by Strange

Maybe I am missing something, but it isn't clear what the 2 "hidden" digits add. I mean, why hidden?

What you mention is already being used for confirmation of medicinal strips in some nations. They print the unique number on every medicine strip for confirmation. Observation is that only 10 out of 100 consumers dial to confirm the unique numbers on their medicinal strips for authentication. Let us base our logic on this fact.When a thousand strips are sold, only 1 hundred consumers SMS the unique numbers for confirmation on their mobile. Old couples may forgetfully call for same number twice on their mobiles. This happens because the unique number doesn’t vanish from their medicinal strips. These FORGETFUL REPETITIONS, we must take into consideration.So when someone SMSs one of the already confirmed unique number for confirmation, what way the answering centre should react?I think for every hundred confirmed numbers there will be 8 to 10 forgetful repetitions. Investigation of forgetful repetitions will be fruitless but necessary and will put enormous pressure on the system and hence this system also possibly will be used for counterfeiting.If the 2 digits are lost after tearing the strip, FORGETFUL REPETITIONS will be nil. Investigation agencies will have preserved their force to deal with counterfeit repititions.

Originally Posted by Pong

This scheme doesn't work for used commodities being resold, so no reason numbers can't be recycled.

Pong, I did not understand your point. How do used commodities come in this?

If it stops fake medicines I think it's a good idea.
I have no problem with generic medicines, but fake medicines can kill. Even in the UK it's a constant battle against fake products and fake medicines are taken very seriously indeed.
So best of luck with your idea, I hope it takes off.

Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz

If it stops fake medicines I think it's a good idea.
I have no problem with generic medicines, but fake medicines can kill. Even in the UK it's a constant battle against fake products and fake medicines are taken very seriously indeed.
So best of luck with your idea, I hope it takes off.

Thank you very much for your best wishes. But they will not suffice.
My idea really will stop trading of spurious, fake drugs provided it is brought to attention of governing authorities.
Regarding this idea, a single mail to the authority that keeps check on drugs quality, will definitely help. Take my request seriously and help in stopping this inhuman trade of fake drugs.

Duplicate spare parts dealers are eating up to 20% of genuine spare parts market. 2D barcodes and other ideas have failed to stop it. This is a worldwide picture.
Today, I am going to show you how duplication business can be stopped completely.
Let us consider a well established gear manufacturing company named ABC for example. This ABC Company produces millions of gears annually as spare part for automobiles and two wheelers. The company puts each of them in attractive and costly packets, prints unique 2D barcodes on them. Company’s name ABC is printed brightly and artistically on each packet.

At the same time duplicate gear manufacturers also produce thousands of duplicate gears in name of ABC. They produce same packets, same unique 2D barcodes, and when they send their gears in market no one can differentiate between genuine ABC and duplicate ABC gears.

When you or your mechanic buys the ABC gear, you are never sure about its genuineness.

Using my simple idea ABC Company can make sure that no duplicate gear enters the market in name of ABC and hence you are sure of genuine ABC gear.
I am eager to post my idea here. Only that someone should ask me to.

Are you trying to sell me something?

Why do I feel like a sweaty used car salesman just shook my hand?

spare parts

one of the problems i've encountered in tools made in china is the lack of spare parts
missing a 2cent spacer makes a $60 air sander or missing a $2.00 gear makes an $800 winch worthless, and the oft heard refrain is just throw it out and buy a new one
which offends my ecological soul, and my frugal nature

so my take
anytime anywhere you can get spare parts
do it

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

Are you trying to sell me something?

Why do I feel like a sweaty used car salesman just shook my hand?

I got that same vibe.

Ok...I'll bite...what's your great idea OP?

Sorry, I don't accept files from strangers. Might just want to post it on the forum.

Something weird about that zip file. No one else click it please.

Do you really intend to work against "duplicate spare parts," or against "counterfeit (spare) parts?" I have no problem with extra spare parts being manufactured, and don't understand why you would oppose them. Now, the problem of counterfeit parts is a real one, so if you have a method for dealing with that, then please go ahead and describe your idea. I will not click on your dodgy zip file. Just post a summary of your idea here. If you don't, I'll assume that you are just phishing.

I have quarantined post containing the zip file in question...MW

Just sent a letter to the FDA asking which agency to discuss the idea with. Will let you know what I hear back.

Originally Posted by MeteorWayne

I have quarantined post containing the zip file in question...MW

Sorry. I didn’t know if zip files creates this much havoc.
My file is in ppt. it is 235 kb. When I tried to upload it on your ‘The Science Forum thread’, it would just not accept it. So I compressed it in zip file. The forum mechanism accepted it that is the reason file was there.
At the same time I could upload my ppt file of 235 kb on ‘Scienceforums.net’ Speculations, by same name, ‘No more duplicate spare parts to your vehicles’.
I am ready to apologize if my ignorance of computing skills has cautioned you unnecessarily. I ask you to please find gear representation attachment on ‘Scienceforums.net Speculations’, by same name, ‘No more duplicate spare parts to your vehicles’.


No more duplicate spare parts for your vehicle. - Science Forums


I ask Meteorwayne to make my file harmless so that it can be replaced here.

Along with following description, presentation in attachment might be a help for total understanding.

Spare parts consumers are cheated on regular basis. To stop this duplication business henceforth ABC Company (or any manufacturing company) will encase every spare part with Product Protection Cover. It will print 18 digits on PPC and 2 digits on a piece of folded paper that will be placed inside the PPC along with spare part.

When this spare part reaches market and is sold, the retailer will tear the PPC and retrieve 2 digits from folded paper. He has 20 digit unique number of that particular spare part. 18 digits on PPC plus 2 digits retrieved from folded paper. Then he will send this unique number to ABC Company for confirmation. He will send the vehicle number for which the spare part is to be used and the mobile number of the consumer.
So information ABC Company will receive –
1. Spare part’s 20 digit unique number.
2. Vehicle’s registration number.
3. Consumer’s mobile number.

Now ABC Company will send back the Okay Message to the consumer’s mobile for the genuineness of that spare part.
This message will be treated as guarantee for that spare part from the time Okay Message is sent to the consumer. This message will remain with ABC Company and the consumer for the period of guarantee.
The spare parts which cannot be encased in PPC (mudguard, fender, bumper, shock absorber, silencer, chain cover etc) also can be safeguarded. 18 digits will be printed on plain surface of that part and 2 digits, on the paper that is folded with gum, will be attached with string on that spare part. Most of the spare parts have some kind of holes on them. The string with folded paper will be sewn and fastened through the hole. On its sale, string paper will be taken out by retailer and 20 digit number will be sent to ABC Company or concerned manufacturing company.

Well, I heard back from the FDA, but all they said was, "I have forwarded your email on to the correct office that handles these issues." So I guess it is a waiting game. I'll keep you posted. If it comes to explaining the concept, I can perhaps send the slideshow you provided, but not sure if that will be enough. I'll probably be directing them back here.

Sounds like a fairly normal email that would be sent when a very specific question is not sent to the right place in a large organization.

