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Thread: thought experiment # one.... proving self awareness

  1. #1 thought experiment # one.... proving self awareness 
    Forum Sophomore REV ROSWELL's Avatar
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    Thought experiment # one or proving self awareness


    You are talking (on a telephone, no not a camera phone....) to either a person or the super super deep blue zillion terabyte computer that can mimic every human trait.

    Its name is brainstorm

    Sadly brainstorm is not conscious or self aware! THE question is.... How can you determine if you are talking to the computer or the person, if both are trying to deceive you? Is self awareness provable Yes, no, how?

    [/color]

    : { >[/b]



    Ps...I don't think self awareness is possible to prove. Yes, I am aware but how can I be sure you are? Sounds silly until you try to prove that someone is self aware with 100% accuracy.


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    Maybe trying to provoke on the person/computer some feeling such as fear... (threatening or so) it must have some characteristic reaction, that wouldn't be normal if it hadn't self-awareness.


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    Maybe trying to provoke on the person/computer some feeling such as fear... (threatening or so) it must have some characteristic reaction, that wouldn't be normal if it hadn't self-awareness.
    Its interesting thought, Data, the droid' in startrek the next generation, does not have emotions and cannot use some phrases. However for this experiment brainstorm can mimic all emotions and human traits.

    The reason that I am applying these criteria to this thought experiment (as Einstein called his musings) is that It occurred to me while thinking about the nature of self, self awareness could not be ultimately proven for anyone but the one thinking about it. This is silly, I thought, but upon more reflection it has become a bit profound!

    Something along these lines would make a damn good SF short story or novel. Like an entire universe is in the dreamworld of an abducted human that has snached been by ET....whatever...
    BTW thank you for your interesting reply...[/color][/b]
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    Quote Originally Posted by REV ROSWELL
    self awareness could not be ultimately proven for anyone but the one thinking about it.
    How can you prove your own self awareness? Will I believe your proof? If you only prove it to yourself is it really proof?

    Like an entire universe is in the dreamworld of an abducted human that has snached been by ET....whatever...
    Aliens are cooool.
    If you were in a dream world would you really be self aware? Or just aware of your dream self.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    I don't think even human beings are even completely aware of our existence, just to some level...

    Has anyone seen the movie "Pi (faith in chaos)" ????
    It makes an interesting point on self-awareness when seeking the "number of god" as the clue for life and the universe itself; the computer some mathematician used to calculate this number's digits went crazy as it got closer to the answer (so did the mathematician)... because knowing this number implied being aware of everything.

    I guess something like that would happen if we became completely aware of our existence


    (Ignorance is a bliss... but is still ignorance).
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  7. #6 AHHHHH K 
    Forum Sophomore REV ROSWELL's Avatar
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    How can you prove your own self awareness? Will I believe your proof? If you only prove it to yourself is it really proof?
    Well a very good question. I know me. I know that I am aware. But your questions has some very profound implicatioins and I LIKE it!

    But for this experiment the control is me. My self-awareness and therefore my reality is the only reality. I suspect that this is the nature of the universe!

    However all sentient beings are causally connected by quantum entanglement and variations of Quantum mechanical processes. Of course this is speculation on my part. The causal local connection is necessary to interact with other conscious beings. This also explains why although self is an illusion, the inorganic universe is real and not a construct of our brain.

    Ahhh k?
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  8. #7 therefore thier real world (no not MTV) IS the dream world 
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    If you were in a dream world would you really be self aware? Or just aware of your dream self.

    If I were writing the book and the aliens had the ET napped' person in a controlled coma, in REM sleep, I would write it with the abductee' not knowing that he/she was in a dream, therefore their real world (no not MTV) IS the dream world ...

    Maybe I would write that their dreams were effecting OUR reality...or or ahhh ...

    ummm...

    Maybe I would have him/her dream their own "real" reality, like witnessing their own abduction!

    .....yeah ...cool huh...and maybe while dreaming they somehow connect with another dreaming abductee' VIA LSD , meditation or a religious experience .... '


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    When you say "the inorganic universe" are you talking about the quantum level of things?
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  10. #9 sacrifice tenured credibility to the zombies of truth... 
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    When you say "the inorganic universe" are you talking about the quantum level of things?
    I should have clarified that term because..well its my term...heh...how embarrassing!

    ...Sorry. Inorganic universe = the planets stars anything not alive (even if it has carbon in it) I feel that we are all one entity with the illusion of individualism. We were given bodies, to promote this illusion! So now, the only thing that is not an illusion is the dead (or un alive?) part of the universe.
    remember this is specualtion on my part and it is a work in progress!




    ~~~~~~~~~~~~sacrifice tenured credibility to the zombies of truth...I say~~~~~~~~~ heh~~~~~~~~~~~~ahhhh yes~~~~~~~~~~~~~be a real man ~~~~~~~~not a spineless sell your soul for a buck kinda parasite
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  11. #10 Has anyone seen the movie "Pi (faith in chaos)" ?? 
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    Has anyone seen the movie "Pi (faith in chaos)" ????
    No sounds fantastic.. does the blockbusters of the world have it?

    ever hear of midnite video? great uncut horror sf stuff ...
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  12. #11 Re: sacrifice tenured credibility to the zombies of truth... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by REV ROSWELL
    I feel that we are all one entity with the illusion of individualism. We were given bodies, to promote this illusion!
    I thought that was my idea. Acctualy it wasn't my idea but, when i heard it a while back i began to think about it. It seems very likely. If i may expand on it : We are one entity in search of understanding.

