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Thread: Complete stopage to counterfeit medicines

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    About hacking. Just few days ago my system was only for SMS by mobile. But according to Paleoichneum, SMS system is backdated idea and would not be welcomed in America. So I proposed one communication system to him by which online verification will become possible without fear of hacking.


    There will be one central 18 digit database to all manufacturers. Manufacturers will send only 18 digit info here.

    Following steps will protect manufacturer's computer from hacking.

    One. Consumer will online send 20 digit number of his bottle to central database.

    Two. Central database will send it to manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits, via phone line (SMS).

    Three. Manufacturing unit/computer will receive 20 digit number, check it and send the required information concerning

    that bottle back to central database via phone line SMS.

    Four. Central database will send that info to the consumer online.

    This way I hope we will be able to keep hackers away from manufacturer's computer.


    I seek advice from computer tech the great, from Texas.


    This makes no sense whatsoever. It's a rube goldberg system that is unnecessarily complex. This is why you should leave the design of such things to the experts. I'm not a network security engineer...so I can't tell you. Even if your system was only SMS, the numbers would still need to be stored on a server that's connected to a network. ANY server that is attached to a outside network is prone to hacking.

    I've never played, or even seen a game of Cricket. I am completely clueless about the rules, strategy or anything. This is the reason I don't try to design cricket equipment...or defense strategies for a game I've never seen played.


    Rube Goldberg’s “Self-Operating Napkin" is activated when soup spoon (A) is raised to mouth, pulling string (B) and thereby jerking ladle (C), which throws cracker (D) past parrot (E). Parrot jumps after cracker and perch (F) tilts, upsetting seeds (G) into pail (H). Extra weight in pail pulls cord (I), which opens and lights automatic cigar lighter (J), setting off skyrocket (K) which causes sickle (L) to cut string (M) and allow pendulum with attached napkin to swing back and forth, thereby wiping chin. (Wikipedia).
    Rube Goldberg’s napkin needed 13 steps from 13 different equipments to wipe the chin whereas my online verification system needs only 4 steps and no extra equipment. It is not at all time consuming.
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    MacGyver1968,

    You are not network security engineer. But you know that server that is attached to network is prone to hacking.

    You say my 20 digit numbers database needs to be stored on a server and that server has to be connected to a network. This must be done even if communication is to take place thru SMS and not ONLINE. Is it what you wanted to state by your post 186?

    If yes, I want an advice from network security engineers and I intend to ask them on computer section.
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  3. #203  
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    [QUOTE=uday yadav;363689][QUOTE=MacGyver1968;363246]
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    I didn’t duck the question. But there are sites providing enough evidence about retailers and wholesalers purchasing goods from unknown sources for more profits in US.

    As you are devoted to your job and wholeheartedly concerned about what you provide your customers with, you must look into following article by “Association For Consumer Research.”

    http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-conference-proceedings.aspx?Id=6411

    following site give data about online fake medicines.

    http://www.fda.gov/forconsumers/consumerupdates/ucm048396.htm

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm170594.htm
    you do realize the ACR report is over 27 year out of date? It was published before many of today's tech advances and is not actually useful for this discussions.

    BOth FDA links are about buying drugs online. ​Again not a situation that is relevant to the question that was posed.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  4. #204  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    Originally Posted by Paleoichneum.
    Who says the counterfeiter will be caught??? Most of the time they probably are NOT caught.

    Palaeontology, Mineralogy, Vulcanology, geology, entomology, Photography.

    Doesn’t any of above subjects require minimum basic knowledge of mathematics?

    Paleoichneum, let us skip calculations and start again. There are careless consumers and careful consumers. Careless consumers don’t check the numbers. Only careful consumers check numbers printed on bottle via SMS or ONLINE.

    Whenever careful consumer contacts the manufacturer, his mobile number or email ID gets registered in central database. If careful consumer sends wrong number, he is to be contacted via mobile or online only and asked from which retailer he purchased the bottle. The retailer is to answer the source of his purchase of that bottle and how many bottles he purchased along with it. Then the concerned wholesaler is required to justify how he came in possession of the bottles which don’t have manufacturer’s unique numbers.

    Above sequence of actions are going to take place whenever counterfeiter’s bottle is purchased by careful consumer.

