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Thread: Complete stopage to counterfeit medicines

  1. #101  
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    Again....where is the evidence that it's a significant problem in the US....anyone can contrive hypothetical what ifs etc--where's the evidence it's really happening? Show us it needs fix'in. How many people died of counterfeit meds in the US last year according to what credible study? How about another advanced nation? Meds are already expensive enough.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post

    I'm kinda in agreement with ya Lynx...at least here in the states if you want to avoid counterfeits, buy your products from a reputable dealer...simple as that. I've never heard of anyone getting fake meds from an actual pharmacy....only when they bought them off the street, or went to Mexico. There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.
    There are counterfeits of different qualities. What if a reputable dealer is randomly selling you a counterfeit of best available quality? Isn’t it simpler? Why he would not seek more returns from his sells like you for your money?

    Consequently genuine Gucci purse manufacturer can sell fewer purses than expected compared to his total investment (cost, ads etc). Why he should suffer the loss when people buy fake Gucci purse on street? He covers up his profit by selling his purses at even higher rates.

    Ultimately you pay for what counterfeiter loots (high profit margin) from street buyers.
    If they are reputable and using reputable distributors, why would they have counterfeit product in the first place?
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  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaL View Post
    ]

    My 1-3% figure is a complete guess, as I said before, based on what I've read. Unfortunately, as noted on a different WHO page:

    same page lists a few specific examples from the last couple years (about half way down the page). Linked here.
    Yes. It was guess only. I agree it was a wild and wrong guess and totally out of proportions. 1% USA’s GDP may equal India’s annual GDP. So counterfeiting in USA can never be calculated in terms of percentage.

    The activities against counterfeiters and seizers of fake goods in millions of dollars by various US government bodies show us their existence in USA.

    Paleoichneum, You are at liberty to take lightly or ignore the severe and plentiful actions of FDA etc. against counterfeiters.
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 18th, 2012 at 02:14 AM. Reason: font size
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  4. #104  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post

    I'm kinda in agreement with ya Lynx...at least here in the states if you want to avoid counterfeits, buy your products from a reputable dealer...simple as that. I've never heard of anyone getting fake meds from an actual pharmacy....only when they bought them off the street, or went to Mexico. There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.
    There are counterfeits of different qualities. What if a reputable dealer is randomly selling you a counterfeit of best available quality? Isn’t it simpler? Why he would not seek more returns from his sells like you for your money?

    Consequently genuine Gucci purse manufacturer can sell fewer purses than expected compared to his total investment (cost, ads etc). Why he should suffer the loss when people buy fake Gucci purse on street? He covers up his profit by selling his purses at even higher rates.

    Ultimately you pay for what counterfeiter loots (high profit margin) from street buyers.
    If they are reputable and using reputable distributors, why would they have counterfeit product in the first place?
    Do you agree bacause of fake Gucci purses, genuine manufacturer is charging you a little more?
    If reputable dealer does it, only reputable distributer can assist him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Again....where is the evidence that it's a significant problem in the US.... How about another advanced nation? Meds are already expensive enough.
    I am from India and don’t know if there is any fake goods business goes on in already developed countries.

    But one of my dear member informed on this thread few days ago (28 Sept. 1.27 pm) that in UK it is constant battle against fake goods and fake medicines are taken very seriously indeed.
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    Lynz_Fox, Paleoichneum, MacGyver1968 and Pong.

    It may be what you mean by significant problem is that advanced nation’s anti counterfeit systems are so effective in your assumption that such goods, even in smallest possible quantity just cannot enter in.

    If fake goods business is not significant in USA, it is not due to effective measures against them but because your people like Paleoichneum seek genuine products and are ready to pay for it.

    At present sell of such goods are on rise there because USA national’s income has come down. Most of this circle is psychologically connected.
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  7. #107  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    One other method that manufacturers use to protect their products is holographic stickers:


    You see them everywhere...on software, dvd movies, and Visa cards. Apparently, it's next to impossible for forgers to reproduce them. If you don't see the official sticker, you know it fake.
    HOW TO MAKE FAKE ID, BARCODES AND HOLOGRAMS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbpBsEsMoNg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Cdad-MQlY


    http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Hologram

    http://www.ehow.com/how_5040757_make-id-holograms.html
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  8. #108  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    There are counterfeits of different qualities. What if a reputable dealer is randomly selling you a counterfeit of best available quality? Isn’t it simpler? Why he would not seek more returns from his sells like you for your money?

    Consequently genuine Gucci purse manufacturer can sell fewer purses than expected compared to his total investment (cost, ads etc). Why he should suffer the loss when people buy fake Gucci purse on street? He covers up his profit by selling his purses at even higher rates.

    Ultimately you pay for what counterfeiter loots (high profit margin) from street buyers.
    Then they aren't a reputable dealer. If they are an authorized seller...they have the backing of the factory. Most authorized dealers wouldn't risk their reputation, or living to make a quick buck. Plus they would be open to a law suit.

    Real Gucci purses cost $500 or more...only rich people buy them. The fakes at the swap meet cost $50, and are bought by wanna-bes. It's a different market of people.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    [QUOTE=MacGyver1968;359673

    Then they aren't a reputable dealer. If they are an authorized seller...they have the backing of the factory. Most authorized dealers wouldn't risk their reputation, or living to make a quick buck. Plus they would be open to a law suit.

    Real Gucci purses cost $500 or more...only rich people buy them. The fakes at the swap meet cost $50, and are bought by wanna-bes. It's a different market of people.[/QUOTE]

    Your statement is regarding most authorized dealers. You exclude few. So your statement doesn’t differ from mine.

    1. If real Gucci purse is only available at authorized dealers, why did it file suit against thirty websites in the United States and is currently in the process of suing one hundred more? (source: counterfeit- wikipedia).

    2. Walmart is world famous retail chain. Why did Fendi sue the Sam’s Club division of Walmart for selling fake bags and leather goods in five states?

    3. eBay is renowned auction site. Why did Tiffany & Co. sue auction site eBay for allowing the sale of counterfeit items?
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.
    Fake liquor bottles do have seal on their cap or else no one will buy them.

    At bar they tear off or disfigure the tax sticker because empty bottle with govt. tax sticker calls for heavy fine. Adulterators know this very well, so they paste govt. (fake) sticker only after they fill the bottle with duplicate liquor.

    In bar they never forget to disfigure it before consumer.
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 18th, 2012 at 08:47 AM. Reason: spelling
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  11. #111  
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    It would only make sense to refill the most expensive liquors with cheaper booze, and most drinkers could INSTANTLY tell if you served them something other than what they ordered. I could tell from the smell alone if you poured me Glenlivet or not. Things might be different in India.
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  12. #112  
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    uday, your system, which has not been shown to be practical, will only increase the price of goods, and thus increase the possibility of them being faked. you keep asserting that reputable dealers and outlets are selling fake goods, but they are not. You are trying to implement a system on the US that is not needed and which is not viable in your home country.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post

    I'm kinda in agreement with ya Lynx...at least here in the states if you want to avoid counterfeits, buy your products from a reputable dealer...simple as that. I've never heard of anyone getting fake meds from an actual pharmacy....only when they bought them off the street, or went to Mexico. There certainly isn't a problem with fake liquor, as all bottles have a seal on the cap, and bars are required to scratch or disfigure the tax sticker on a bottle of liquor immediately after it's emptied....possession of an empty bottle with an intact tax sticker carries a serious fine. Moral of the story, don't buy your Gucci purse or Rolex watch from a swap meet, and only buy from authorized dealers, and you don't have to worry.
    There are counterfeits of different qualities. What if a reputable dealer is randomly selling you a counterfeit of best available quality? Isn’t it simpler? Why he would not seek more returns from his sells like you for your money?

    Consequently genuine Gucci purse manufacturer can sell fewer purses than expected compared to his total investment (cost, ads etc). Why he should suffer the loss when people buy fake Gucci purse on street? He covers up his profit by selling his purses at even higher rates.

    Ultimately you pay for what counterfeiter loots (high profit margin) from street buyers.
    If they are reputable and using reputable distributors, why would they have counterfeit product in the first place?
    Do you agree bacause of fake Gucci purses, genuine manufacturer is charging you a little more?
    If reputable dealer does it, only reputable distributer can assist him.
    no I do not agree with this premise. Show me the empirical evidence that Gucci (an Italian company) is charging higher prices do to counterfeiting.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  14. #114  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post

    Then they aren't a reputable dealer. If they are an authorized seller...they have the backing of the factory. Most authorized dealers wouldn't risk their reputation, or living to make a quick buck. Plus they would be open to a law suit.

    Real Gucci purses cost $500 or more...only rich people buy them. The fakes at the swap meet cost $50, and are bought by wanna-bes. It's a different market of people.
    Your statement is regarding most authorized dealers. You exclude few. So your statement doesn’t differ from mine.

    1. If real Gucci purse is only available at authorized dealers, why did it file suit against thirty websites in the United States and is currently in the process of suing one hundred more? (source: counterfeit- wikipedia).

    2. Walmart is world famous retail chain. Why did Fendi sue the Sam’s Club division of Walmart for selling fake bags and leather goods in five states?

    3. eBay is renowned auction site. Why did Tiffany & Co. sue auction site eBay for allowing the sale of counterfeit items?
    1. Do you have other proof they have besides the wiki Counterfiet page? That Gucci sentence is not referenced at all in the article is tagged as not reliable because its not cited.

    2.Walmart may be "world famous" but they are not at all considered reputable by many people do to their money making practices and bullying tactics for lowering costs.