    So now, the only thing that is not an illusion is the dead (or un alive?) part of the universe.
    Why wouldn't these be part of the illusion. They are also connected to us, are they not?
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  13. #12 Re: Has anyone seen the movie "Pi (faith in chaos)" 
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    Quote Originally Posted by REV ROSWELL
    Has anyone seen the movie "Pi (faith in chaos)" ????
    No sounds fantastic.. does the blockbusters of the world have it?

    ever hear of midnite video? great uncut horror sf stuff ...
    Actually yes, I rented it on a Blockbuster.
    And no, I haven't seen midnite video.
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  14. #13 DID CAVE MEN HAVE SSRIs? 
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    thought that was my idea. Acctualy it wasn't my idea but, when i heard it a while back i began to think about it. It seems very likely. If i may expand on it : We are one entity in search of understanding.
    Yes, In search of understanding...... everything...Its a need that aches like a heroin addicted person jonesing (jonesing=pining for or wanting ) for the next fix.... even the Neanderthal had the ache....I get depressed at times, thinking that we are no closer than the man of 100,000 years ago to finding THE answer.
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  15. #14  
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    This is true but, we have to have learned something over that much time.
    We are in a strange age. Science is advancing very fast and religion is being better understood (i think). Things are gonna get weird, fast. I just hope we are looking in the right directions.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  16. #15  
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    Why wouldn't these be part of the illusion. They are also connected to us, are they not?


    Connected to the nonliving universe? Maybe its my German/Scottish genealogy, contrary to many beautiful indigenous and perhaps true beliefs, (like the earth is sentient), I feel that our reality permeates the universe like somewhat like the nearly massless neutrinos that zip through stars and the massive clumps of matter like they weren't there!

    It seems that our conscious reality is riding on exotic energy fields, one foot in the temoporal universe one foot in gods realm or the non temporal universe, as we take a mad slide through this thing we call a life time in space time...

    Sooooo, I feel we are not connected to the nonliving universe by default, because the nature of our being, and concious thought contains no mass or energy in my opinion!

    Be advised...For our uses I will refer to the nonliving universe as the Abiotic universe, and this part of our universe would include such things as tangible objects i.e. planets and the nonliving materials that make up stars and such...

    Energy fields, radiation ,gravity and other stuff (I am groping for terms here) would not necessarily be included because I feel that some energies can be used as a conduit to outside our temporal universe!

    It seems (in a subjective way) that the nonliving materials (the native Americans would take issue with me) in the universe are a distinct and very different form of being than living things.


    While they are very much a part of our universe, they are different from self aware (sentient) beings primarily because we cannot eliminate them from the temporal universe. We may be able to convert their mass to energy or otherwise manipulate the atomic/subatomic structure, but not destroy the mass or energy, or remove it form the temporal universe. (this is why I suspect that the universe will not die a cold dark death)

    We can however remove ourselves from this reality and universe. Hence the difference. I hope you can wade through this muck, I tried. Thanks for your inquisitive nature.

    I feel that QFT holds great promise of soothing a large part of the ache...of the need , that great need of an almost religious nature, that common need of mankind, for the big answer!

    ahhhhh', what I would give for a big Fix or a TOE (theory of everything) that makes sense and is substantiated by solid empirical evidence!~~~~~wait I feel another need....well no not that ! I am a caffine addict

    oh the paiiiiiiiin.........where is my car keys? .....


    NOT EDITED CAUSE IM ON MY WAY TO STARBUCKS CANT TYPE AND DRIVE....WILL EDIT AFTER JUMBO COFFEE AND THREE EXPRESSOS...HEN
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    Actually yes, I rented it on a Blockbuster.
    And no, I haven't seen midnite video.
    My DVD attention span is rather short but I will buy or rent it this day,I should of asked you age before recommending Midnite as that while not a porn broker they do delve into some unsavory subjects...
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  18. #17  
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    WOW!! You have definitely thought about it more than I have. I am not sure that I agree with everything though.

    My idea was more that we are somewhat responsible for the creation or at least alteration of this universe, and because of that we are connected to all things at some level.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  19. #18 Re: thought experiment # one.... proving self awareness 
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    Quote Originally Posted by REV ROSWELL
    Thought experiment # one or proving self awareness


    You are talking (on a telephone, no not a camera phone....) to either a person or the super super deep blue zillion terabyte computer that can mimic every human trait.

    Its name is brainstorm

    Sadly brainstorm is not conscious or self aware! THE question is.... How can you determine if you are talking to the computer or the person, if both are trying to deceive you? Is self awareness provable Yes, no, how?

    [/color]

    : { >[/b]
    ____________________

    Ps...I don't think self awareness is possible to prove. Yes, I am aware but how can I be sure you are? Sounds silly until you try to prove that someone is self aware with 100% accuracy.
    ____________________________

    I think it was either A. C. Clarke or Isaac Asimov who said that, if (that's the operative word here...) if a computer was programmed for synapsis, and, if, it was programmed with enough information, it would automatically become self aware - an artificial sentient being (Not an oxymoron or a non sequitur?) btw, any forumites about that may know something more about IBM's 'Blue Cube', besides the fact that it exists (and that at least one of them is in orbit)?
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