    Will counterfeit skip every enquiry that starts with careful consumer’s purchase?
    The counterfeiter is there to make money. They are usually doing so by making a cheap copy of an expensive or high demand item. They get the item into the retail system by either finding a corrupt person in distribution, or by avoiding regular retail outlets all together and selling on the internet/street. The vast majority o his product is NOT caught and the little amount which is, is not likely to get the counterfeiter caught.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  5. #205  
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    ACR report of 1085 I still found useful as counterfeiters make mockery of 30 years advancement in modern technology as if they are living in 1985.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum
    Originally Posted by Paleoichneum.
    Who says the counterfeiter will be caught??? Most of the time they probably are NOT caught.

    Palaeontology, Mineralogy, Vulcanology, geology, entomology, Photography.

    Doesn’t any of above subjects require minimum basic knowledge of mathematics?

    Paleoichneum, let us skip calculations and start again. There are careless consumers and careful consumers. Careless consumers don’t check the numbers. Only careful consumers check numbers printed on bottle via SMS or ONLINE.

    Whenever careful consumer contacts the manufacturer, his mobile number or email ID gets registered in central database. If careful consumer sends wrong number, he is to be contacted via mobile or online only and asked from which retailer he purchased the bottle. The retailer is to answer the source of his purchase of that bottle and how many bottles he purchased along with it. Then the concerned wholesaler is required to justify how he came in possession of the bottles which don’t have manufacturer’s unique numbers.

    Above sequence of actions are going to take place whenever counterfeiter’s bottle is purchased by careful consumer.

    Will counterfeit skip every enquiry that starts with careful consumer’s purchase?
    The counterfeiter is there to make money. They are usually doing so by making a cheap copy of an expensive or high demand item. They get the item into the retail system by either finding a corrupt person in distribution, or by avoiding regular retail outlets all together and selling on the internet/street. The vast majority o his product is NOT caught and the little amount which is, is not likely to get the counterfeiter caught.

    So counterfeiter makes cheap copies of Gucci purse and the corrupt person in supply chain absorbs them in a supply chain. The purses are sold cheaper than the original ones. Consumers also are aware of the purses being duplicate and not original. So buyer buys them with certainty. There is no question of counterfeiter getting caught.

    On the street, fake Gucci purses are sold at $ 50 when real price is tenfold. Consumers, who want to show off, buy them cheap knowing well they are fake.

    These buyers are certainly not original Gucci’s consumers. they don't make difference to original Gucci manufacturer.

    Problem arises only when counterfeiter tries to cheat a worthy consumer by selling fake one in name of genuine. He goes on bringing down price of purse step by step to so low level that consumer gets stuck to it. Consumer wants the genuine Gucci purse at the discounted rates. Counterfeiter also offers far more discounted rate but for fake one. At last he sells the fake Gucci purse to that consumer for half of its original price. I want you to look into matter of such consumers also who want original Gucci purse only, at half the price. This consumer is original Gucci buyer but counterfeiter snatched him away.

    This transaction takes place because the manufacturer of Gucci purse has not made his purses retraceable.

    Once Gucci manufacturer puts on SUNONPPC on his Gucci purses, above type of consumers will either buy fake Gucci purses on the street at $ 50 or buy original Gucci, at its original price.

    Gucci at half the price will come to end.
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  7. #207  
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    No it wont, ad the counterfeiters will simply fake the SUNONPPC and contunue doing what they are doing.

    define "caught"
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No it wont, ad the counterfeiters will simply fake the SUNONPPC and contunue doing what they are doing.

    define "caught"

    SUNONPPC means Split Unique Number on product protection cover.

    Unique number cannot be faked. There used to be telephone directory till very recently. Every one’s telephone number was there. One could not fake one’s number because his number was printed in the telephone directory.

    Unique numbers cannot be made duplicate or faked. Split unique numbers are made 100 times difficult to be faked. That is why I am really surprised how counterfeiters will simply fake SUNONPPC?

    DEFINITION OF CAUGHT.

    When counterfeiter will simply fake the SUNONPPC, and will try to continue selling fake Gucci purses to genuine buyer at discounted price, the buyer will verify the SUNONPPC. He will soon find out that the number does not match with manufacturer’s number, manufacturer will notify to concerned authority about the incident. Concerned authority will investigate the incident and will keep watch on the counterfeiter and when he will be CAUGHT, there will be prime evidence against him to send him to serve maximum jail term.
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    How do you know it won't be counterfeitable. I have already pointed out that the counterfeiters do not care about the number itself, just about the fake product looking real enough to be sold.

    YOU show me the evidence that every report of a counterfeit item results in the arrest of the counterfeiter. You have a very idealistic view of how investigation and sentencing works.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    To get support to develop and market you're idea:

    - Show that counterfeit is a significant problem. How many people does it harm? How much money does it cost consumers and a particular business? Regulator environmental will sometime act on harm when a business might not.