Are you talking "counterfeit" or just competitive parts manufacturing? In the USA at least, we have very well supported anti-monopoly laws...

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Sounds like a fairly normal email that would be sent when a very specific question is not sent to the right place in a large organization.

Oh, agreed. I mean only that they did not answer my question of "who do I talk to". They sent my message along, which is awesome, but they did not actually answer my question. Not a big deal though. We'll wait and see what comes of it.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Are you talking "counterfeit" or just competitive parts manufacturing? In the USA at least, we have very well supported anti-monopoly laws...

Thank you for help in clarifying my issue.
Suppose ABC Company manufactures gears of standard quality of its own. In market, ABC gears are always in demand for some reasons (advertise, quality, after service etc). The other gear company lags far behind of ABC Company in sales for its own reasons. So this company starts selling their gears by ABC gear name. This act is not permissible in any country. Actually established companies don’t do such thing.

My invention does not stop anyone from manufacturing products of their own. It only stops them from selling them in other manufacturer’s name.

We already have laws on the books that make counterfeiting illegal. People will find ways around it no matter what one tries to do. your invention is totally dependent on companies wanting to use it, and governments wanting to support it. I am guessing that many companies would rather use the lawyers they have on staff rather then trust to an untested system. Also if it is internet based, what is to stop it from being hacked and/or duplicated and counterfeited itself?

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

We already have laws on the books that make counterfeiting illegal. People will find ways around it no matter what one tries to do. your invention is totally dependent on companies wanting to use it, and governments wanting to support it. I am guessing that many companies would rather use the lawyers they have on staff rather then trust to an untested system. Also if it is internet based, what is to stop it from being hacked and/or duplicated and counterfeited itself?

Unique number confirmation will not need internet system. But will need mobile telecommunication.

Of 20 digit unique number, first 4 digits indicate price of the gear.
Next 7 digits indicate the manufacturing unit in which the gear is manufactured.
Remaining 9 digits are the unique number of that specific gear, awarded by that manufacturing unit.
When one buys a gear, he SMSs the 20 digits on his mobile to the nationally reserved telephone number like 911 or 100.
This reserved telephone number directs the 9 digit unique number of that product to the manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits of the 20 digit unique number. The manufacturing unit confirms the number and sends OK message to the consumer’s mobile.
Above system does not need internet that gets hacked. Nonetheless, in spite of incidents of hacking flourishing world business is becoming more and more internet based.
Paleoichneum;355981, I request you to attend the following clarification.
Suppose million gears are unique numbered in one company. When they are to be transported, they are put in cartons. The company’s computer that gives unique numbers to gears should also give serial numbers to the cartons.

Computer should register with itself, which carton contains which gears. Thus when the cartons with their serial numbers reach the wholesalers, the company’s computer has complete account of which wholesaler having which unique numbered gears. Thus the company becomes in-charge of every carton that holds his precious gears. Henceforth company will successfully safeguard the path of his gear’s journey until it reaches hands of genuine consumer.
Companies are spending enormous amounts to control the damage done by counterfeiters. 2D barcodes, monograms etc are become useless and hence only customary. When companies and governments come across my invention they will eagerly implement it, I am sure.

System needs mobile telecommunication. No internet is needed.
Of 20 digit unique number, first 4 digits indicate price of the gear.
Next 7 digits indicate the manufacturing unit in which the gear is manufactured.
Remaining 9 digits are the unique number of that specific gear, awarded by that manufacturing unit.
When one buys a gear, he SMSs the 20 digits on his mobile to the nationally reserved telephone number like 911 or 100.
This reserved telephone number directs the 9 digit unique number of that product to the manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits of the 20 digit unique number. The manufacturing unit confirms the number and sends OK message to the consumer’s mobile.
Above system does not need internet that gets hacked. Nonetheless, in spite of incidents of hacking flourishing world business is becoming more and more internet based.
Paleoichneum;355981, I request you to attend the following clarification.
Suppose million gears are unique numbered in one company. When they are to be transported, they are put in cartons. The company’s computer that gives unique numbers to gears should also give serial numbers to the cartons.

Computer should register with itself, which carton contains which gears. Thus when the cartons with their serial numbers reach the wholesalers, the company’s computer has complete account of which wholesaler having which unique numbered gears. Thus the company becomes in-charge of every carton that holds his precious gears. Henceforth company will successfully safeguard the path of his gear’s journey until it reaches hands of genuine consumer.
So no possibility of duplicate unique numbers. But in case, there are duplicate gears by same numbers they will be caught.
Companies are spending enormous amounts to control the damage done by counterfeiters. 2D barcodes, monograms etc are become useless and hence only customary. When companies and governments come across my invention they will eagerly implement it, I am sure.

Sounds like it will be internet based. Telecommunications will not be sophisticated enough to host the data traffic and information the system will require.

And as someone who works in retail, and has worked with manufacturing, neither end would want to deal with the system if all the responsibility is placed on them, if you want to implement your idea, you or whoever you seel the idea too will have to take on much more of data tracking and storage.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Sounds like it will be internet based. Telecommunications will not be sophisticated enough to host the data traffic and information the system will require.

And as someone who works in retail, and has worked with manufacturing, neither end would want to deal with the system if all the responsibility is placed on them, if you want to implement your idea, you or whoever you seel the idea too will have to take on much more of data tracking and storage.

All over the world mobile recharge cards are validated via telecommunication i.e. SMS.
In India, one can send 60000 i.e. sixty thousand SMSs in Rs. 66. Mobile companies encourage young generation to communicate via SMS. 55 rupeees makes a dollar. If data tracking and storage was problem, it doesn’t reflect in the offers the mobile companies are coming up with.
When consumer sends 20 digit number, what load he adds on system is 20 bits. The reply he gets is not necessarily more than that.
Mathematically 25 such queries and replies amounts to one KB.
25, 000 queries and replies use one MB.
25, 000,000 queries and replies use one GB.
For one billion SMSs and replies only 40 GB are required. If we assume double the usage, it will not be more than 100 GB. Nowadays personal computers have more capacity than the required usage for my invention’s storage and data trafficking.
Let me know if I have made some mistake in above calculations and information.
Regarding responsibility, there will not be any manual interference with the system. One or two GB storage of the company’s computer will suffice to hold unique numbers of its total production. There will be no manual reply.
You may know how mobile recharge cards are validated. Consumer buys the recharge card, scratches it SMSs the number printed on it to its mobile company. Company checks number and recharge his mobile with certain talk time.billions of cards are being validated day and night without fault. My invention is based on this system, so there should not be any problem.

Originally Posted by JoshuaL

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Sounds like a fairly normal email that would be sent when a very specific question is not sent to the right place in a large organization.

Oh, agreed. I mean only that they did not answer my question of "who do I talk to". They sent my message along, which is awesome, but they did not actually answer my question. Not a big deal though. We'll wait and see what comes of it.

JoshuaL
It is seldom done what you did. You spared your little time and someway contacted FDA Authority. You posted the conversation, however abrupt, on the forum. You showed readiness to wait for answer from FDA’s concerned people and then to do whatever is appropriate.