    3. Because Tiffany's wanted $. Did you read what the outcome of the lawsuit was? Tiffany's lost all counts of the lawsuit.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    2.Walmart may be "world famous" but they are not at all considered reputable by many people do to their money making practices and bullying tactics for lowering costs.
    Ha! This made me snicker. So true. The worst is when they advertise a product as something its not. Especially computers. "Hey we got the new samsung xxx over here for half the price!" But they neglect to mention it has a completely different motherboard in it with a crappy cpu, that just happens to be shoved into the same skin. Walmart = Assholes. XP
    "The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is... doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh*t dead wrong."

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    I once bought a bag of weed that turned out to be oregano....I sure wish there was a 10 digit code on the side of the bag and a phone number I could have called to ensure it's authenticity.

    Uday, don't take our critiques of your system personally....iron sharpens iron.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    My dear and good hearted critics of my invention SUNONPPC, I am overwhelmed by your sharp but no pricks reasoning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    It would only make sense to refill the most expensive liquors with cheaper booze, and most drinkers could INSTANTLY tell if you served them something other than what they ordered. I could tell from the smell alone if you poured me Glenlivet or not. Things might be different in India.
    I love this. I know pure milk taste and that makes me go extra distance to “Shankar Dairy” to get it. I know the taste but it is depending on the belief also as you mention about the reputable dealer.

    I used to love booze when with friends. At bar with 1st and 2nd pegs everyone was always intent on taste and smell but afterwards, count of pegs only used to remain subject of debate, leave aside taste and smell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    uday, your system, which has not been shown to be practical, will only increase the price of goods, and thus increase the possibility of them being faked. you keep asserting that reputable dealers and outlets are selling fake goods, but they are not. You are trying to implement a system on the US that is not needed and which is not viable in your home country.
    Paleoichneum, I agree and believe what you honestly believe. It must be my mistake to doubt sincerity and honesty of American reputable distributors and reputable dealers.

    Unique Numbering System is not my idea. This system is born in USA. It is being implemented worldwide. Mainly for mobile prepaid scratch cards. An American company by name of Sproxil, has come forward with applying UNS or UID idea on medicinal strips.



    Sproxil is based in Cambridge, Massachusetts that provides a consumer SMS verification service through its Mobile Product Authentication (MPA) service. At present some pharmaceutical companies in African countries and India have agreed to try this Sproxil idea of UID (Unique ID) of strips on some of their medicines, mainly for Malaria in Africa.

    But in reality no one is serious about the whole thing. Because it is just one more precautionary measure on and above ornamental Barcodes and holograms.

    UID, Barcodes and holograms all are imported to India from USA.

    Mine idea is only to SPLIT Sproxil's unique number in two and place the parts apart (free of cost).

    Please give little thought to the difference my idea makes to the whole thing. I know my idea doesn’t add to cost also.
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    Originally Posted by Paleoichneum

    1. Do you have other proof they have besides the wiki Counterfiet page? That Gucci sentence is not referenced at all in the article is tagged as not reliable because its not cited.

    2.Walmart may be "world famous" but they are not at all considered reputable by many people do to their money making practices and bullying tactics for lowering costs.

    3. Because Tiffany's wanted $. Did you read what the outcome of the lawsuit was? Tiffany's lost all counts of the lawsuit.[/QUOTE]

    Arriving at the price figure in money must be complicated mathematical and commercial procedure. They (Gucci) must be taking into account innumerable things while constructing a fair and justified price tag. I was just saying that counterfeiting of their product might be affecting this price tag procedure. It must be welcomed by their consumers their discounting this aspect.

    Only if Gucci allows me to prepare and paste appropriate SUNONPPC on their purses (free of cost), in future counterfeiting will never disturb their price tag procedure.
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 19th, 2012 at 03:00 AM. Reason: new to it
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    2.Walmart may be "world famous" but they are not at all considered reputable by many people do to their money making practices and bullying tactics for lowering costs.
    Ha! This made me snicker. So true. The worst is when they advertise a product as something its not. Especially computers. "Hey we got the new samsung xxx over here for half the price!" But they neglect to mention it has a completely different motherboard in it with a crappy cpu, that just happens to be shoved into the same skin. Walmart = Assholes. XP
    Walmart is coming to India. See how important is SUNONPPC for us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    I once bought a bag of weed that turned out to be oregano....I sure wish there was a 10 digit code on the side of the bag and a phone number I could have called to ensure it's authenticity.

    Uday, don't take our critiques of your system personally....iron sharpens iron.
    Thank you MacGyver1968.

    I only pray your attention to the very small difference between 10 digit code and my split unique number.
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  23. #123  
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    What is "count of pegs"? We don't have that where I'm from. What does this mean?
    "The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is... doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh*t dead wrong."

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaL View Post
    What is "count of pegs"? We don't have that where I'm from. What does this mean?
    Peg is unit for liquor. In Mumbai in grade-2 bar, when you ask for a peg, it is meant to be of 60 ml. i.e.60 milliliter. It is also called large peg. Peg is always large unless you ask for small one. Small peg is of 30 ml.
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    Huh, I had no idea. Also what is "grade-2 bar". I have never heard of that either. Around we just have... bars.
    "The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is... doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh*t dead wrong."

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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Lynz_Fox, Paleoichneum, MacGyver1968 and Pong.

    It may be what you mean by significant problem is that advanced nation’s anti counterfeit systems are so effective in your assumption that such goods, even in smallest possible quantity just cannot enter in.

    If fake goods business is not significant in USA, it is not due to effective measures against them but because your people like Paleoichneum seek genuine products and are ready to pay for it.
    Honestly that makes no sense. The whole point is being able to recognize the fake products--whether it's the retailer screening them or the end user, the systems already in place seem almost entirely effective already. If your coding system can replace another fake-detecting method for lower cost, I've got no problem with it. What I don't want is additional cost added to expensive meds and other things, for a trivial problem.
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    The EMEA recently (last year) instituted "Directive 2011/62/EU" to further prevent fake drugs entering european supply chains. A few of the most prominent feature of the directive:

    - obligatory features on the outer packaging of medicines to demonstrate that they are authentic;
    - strengthened requirements for the inspection of the manufacturers of pharmaceutical ingredients;
    - the obligation for manufacturers and distributors to report any suspicion of falsified medicines;
    - an obligatory logo that must be placed on the websites of legally operating online pharmacies, with a link to official national registers.

    So, UDAY, I really like your idea, but it looks like you may have better luck trying outside the US or UK, as these countries approach the problem from a different angle, and the problem is small enough that they don't sweat it too much. But your solution would still be fantastic in countries that experience a larger percentage of fake drugs (what the EMEA calls "falsified medicinal products"). There are a couple departments in India that might be a good starting place:
    Central Drug Standards Control Organisation (find phone numbers and addresses here)
    and
    Ministry of Food and Consumer Affairs (I couldn't find phone numbers, but the website is here)

    Let me know how it goes!
    "The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is... doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh*t dead wrong."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox;360043[FONT=times new roman
    .[/FONT]
    Honestly that makes no sense. The whole point is being able to recognize the fake products--whether it's the retailer screening them or the end user, the systems already in place seem almost entirely effective already. If your coding system can replace another fake-detecting method for lower cost, I've got no problem with it. What I don't want is additional cost added to expensive meds and other things, for a trivial problem.[/QUOTE]


    The existing fake detection systems are costly whereas mine cost is negligible.

    My system is entirely effective whereas existing ones are ALMOST entirely effective.

    The problem is you have not understood my idea to its entirety.

    It is like going on reading a poem but finding suddenly the meaning, hidden only in the last few words. But then only alert minds can exercise their ability to grab the meaning, while it appears like surfacing above.

    It is essential that you don’t mistake my idea with similar ones then only you will be able to grab essence of my idea.
    ------------------------------------

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  29. #129  
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    yours is NOT negligible in cost. It will cost to put the codes on the product, it will cost to register the codes, It takes time and effort away from other tasks to verify the codes, and if it is not internet based then there is the real possibility that the phone numbers udes may be compromised, or people will have to spend money on a disposable phone.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  30. #130  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaL View Post
    The EMEA recently (last year) instituted "Directive 2011/62/EU" to further prevent fake drugs entering european supply chains. A few of the most prominent feature of the directive:

    - obligatory features on the outer packaging of medicines to demonstrate that they are authentic;
    - strengthened requirements for the inspection of the manufacturers of pharmaceutical ingredients;
    - the obligation for manufacturers and distributors to report any suspicion of falsified medicines;
    - an obligatory logo that must be placed on the websites of legally operating online pharmacies, with a link to official national registers.

    So, UDAY, I really like your idea, but it looks like you may have better luck trying outside the US or UK, as these countries approach the problem from a different angle, and the problem is small enough that they don't sweat it too much. But your solution would still be fantastic in countries that experience a larger percentage of fake drugs (what the EMEA calls "falsified medicinal products"). There are a couple departments in India that might be a good starting place:
    Central Drug Standards Control Organisation (find phone numbers and addresses here)
    and
    Ministry of Food and Consumer Affairs (I couldn't find phone numbers, but the website is here)

    Let me know how it goes!

    Thanks, you good hearted man.

    It is not small problem, big problem or their sweating.

    The problem is in their seeing it. They just can’t see the idea as a solution. The idea is so alike others, and the difference is so minute, I am lucky no one ridiculed it harshly.

    I know forum is not place to find industrialists bringing their worries about quality protection. Only if you were one of them.

    Now as the idea is born and is keeping itself alive, it will be implemented all over shortly.