    - Come up with some really simple ways to show how the concept works.

    - At least an estimate of cost to implement.

    SUNONPPC. Needs a more marketable, or memorable name or at least something people can pronounce. (you're trying to sell an idea, not propose a new biological structure)
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    Nothing to do with my idea, I just could not resist but paste it here. Not for bumping up thread.


    Last edited by uday yadav; November 5th, 2012 at 08:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How fast would that 18 digits be used? I cant find a source I truely trust but one figure I found on line suggested Walmart moving through 5475000000 items each year. That's just one store chain. and how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

    Paleoichneum , your above post 17, dated 28 Sept. clearly indicates that you had already considered the importance of unique number when it comes to identifying every single coke-a-cola bottle. Then why this unending change of opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How do you know it won't be counterfeitable. I have already pointed out that the counterfeiters do not care about the number itself, just about the fake product looking real enough to be sold.

    I agree with you. Counterfeiter will not care for hidden 2 digits. He will just make 18 digit code fake product looking real to be sold and they will get sold. But in few days news will spread among consumers that code has 20 digits and not 18 so counterfeiter will print 20 digits to give the product real looking appearance.

    Few days will go and consumers will come to know that 20 digit code is not enough. It is to be matched at verification.

    I agree counterfeiter will go on unscathed for some days until consumers learn to differentiate step by step. OK?
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How fast would that 18 digits be used? I cant find a source I truely trust but one figure I found on line suggested Walmart moving through 5475000000 items each year. That's just one store chain. and how would you allot out codes to, say coke-a-cola vers Wet Noses Dog biscuits (local dog treat company near Seattle)

    Paleoichneum , your above post 17, dated 28 Sept. clearly indicates that you had already considered the importance of unique number when it comes to identifying every single coke-a-cola bottle. Then why this unending change of opinion?
    No that post was noting how fast number would b used if every product was tagged with a number. It was not a vote of support for the system.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How do you know it won't be counterfeitable. I have already pointed out that the counterfeiters do not care about the number itself, just about the fake product looking real enough to be sold.

    I agree with you. Counterfeiter will not care for hidden 2 digits. He will just make 18 digit code fake product looking real to be sold and they will get sold. But in few days news will spread among consumers that code has 20 digits and not 18 so counterfeiter will print 20 digits to give the product real looking appearance.

    Few days will go and consumers will come to know that 20 digit code is not enough. It is to be matched at verification.

    I agree counterfeiter will go on unscathed for some days until consumers learn to differentiate step by step. OK?
    Only among the less then 10% of consumers that care to check, the other90% will just by the product and not give a crap.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    YOU show me the evidence that every report of a counterfeit item results in the arrest of the counterfeiter. You have a very idealistic view of how investigation and sentencing works.

    Till now, products don’t have retraceable identity like unique codes. When most products will start coming with codes, then only counterfeit products will be reported.

    Among every 120 verified codes, 10 to 20 codes will be reported as counterfeit.

    Consumers will not accept them. They will have to be replaced with genuine ones. This will be monetary loss to counterfeiters.

    I don’t know about United States but in India, 10 to 20% counterfeit products found with foolproof evidence will surely be investigated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How do you know it won't be counterfeitable. I have already pointed out that the counterfeiters do not care about the number itself, just about the fake product looking real enough to be sold.

    I agree with you. Counterfeiter will not care for hidden 2 digits. He will just make 18 digit code fake product looking real to be sold and they will get sold. But in few days news will spread among consumers that code has 20 digits and not 18 so counterfeiter will print 20 digits to give the product real looking appearance.

    Few days will go and consumers will come to know that 20 digit code is not enough. It is to be matched at verification.

    I agree counterfeiter will go on unscathed for some days until consumers learn to differentiate step by step. OK?
    Only among the less then 10% of consumers that care to check, the other90% will just by the product and not give a crap.

    Very good. You mentioned percentage. I wanted it from you.

    Among 1000 genuine codes, 900 will be thrown. 90% undetected.

    Among 100 fake codes 90 will be thrown. 90% undetected.

    Verification centre will receive 110 codes for verification out of which 10 will be reported as counterfeit.

    That is what I stated above. Whatever may be the percentage of counterfeiting, it will be reflected in verification.

    Just considering products sold in millions, 1% counterfeiting also will mount to thousands of fake reports a day. Very high for investigating body of any country to neglect.

    It is possible that investigating system may collapse against strong hearted counterfeiters but my system will never be defeated. It will go on accumulating evidence against them continuously at the rate of counterfeiting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    To get support to develop and market you're idea:

    - Show that counterfeit is a significant problem. How many people does it harm? How much money does it cost consumers and a particular business? Regulator environmental will sometime act on harm when a business might not.