Your honest approach to your mind is delighting. You must be living very simple way i.e. no trace of conflict between heart and mind.
I admire you and thank you for the initiative off course.

Well...for one thing, I don't want my cell number passed around like a $2 whore. ABC might sell it to telemarketer. At least some people would think that. I'm not sure how it works in India, but here in the States, mechanics get their parts from vendors that get their parts directly from the manufacturer. All of the things you have suggested just add cost to the part, and add hassle to the mechanics and vendors.

edit: You might also want to consider using a different part in your example. A gear is just a hunk of steel that's been machined by a CNC machine. Whether it's made by ABC or faux-ABC., there's not going to be much difference in quality. You might want to consider a more complex part with moving parts...like an alternator or a transmission.

Thank you for your kind words, Uday. I am happy to help. Speaking of which, Chrisgorlitz had a good idea regarding this. Have you already applied for a patent? I don't what is required, but once you have a patent it will make it much easier to get your idea to the people who need to see it. Perhaps someone else here knows more about that process.

One other thing...the process you are describing is almost identical to the process required to activate a Windows installation by phone. (something I've done a million times) . It takes about 15 minutes. Mechanics time is very valuable...every minute that they aren't working on a car accruing billable labor hours is money out of their pocket. Most mechanics shops have a parts manager that is responsible for the supply of parts. You system would require that parts manager to be on the phone all day long, verifying each part. Those 15 minutes at a time add up quickly....that's lost labor cost.

We are assuming that the faux-ABC part is of significantly less quality than the OEM part. If that's the case, the shop manager would notice a significant increase in warranty repairs....and be on the phone to their parts vendor asking WTF. If it got bad enough, the mechanics shop would just change parts vendors.

I'm a computer technician. Much of what I do is the same as an auto mechanic, except they work on cars, I work on computers. If a customer brings their computer to me, and it has a bad hard drive, and I replace it with what I think is an OEM part....but it's not it's a fake...and it fails prematurely, they are going to bring their computer back to me, and I have to do a warranty repair for free...that's very costly. Most parts come with a warranty from the manufacturer, so I box up that part and send it back to the vendor or manufacturer for a replacement or credit. If the manufacturer is getting back fake parts...they are going know it, and take action against the vendor who sold the fake parts.

To give you an example....Sisco Systems is the leading brand for networking equiptment. Much of the internet runs on Sisco systems. A company I used to work for sold $250,000 worth of Sisco routers to a company, and when they recieved them, many didn't work properly....so they sent them back to us, and we sent them back to Sisco. Sisco informed us that they were not genuine Sisco parts, but counterfiets...so my company had to eat the cost to replace all of the routers with genuine Sisco products. Wesued the vendor that sold us the routers, and Sisco sued them too. They ended up going out of business.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

Well...for one thing, I don't want my cell number passed around like a $2 whore. ABC might sell it to telemarketer.

edit: You might also want to consider using a different part in your example. A gear is just a hunk of steel that's been machined by a CNC machine. Whether it's made by ABC or faux-ABC., there's not going to be much difference in quality. You might want to consider a more complex part with moving parts...like an alternator or a transmission.

If and when most manufacturers start their commodities to encase in PPC (Product Protection Cover), consumers like you who values their privacy above all, will buy extra mobile number exclusively for product confirmation purpose.

You are right about gear. I should have used some other item. Hereon let it be Sisco router by your advice. PPC will work on auto spares and computer spares with same effect.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

One other thing...the process you are describing is almost identical to the process required to activate a Windows installation by phone. (something I've done a million times) . It takes about 15 minutes. Mechanics time is very valuable...every minute that they aren't working on a car accruing billable labor hours is money out of their pocket. Most mechanics shops have a parts manager that is responsible for the supply of parts. You system would require that parts manager to be on the phone all day long, verifying each part. Those 15 minutes at a time add up quickly....that's lost labor cost.

To give you an example....Sisco Systems is the leading brand for networking equiptment. Much of the internet runs on Sisco systems. A company I used to work for sold $250,000 worth of Sisco routers to a company, and when they recieved them, many didn't work properly....so they sent them back to us, and we sent them back to Sisco. Sisco informed us that they were not genuine Sisco parts, but counterfiets...so my company had to eat the cost to replace all of the routers with genuine Sisco products. Wesued the vendor that sold us the routers, and Sisco sued them too. They ended up going out of business.

Cost per SMS is negligible in India. They offer 60000, sixty thousand SMS for 66 rupees (1 and quarter dollar). Telecommunication companies afford this because service is done with lightning speed. In America it must be faster.

Thank you very much for the Sisco router example. You as a witness make it unique. Supply chain is universal. Manufacturer sends product to distributer (wholesaler). He distributes to dealers (vendors). Vendors sell the product to consumers.
Now let us assume, Sisco Company has implemented my invention ‘SUNONPPC’.
Sisco encases every router with Product Protection Cover. The cover has 18 digits on PPC and 2 digits on a piece of folded paper that is placed inside the PPC along with router. Printing and fastening plastic paper on router is negligible cost when compared to what it did cost to the company you used to work for.
Thru supply chain, the routers reach vendor who wants to sell some counterfeit routers to your company. Let us see if he succeeds in selling your company counterfeit routers.
If he sells you original routers with PPC on, his counterfeits remain unsold.
He cannot sell you counterfeit routers without PPC. So if he takes away PPC from original and fastens them on counterfeit ones, he will be able to cheat your company by selling counterfeits but then he will be left with original Sisco routers without PPC. He cannot sell original Sisco routers by their real price because no one will buy Sisco routers without PPC at its real price. So he will have to sell original routers at counterfeit price.
So in my view, vendor does not have any option but to act honestly when the product is encased in PPC.
Please let me know if I have mistaken somewhere in the example.

Yes. I have applied for patent in India on 11 Jan. 2012. At present I am trying to connect to people who help and feel happy.

You seem intent on encasing everything in a new cover, consuming the earth's resaources (ASSUMING IT'S PLASTIC,OIL ) and creating yet another new waste stream. If every gear has it's own case, can you imagine the waste?

not to mention the problem the casing would create when applied to the interaction of different precision parts (the more likely to be counterfeited) do to the sudden change in part dimensions.

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

Well...for one thing, I don't want my cell number passed around like a $2 whore. ABC might sell it to telemarketer.

edit: You might also want to consider using a different part in your example. A gear is just a hunk of steel that's been machined by a CNC machine. Whether it's made by ABC or faux-ABC., there's not going to be much difference in quality. You might want to consider a more complex part with moving parts...like an alternator or a transmission.

If and when most manufacturers start their commodities to encase in PPC (Product Protection Cover), consumers like you who values their privacy above all, will buy extra mobile number exclusively for product confirmation purpose.

You are right about gear. I should have used some other item. Hereon let it be Sisco router by your advice. PPC will work on auto spares and computer spares with same effect.