    As you suggest, I will contactCentral Drug Standards Control Organization
    and Ministry of Food and Consumer Affairs in India.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    yours is NOT negligible in cost. It will cost to put the codes on the product, it will cost to register the codes, It takes time and effort away from other tasks to verify the codes, and if it is not internet based then there is the real possibility that the phone numbers udes may be compromised, or people will have to spend money on a disposable phone.
    Codes printing cost of mine will be far less than printing 2D barcode and hologram combined. Mine polythene paper cost will be far less than the material used for barcode and hologram. No other precaution will be needed.
    According to Lynx_Fox the screening system is already in place. So already time and efforts are being spent on verifying the authenticity of product. It may be that time spent as on today possibly be shorter as only 10% verification will be needed to safeguard entire system.
    About online verification. Why not to use it wherever it is practically available to all and in good strength?
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 20th, 2012 at 01:28 PM.
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    You yourself earlier on in the thread stated that the system would not be online, when I asked about the system being hacked.

    The maintenance of the system database and updating of information itself means there will NEED to be cost for it to function. There is no guaranteeing that your system will be cheaper then other methods, especially when it comes to designing a new bar structure to fit each new bottle that a company comes up with.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Thank you for reminding. But it is a thought process.

    In my patent papers I have proposed that phone number for verification is to be only one. It will have central data base for all 18 digit unique numbers of all manufacturers. A manufacturer’s computer will award 20 digit number to a bottle but will send 18 digits to this central data base.

    If a manufacturer has ten manufacturing units then all ten units will have separate computers and separate 7 digit codes for their verification. Each will be separately connected with central data base.

    When consumer sends his bottle’s 20 digit number, central based phone number forwards it to that particular unit. The unit confirms the number and sends the necessary information regarding that particular bottle to central phone number that then informs the consumer.

    Paleoichneum, I think in this process we can keep the hacker away. I request you if you have some kind of idea that helps, it will be very useful. Because then the system can be used online.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    The maintenance of the system database and updating of information itself means there will NEED to be cost for it to function.

    I don’t know anything about computing. Since 2001, I have computer in my home in India. 2 years back it is replaced with latest version available in India. Today I have everything in my computer that I stored since 2001. I or my son did not pay anything to anyone for keeping the stored info safe and then transferring it to new computer.


    If this is so, how a manufacturing unit in USA, will have to pay price for maintenance and updating of information that is in smallest possible form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    There is no guaranteeing that your system will be cheaper then other methods, especially when it comes to designing a new bar structure to fit each new bottle that a company comes up with.
    I have already explained before that SUNONPPC polythene paper will be same for every product in thickness and color. Only shape will defer as per product’s size and shape.

    Once one removes PPC from expensive bottle as well cheap bottle, it will be difficult to know which belongs to whom.

    It will be looked after that PPCs don’t differ with prices of bottles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    You yourself earlier on in the thread stated that the system would not be online, when I asked about the system being hacked.

    It was going in my mind when you hacked me with above statement.

    I think I have found a solution for hacking problem some two or three hours ago. This is 8.50 in the morning here.

    One. Consumer will online send 20 digit number of his bottle to 18 digits central data base.

    Two. Central data base will send it to certain manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits, via phone line (SMS).

    Three. Manufacturing unit will send the required information concerning that bottle to central data base via phone line SMS.

    Four. Central data base will send that info to the consumer online.

    This way I hope we will be able to keep hackers away from every manufacturing unit’s computer.

    In short, consumer and central data base connection will be online but central data base and manufacturing unit will be connected by phone line.
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  37. #137  
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    How are you paying all the employees involved in the verification process?? They will all add to the PPC cost
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How are you paying all the employees involved in the verification process?? They will all add to the PPC cost

    You are right my dear Paleoichneum. But there must be no one, manually connected with the manufacturer’s computer. Manufacturer will have to take care that the 20 digit data base of his manufacturing unit remains safe. This will cost him some money.

    Operations at the central data base will need some man force that will cost money. As the more manufacturing units go on applying our system, average of expenses per unit will come down.

    Yes. This will add to PPC cost. Still our system will be far cheaper than the existing systems’ exorbitant charges.

    They are acting as savior to justify their exorbitant charges.
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  39. #139  
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    Why "must" the databases be separate? How do you know it will be cheaper. (How do you define exorbitant?)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Why "must" the databases be separate? How do you know it will be cheaper. (How do you define exorbitant?)

    Single manufacturer using the system, separate data base may not be required. But with multi users there has to be one common phone number for all manufacturers. If it is one number to receive 20 digit number queries from every corner, then it needs to be operated like telephone exchange. So this exchange needs to have 7 digit number of every manufacturing unit to send the query to.

    I know my idea will be cheaper because I will give it to them cheaper.

    For definition of exorbitant ‘privilege’ please refer to Wikipedia.
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  41. #141  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post

    I don’t know anything about computing. Since 2001, I have computer in my home in India. 2 years back it is replaced with latest version available in India. Today I have everything in my computer that I stored since 2001. I or my son did not pay anything to anyone for keeping the stored info safe and then transferring it to new computer.


    If this is so, how a manufacturing unit in USA, will have to pay price for maintenance and updating of information that is in smallest possible form.
    Then why are you trying to design an entire computer system? You are aware that a single home computer is different than an entire network of servers? It's the reason large companies pay millions of dollars each year for their IT departments.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post


    I know my idea will be cheaper because I will give it to them cheaper.

    How can you possibly know that? You don't seem to have any knowledge of the hardware and labor involved in your system...how can you know how much it costs? How do you know what others are paying currently? You WANT it to be cheaper...but that doesn't mean it will be.

    I don't see how your system would be any more effective than say...hologram security stickers....and they don't require a massive computer center, IT department, and phone centers. They are easier to use and implement....and the end users doesn't have to call anybody...just look at the package.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post


    I know my idea will be cheaper because I will give it to them cheaper.

    How can you possibly know that? You don't seem to have any knowledge of the hardware and labor involved in your system...how can you know how much it costs? How do you know what others are paying currently? You WANT it to be cheaper...but that doesn't mean it will be.

    I don't see how your system would be any more effective than say...hologram security stickers....and they don't require a massive computer center, IT department, and phone centers. They are easier to use and implement....and the end users doesn't have to call anybody...just look at the package.
    Do you believe I know printing process?

    Do I know how to produce polythene of certain thickness and quality?

    Do I know how they will be pasting millions of PPCs on millions of products in a single day without a single mistake in 20 digit UIDs?

    There is whole world I don’ know of, save whatever little I know.

    In spite of all my ignorance, I could do some inventing which you are ignoring.

    You have not been able to acknowledge the novelty of my 2 hidden digits.

    Yesterday in the morning I solved the problem of online verification that was bothering Paleoichneum for long. Isn’t it a new invention? Why not a single word of appreciation from anyone of my critics.

    Now the question, how my system would be any more effective than say...hologram security sticker?

    MacGyver1968, it is totally proven that my verification system completely stops counterfeit business. Bringing up subject of 2D barcodes or holograms is uncalled for. If you have any doubts about my system, read your post no. 116.

    Following posts explain how my system is better than existing systems combined.
    Please read these Posts 11, 13, 21, 22, 43, 52, 72, 81, 90, 106, 107, 110, 133, 136 and so on.Posts 34, 49, 80 by JoshuaL and 116 by MacGyver1968.

    You say, ‘It’s the reason large companies pay millions of dollars each year for their IT departments.’

    Why should I spend less on my central database? It is impractical to assume that SUNONPPC will bring me money in hundreds or thousands. Whenever it starts being accepted as real product protector by manufacturers, it will bring me money in millions of dollars and much more.
    MacGyver1968, you are computer expert. If you want to jump in, you are welcome.

    I will see that my system remains cheaper always because I want it to be.
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  44. #144  
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    MacGyver1968, it is totally proven that my verification system completely stops counterfeit business. Bringing up subject of 2D barcodes or holograms is uncalled for.
    It has not been proven. Your system needs to be implemented in order to claim that. You think that it will...but that's not same thing as it actually working in real life. Bringing up other forms of counterfeit protection is VERY relevant...to compare your proposed system with those already in use. If you system is more complicated, more expensive, and not any more effective, it should be discarded.

    I will see that my system remains cheaper always because I want it to be.
    Now you're just getting ridiculous. Just because you want something to be cheap, doesn't mean it will be. "I will see that I will always be young and attractive to females, because I want it to be"
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  45. #145  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    MacGyver1968, it is totally proven that my verification system completely stops counterfeit business. Bringing up subject of 2D barcodes or holograms is uncalled for.
    It has not been proven. Your system needs to be implemented in order to claim that. You think that it will...but that's not same thing as it actually working in real life. Bringing up other forms of counterfeit protection is VERY relevant...to compare your proposed system with those already in use. If you system is more complicated, more expensive, and not any more effective, it should be discarded.

    I will see that my system remains cheaper always because I want it to be.
    Now you're just getting ridiculous. Just because you want something to be cheap, doesn't mean it will be. "I will see that I will always be young and attractive to females, because I want it to be"

    When I claimed complete effectiveness of my system, I put every reason for its success. No one has reasoned my claims wrong yet.

    Raising doubt about my system’s effectiveness, without any supporting reason, mars the spirit of science forum and it’s of all important section ‘New hypotheses and Ideas.’