    - Come up with some really simple ways to show how the concept works.

    - At least an estimate of cost to implement.

    SUNONPPC. Needs a more marketable, or memorable name or at least something people can pronounce. (you're trying to sell an idea, not propose a new biological structure)

    LynX-Fox,

    Before I answer you, I want a bit of info.

    Have you read the thread ‘Rich hiding more than US & UK economies combined’ byChrisgorlitz in Business & Economics?
    If you have not please go thru these sites.

    Wealthy hiding $21 trillion in tax havens, report says - World - CBC News


    BBC News - Tax havens: Super-rich 'hiding' at least $21tn


    Global super-rich hide $21 trillion in tax havens - CNN.com


    The Mega Rich Are Hiding At Least $21 Trillion In Offshore Tax Havens [Study] - Business Insider

    21 trillion dollars.

    Rich men from US and UK must be holding bigger chunk of it.

    Some of the money might have gone there by avoiding sales taxes that was due on consumer goods in US.

    I request you to give a rough estimation only of sales tax stolen in dollars in US that became part of 21 tn.
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    There is no national sales tax in the US. Sales tax is a state tax and goes to the state..not the federal government.. it's not something you can really avoid, as it is something you pay at purchace time. Income tax, estate tax, capital gains tax etc. are what rich people can avoid paying with creative bookkeeping and offshore banking.

    What does rich people hiding away money to avoid taxes have anything to do with counterfiet product protection anyway?
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 6th, 2012 at 09:33 AM.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    There is no national sales tax in the US. Sales tax is a state tax and goes to the state..not the federal government.. it's not something you can really avoid, as it is something you pay at purchace time. Income tax, estate tax, capital gains tax etc. are what rich people can avoid paying with creative bookkeeping and offshore banking.

    What does rich people hiding away money to avoid taxes have anything to do with counterfiet product protection anyway?

    I am a bit overenthusiastic about my idea. I go on imagining whole world implement my idea. I see, consumers are valuing the PPC as much as they value seal on the bottle. Please excuse me my obsession.
    In India, commissioner of excise duty of Maharashtra State bluntly refused to implement my idea on liquor bottles.
    His duty is to collect excise duty on the exact number of liquor bottles manufactured in every distillery. His men are employed day and night in 400 distilleries in his territory. They keep check on every bottle filled in every distillery.
    But Commissioner is not satisfied with this arrangement because there is no guarantee of exact number of bottles produced.
    Other challenge is liquor from other states flows in avoiding excise duty of both states.
    For this Commissioner tried barcodes. He tried holograms on the bottles. Manufacturers simply implement ideas proposed by excise Commissioner. Nothing changes. Commissioner knows he is unable to collect all the duty as more bottles are sold than reported.
    So when I presented my idea to him, he said, ‘your idea does not stop them avoiding excise duty. They will give one unique number to two bottles. Whenever such consumers verify the numbers manufacturers will OK the repeated numbers.’
    I said, ‘manufacturer will not verify numbers but your office will prepare database of 18 digit and verify the numbers.’
    He said, ‘my people will OK the numbers on manufacturers’ behalf.’
    He just did not listen to me anymore. Two of his officers were very much pleased with my idea. For them my idea was going to work because they were more close to field work.
    I then tried to contact manufacturers online. I think counterfeiters are their enemies so their officers will be pleased with my idea because my idea stops sale of fake liquors in their brand names.
    They showed least interest. They avoided me. In Mumbai, I met one who advised me not to trouble myself on such ideas.
    They showed as if they did not understand my idea.
    My conclusion is they avoided me. Why?
    I think the answer is related to the excise duty that is not paid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    LynX-Fox,

    Before I answer you, I want a bit of info.

    Have you read the thread ‘Rich hiding more than US & UK economies combined’ byChrisgorlitz in Business & Economics?
    If you have not please go thru these sites.

    Wealthy hiding $21 trillion in tax havens, report says - World - CBC News


    BBC News - Tax havens: Super-rich 'hiding' at least $21tn


    Global super-rich hide $21 trillion in tax havens - CNN.com


    The Mega Rich Are Hiding At Least $21 Trillion In Offshore Tax Havens [Study] - Business Insider

    21 trillion dollars.

    Rich men from US and UK must be holding bigger chunk of it.

    Some of the money might have gone there by avoiding sales taxes that was due on consumer goods in US.