Nobody...and I mean nobody is going to buy a new cell number just for the purpose of verifying a new part, I know I fucking wouldn't. You need to consider the people that are using your system in it's design. Parts already come in "PPC's" it's called packaging...parts already have unique numbers assigned to them, they are called serial numbers. If I buy a Sisco router, I can already pick up the phone, and give them the serial number, and they will tell me if it's genuine or not. Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like to me that your trying to change an entire industry that you don't have any practical experience in or knowledge of.

Originally Posted by MeteorWayne

You seem intent on encasing everything in a new cover, consuming the earth's resaources (ASSUMING IT'S PLASTIC,OIL ) and creating yet another new waste stream. If every gear has it's own case, can you imagine the waste?

Negligible compared to metal in gear. Counterfeit gears consume more resources than original ones. A 50 micron plastic cover replacing all other security measures definitely will preserve resources till now being wasted on them.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

not to mention the problem the casing would create when applied to the interaction of different precision parts (the more likely to be counterfeited) do to the sudden change in part dimensions.

I am sorry but I didn't understand your point.

Your system seems to just be a duplication of security measures that are already in place, with several added layers of processes and a large chunk more time and cost involved. Things like Video game systems already have unique numbers that you can call to verify they are genuine. Things line gears are NOT even copyrightable so attempting to stifle competition with this device would very quickly get you in trouble with the law.


BTW why do we STILL have two threads on the same thing???

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

not to mention the problem the casing would create when applied to the interaction of different precision parts (the more likely to be counterfeited) do to the sudden change in part dimensions.

I am sorry but I didn't understand your point.

Would the packaging be removable or permanent?

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

Nobody...and I mean nobody is going to buy a new cell number just for the purpose of verifying a new part, I know I fucking wouldn't. You need to consider the people that are using your system in it's design. Parts already come in "PPC's" it's called packaging...parts already have unique numbers assigned to them, they are called serial numbers. If I buy a Sisco router, I can already pick up the phone, and give them the serial number, and they will tell me if it's genuine or not. Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like to me that your trying to change an entire industry that you don't have any practical experience in or knowledge of.

You are right. Sisco routers serial numbers on their packages would help in checking their genuineness. The problem lies with unconfirmed serial numbers. Only 10, 20 or at the most 50% consumers will check the serial numbers. Counterfeit vendor will make sure to know at least 20% to 30% consumers who have not checked serial numbers of their Sisco routers.

Now he has 20% serial numbers to paste on his counterfeits. He will sell his counterfeit routers applying those unchecked serial numbers on counterfeit router packaging.
My invention is not for confirmation of router’s genuineness. For that there are serial numbers, alphanumerical numbers, unique numbers and many other forms of security.
My invention deals with the numbers which remain unchecked after product’s purchase. My invention SUNONPPC, destroys unchecked numbers.
For changing an entire industry, with no practical experience, ignorant and uncouth man that I am (at 59 years) don’t dare see that way.

The people that would want your product, are the people that would already be checking the serial number of the product they bought. The majority of people will not want the extra time costs and the extra monetary costs. Plus its not internet based, so for most of the first world countries its already considered outdated tech.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Would the packaging be removable or permanent?

Merely thin plastic paper cover that can be torn with little force. A temporary cover until the product is sold.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

BTW why do we STILL have two threads on the same thing???

One is for bottles and vials because of their peculiar shape. this one is for products of variable shapes. I am very sincere about both threads.

My system is for destroying unchecked product numbers.

How would counterfeiters get a hold of the un-checked serials? Only certain brands that have a high respectablity/desirablity get counterfieted....like Sisco, Nike, Polo, Rolex, etc. These manufacturers already take measures to ensure the legitimacy of their products. Most serials numbers are generated using a specific code, which is secret to the company. If a fake serial doesn't match the code...they know it's counterfiet.
I'm still not understand how your "PPC" protects the product from counterfieting...and how it's any different than the packaging products already come in.

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

BTW why do we STILL have two threads on the same thing???

One is for bottles and vials because of their peculiar shape. this one is for products of variable shapes. I am very sincere about both threads.

My system is for destroying unchecked product numbers.

Serial numbers are used for more than just counterfeiting protection. They tell when and where the product was produced....and help with recalls when a product is found to have a bad part. (like Dell computers GX-270's...they sold millions of them that had bad capacitors on the motherboard, and had to issue a recall for all the units made during a specific batch)

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

BTW why do we STILL have two threads on the same thing???

One is for bottles and vials because of their peculiar shape. this one is for products of variable shapes. I am very sincere about both threads.

My system is for destroying unchecked product numbers.

They are still both about the same protection system that you are proposing, so are on the same thing. I would suggest they are merged.

One other method that manufacturers use to protect their products is holographic stickers:


You see them everywhere...on software, dvd movies, and Visa cards. Apparently, it's next to impossible for forgers to reproduce them. If you don't see the official sticker, you know it fake.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

The people that would want your product, are the people that would already be checking the serial number of the product they bought. The majority of people will not want the extra time costs and the extra monetary costs. Plus its not internet based, so for most of the first world countries its already considered outdated tech.

That is the reason, people of first world countries need it the most. Only 10% people need to confirm their product number. My invention does not need remaining 90% consumers waste their valued time on checking numbers. With minimal extra cost, it destroys the numbers which they have brought with their products.
SUNONPPC is less about number confirmation than number destruction.
I pray to you, please try to understand what I am trying to say.

Originally Posted by uday yadav

I pray to you......

You can pray to me if you want. I'm no god, but I do demand sacrifices of beer and BBQ spare ribs.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

BTW why do we STILL have two threads on the same thing???

One is for bottles and vials because of their peculiar shape. this one is for products of variable shapes. I am very sincere about both threads.

My system is for destroying unchecked product numbers.

They are still both about the same protection system that you are proposing, so are on the same thing. I would suggest they are merged.

I hope you have seen both presentations. Bottle or vial has neck so PPC can be fastened on its neck upto its shoulders. 18 + 2 digits reside on same PPC. 18 digits on PPC while 2 digits on the strip.
You cannot apply same method to other shaped products. The gear, you have to cover it completely by PPC so you have to put 2 digits inside the PPC. This is the difference for which I used two threads here. With single thread it is impossible to convey what already has become difficult to understand.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

How would counterfeiters get a hold of the un-checked serials? Only certain brands that have a high respectablity/desirablity get counterfieted....like Sisco, Nike, Polo, Rolex, etc. These manufacturers already take measures to ensure the legitimacy of their products. Most serials numbers are generated using a specific code, which is secret to the company. If a fake serial doesn't match the code...they know it's counterfiet.
I'm still not understand how your "PPC" protects the product from counterfieting...and how it's any different than the packaging products already come in.

Please go thru these.

Counterfeit Version of Avastin in U.S. Distribution

The 10 Most Counterfeited Products Sold in America - DailyFinance

uday yadav, we have merged your two threads since, as I have been alerted, they are about the same technology you are proposing. No need to have two threads for that.