    I wish to keep my system cheap is not for selling it but it will be the only product protection system globally accepted.
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  46. #146  
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    Well, regardless of this system, here is breaking news story from the states:
    EDIT: here is a better description, replaced previous link
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/fda-says-1279-facilities-received-other-necc-products/2012/10/22/687ef4f0-1c7e-11e2-ad90-ba5920e56eb3_story.html

    A
    lso this one, which makes a point that " they had been given a drug that was not approved for safety, efficacy, potency or purity. And, in many cases, the doctors in these cases did not realize they were prescribing unapproved drugs." Echoing my claim: doctors are not scientists.
    http://www.bostonherald.com/news/opi...tainted_drugs/
    "The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is... doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting sh*t dead wrong."

    Take two of these and call me in the morning
    .
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    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm322734.htm
    Update on Fungal Meningitis FDA provides NECC Customer List
    NOTE: FDA has found some technical problems with the list and the data are incorrect. FDA is working to correct the list and will re-post when we are sure it is accurate.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Had they put some kind of retrievable identity like unique number on every vial, they would have been in position to identify each and every injection vial, wrongly filled on or after May 21, 2012.
    Now it is difficult to know all vials by manufacturing date because if as in India, NECC just prints month and year of manufacture.
    JoshuaL,
    It will not be irrelevant to put your whole post of 5th Oct. here.
    “I don't know about other products, but the idea has merit for medicine. The way this is different form a serial number is that each bottle would have a unique number, just like when you buy software (as someone already pointed out), but additionally you can not see the entirety of the unique number from the outside. Although, as someone else already pointed out, counterfeits need not use a genuine serial number. Might be enough to just look like a genuine number. HOWEVER, when it comes to counterfeit drugs, if there is a database you can confirm online or via phone, you will potentially be saving a life by taking a moment to verify the serial number. With the system Uday describes, you are guaranteed that number is in fact unique, as part of the number is hidden inside the package. (So even if the counterfeiter goes to the lengths of mimicking this design and puts part of the serial number in the inside, there is little chance that it will match a real number, which will be verified online/phone.) Counterfeit drugs are problem in the US and UK, but they are a much much bigger problem in other countries, where it may be harder to find and capture the perpetrator. Not sure if someone already shared the FDA page on the subject.
    EDIT:I see this kinda of thing as
    being used more by the doctor/clinic/pharmacy to do verification rather than the individual, but both would be good.”
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    [QUOTE=JoshuaL;361002]" Echoing my claim: doctors are not scientists[/QUOTE


    Doctor is doctor and scientist is scientist. So your claim has reasons which I would like to understand.
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  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    MacGyver1968, it is totally proven that my verification system completely stops counterfeit business. Bringing up subject of 2D barcodes or holograms is uncalled for.
    It has not been proven. Your system needs to be implemented in order to claim that. You think that it will...but that's not same thing as it actually working in real life. Bringing up other forms of counterfeit protection is VERY relevant...to compare your proposed system with those already in use. If you system is more complicated, more expensive, and not any more effective, it should be discarded.

    I will see that my system remains cheaper always because I want it to be.
    Now you're just getting ridiculous. Just because you want something to be cheap, doesn't mean it will be. "I will see that I will always be young and attractive to females, because I want it to be"

    When I claimed complete effectiveness of my system, I put every reason for its success. No one has reasoned my claims wrong yet.

    Raising doubt about my system’s effectiveness, without any supporting reason, mars the spirit of science forum and it’s of all important section ‘New hypotheses and Ideas.’

    I wish to keep my system cheap is not for selling it but it will be the only product protection system globally accepted.
    You hope your system is completely effective...but until it's tried, you don't know. Don't give me this bullshit about "mars the spirit of the science forum". That's what science is all about...backing up your claims with experimentation. You have yet to show how your system is any better or cheaper than systems already in place. Systems that were designed by the people who know their own industry. Knowledge that you admit you don't have. You have a pipe dream of being the "savior of the world" and that's it.

    You've yet to explain how your PPC is any different than existing packaging. You've yet to explain how your 20 digit code is any different than existing serial numbers. You've yet to explain how including 2 digits on a piece of paper inside the package increases security. You've yet to explain why your system is cheaper than others. How about starting with those?
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post

    You hope your system is completely effective...but until it's tried, you don't know. Don't give me this bullshit about "mars the spirit of the science forum". That's what science is all about...backing up your claims with experimentation. You have yet to show how your system is any better or cheaper than systems already in place. Systems that were designed by the people who know their own industry. Knowledge that you admit you don't have. You have a pipe dream of being the "savior of the world" and that's it.

    You've yet to explain how your PPC is any different than existing packaging. You've yet to explain how your 20 digit code is any different than existing serial numbers. You've yet to explain how including 2 digits on a piece of paper inside the package increases security. You've yet to explain why your system is cheaper than others. How about starting with those?

    Now that you have planted your explosive discovery or say new hypotheses on my thread, are you providing evidence on the same thread? I have no objection as long as you give it a separate name like “Yadav’s pipe dream of being the Savior of the world.”

    With no substantial evidence, moderator may seem your theses appropriate to throw in pseudoscience or trash. When it comes to that he will also come to know that my SUNONPPC is also become stagnant in lack of evidence in spite of 150 posts. Definitely, you succeeded in tying your idea’s fate with mine.

    If such single inventions like mine starts producing World Saviors, there would be population explosion of Saviors leading to birth control issue.

    I know there are a large number of dreamers who dream as if they are Savior of the world. But capturing the whole world in his hands, making the required changes in it accordingly and carrying the whole world to a new unimaginable height is what Savior is capable of. Do you see anyone of this caliber today? Do you think I am idiot enough to dream of this caliber (Avtar) by merely donating my earned money?

    On your question I am repeating the entire explanation why my system is entirely effective in a little while.
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  51. #151  
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    Im still curious what evidence you have that you will be able to implement your idea at a lower cost then the preexisting anti-copyright methods already being used. Saying you will keep the cost lower is not a sufficient explanation.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Im still curious what evidence you have that you will be able to implement your idea at a lower cost then the preexisting anti-copyright methods already being used. Saying you will keep the cost lower is not a sufficient explanation.

    Among the preexisting anti-copyright methods that you say, I know 2D barcodes, holograms, serial number printing and unique number printing. Authentication market is dominated by Holography because no competing print technology works on so many levels of security – Overt, Covert and Forensic.

    But all of them are (security) product manufacturers. Hence they cannot go on unless they have:

    1. Enough land. (on lease)
    2. Manufacturing unit. (on lease, rental)
    3. Management and production staff.
    4. Printing technology and verification technology where necessary.
    5. Raw material.
    6. Enough profit.

    After investing money to procure 1 to 5 requirements, they need enough profit as 6th requirement to carry on the business and develop it.

    When SUNONPPC will be implemented by the consumer goods manufacturers, manufacturers will already be having 1 to 5 of above requirements to print and paste SUNONPPC on their finished products. It will be an additional job of printing and pasting SUNONPPC as well additional profit that otherwise would have gone to product verification companies.

    If only one manufacturer implements SUNONPPC then verification of the same (Split Unique Number) will be done at his place. When many manufacturers adopt my system, I will build verification centre that will need,

    1. Enough land
    2. Office.
    3. Management and staff
    4. Verification technology
    5. Enough profit from material investment to run the centre.

    My profit will not come from above activities, so my system will be cheaper. As a result of SUNONPPC, there will be increase in sales of genuine products. Manufacturers will share the increased profit with me.
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  53. #153  
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    You CANT make that guarantee. You dont know what the other companies costs are. You dont know how many other companies already have the initial start up costs covered or did not have them at all. you are just saying things to make your assertion sound good with absolutely NO evidence at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You CANT make that guarantee. You dont know what the other companies costs are. You dont know how many other companies already have the initial start up costs covered or did not have them at all. you are just saying things to make your assertion sound good with absolutely NO evidence at all.

    My dear friends, why should I care for the survival struggle/strategies of those companies when I will be partnering with billionaire manufacturers?

    Actually keeping low price of my system is not my worry. Complete stoppage to counterfeiting was my motive. I invented an idea (few hidden digits) which manufacturers can implement and safeguard their patented products from duplication.

    When this happens, without caring for business strategies of existing verification companies, for keeping their price tag low or high, I will keep my system cheaper.

    In terms of money, business of product verification systems is very negligible and small when you compare it with real product manufacturing business that runs in billions. I will be sharing increased profits of every product manufacturer who uses my system. So keeping SUNONPPC system cheaper depends totally on my wish and not a little money it will cost me.

    Partnering with billionaires seems EVIDENT to me. Come with me and grow richer.
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    YOU WILL have costs and they WILL NOT be cheap. Show us the break down of your total $ costs compared to those of the comparable companies that already make safety devices. If you re going to make the claim, prove you have actually crunched the numbers.
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  56. #156  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    YOU WILL have costs and they WILL NOT be cheap. Show us the break down of your total $ costs compared to those of the comparable companies that already make safety devices. If you re going to make the claim, prove you have actually crunched the numbers.

    Do I have to fear the bottomless debt after my system’s implementation? But this seems unnatural as we have seen persons getting richer with their inventions.

    Your confidence has started to show holes in my money status. I am clueless about the costs. You seem to be an expert in economics. Will you help me in this?
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  57. #157  
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    Originally Posted by Paleoichneum .You've yet to explain how your 20 digit code is any different than existing serial numbers. You've yet to explain how including 2 digits on a piece of paper inside the package increases security. How about starting with those?[/QUOTE]


    Serial or unique number on the product (bottle) is claimed as one more hurdle (on and above seal & packaging) that will eat into counterfeiter’s profit and will make it less lucrative.
    Let’s see what will happen in India.

    It won’t stop counterfeit business but will need more precision. Counterfeiting is not possible without someone from supply chain helping it. So let us assume that one of the wholesalers is a counterfeiter.