    I request you to give a rough estimation only of sales tax stolen in dollars in US that became part of 21 tn.
    I don't see any connect between your response and your idea. At least here in the states most things counterfeit or not are purchased at retailers who'll charge what ever tax applies for that state and locality.
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    MacGyver1968 says, --- It's not something you can really avoid; as it is something you pay at purchase time.

    Lynx-Fox says,--- most things are purchased at retailers who'll charge whatever tax applies for that state and locality.

    Above 2 statements coming from 2 American citizens, it can be concluded that what all Americans pay as the price of consumer goods, is inclusive of required taxes be it local, state or federal.

    In India, it is same. Tax is collected at purchase but some of it doesn’t reach where it is supposed to.

    My question is, “In America does the entire tax collected at purchase in name of local, state or federal reach there?”

    Will someone answer?
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    YES....it does.....

    And your system will do NOTHING to change the fact that there amy be corrupt people in the chain of custody that divert the tax revenues elsewhere. And as such it is wholly irrelevant to the subject of counterfeiting.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    My conclusion is they avoided me. Why?
    Have you considered you jumped like 3 or 4 steps in the process? Right now, you are in the general concept phase of design. You don't have a system yet...you have a concept for a system. The commissioners or manufactures don't want to buy a concept, they want to buy a finished product. You just have an idea...next you need to design the idea on paper, and determine every piece of hardware the system will require. Then you need to hire software engineers to design all of the software the system will use to generate the codes, and handle the phone calls. Then you need to prototype the whole thing for real to make sure it all works together...THEN you sell the system.
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 7th, 2012 at 04:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    My conclusion is they avoided me. Why?
    Have you considered you jumped like 3 or 4 steps in the process? Right now, you are in the general concept phase of design. You don't have a system yet...you have a concept for a system. The commissioners or manufactures don't want to buy a concept, they want to buy a finished product. You just have an idea...next you need to design the idea on paper, and determine every piece of hardware the system will require. Then you need to hire software engineers to design all of the software the system will use to generate the codes, and handle the phone calls. Then you need to prototype the whole thing for real to make sure it all works together...THEN you sell the system.

    You know far better what to do. You know how to do the most. You please just take a chance and gamble on my behalf. I don’t have anything than to hope that you will win. You are computer Pandit so show your computer Panditya.

    If only Commissioner’s doubt is cleared, finance needed for constructing the entire system that you described above will be provided by ministry. That is I am sure of.

    His office has awarded 90 thousand dollars (Rs.45,00,000) annual contract to a computer firm to suggest ideas controlling duty theft and fake drugs.

    Commissioners are IAS officers and are highly respected due to their intelligence. He had said to me before his officers, “Come with the solution for repeated numbers by manufacturers and I will give it a try.”

    I can only assume that once codes are used on SMS or online, manufacturers cannot hide them. If they or Commissioner’s men try to OK same number twice on SMS or online, the system will show it. They cannot hide this from the governing authority. They cannot buy SMS system or online system.

    If only you please provide your computer tech based answer to Commissioner’s doubt, my position here will be much positive.

    COMMISSIONER’S DOUBT: Manufacturer will produce 120 bottles. He will give 20 bottles repeated numbers from 100. He will twice OK the consumers’ queries for those numbers. Having done that, he will pay excise duty on 100 bottles only instead 120.
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  26. #226  
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    You have let your overenthusiasm for your idea blind your judgement...I asked you a few pages ago about duplicate numbers, but you failed to answer...apparently the commisioner thought the same thing. No system is perfect. You dream that your system will end counterfiet goods, but it won't. The war on crime is ongoing. It is arms race. When one side comes up with a new technology or tactic that gives them an advantage...that advantage is only temporary, until the other side comes up with a new strategy to combat it.

    COMMISSIONER’S DOUBT: Manufacturer will produce 120 bottles. He will give 20 bottles repeated numbers from 100. He will twice OK the consumers’ queries for those numbers. Having done that, he will pay excise duty on 100 bottles only instead 120.
    The manufacturer of the product is the one that attaches the 20 digit code to the product. If the manufacturer is on the take...then your system fails.
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 7th, 2012 at 11:18 PM.
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    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  27. #227  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    You have let your overenthusiasm for your idea blind your judgement...I asked you a few pages ago about duplicate numbers, but you failed to answer...apparently the commisioner thought the same thing. No system is perfect. You dream that your system will end counterfiet goods, but it won't. The war on crime is ongoing. It is arms race. When one side comes up with a new technology or tactic that gives them an advantage...that advantage is only temporary, until the other side comes up with a new strategy to combat it.