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

The people that would want your product, are the people that would already be checking the serial number of the product they bought. The majority of people will not want the extra time costs and the extra monetary costs. Plus its not internet based, so for most of the first world countries its already considered outdated tech.

That is the reason, people of first world countries need it the most. Only 10% people need to confirm their product number. My invention does not need remaining 90% consumers waste their valued time on checking numbers. With minimal extra cost, it destroys the numbers which they have brought with their products.
SUNONPPC is less about number confirmation than number destruction.
I pray to you, please try to understand what I am trying to say.

Your comment makes no sense in terms of what I wrote, to be honest.

You keep using variations of the term "number destruction", trying to make it seem like your product will eliminate serial numbers of products, it wont. It just seems to add an extra layer of bureaucracy to the product, increasing its cost in both time and money, while not actually preventing counterfeiting. The people that would willingly use your system, are the people that are already vigilant and checking with the established systems. Counterfeiting does NOT, I repeat, NOT rely on reusing serial numbers, it mostly just creates fake ones that look real, but have no relation to the actual serial number system of the product being forged.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

Originally Posted by uday yadav

I pray to you......

You can pray to me if you want. I'm no god, but I do demand sacrifices of beer and BBQ spare ribs.

I did not pray to you. You use abusive language.
I prayed to Paleoichneum because for some reason Paleoichneum is not able to understand my point or I miss something.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Originally Posted by uday yadav

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

The people that would want your product, are the people that would already be checking the serial number of the product they bought. The majority of people will not want the extra time costs and the extra monetary costs. Plus its not internet based, so for most of the first world countries its already considered outdated tech.

That is the reason, people of first world countries need it the most. Only 10% people need to confirm their product number. My invention does not need remaining 90% consumers waste their valued time on checking numbers. With minimal extra cost, it destroys the numbers which they have brought with their products.
SUNONPPC is less about number confirmation than number destruction.
I pray to you, please try to understand what I am trying to say.

Your comment makes no sense in terms of what I wrote, to be honest.

You keep using variations of the term "number destruction", trying to make it seem like your product will eliminate serial numbers of products, it wont. It just seems to add an extra layer of bureaucracy to the product, increasing its cost in both time and money, while not actually preventing counterfeiting. The people that would willingly use your system, are the people that are already vigilant and checking with the established systems. Counterfeiting does NOT, I repeat, NOT rely on reusing serial numbers, it mostly just creates fake ones that look real, but have no relation to the actual serial number system of the product being forged.

Either you have totally misunderstood my concept of Split Unique Number on PPC
--------------------------------------OR----------------------------------------------
You are not honest critique. But I know it is not true.

For you, I am reposting my idea and presentation.
Please try to grasp the subtle difference between existing unique numbers and my split unique numbers. Once you know the purpose behind splitting the unique number in two, you will accept its role in safeguarding genuine products.


I propose that every medicinal vial should have 20 digit unique identity number printed on them.
In the manufacturing unit, when the drug is filled in the vial and capped and sealed and ready for packaging, this is the time when my PPC [Product Protection Cover] will be fastened on the cap of vial and its surrounding area up to its shoulder. PPC is a transparent plastic paper of required size that is shaped as per the size and design of the vial.
Fastened PPC’s outer surface should have 18 out of 20 digits of vial’s unique number printed horizontally on the standing vial.
PPC has a small perpendicular strip made by making small punctures on PPC. This strip itself is a part of PPC and on the upper side, it is little longer than PPC but down the way is cut short. Strip’s extra upper length (4mm) is to be used as holder by which, strip is to be torn away from the PPC. It comes away easily as it is punctured on both sides and is cut in the midway down. All this description is clarified in the figures in the attachment. This strip has remaining last 2 digits out of 20 on the inner surface.
Drug manufacturing unit produces vials in hundreds of thousand daily. It puts caps on each of vials, seals each of them and forwards them for packaging.
Here on, the company will print 18 digits on the transparent plastic paper and 2 digits on the strip, for every vial. This means every medicinal vial is having different/unique 20 digit number. Company holds all the numbers in its computerized system for confirmation.
Now the vial has arrived in the market and is bought and taken at home. Every vial has unique number on its PPC. One consumer, who is careful about the quality of what he buys, would not directly consume the tablets inside until he makes sure that he has bought medicine.
He will look at the transparent plastic cover around the cap area. He already knows that that medicinal vial does have unique number printed on that plastic paper. He finds 18 numbers printed on the plastic paper. He knows that remaining 2 digits are hiding behind the strip. He takes hold of the strip holder and gently tears it away and he sees the place on the strip where the 2 digits are hidden under charcoal dry paste. He scratches the charcoal paste and finds remaining 2 digits. Now he has all the 20 digits to dial for and find the genuineness of that particular vial from its manufacturer directly.
He sends on his mobile the 20 digit number to the special number, reserved for quality confirmation only. This special number has to be global/national number. The medicinal vial manufacturing unit receives 20 digit number sent by our careful consumer. It confirms it and in a reply thanks the consumer for helping the company in preserving medicine quality.. Within seconds our careful consumer receives guarantee of that medicinal vial directly from where it was manufactured bottled and sealed.
Our second consumer is not careful. He is one of the 90% careless consumers. He has also bought the medicinal vial and has reached home. He is too lazy to confirm the genuineness of the vial. He takes out vial and looks at it. Vial is capped, sealed and then fastened with some transparent plastic. He is annoyed at the arrangement that keeps him away from medicine. Once he takes in mind to throw away the plastic paper [PPC], strip holder attracts his attention as comparatively easier instrument to get rid of PPC with least labor. Using thumb and index finger he easily catches the holder and tears the strip off. But only part of the strip comes away as it is cut midway. PPC does not come away. It is still sticking to the tube. Lower part of the punctured strip is still on, keeping PPC in place. He then tears that part of the strip and throws away the PPC. But while tearing through the partial strip he knowingly or unknowingly has let the 2 digit strip fall down from his thumb and index finger. By this act, he has misplaced places of 20 digits and has destroyed the uniqueness of the unique identity number.
He breaks the seal, uncorks the cap and consumes tablet. Thus company’s 20 digit unique number that was given to that particular vial is lost forever.

The idea is this---- Careful consumers use it. Careless consumers lose it. In no way unconfirmed number is available for counterfeiting.

Please see the presentation to know the negligible cost of PPC.
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\Admin\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.gif[/IMG] Protection from fake medicines1.zip‎ (91.9 KB, 13 views)

Your idea still sounds the same as companies own serial number tracking systems. These are unique numbers that are given by the company and are not used over and over. ANyone can already track if something they bought is genuine or counterfeit just by contacting the company and inquiring, all without the extra cost in time and money your system would require. Plus they can do it over the internet, rather then using outdated telecommunications and giving away their personal phone number.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

How would counterfeiters get a hold of the un-checked serials? Only certain brands that have a high respectablity/desirablity get counterfieted....like Sisco, Nike, Polo, Rolex, etc. These manufacturers already take measures to ensure the legitimacy of their products. Most serials numbers are generated using a specific code, which is secret to the company. If a fake serial doesn't match the code...they know it's counterfiet.
I'm still not understand how your "PPC" protects the product from counterfieting...and how it's any different than the packaging products already come in.