    When in India, the genuine bottles will have serial/unique numbers on their them, our wholesaler will also have to number his counterfeit bottles. But if he applies same numbers to his counterfeits, some consumers are entitled to get few repeated numbers while confirmation. Thus manufacturer will know the counterfeiter as these numbers will be pointing their fingers towards his warehouse.


    Because when manufacturer will give serial/unique numbers to bottles, he will also make sure that the company’s computer also gives serial numbers to the boxes/cartons which contain numbered bottles.


    Computer will register with itself, which box contains which bottles. Thus when the boxes with their serial numbers reach the wholesalers, the company’s computer will have complete account of which wholesaler having which unique bottles. Thus the manufacturer becomes in-charge of every bottle that holds his precious liquor or product. Henceforth he will be supposed to successfully safeguard the path of his product’s journey until it reaches hands of genuine consumer.


    But does he succeed in it?


    NO.


    It is observed that only 10% consumers check product’s number. So 90% unchecked numbers remain intact on the empty containers. ( Survey by Sproxil, SecurePharma etc. medicine verification companies).


    So our counterfeiter wholesaler will not use the numbers arrived in his warehouse but will try to bribe employees of other wholesalers to get their numbers. If he didn’t get numbers from them, he will try to get them from rag pickers. Rag pickers are everywhere. Wherever there are consumers, there are rag pickers. Rag pickers will suddenly have new lucrative opportunity of collecting empty bottles with numbers. Rag pickers will be supplying more than enough numbers to all counterfeiters. Our wholesaler counterfeiter is at liberty to choose from rag pickers only numbers those are not related to genuine bottles in his warehouse. He will paste those numbers on his counterfeit bottles. Only 1 of his 10 counterfeits will have repeated number but only 1 from every 100 counterfeits will be repeated for confirmation. (Magic of 10% number checking).


    His counterfeit bottles will be absorbed in supply chain. In market, when sold, the repeated numbers of few counterfeits will point their fingers towards some other wholesalers. Honest vendors will be under pressure to complain to the authority to save them from false allegation of counterfeiting and to save their hard achieved reputation. So these wholesalers, supported by others including our wholesaler counterfeiter, will unite against this injustice and will abuse the incompetent numbering system which then would be scrapped or become ornamental as seal and packaging. There will be no evidence against our counterfeiter.


    My invention of SUNONPPC is the final solution.

    Split Unique Number On Product Protection Cover.


    When the products arrive with PPC in our counterfeiter wholesaler’s warehouse, he is at liberty to tear the PPC and acquire remaining 2 digits of 20 digit unique number. He can replace the torn PPC with new one. He can use these numbers on his counterfeits but then repeated numbers in market will point their fingers to his warehouse only and no other. He will have to close his business of counterfeiting as there won’t be complete numbers on the empty containers of rag pickers either.


    I am eager to hear your opinions.
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 28th, 2012 at 11:50 PM. Reason: gadbad Zala.
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  58. #158  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    MacGyver1968, it is totally proven that my verification system completely stops counterfeit business. Bringing up subject of 2D barcodes or holograms is uncalled for.
    It has not been proven. Your system needs to be implemented in order to claim that. You think that it will...but that's not same thing as it actually working in real life. Bringing up other forms of counterfeit protection is VERY relevant...to compare your proposed system with those already in use. If you system is more complicated, more expensive, and not any more effective, it should be discarded.

    I will see that my system remains cheaper always because I want it to be.
    Now you're just getting ridiculous. Just because you want something to be cheap, doesn't mean it will be. "I will see that I will always be young and attractive to females, because I want it to be"

    When I claimed complete effectiveness of my system, I put every reason for its success. No one has reasoned my claims wrong yet.

    Raising doubt about my system’s effectiveness, without any supporting reason, mars the spirit of science forum and it’s of all important section ‘New hypotheses and Ideas.’

    I wish to keep my system cheap is not for selling it but it will be the only product protection system globally accepted.
    You hope your system is completely effective...but until it's tried, you don't know. Don't give me this bullshit about "mars the spirit of the science forum". That's what science is all about...backing up your claims with experimentation. You have yet to show how your system is any better or cheaper than systems already in place. Systems that were designed by the people who know their own industry. Knowledge that you admit you don't have. You have a pipe dream of being the "savior of the world" and that's it.

    You've yet to explain how your PPC is any different than existing packaging. You've yet to explain how your 20 digit code is any different than existing serial numbers. You've yet to explain how including 2 digits on a piece of paper inside the package increases security. You've yet to explain why your system is cheaper than others. How about starting with those?

    Dear MacGyver1968,

    My above post (157) is for you because you asked me to start giving explanation regarding my claims.

    I have explained descriptively why serial numbers or unique numbers fall short of protecting genuine products. Whereas SUNONPPC succeeds in providing sufficient protection to each and every item until it reaches end user.

    Now I expect that you acknowledge the same. Please admit the effect of my system and help in its implementation where it is needed most.






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  59. #159  
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    Stop posting your opening sales pitch as a way to bump your threads up, please.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  60. #160  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    YOU WILL have costs and they WILL NOT be cheap. Show us the break down of your total $ costs compared to those of the comparable companies that already make safety devices. If you re going to make the claim, prove you have actually crunched the numbers.

    Do I have to fear the bottomless debt after my system’s implementation? But this seems unnatural as we have seen persons getting richer with their inventions.

    Your confidence has started to show holes in my money status. I am clueless about the costs. You seem to be an expert in economics. Will you help me in this?
    I am not anywhere near being an expert in economics, but I do know that the established companies have already dealt with the startup costs such as land and equipment purchase. You do not seem to have any funding acquired yet, so assertions of lower cost are spurious at best, and purposefully misleading very soon after.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  61. #161  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Stop posting your opening sales pitch as a way to bump your threads up, please.
    Pointing to the forum rule, you are acutely sensitive to the bumping up thread problem of an inventor.

    At the same time critics, running all over the board, who cannot make a single hole in his foolproof invention, are allowed to run away after throwing dirt on the subject or leaving the battle ground abruptly after cutting remarks aimed at making long lasting injury to inventor’s purpose.

    Isn’t this kind of wounding to inventor's purpose unethical? Why is it not mandatory here for critics to write a word of least possible praise after a well played debate?
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  62. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    YOU WILL have costs and they WILL NOT be cheap. Show us the break down of your total $ costs compared to those of the comparable companies that already make safety devices. If you re going to make the claim, prove you have actually crunched the numbers.

    Do I have to fear the bottomless debt after my system’s implementation? But this seems unnatural as we have seen persons getting richer with their inventions.

    Your confidence has started to show holes in my money status. I am clueless about the costs. You seem to be an expert in economics. Will you help me in this?
    I am not anywhere near being an expert in economics, but I do know that the established companies have already dealt with the startup costs such as land and equipment purchase. You do not seem to have any funding acquired yet, so assertions of lower cost are spurious at best, and purposefully misleading very soon after.

    I wish well if I propose low cost. I know you are not economist: your info says so. But that should not be the reason that you miss light sarcasm. As an American citizen you should have acknowledged first of all that intellectual property that I hold in SUNONPPC, is to be considered far more important monetarily than any land and equipment purchase and as a holder of such invaluable IP, my wish is more valuable than most finance players'.
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  63. #163  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Stop posting your opening sales pitch as a way to bump your threads up, please.
    Pointing to the forum rule, you are acutely sensitive to the bumping up thread problem of an inventor.

    At the same time critics, running all over the board, who cannot make a single hole in his foolproof invention, are allowed to run away after throwing dirt on the subject or leaving the battle ground abruptly after cutting remarks aimed at making long lasting injury to inventor’s purpose.

    Oh...FFS...Now your just acting like a nut. If you think we are giving you a hard time...just wait for the people who will actually be paying money for this system. One reason for the hard time are your unsubstantiated claims...using terms like "foolproof" or claiming your system will be cheaper...even though you have no idea what it will actually cost...or what other systems cost.

    Isn’t this kind of wounding to inventor's purpose unethical? Why is it not mandatory here for critics to write a word of least possible praise after a well played debate?
    Are you kidding me? Why should forum management force me to say anything...and if they did, I would promptly tell them to go fornicate themselves. "Wounding to a inventor's purpose", FFS...someone call the Waahhmbulance. If all you want is praise for you idea...then ask you mother.

    You still haven't answered my questions. How is adding 2 numbers inside the packaging more secure? How is the PPC any different than conventional packaging?
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  64. #164  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Stop posting your opening sales pitch as a way to bump your threads up, please.
    Pointing to the forum rule, you are acutely sensitive to the bumping up thread problem of an inventor.

    At the same time critics, running all over the board, who cannot make a single hole in his foolproof invention, are allowed to run away after throwing dirt on the subject or leaving the battle ground abruptly after cutting remarks aimed at making long lasting injury to inventor’s purpose.

    Oh...FFS...Now your just acting like a nut. If you think we are giving you a hard time...just wait for the people who will actually be paying money for this system. One reason for the hard time are your unsubstantiated claims...using terms like "foolproof" or claiming your system will be cheaper...even though you have no idea what it will actually cost...or what other systems cost.

    Isn’t this kind of wounding to inventor's purpose unethical? Why is it not mandatory here for critics to write a word of least possible praise after a well played debate?
    Are you kidding me? Why should forum management force me to say anything...and if they did, I would promptly tell them to go fornicate themselves. "Wounding to a inventor's purpose", FFS...someone call the Waahhmbulance. If all you want is praise for you idea...then ask you mother.

    You still haven't answered my questions. How is adding 2 numbers inside the packaging more secure? How is the PPC any different than conventional packaging?