    COMMISSIONER’S DOUBT: Manufacturer will produce 120 bottles. He will give 20 bottles repeated numbers from 100. He will twice OK the consumers’ queries for those numbers. Having done that, he will pay excise duty on 100 bottles only instead 120.
    The manufacturer of the product is the one that attaches the 20 digit code to the product. If the manufacturer is on the take...then your system fails.

    You are in a thoughtless hurry to see my system fail. This is just not like you. What I seek is technical help from you. It is not that my idea is weak and please help me make it stronger. I don’t have that kind of streak in me.

    My idea of Central database is well thought. It works somewhat as mediator between manufacturer and consumer and works on a single telephone number or website. It does not receive complete codes from manufacturers. It receives only 18 digits of the complete code.

    These 18 digits are no secret. One can access them via internet on website of Central database of that country.
    Consumers can also access info about verified codes on this site. Central database is of vital importance as it bars manufacturer from Okaying same number twice. If some manufacturer dares to send repeated number, Central database will immediately initiate an enquiry against such incident. There will be no place on this website to hide twice Okayed codes.

    Whatever may be the case Central database and manufacturers will only be connected via SMS for receiving and forwarding the codes. Consumers can contact Central database via SMS as well online.

    I expected that you will see the blunder of our Commissioner, instead you thought him a wise man.

    MY IDEA HAS COME TO STAY because it not only stops counterfeiting, it increases nation’s revenue.

    Everyone stand firmly behind it.
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  28. #228  
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    Paleoichneum. I am eager to respond to your post but mental job exhausts me. Please give me some time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    YES....it does.....

    And your system will do NOTHING to change the fact that there amy be corrupt people in the chain of custody that divert the tax revenues elsewhere. And as such it is wholly irrelevant to the subject of counterfeiting.

    Yes....it does.....

    Let us assume in America they don’t steal public money. But do you have evidence?

    Like when Rama (Prabhu Shree Ramchandra) of RAMAYANA reigned in India, 5000 years ago, in his rule we (Indians) did not have doors to our homes. Even today uneducated, old men and women can be heard boasting of the story as if they lived when Rama ruled. No one seeks evidence.

    When you declared my idea as wholly irrelevant to America's revenue, I realized how indispensible you have become for me. Being Indian it was embarrassing for me to discuss about America’s wealth. World’s richest country. But now I can hide my embarrassment behind your declaration and speak unashamedly.

    When the subject of honest citizens is discussed all fingers will point to an American. But next when it comes to hidden wealth of 21 trillion dollars, majority of fingers will point towards America. No doubt American businessmen create and accumulate global wealth which may be admirable. But don’t they really steal money also that comes out of American’s pocket? Though it seems like an abuse/ an insult to every American, does he have any evidence against this allegation?
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  30. #230  
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    You're completely off-topic. People cheat on their taxes in the US all of time...but it's income taxes that they cheat on, not sales tax. You're attempting to somehow claim your system will stop tax fraud, when it won't.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  31. #231  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    YES....it does.....

    And your system will do NOTHING to change the fact that there amy be corrupt people in the chain of custody that divert the tax revenues elsewhere. And as such it is wholly irrelevant to the subject of counterfeiting.

    Yes....it does.....

    Let us assume in America they don’t steal public money. But do you have evidence?

    Like when Rama (Prabhu Shree Ramchandra) of RAMAYANA reigned in India, 5000 years ago, in his rule we (Indians) did not have doors to our homes. Even today uneducated, old men and women can be heard boasting of the story as if they lived when Rama ruled. No one seeks evidence.

    When you declared my idea as wholly irrelevant to America's revenue, I realized how indispensible you have become for me. Being Indian it was embarrassing for me to discuss about America’s wealth. World’s richest country. But now I can hide my embarrassment behind your declaration and speak unashamedly.

    When the subject of honest citizens is discussed all fingers will point to an American. But next when it comes to hidden wealth of 21 trillion dollars, majority of fingers will point towards America. No doubt American businessmen create and accumulate global wealth which may be admirable. But don’t they really steal money also that comes out of American’s pocket? Though it seems like an abuse/ an insult to every American, does he have any evidence against this allegation?
    There are the occasional people who do, but they are very few and WHOLE IRRELEVANT to your assertions about your product.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  32. #232  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    You're completely off-topic. People cheat on their taxes in the US all of time...but it's income taxes that they cheat on, not sales tax. You're attempting to somehow claim your system will stop tax fraud, when it won't.

    I am not attempting to somehow claim.

    My subject is important so I have become very careful with the words and I don’t want anyone misinterpreting them that my whole post becomes meaningless. But I can say you and Paleoichneum have guessed right.