YES. Once your serial numbers are printed on product packages for checking, it will be difficult to find out unchecked serial numbers. So counterfeiters will have to shut their shops. If this happens, serial numbers will suffice for protection of genuine products.

Are you sure counterfeiters have no other option? Mechanics, garage owners, highway repair stations. If they honestly check components’ serial numbers then certainly counterfeiters will have to shut their shop. But will they be honest and check the serial numbers of every component before using. With serial numbers you have to depend on the honesty of mechanics and garage owners. As long as they don’t provide unchecked numbers to counterfeiters, serial numbers are OK.
But technology dependent on human loyalty and honesty will collapse in a month.

Originally Posted by KALSTER

uday yadav, we have merged your two threads since, as I have been alerted, they are about the same technology you are proposing. No need to have two threads for that.

KALSTER, administrator. I hope you are made an administrator not because of your speed posting in thousands, but for your lightning speed of decision making. The promptness you showed at merging my threads is uncommon.

You received an alert. You understood the gravity of it. You learned all that was to be learnt from my two threads.
Bottles, medicinal strips, gears such products come in various size and shapes. Though my main invention is Split Unique Number, to apply it on all product, I have invented two different applications which I had posted on two threads. I am sure you are sure of all those little things inventors like us try to make big of when you removed one of my thread.

One invention : Two application : One thread = A prompt decision.

I don't know about other products, but the idea has merit for medicine. The way this is different form a serial number is that each bottle would have a unique number, just like when you buy software (as someone already pointed out), but additionally you can not see the entirety of the unique number from the outside. Although, as someone else already pointed out, counterfeits need not use a genuine serial number. Might be enough to just look like a genuine number. HOWEVER, when it comes to counterfeit drugs, if there is a database you can confirm online or via phone, you will potentially be saving a life by taking a moment to verify the serial number. With the system Uday describes, you are guaranteed that number is in fact unique, as part of the number is hidden inside the package. (So even if the counterfeiter goes to the lengths of mimicking this design and puts part of the serial number in the inside, there is little chance that it will match a real number, which will be verified online/phone.) Counterfeit drugs are problem in the US and UK, but they are a much much bigger problem in other countries, where it may be harder to find and capture the perpetrator. Not sure if someone already shared the FDA page on the subject.

EDIT: I see this kinda of thing as being used more by the doctor/clinic/pharmacy to do verification rather than the individual, but both would be good.

Originally Posted by JoshuaL

I don't know about other products, but the idea has merit for medicine. The way this is different form a serial number is that each bottle would have a unique number, just like when you buy software (as someone already pointed out), but additionally you can not see the entirety of the unique number from the outside. Although, as someone else already pointed out, counterfeits need not use a genuine serial number. Might be enough to just look like a genuine number. HOWEVER, when it comes to counterfeit drugs, if there is a database you can confirm online or via phone, you will potentially be saving a life by taking a moment to verify the serial number. With the system Uday describes, you are guaranteed that number is in fact unique, as part of the number is hidden inside the package. (So even if the counterfeiter goes to the lengths of mimicking this design and puts part of the serial number in the inside, there is little chance that it will match a real number, which will be verified online/phone.) Counterfeit drugs are problem in the US and UK, but they are a much much bigger problem in other countries, where it may be harder to find and capture the perpetrator. Not sure if someone already shared the FDA page on the subject.

EDIT: I see this kinda of thing as being used more by the doctor/clinic/pharmacy to do verification rather than the individual, but both would be good.

JoshuaL,

Ek luhar ki, sau sunar ki.
One stroke of blacksmith is more effective than a hundred of goldsmith.
Thank you for the post.
--------------------------

Nonetheless, the last debate has succeeded in creating some doubt about the effectiveness of my invention or say idea. There is only one reason why my idea will succeed where other numbering systems will fail but it will need some explaining. So I request to please bear with me the lengthy explanation.

In market, most products come in sealed containers. Consumer cannot imagine a product without seal, when he buys it. Seal has its dignity in eyes of consumer that is evolved during hundreds of years. Seal establishes exclusive proprietorship of the buyer on the product contained inside. Seal along with attractive packaging boasts of credentials of the product inside. The more attractive, exclusive and artistic becomes the packaging and seal, the more dignified, genuine and better (than others) appears the product to the consumer.

Though seal and packaging are also meant to act as hurdles, their replicas, counterfeiters prepare so real that these counterfeit seal and packaging also plays the same magic on consumer. Counterfeit products among genuine ones, look same. And then counterfeits are not many. If one is insistent on finding a counterfeit, he will have to check 5 to 7 containers to find a single one. Then it is a probability and not surety. Again being ignorant of quality norms consumer is afraid to raise voice against what he only suspects as counterfeit product. Recalling a product by manufacturer is an exception and not a rule as millions of products manufactured in large quantities are liable to undergo quality variants. Thus our consumer is left with no more choice than to go along and get accustomed to it. Many consumers gamble their loyalty to a certain vendor in hope of genuine products.

Serial or unique number on the product is claimed as one more hurdle that will eat into counterfeiter’s profit and will make it less lucrative. It won’t stop his business but will need more precision. Counterfeiting is not possible without someone from supply chain helping it. So let us assume that one of the wholesalers is a counterfeiter.

When the numbered products arrive in his warehouse, he will also have to number his counterfeit products. But if he applies same numbers to his counterfeits, some consumers are entitled to get few repeated numbers while confirmation. Thus manufacturer will know the counterfeiter as these numbers will be pointing their fingers towards his warehouse.
Because when manufacturer will give random unique numbers to product containers, he will also make sure that the company’s computer also gives serial numbers to the boxes/cartons which contain product’s numbered containers.
Computer will register with itself, which box contains which containers. Thus when the boxes with their serial numbers reach the wholesalers, the company’s computer will have complete account of which wholesaler having which unique containers. Thus the manufacturer becomes in-charge of every container that holds his precious product. Henceforth he will be supposed to successfully safeguard the path of his product’s journey until it reaches hands of genuine consumer.

But does he succeed in it?

NO.

It is observed that only 10% consumers check product’s number. So 90% unchecked numbers remain intact on the empty containers.

Our counterfeiter wholesaler will not use the numbers arrived in his warehouse but will try to bribe employees of other wholesalers to get their numbers. If he didn’t get numbers from them, he will try to get them from rag pickers. Rag pickers are everywhere. Wherever there are consumers, there are rag pickers. Rag pickers will suddenly have new lucrative opportunity of collecting empty product containers with numbers. Rag pickers will be supplying more than enough numbers to all counterfeiters. Our wholesaler counterfeiter is at liberty to choose from rag pickers only numbers those are not related to numbers in his warehouse. He will paste those numbers on his counterfeits. Only 1 of his 10 counterfeits will have repeated number but only 1 from every 100 counterfeits will be repeated for confirmation. (Magic of 10% number checking).