    Writing ...FFS.... is not necessary. I understand you.

    As you are repeatedly questioning purpose of 2 numbers, I think I have failed in explaining the same correctly. Or the idea is not bright enough. Let me try again. I am ready to accept my mistake if any in that. Please bring it to my notice.

    Serial/ unique numbers printed on packaging or bottles in their complete order may be available for misuse.

    Two digits removed from the complete unique number and kept at some other place makes the difference. This is what I think.

    Once the last two digits are taken out after tearing the packaging, they cease to remain related to the 18 digits of 20 digit unique number printed on that particular packaging. The end user has to use these two digits along with 18 digits printed on the package for verification or he may save them to use afterwards. These two digits once out of packaging lose their reliability to counterfeiters as an indivisible part of that particular bottle’s 20 digit unique number like until they are inside the packaging.

    Very few people know that I can wait for decades when it comes to praise.It is more than 14 years I have been inventing and discovering important ideas useful to all. They have piled up but I cannot discuss them with mother as they are not welcomed yet by others. I only hope she lives to see the effect.
    Last edited by uday yadav; October 30th, 2012 at 10:46 AM. Reason: 14 years.
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  65. #165  
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    HOW are the full numbers "available for misuse"? I have yet to get a good answer as to what this means.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  66. #166  
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    If you have to tear open the package to get the whole number...how can retailers check their products, to ensure they aren't selling fake goods?
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  67. #167  
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    You have claimed your system is foolproof...but the numbers have to be stored on a computer. What happens when a 13 year old script kiddie hacks your system, and downloads all of the authentic numbers and posts them on the internet? Your system becomes worthless then. Even if they are encrypted, that doesn't provide 100% protection as encryptions can be broken...and please don't say "well my systems can't get hacked" because some of the most secure systems in the world have been hacked...the FBI, CIA, the Whitehouse, Wall Street...etc.

    Another question: How does your system tell the difference between an illegitimate duplicated code, and a legitimate code that's being checked more than one time? Products that are prone to counterfeiting are generally expensive and of good quality. If someone buys a Gucci purse, and carries it around for a couple months, then decides to sell it on Ebay, and includes the 20 digit code, so the new owner can be insured that it's genuine, how would you system be able to tell the difference between that code, and a duplicate code that was hacked from the system?
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; October 30th, 2012 at 03:10 PM.
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  68. #168  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    HOW are the full numbers "available for misuse"? I have yet to get a good answer as to what this means.

    Your statement suggests that you have read my posts (76, 81 and 157) and yet I have failed to provide satisfactory answer to you about the vulnerability of full or complete unique numbers.

    So I try to approach this problem little differently though there seems little scope for that.

    Sproxil and PharmaSecure are two Product Verification Companies, who at present are giving unique numbers to vials and medicine strips in India, and some African countries. They observed that 10% consumers verify the unique numbers printed on medicines using mobile SMS service.

    Secondly let us suppose that counterfeiting is happening at 20% rate and vials are having complete unique numbers apparent on them.

    According to above observations when retailer in India sells 1000 genuine vials, 100 vials are verified. When emptied vials are collected by rag pickers, among every batch of 100 empty vials there are 10 verified vials. So when counterfeiter buys 200 vials from rag picker for 20% counterfeiting, he has 180 unverified vials which are safe to use but let us see what happens to remaining 20 vials that are once verified.

    He refills them and sends them to retailer. Retailer sells 200 counterfeit vials to 200 consumers.

    Out of 200 consumers, 180 consumers don’t verify the vial numbers. Only 20 consumers verify the vial numbers.

    Out of these 20 numbers, 18 numbers are unverified so 18 consumers who have in reality bought counterfeit vials, receives GENUINE message via SMS.

    Remaining 2 consumers receive NOT OK message.

    CONCLUSION:- when unique numbers remain apparent on vials in their complete/ full form, out of every batch of 200 counterfeit vials, 2 vials can be detected.



    When vials are uniquely numbered by my SUNONPPC, 2 digits get discarded along with tearing strip and 18 digit number remain apparent but incomplete on the vial. Even if rag picker collects them and even if counterfeiter uses 200 such vials for counterfeiting, all 20 verification enquiries will receive NOT OK message.

    Thus full numbers are 10 times less effective than incomplete numbers.

    If wholesaler turns counterfeiter what makes him close his business is explained in post 157.
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  69. #169  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    If you have to tear open the package to get the whole number...how can retailers check their products, to ensure they aren't selling fake goods?

    18 digits apparent on vial are far more sufficient to retailers for smooth working. If counterfeiter tries his luck with SUNONPPC, it will be 10 times more difficult than complete apparent unique numbers. Running fake business will not remain profitable but mostly punishable.
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  70. #170  
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    Counterfeiters DONT CARE about the numbers themselves. They only put in enough effort to make the number look authentic, they don't actively seek out numbers that are already in circulation as it were. Why do you assume they do? your premise is faulty.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  71. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Counterfeiters DONT CARE about the numbers themselves. They only put in enough effort to make the number look authentic, they don't actively seek out numbers that are already in circulation as it were. Why do you assume they do? your premise is faulty.
    True. I just used a hypothetical situation, where you're dealing with a criminal that takes pride in his work. Like the guy in "Breaking Bad" that cooks the best meth ever.
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    If you have to tear open the package to get the whole number...how can retailers check their products, to ensure they aren't selling fake goods?

    18 digits apparent on vial are far more sufficient to retailers for smooth working. If counterfeiter tries his luck with SUNONPPC, it will be 10 times more difficult than complete apparent unique numbers. Running fake business will not remain profitable but mostly punishable.
    Wait...so now your saying you only need the 18 numbers on the outside of the package to recieve verification? If that is the case, what purpose does the 2 additional numbers inside the package serve?

    So far, all of my responses have been regarding product protection of consumer goods, not drugs...but lets talk about drugs for a second, as I'm foggy how your system would work. Pharmacies buy large, bulk bottles of drugs. The customer comes in with their doctor's prescription, and the pharmacist takes the big bottle off the shelf, and pours out a small portion onto a tray, and counts out the proper number of pills according to the prescription. The pills are then poured into a generic prescription bottle. The pharmacists then prints out a label, with all of the important information, like the patients name, the type of drug, dosing instructions, etc. and applies the label to the generic bottle.

    Where does the code come in? Does the pharmacist take the 20 digit code off the big bottle, and add it to the label of the small generic bottle? Since most of the big bottles may fill 100 or more individual prescriptions...will they all have the same code? How does you system handle multiple call-ins of the same number? What if the pharmacist, rather than the vendor is the criminal, and just re-uses a legit code on fake pills?

    [old joke] ...and how does the pharmacist fit the bottle in the typewriter? [/old joke]
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 1st, 2012 at 07:17 AM.
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  73. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Counterfeiters DONT CARE about the numbers themselves. They only put in enough effort to make the number look authentic, they don't actively seek out numbers that are already in circulation as it were. Why do you assume they do? your premise is faulty.

    Authentic looking labels, authentic looking 2Dbarcodes and holograms are useful for counterfeiting.

    Numbers in group or single, though can be made to look authentic, in addition, they represent certain numerical value. All mobile numbers are authentic looking until and unless dialed for contacting someone special.

    Each and every unique number printed by manufacturer’s vials are not only authentic looking but can be confirmed by SMS/Online. Even if only 10% consumers verify the numbers, all of them are confirmed by manufacturer’s computer.

    If counterfeiter gives authentic looking numbers (don’t know what does this mean without their numerical value), genuine manufacturer’s computer will not confirm any of these numbers. If out of every 100 authentic but counterfeit numbers 10 numbers are rejected, and are recorded by SMS as evidence then this type of crime will not remain undetected in any country for long.

    Will you please explain what is authentic looking digits/numbers? And how that helps counterfeiter carry on his business?
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  74. #174  
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    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
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  75. #175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Counterfeiters DONT CARE about the numbers themselves. They only put in enough effort to make the number look authentic, they don't actively seek out numbers that are already in circulation as it were. Why do you assume they do? your premise is faulty.

    Authentic looking labels, authentic looking 2Dbarcodes and holograms are useful for counterfeiting.

    Numbers in group or single, though can be made to look authentic, in addition, they represent certain numerical value. All mobile numbers are authentic looking until and unless dialed for contacting someone special.

    Each and every unique number printed by manufacturer’s vials are not only authentic looking but can be confirmed by SMS/Online. Even if only 10% consumers verify the numbers, all of them are confirmed by manufacturer’s computer.

    If counterfeiter gives authentic looking numbers (don’t know what does this mean without their numerical value), genuine manufacturer’s computer will not confirm any of these numbers. If out of every 100 authentic but counterfeit numbers 10 numbers are rejected, and are recorded by SMS as evidence then this type of crime will not remain undetected in any country for long.

    Will you please explain what is authentic looking digits/numbers? And how that helps counterfeiter carry on his business?
    I'll answer for Pal, since I'm up early. There is a magazine called "Good Housekeeping". They give their approval to certain quality products, and in return, that product can display the "Good Housekeeping seal of approval" on their label and in their advertising. Customers see the seal, and know that this is a good product. Let's assume your system becomes standard. A counterfeiter could just uses any old 18 digit number, and the SUNONPPC logo on their packaging, and some customers would just see the code and logo, and assume the product is legit, without actually calling it to verify it.
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  76. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    If you have to tear open the package to get the whole number...how can retailers check their products, to ensure they aren't selling fake goods?