    According to you people cheat on income tax all of time. According to Paleoichneum very few people cheat on taxes. Though there is disagreement between you about expanse of tax cheating, neither has evidence to support his claim.

    We find one thing universal about us. We don’t like to give away what we hold. Once we receive our income we don’t like to pay income tax out of it. Rich people are also like us. Majority of them also don’t like to part with what they have earned using their business acumen, hard work and substantial capital in name of various taxes.

    Sales tax is the tax that government does not seek from rich men’s (manufacturer here) well earned money. It is on and above their investment and profit. Government just cannot gather sales tax from every buyer so it is included in the price that the buyer pays.

    When manufacturer produces 1000 items, he calculates the expenditure, adds his profit, and adds wholesaler’s profit, adds retailer’s profit and then sales tax is added in it. Thus the final price of that item is arrived at.

    When buyer purchases that item he gets satisfaction equivalent to the paid price that is inclusive of sales tax. Retailer takes out his profit and sends remaining amount to wholesaler. Wholesaler takes out his profit and sends remaining amount to the manufacturer. Manufacturer takes out his profit and expenditure. Yet sales tax that belongs to government remains with manufacturer.

    If we don’t like to give away what we hold is true, does the manufacturer also cheat on sales tax the way we cheat on income tax?

    Yes or No, we don’t have evidence.
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  33. #233  
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    I am not talking about income tax, I am talking about people who are in the retail chain not reporting the correct amount of taxes, such as sales and excise. MacGyver is specifically talking about income tax, which , in the US is a very different tax from the ones you product is dealing with and is not at anypoint related to how much someone spend on products.


    You also have the supply part of things rather mixed up, unless something is being sold on consignment, the manufacturer sells the product to the distributor, who then sells the product to either another distributor or to the retailer. Money does not flow up the supply chain after the point of sale to a customer as you assert, but is already taken out of the capital a retailer/distributor has and the sale of the item is recouping that money.

    The sales tax is taken out of the total sales income of a retailer on a monthly to quarterly basis (depending on location), it is NEVER taken solely form the manufacturer if it is taken from them, as wholesalers, at all.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  34. #234  
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    Pal was talking about sales tax. Not all taxes in general. There is no disagreement between us. Manufacturers don't charge sales tax...that happens at the retail level. Here in Dallas, the sales tax rate is 8.25%. I walk into a store, pick up an item that is priced at $1...then I take it to the cash register and pay $1.08 for it. The store then pays that 8 cents to the city and the state. The majority of that 8 cents goes to pay for public schools. Federal income tax is where most of the tax revenue for the country comes from. I pay somewhere around 25% of my income in federal income tax.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  35. #235  
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    I thank Paleoichneum for the invaluable information regarding sales tax.

    I thank MacGyver1968 for information regarding federal income tax. He also explained how the sales tax is collected and utilized locally.

    Before their posts, I didn’t know span of misappropriation of public money in sovereign America. I imagined least possible stealing of public money under the watchful and supreme governing authority that the whole world hopefully follows in the steps of. But just under the layer of astonishing prosperity, the political power and financial power in America are entwined so like any other countries as if they all have evolved from same DNA.

    Misappropriation of public money is global issue. In last two days I included America in it as she also suffers same fate of other countries. She has little political will and freedom to change the existing financial set up that is more if not unduly beneficial to ruthless wealth creators.

    In America whoever is doing some kind of business (from retailers to manufacturers) is entitled to loot some of public money on and above what he earns from his legitimate business. Retailer keeps some of sales tax for himself and thus hides his sales and save much in income tax. Manufacturer hides some production, thus increases production cost per item and creates unaccountable money. This all is a global trend.

    When I proposed to the Commissioner that my idea will increase his excise duty, I was confident that counterfeiting will be stopped only if manufacturer sends all unique numbers to Central database. But if he sends all unique numbers then he cannot hide his production. This is the dilemma in my Indian story.

    In America, if my idea is implemented to stop counterfeit products, it will make manufacturers come out clean with their total production which in any case they will not want. So my idea will be fiercely opposed by all except genuine consumers.

    But if consumers firmly support my idea, it will increase America’s revenue.
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  36. #236  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    My conclusion is they avoided me. Why?
    Have you considered you jumped like 3 or 4 steps in the process? Right now, you are in the general concept phase of design. You don't have a system yet...you have a concept for a system. The commissioners or manufactures don't want to buy a concept, they want to buy a finished product. You just have an idea...next you need to design the idea on paper, and determine every piece of hardware the system will require. Then you need to hire software engineers to design all of the software the system will use to generate the codes, and handle the phone calls. Then you need to prototype the whole thing for real to make sure it all works together...THEN you sell the system.