His counterfeits will be absorbed in supply chain. In market, when sold, the repeated numbers of few counterfeits will point their fingers towards some other wholesalers. Honest vendors will be under pressure to complain to the FDA to save them from false allegation of counterfeiting and to save their hard achieved reputation. So these wholesalers, supported by others including our wholesaler counterfeiter, will unite against this injustice and will abuse the incompetent numbering system which then would be scrapped or become ornamental as seal and packaging. There will be no evidence against our counterfeiter.

My invention of SUNONPPC is the final solution.

Split Unique Number On Product Protection Cover.

When the products arrive with PPC in our counterfeiter wholesaler’s warehouse, he is at liberty to tear the PPC and acquire remaining 2 digits of 20 digit unique number. He can replace the torn PPC with new one. He can use these numbers on his counterfeits but then repeated numbers in market will point their fingers to his warehouse only. He will have to close his business of counterfeiting as there won’t be complete numbers on the empty containers of rag pickers either.

I am eager to hear your opinions.

What percentage of counterfeit products are you thinking are in circulation right now in the US or Canada?

The World Health Organization estimates 10% medications worldwide are fake with poorer counties seeing rates as high as 25%. My guess is that puts US/Canada between 1-3%. These are old numbers though, and I'd guess they've increased over the last 10 years. WHO | Substandard and counterfeit medicines

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

What percentage of counterfeit products are you thinking are in circulation right now in the US or Canada?

In 2011, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network said "The lack of resources combined with outdated laws makes Canada a lucrative, low risk target for international and domestic IP criminals."
If you ask me about the counterfeit % in USA or Canada, I will only speculate going thru many of following sites.

Sennheiser USA - Counterfeit Alert

Above website shows futility of manufacturer’s actions against counterfeiters. A security label, the company boasts about is a piece of paper on which 2D barcodes are printed (A lot of various parallel lines to make them unique) and is pasted on the product. Actually these lines represent a name of website. When you catch 2D barcode’s image on your mobile, the company’s website is viewed on your screen explaining their fight against counterfeiters.

Counterfeiting Costs US Businesses $200 Billion Annually | IPWatchdog.com | Patents & Patent Law

This site tries to prove that in USA, international trade in counterfeit and pirated goods could well have accounted for up to US$ 200 billion in 2005. This $200 billion figure does not include counterfeit and pirated products that are produced and consumed domestically, nor does it include the significant volume of pirated digital products distributed via the Internet.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/columnist/odonnell/story/2012-06-01/confident-consumer-jayne-odonnell/55406774/1

From fake versions of the drugs Adderall and Avastin to phony designer watches and wedding dresses, counterfeiting is rising fast and is increasingly becoming a safety concern.

Originally Posted by JoshuaL

The World Health Organization estimates 10% medications worldwide are fake with poorer counties seeing rates as high as 25%. My guess is that puts US/Canada between 1-3%. These are old numbers though, and I'd guess they've increased over the last 10 years. WHO | Substandard and counterfeit medicines

JoshuaL,
USA, UK and other developed countries export quality goods to India including branded liquors.
In India it is said, ‘More scotch is consumed in New Delhi alone, than produced in Scotland.’ Scotch consumers in India are aware of this yet their status doesn’t allow to go for IMFL i.e. Indian Made Foreign Liquor. May be some of them get the scotch at lower prices. But rich men, abundant in India, go for available scotch for real price. Once plentiful scotch becomes unavailable, sale of genuine scotch and IMFL will increase.

Our wholesaler counterfeiter has one more option.

He may print remaining 9 of 20 digits of product container as he wishes and send them in market. But then unconfirmed numbers will be counterfeit numbers and they will be tenfold.

Suppose he sends 100 containers with imaginary unique numbers, as a rule of 10% checking, 10 numbers will be checked for confirmation and all of them would be found counterfeited not repeated.

This will be tenfold than the numbers gotten from rag picker. Among every 10 items one will be caught as counterfeit. No vendor, however skilled in cheating his consumers will get away with this proportion of exposed and confirmed counterfeits.

Originally Posted by Pong

This scheme doesn't work for used commodities being resold, so no reason numbers can't be recycled.

You forgot to answer my question. I repeat it here.
I did not understand your point. How do used commodities come in this?

JoshuaL,

SUNONPPC has merit. My head has stopped working on this idea anymore. Unless tried, we may not know if it has any drawback. We may or may not, I am not sure.

I desire to try this idea on the liquors that USA and UK export to India.

In India servants and wives of rich men sell empty bottles of foreign liquors to the rag pickers at very high prices. One imported bottle, full of ‘foreign liquor’, is consumed and refilled several times.

I sent my idea with good presentation to one or two IMFL producers but I didn’t get any response. IMFL means Indian Made Foreign Liquor. By nature I am competent but shy at the same time. When it comes to man to man conversation and convincing, I lose my point miserably so I try not to meet anyone personally.

If the idea is implemented, in India, most consumers will check the number of the bottle before breaking seal. Percentage of duplicate foreign liquors will drastically come down.

JoshuaL, will you help me in this? You may know, if the idea succeeds, it will create lot and lot of money. With you and Chrisgorlitz (if Chrisgorlitz wishes) to my side this task will be easier. Easier than convincing FDA to use the idea on medicines free of charge.

Uday-- I've sent a letter the Scotch Whiskey Association in UK briefly describing the scenario and asking if they are interested (or rather, if they think specific business owners would be interested). Still no response from the FDA. I'll keep you posted.

PPC for medicinal strips.

We can put medicine strips inside PPC to protect them from fake ones.

sun A.ppt (582.5K)

sun C.ppt (238K)

Uday, please stop posting the same thing just to bump your threads up.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

Uday, please stop posting the same thing just to bump your threads up.

You are mistaking them for same thing.

I request you to try to apply the PPC meant for vial as it is on medicinal strip. It took me lot of thinking to imagine the PPC for strips.

It is the lack of interest of receding number of curious readers that no one challenged the insufficiency of vial PPC when tried on strips as it is.

Is there really a problem?

I'm reminded of my time in the military where I'd get constant barrages of "new ideas," that started with a false premise that something needed fix'in, and of course there was a ready solution at hand if only we worked up a big contract on the tax payers dime.

Do you have an objective research that shows the problems you think this would solve are significant? Though anecdotal, I'm pretty sure I've never had a fake med, or purchased a fake car part. About the closest I came to this is a dispute with Best Buy about their so "matching price policy," when they get the manufacturer to label identical hard drives with a unique model number to avoid actually having to match prices (they got sued by others--not sure how that went). This is a science forum so I'm looking for hard data that shows a serious problem worth the extra effort and cost--not a single deeply troubling unverified case of a sick kid or something.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Is there really a problem?

I'm reminded of my time in the military where I'd get constant barrages of "new ideas," that started with a false premise that something needed fix'in, and of course there was a ready solution at hand if only we worked up a big contract on the tax payers dime.