    18 digits apparent on vial are far more sufficient to retailers for smooth working. If counterfeiter tries his luck with SUNONPPC, it will be 10 times more difficult than complete apparent unique numbers. Running fake business will not remain profitable but mostly punishable.
    Wait...so now your saying you only need the 18 numbers on the outside of the package to recieve verification? If that is the case, what purpose does the 2 additional numbers inside the package serve?

    So far, all of my responses have been regarding product protection of consumer goods, not drugs...but lets talk about drugs for a second, as I'm foggy how your system would work. Pharmacies buy large, bulk bottles of drugs. The customer comes in with their doctor's prescription, and the pharmacist takes the big bottle off the shelf, and pours out a small portion onto a tray, and counts out the proper number of pills according to the prescription. The pills are then poured into a generic prescription bottle. The pharmacists then prints out a label, with all of the important information, like the patients name, the type of drug, dosing instructions, etc. and applies the label to the generic bottle.

    Where does the code come in? Does the pharmacist take the 20 digit code off the big bottle, and add it to the label of the small generic bottle? Since most of the big bottles may fill 100 or more individual prescriptions...will they all have the same code? How does you system handle multiple call-ins of the same number? What if the pharmacist, rather than the vendor is the criminal, and just re-uses a legit code on fake pills?

    [old joke] ...and how does the pharmacist fit the bottle in the typewriter? [/old joke]

    I am surprised. Why could not you understand the importance of incomplete number (2 hidden digits) in spite of my laborious explanation in last post (168)?

    I have planned to offer my idea to medicine producers free of charge as first step of its implementation. Secondly it will be used by liquor manufacturers with appropriate charges. Spare parts will come last as they involve mechanic or some expert in between product and end user.

    Thank you for bringing up the subject of pharmacists. In India, this is not the case. Doctors have their dispensaries where they or their compounders prepare the mixtures of medicines, pour them in bottles, paste paper of doses on them and give them to patients. Mostly when they don’t have certain medicines they write the prescription that patient takes to medical store and buys the medicine.

    In your case of pharmacist, he is my end user who receives drugs in bulk. My system will give him genuine medicine but if he plans to use fake generic drugs instead, my system cannot help.

    My system works with products which have brand name and individual packaging.
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  77. #177  
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    If the 2 extra digits are not needed for verification...then they are superfluous, and unnecessary.

    I thought the whole point of the drug verification system was to give confidence to the consumer that actually takes the medication that the drugs are real? Your system doesn't do that. Since almost all prescription drugs in the US don't come in their original factory packaging, it's pointless here. I'd like to hear from others in other countries on how their prescription drugs are dispensed.
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  78. #178  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Counterfeiters DONT CARE about the numbers themselves. They only put in enough effort to make the number look authentic, they don't actively seek out numbers that are already in circulation as it were. Why do you assume they do? your premise is faulty.

    Authentic looking labels, authentic looking 2Dbarcodes and holograms are useful for counterfeiting.

    Numbers in group or single, though can be made to look authentic, in addition, they represent certain numerical value. All mobile numbers are authentic looking until and unless dialed for contacting someone special.

    Each and every unique number printed by manufacturer’s vials are not only authentic looking but can be confirmed by SMS/Online. Even if only 10% consumers verify the numbers, all of them are confirmed by manufacturer’s computer.

    If counterfeiter gives authentic looking numbers (don’t know what does this mean without their numerical value), genuine manufacturer’s computer will not confirm any of these numbers. If out of every 100 authentic but counterfeit numbers 10 numbers are rejected, and are recorded by SMS as evidence then this type of crime will not remain undetected in any country for long.

    Will you please explain what is authentic looking digits/numbers? And how that helps counterfeiter carry on his business?
    I'll answer for Pal, since I'm up early. There is a magazine called "Good Housekeeping". They give their approval to certain quality products, and in return, that product can display the "Good Housekeeping seal of approval" on their label and in their advertising. Customers see the seal, and know that this is a good product. Let's assume your system becomes standard. A counterfeiter could just uses any old 18 digit number, and the SUNONPPC logo on their packaging, and some customers would just see the code and logo, and assume the product is legit, without actually calling it to verify it.
    Not some customers. Out of 100, 90 customers will not care to give second glance to SUNONPPC on the seal. They will not just check the number. They will tear the PPC strip and throw it away.

    Only 10 careful customers will tear the PPC strip, scratch the 2 digit number, contact online/SMS and send the whole 20 digit unique number for confirmation.

    Count of collective number of complaints, accumulated in the central data base to act upon per day is quite a force to destroy counterfeiting in any country.
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  79. #179  
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    Two digits make the number complete. That is why they are most important. Without them consumer cannot verify the quality of the product.
    PLEASE TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE NECESSITY OF 2 DIGITS IN VERIFICATION. IT IS NOT DIFFICULT.
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  80. #180  
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    There are readers here at present. They may be laughing at your attack on my two digits.
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  81. #181  
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    It's not an attack..I'm asking legitimate questions about your system. If you see it as an attack...that's your business...and have too thin of a skin. I asked you how retailers could verify their products without having to rip open the package....you replied that they could just call in the 18 digit code on the outside. If that is the case, the 2 numbers on the inside are pointless.

    I told you earlier...iron sharpens iron. If you can't handle tough questions from a computer tech in Texas...how will you be able to answer the tough questions the people who buy your system ask?

    You never did answer my questions about how your system handles multiple call-ins on the same number, or what happens if your system is hacked.
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 1st, 2012 at 08:59 AM.
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  82. #182  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    It's not an attack..I'm asking legitimate questions about your system. If you see it as an attack...that's your business...and have too thin of a skin. I asked you how retailers could verify their products without having to rip open the package....you replied that they could just call in the 18 digit code on the outside. If that is the case, the 2 numbers on the inside are pointless.

    I told you earlier...iron sharpens iron. If you can't handle tough questions from a computer tech in Texas...how will you be able to answer the tough questions the people who buy your system ask?

    You never did answer my questions about how your system handles multiple call-ins on the same number, or what happens if your system is hacked.

    These words bring smell of nice person. Excuse me the word attack.

    I don’t burden retailers with every vial’s identity. I said smooth working. I meant retailers buy in bulk from wholesaler. Apparent 18 digits numbers arrived with vials in bulk are from the carton that is serially numbered. Manufacturer knows which serial numbered carton has which unique numbered vials and has reached which wholesaler. This much precaution on manufacturer’s part frees the retailer from verifying every vial. It is not necessary.

    Retailer is not allowed to call in 18 numbers. Only buyer or one on his behalf can call for verification.

    If there is no inquiry of repeat numbers, then the system is as good as failed. If someone plays mischief with repeat numbers, he is also to be punished. So after enquiry if one is found mischievously calling for same numbers, further genuine enquiries from his mobile number or email will not be answered as a punishment.

    I always remember nice words. They are easy and lovable to remember. YES. I remember,’ Iron sharpens iron.’
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  83. #183  
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    Maybe there is a language barrier, because much of what you wrote I don't understand. This system is supposed to be used for all different types of products. It should be able to be utilized by wholesalers, retailers and customers alike. If I'm a liquor store owner, and I buy 5 $500 bottles of scotch, and want to authenticate them before I sell them to my customers, I shouldn't have to rip open the package to do so...rendering the bottles unsellable. Even opening one bottle would mean a loss. Your system fails in this.

    If I'm a customer of a pharmacy, and I want to verify my prescription, your system fail in this also. Even though you claim it will completely stop counterfeit medication, as the thread title says.

    You're system also fails for products that might be re-sold...like Rolex watches. Only the initial customer could call for verification. This is why one system can't possibly work for all products. There is too much variation in the needs of each product. That's why existing protection measures are designed by people on the inside of the industry, that specifically address the needs of that industry. What works for one (like secret hallmarks inside of a watch) may not work or be needed for another. (a bottle of booze only gets sold once).
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    About hacking. Just few days ago my system was only for SMS by mobile. But according to Paleoichneum, SMS system is backdated idea and would not be welcomed in America. So I proposed one communication system to him by which online verification will become possible without fear of hacking.


    There will be one central 18 digit database to all manufacturers. Manufacturers will send only 18 digit info here.

    Following steps will protect manufacturer's computer from hacking.

    One. Consumer will online send 20 digit number of his bottle to central database.

    Two. Central database will send it to manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits, via phone line (SMS).

    Three. Manufacturing unit/computer will receive 20 digit number, check it and send the required information concerning

    that bottle back to central database via phone line SMS.

    Four. Central database will send that info to the consumer online.

    This way I hope we will be able to keep hackers away from manufacturer's computer.


    I seek advice from computer tech the great, from Texas.

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  85. #185  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  86. #186  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    About hacking. Just few days ago my system was only for SMS by mobile. But according to Paleoichneum, SMS system is backdated idea and would not be welcomed in America. So I proposed one communication system to him by which online verification will become possible without fear of hacking.


    There will be one central 18 digit database to all manufacturers. Manufacturers will send only 18 digit info here.

    Following steps will protect manufacturer's computer from hacking.

    One. Consumer will online send 20 digit number of his bottle to central database.

    Two. Central database will send it to manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits, via phone line (SMS).

    Three. Manufacturing unit/computer will receive 20 digit number, check it and send the required information concerning

    that bottle back to central database via phone line SMS.

    Four. Central database will send that info to the consumer online.

    This way I hope we will be able to keep hackers away from manufacturer's computer.


    I seek advice from computer tech the great, from Texas.


    This makes no sense whatsoever. It's a rube goldberg system that is unnecessarily complex. This is why you should leave the design of such things to the experts. I'm not a network security engineer...so I can't tell you. Even if your system was only SMS, the numbers would still need to be stored on a server that's connected to a network. ANY server that is attached to a outside network is prone to hacking.