    I don’t deny importance of finished product. But I am totally helpless in it. People like you who are needed to materialize my concept into a system or a finished product.

    My idea has survived the criticism. It is due for constructive system. I ask for help.
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  37. #237  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post

    In America, if my idea is implemented to stop counterfeit products, it will make manufacturers come out clean with their total production which in any case they will not want. So my idea will be fiercely opposed by all except genuine consumers.

    But if consumers firmly support my idea, it will increase America’s revenue.
    What?? Do you have ANY evidence that american manufacturers are NOT reporting all products made?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  38. #238  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post

    In America, if my idea is implemented to stop counterfeit products, it will make manufacturers come out clean with their total production which in any case they will not want. So my idea will be fiercely opposed by all except genuine consumers.

    But if consumers firmly support my idea, it will increase America’s revenue.
    What?? Do you have ANY evidence that american manufacturers are NOT reporting all products made?

    Please don’t be shocked.

    On 9th, Nov. 2012,03:36 AM in my post 232, I said, “Yes or No, we don’t have evidence.”

    Now I say, “ there are no such constraints on American manufacturer that compels him to keep away from creative bookkeeping.”

    The following site shows the enormity of consumer goods market.

    http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/08/get_it_straight.html

    I am sure that for a manufacturer ‘creative bookkeeping’ (MacGyver1968’s word) is more wealth creating than legitimate product manufacturing.
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  39. #239  
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    No, creative bookkeeping is not more lucrative for the majority of businesses, and the percentage for which is it are not going to use your product anyways. You can not force businesses to use a counterfeiting product. And this again has nothing to do with your product anyways. Why do you keep bringing up totally irrelevant topics rather then address the issues with your idea?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  40. #240  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No, creative bookkeeping is not more lucrative for the majority of businesses, and the percentage for which is it are not going to use your product anyways. You can not force businesses to use a counterfeiting product. And this again has nothing to do with your product anyways. Why do you keep bringing up totally irrelevant topics rather then address the issues with your idea?

    Please don’t get annoyed.

    I discussed that if we keep fraction of a numeric code at different place, counterfeiter cannot use it. By and by consumer understands the importance of split code on their product. Knowing and buying genuine product becomes simple.


    Consumer goods which are in constant use because of wear and tear and consumption are apt for counterfeiting. There are countless products which fall in this category.

    My idea is an instrument that makes product recognition simple that makes sale of counterfeits standstill.

    Now I am discussing the problems in implementing it. My first problem as MacGyver1968 has put in, I don’t have a system yet. It is only a concept (but well scrutinized). I need to design it on paper and determine every piece of hardware it will require....I will need to hire software designers etc. Then I need to prototype the whole thing for real to make sure it all works together...THEN I sell the system.


    My request to MacGyver1968:

    “At present not me but you know best whatever this means and if you think my idea may work, please help me in this. When my idea succeeds you will be millionaire in dollars within no time and your annual income will be one million dollars and increasing accordingly.”

    Second problem I suspect manufacturers will not be happy to use my idea is spite of its usefulness in counterfeiting. Discussion on this problem cannot be called irrelevant.
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  41. #241  
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    (I must express myself. Am I to blame if the thread gets bumped up?)

    Iron sharpens iron.
    Who sharpens whom? The sharpener or the sharpened?
    Who did sharpen, who is sharpened?
    When iron warps.
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  42. #242  
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    I am granted a patent for my invention. The certificate I received says,' It is hereby certified that a patent has been granted to the patentee for an invention entitled A TAMPER PREVENTING SEAL as disclosed in the above mentioned application for the term of 20 years from 11th day of January 2012 in accordance with the provisions of the Patents Act, 1970.

    Patent No. : 3620 61
    Application No. : 94/MUM/2012.
    Date of filing : 11/01/2012
    Patentee : MR> UDAY SAKHARAM YADAV

    https://ipindiaservices.gov.in/publicsearch this link provides all details about my invention just by filling the patent application number in the given slot.
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  43. #243  
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    Irrelevant to a pointless product, as extensively discussed 10 years ago
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  44. #244  
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    My patented invention eliminates counterfeits how can it be irrelevant?
    After more than 10 years i won the patent for my revolutionary idea of splitting the unique number in two parts and then pasting them across the seal of the opening of a product container in such a manner that the consumer has to tear of one part prior to breaking the seal and thus destroys the unique identity of that particular container.
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