Do you have an objective research that shows the problems you think this would solve are significant? Though anecdotal, I'm pretty sure I've never had a fake med, or purchased a fake car part. About the closest I came to this is a dispute with Best Buy about their so "matching price policy," when they get the manufacturer to label identical hard drives with a unique model number to avoid actually having to match prices (they got sued by others--not sure how that went). This is a science forum so I'm looking for hard data that shows a serious problem worth the extra effort and cost--not a single deeply troubling unverified case of a sick kid or something.

Significant? Counterfeiting is expanding fast in most countries. Leave apart developing countries, USA is suffering from it to some extent. It is surprising you didn’t come across ant fake thing until now but 1% to 3% fake products of almost every kind are being consumed in US and the business is on rise. Please go thru this FDA site.

Counterfeit Medicine

In India, according to a World Health Organization report, almost 20 per cent medicines sold are fake.

: Government cracks down on fake drugs menace in India : North, News - India Today

Lynx_Fox,

From your post it seems if convinced you will forward your support without reservations. I assume that you have understood my idea of SUNONPPC and knew my claim that split unique numbers protect commodities far better than simple unique numbers.

It is clear, I love my idea because its mine. I love it more because it is flawless. I am going to tell you one incident in short that took place in India. You will see gravity of the problem.

Maharashtra is one state of India that collected 110 billion rupees (more or less 2 billion dollars) as excise duty on liquors alone in financial year 2011-12. If manufacturers had showed account of every bottle they produced, excise collection would have been 20% more.

Mr. Sanjay Mukharji is commissioner (head) of excise department of Maharashtra.

When I presented my idea before his officers, DDC Mr. Yatin Sawant and Mr. Indise, they openly praised my idea. If every bottle is uniquely numbered for confirmation, manufacturer cannot hide his bottles from excise department.

But commissioner was not convinced. He alleged that manufacturer will print same unique numbers on bottles and will give dual confirmation to consumers also but will not show these numbers to excise department. Thus he will make theft of at least 20% of excise duty.

He did not reject my idea but he was of the opinion that why should he use my idea when it won’t help him increase his excise duty?

I did not know of how SMSs thru telecommunication works. Here I want your help. If anyone of you find commissioner’s allegation baseless and know the telephoning system and preservation of SMSs etc, and that manufacturer cannot hide unique numbers when sent thru SMSs.

Please someone come forward and tell how manufacturer can be stopped from dual numbering on bottles. If one gives me this info, I will make commissioner Sanjay Mukharji implement my idea on liquor bottles.

I still do not see much support for JoshuaL's 1-3% assertion, as the WHO and USDA links both discuss the problem of counterfeiting in relation to third world countries only.

Do you expect people in third world countries to actively explore the possibility of a fake product if it is going to cost them more money just to do so?

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

I still do not see much support for JoshuaL's 1-3% assertion, as the WHO and USDA links both discuss the problem of counterfeiting in relation to third world countries only.

Do you expect people in third world countries to actively explore the possibility of a fake product if it is going to cost them more money just to do so?

If USA don’t have counterfeit problem, it is very good and an exceptional case.

But wiki has different story. ‘In the United States, a federal crackdown on counterfeit imports is driving an increase in domestic output of fake merchandise, according to investigators and industry executives. Raids carried out in New York City resulted in the seizure of an estimated $200 Million in counterfeit apparel, bearing the logos of brands such as "The North Face," "Polo," "Izod Lacoste," "Rocawear," "Seven for all Mankind," and "Fubu." One of the largest seizures was a joint operation in Arizona, Texas and California that seized seventy-seven containers of fake "Nike Air Jordan" shoes and a container of "Abercrombie & Fitch" clothing, valued at $69.5 million. Another current method of attacking counterfeits is at the retail level. Fendi sued the Sam's Club division of Walmart for selling fake "Fendi" bags and leather goods in five states. Sam's Club agreed to pay Fendi a confidential amount to settle the dispute and dismiss the action. In the case Tiffany v. eBay, Tiffany & Co. sued auction site eBay for allowing the sale of counterfeit items. Gucci filed suit against thirty websites in the United States and is currently^[when?] in the process of suing one hundred more.’

For the third world people, fake products are there for bigger profits against lower quality. They lose more money than product’s real worth. They go after brand name and attraction of more discount than ever possible. They are actually looted by counterfeiters. If there are no fake products, they cannot afford brand name products. They will have to buy genuine products from small manufacturers of far better quality at fake product’s price.

If only racket of adulterated food products and fake drugs is destroyed, it will do much good to people of third world.

Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

I still do not see much support for JoshuaL's 1-3% assertion, as the WHO and USDA links both discuss the problem of counterfeiting in relation to third world countries only. Do you expect people in third world countries to actively explore the possibility of a fake product if it is going to cost them more money just to do so?

My 1-3% figure is a complete guess, as I said before, based on what I've read. Unfortunately, as noted on a different WHO page:

Defining the extent of counterfeiting is difficult for a number of reasons. The variety of information sources makes compiling statistics a difficult task. Sources of information include reports from national medicines regulatory authorities, enforcement agencies, pharmaceutical companies and nongovernmental organizations, as well as ad hoc studies on specific geographical areas or therapeutic groups.The different methods used to produce reports and studies also make compiling and comparing statistics difficult.

The same page lists a few specific examples from the last couple years (about half way down the page). Linked here.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Is there really a problem?

I'm reminded of my time in the military where I'd get constant barrages of "new ideas," that started with a false premise that something needed fix'in, and of course there was a ready solution at hand if only we worked up a big contract on the tax payers dime.

Do you have an objective research that shows the problems you think this would solve are significant? Though anecdotal, I'm pretty sure I've never had a fake med, or purchased a fake car part. About the closest I came to this is a dispute with Best Buy about their so "matching price policy," when they get the manufacturer to label identical hard drives with a unique model number to avoid actually having to match prices (they got sued by others--not sure how that went). This is a science forum so I'm looking for hard data that shows a serious problem worth the extra effort and cost--not a single deeply troubling unverified case of a sick kid or something.

I'm kinda in agreement with ya Lynx...at least here in the states if you want to avoid counterfeits, buy your products from a reputable dealer...simple as that. I've never heard of anyone getting fake meds from an actual pharmacy....only when they bought them off the street, or went to Mexico. There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.

Originally Posted by MacGyver1968

I'm kinda in agreement with ya Lynx...at least here in the states if you want to avoid counterfeits, buy your products from a reputable dealer...simple as that. I've never heard of anyone getting fake meds from an actual pharmacy....only when they bought them off the street, or went to Mexico. There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.

There are counterfeits of different qualities. What if a reputable dealer is randomly selling you a counterfeit of best available quality? Isn’t it simpler? Why he would not seek more returns from his sells like you for your money?

Consequently genuine Gucci purse manufacturer can sell fewer purses than expected compared to his total investment (cost, ads etc). Why he should suffer the loss when people buy fake Gucci purse on street? He covers up his profit by selling his purses at even higher rates.

Ultimately you pay for what counterfeiter loots (high profit margin) from street buyers.