    I've never played, or even seen a game of Cricket. I am completely clueless about the rules, strategy or anything. This is the reason I don't try to design cricket equipment...or defense strategies for a game I've never seen played.
    Last edited by MacGyver1968; November 1st, 2012 at 01:23 PM.
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  87. #187  
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    I take pains to construct every sentence so I request you to not hurry with my post.

    Today retailers buy from unknown sources because they don’t worry about the boomerang. There is no verification system working today. Once manufacturers paste SUNONPPC on the bottle seal, retailers will be compelled to buy from legitimate source and will not worry because if the bottle is fake, wholesaler will be responsible.

    If pharmacy sells its medicine without name and without separate packaging, it cannot apply SUNONPPC. Customers of a pharmacy have to do without my system. Though I named it complete protection, it is exclusively complete for branded and separately packaged medicine.
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  88. #188  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.
    If counterfeiters don't seek valid numbers, what will happen when 10% consumers will dial their numbers for verification?
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  89. #189  
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    Today retailers buy from unknown sources because they don’t worry about the boomerang.
    Please provide the source of this information. It's certainly not true from my own professional experience.
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  90. #190  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    About hacking. Just few days ago my system was only for SMS by mobile. But according to Paleoichneum, SMS system is backdated idea and would not be welcomed in America. So I proposed one communication system to him by which online verification will become possible without fear of hacking.


    There will be one central 18 digit database to all manufacturers. Manufacturers will send only 18 digit info here.

    Following steps will protect manufacturer's computer from hacking.

    One. Consumer will online send 20 digit number of his bottle to central database.

    Two. Central database will send it to manufacturing unit, identified by 7 digits, via phone line (SMS).

    Three. Manufacturing unit/computer will receive 20 digit number, check it and send the required information concerning

    that bottle back to central database via phone line SMS.

    Four. Central database will send that info to the consumer online.

    This way I hope we will be able to keep hackers away from manufacturer's computer.


    I seek advice from computer tech the great, from Texas.


    This makes no sense whatsoever. It's a rube goldberg system that is unnecessarily complex. This is why you should leave the design of such things to the experts. I'm not a network security engineer...so I can't tell you. Even if your system was only SMS, the numbers would still need to be stored on a server that's connected to a network. ANY server that is attached to a outside network is prone to hacking.

    I've never played, or even seen a game of Cricket. I am completely clueless about the rules, strategy or anything. This is the reason I don't try to design cricket equipment...or defense strategies for a game I've never seen played.

    If SMS system also is unsafe then my system is most workable compared to systems being used by CIA, FBI or any intelligence services.


    Hackers will be able to hack one manufacturer's computer at a time. They cannot hack them all at one time thru central database.
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  91. #191  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Today retailers buy from unknown sources because they don’t worry about the boomerang.
    Please provide the source of this information. It's certainly not true from my own professional experience.
    It is related to your buying 5 expensive liquor bottles from someone. if you are buying from the wholesaler you don't have to worry about quality. they have to be genuine else wholesaler will face the consequences.
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  92. #192  
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    Many a times bright ideas are born out of outsider's brains.
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  93. #193  
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    Hackers don't need to hack all the numbers...just the ones from the products they are going to sell to the counterfieters...assuming there are counterfieters out there who actually want to put real numbers on their counterfiets. As Pal pointed out, most would not. You just used the term "foolproof" to describe your system. I just wanted to show you that it's not. No system is.

    Do you understand why I brought up the cricket analogy? If you're a player or coach of a cricket team...would you take strategy advise from someone who's never even seen a game of cricket? Of course not...you would laugh at them. In the same way....manufacturers aren't going to be too interested in computer system that was designed by someone who knows nothing of server technology or security.
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  94. #194  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Today retailers buy from unknown sources because they don’t worry about the boomerang.
    Please provide the source of this information. It's certainly not true from my own professional experience.
    It is related to your buying 5 expensive liquor bottles from someone. if you are buying from the wholesaler you don't have to worry about quality. they have to be genuine else wholesaler will face the consequences.

    You ducked the question. Please provide the source of your statement above. If it's just your opinion...then say so.

    You're the one that brought up liquor..if the retailer can't check..then what's the purpose? The end user of a $500 bottle of scotch doesn't need a number to tell if it's genuine...their nose and tongue will tell them that. The retailer that can't taste it needs the number.
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  95. #195  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.
    If counterfeiters don't seek valid numbers, what will happen when 10% consumers will dial their numbers for verification?
    Some counterfeiters get caught, the 10% of the product that is actually fake is taken out of circulation. They know the risk.

    Now I will ask again, show the empirical data which shows counterfeiters seek out and use valid numbers.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  96. #196  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.

    Empirical data: Use of unique numbers on products, though is old concept, manufacturers didn’t try it yet for their own reasons. Prepaid mobile recharge cards carry unique numbers and the idea is 100% successful. Because until the customer doesn’t scratch the card and send the unique number on it for verification, his mobile is not given the talk time purchased with card. So every card purchased is scratched and verified.

    Sproxil and PharmaSecure are two verification companies that supply unique number verification SMS system in India and some African countries.

    According to their information that is based on their practical observation, 10% of medicine strips which are printed unique numbers on, are verified by consumers after purchase.

    There is no more empirical data than this that I have.

    Here we are discussing what will happen when numbering systems come into existence. You say the system is already in place (verification of numbers). I would like to know where and then I will collect the empirical data from there and will post it here for you.
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  97. #197  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.
    If counterfeiters don't seek valid numbers, what will happen when 10% consumers will dial their numbers for verification?
    Some counterfeiters get caught, the 10% of the product that is actually fake is taken out of circulation. They know the risk.

    Now I will ask again, show the empirical data which shows counterfeiters seek out and use valid numbers.

    When 10% consumers will verify the products, then every counterfeiter will be caught every time he sends his fakes in market. Thus all the time their products have to be out of circulation. How can they use the supply chain once products start coming with SONONPPC on them?

    I again request you to understand difference between aauthentic looking labels, authentic looking 2Dbarcodes, holograms and unique numbers
    All labels, barcodes and holograms are identical. Unique numbers are never identical, they differ in value.
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  98. #198  
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    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Paleoichneum,
    Your post 74, of 4 oct. had brought forward same objection.
    To which JoshuaL has posted (80, 5 Oct.) his answer that should have cleared your doubt.
    No, actually post 80 does not address the problem I bring up. The system you are describing is already in place (verification of numbers) . You are going on the false hope that most counterfeiters are actively seeking valid numbers. Show me the empirical data that this is happening.
    If counterfeiters don't seek valid numbers, what will happen when 10% consumers will dial their numbers for verification?
    Some counterfeiters get caught, the 10% of the product that is actually fake is taken out of circulation. They know the risk.

    Now I will ask again, show the empirical data which shows counterfeiters seek out and use valid numbers.

    When 10% consumers will verify the products, then every counterfeiter will be caught every time he sends his fakes in market. Thus all the time their products have to be out of circulation. How can they use the supply chain once products start coming with SONONPPC on them?

    I again request you to understand difference between aauthentic looking labels, authentic looking 2Dbarcodes, holograms and unique numbers
    All labels, barcodes and holograms are identical. Unique numbers are never identical, they differ in value.
    Who says the counterfeiter will be caught??? Most of the time they probably are NOT caught.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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  99. #199  
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    Originally Posted by Paleoichneum.
    Who says the counterfeiter will be caught??? Most of the time they probably are NOT caught.[/QUOTE]


    Palaeontology, Mineralogy, Vulcanology, geology, entomology, Photography.

    Doesn’t any of above subjects require minimum basic knowledge of mathematics?

    Paleoichneum, let us skip calculations and start again. There are careless consumers and careful consumers. Careless consumers don’t check the numbers. Only careful consumers check numbers printed on bottle via SMS or ONLINE.

    Whenever careful consumer contacts the manufacturer, his mobile number or email ID gets registered in central database. If careful consumer sends wrong number, he is to be contacted via mobile or online only and asked from which retailer he purchased the bottle. The retailer is to answer the source of his purchase of that bottle and how many bottles he purchased along with it. Then the concerned wholesaler is required to justify how he came in possession of the bottles which don’t have manufacturer’s unique numbers.

    Above sequence of actions are going to take place whenever counterfeiter’s bottle is purchased by careful consumer.

    Will counterfeit skip every enquiry that starts with careful consumer’s purchase?
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  100. #200  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by uday yadav View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968 View Post
    Today retailers buy from unknown sources because they don’t worry about the boomerang.
    Please provide the source of this information. It's certainly not true from my own professional experience.
    It is related to your buying 5 expensive liquor bottles from someone. if you are buying from the wholesaler you don't have to worry about quality. they have to be genuine else wholesaler will face the consequences.

    You ducked the question. Please provide the source of your statement above. If it's just your opinion...then say so.

    You're the one that brought up liquor..if the retailer can't check..then what's the purpose? The end user of a $500 bottle of scotch doesn't need a number to tell if it's genuine...their nose and tongue will tell them that. The retailer that can't taste it needs the number.

    I didn’t duck the question. But there are sites providing enough evidence about retailers and wholesalers purchasing goods from unknown sources for more profits in US.

    As you are devoted to your job and wholeheartedly concerned about what you provide your customers with, you must look into following article by “Association For Consumer Research.”

    http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-conference-proceedings.aspx?Id=6411

    following site give data about online fake medicines.

    http://www.fda.gov/forconsumers/consumerupdates/ucm048396.htm

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm170594.htm
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