Notices
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 192

Thread: Atheist Manifesto

  1. #1 Atheist Manifesto 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    I just begun reading this book by Michel Onfray and now i can say i understand verzen better. BUT i am going to use this thread to post some thoughts concerning some of the things Onfray says.

    I have only read the first 3 chapters so if you respond, please do not go ahead of me. I will read it in my own time . In this thread I am not attempting to go into a philosophical discussion, so please do not go there.

    i will make quotes, merely for reference purposes not contextual so do not make the mistake that i am addressing a narrow point and ignoring the rest of what he says.

    also i will be making these comments from the perspective of my beliefs, at no time will i attempt to be objective (Drs. Orr, Dever and others feel objectivityis an impossibility and i agree with them) but respond according to my side of things. feel free to defend Onfray if you like with credible links, my resource and supporting reference will be the Bible.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    INTRODUCTION: pg. 2 " Human credulity is beyond imagining. Man's refusal to see the obvious..."

    n this paragraph i got the impression he was saying that believers use religion as an avoidance of reality. i would submit that that is what people use evolution for, an escape from the truth.

    pg. 3 "My atheism leaps to life when private belief becomes a public matter."

    here he seems to deny believers or other religious people the right of free speech and holds that such must be held privately. unfortunately for him, the christian faith is not like atheism as believers ar under the command of Christ to sahre their faith. They have as much right to publically talk about Jesus as a yankee fan has to talk about baseball.

    This denying of a christians right of free speech tells me that unbelievers do not want to hear the truth and will do anything to avoid knowing about the reality that is coming.

    Ch. 1 pg. 13 " God, manufactured by mortals in their own quintessential image, exists only to make daily life bearable..."

    He makes this same remark later on so these comments will address both instances. Here he is saying that believers have created their own God because life as he knows it is unbearable to live without some sort of crutch. the problem faced with this idea is that if there is no God, then man would have no concept of what God would be and would have no idea how to construct an imaginary one.

    This idea of fails also because of the existence of morality, evil, and good. If there was no God none of those things would exist and man would be able to practice survival of the fittest without fear of reprisal. anarchy would reign as people would not be afraid of dying for they would have no hope of anything beyond this world.

    At best this idea is Onfray's attempt at wishful thinking as he says later..." The last god will expire with the last man." so he thinks and wishes but such is not the case as God is not a creation of man and His ways rule inspite of the disbelief that permeates the world.

    pg. 15 " Atheism rejects the existence of God as a fiction devised by men desperate to keep on living in spite of the inevitability of death.

    Onfray fails here because he is placing his desperation upon those who have found the truth inhopes of reducing their joy to his level of despair. he is trying to create christianity in the same manner he says christians create God-- in his own image.

    he also fails to account for the existanceof good, evil, morality, death and other items. if God did not exist, except in the minds of believers, then how doe she account for the behavior to implement laws? laws would mean nothing for they would have no moral standard to stand upo.

    how does he explain the existence of death? why would men die if there was no God? if God is a fiction then allpeople should be allowed to do what the israelis did in the old testament--each man did as they thought was right in their own eyes. yet we see a majority of countries who have written their laws based upon the Bible's standards. there would be no reason for that if it were fiction.

    the rest of chapter one devolved into whining, woe is me(atheist), the big bad christians/religius peopel persecuted us and so on. He makes some false charges. denies people of their opinion and misunderstands why certain books of atheists are left unread.

    it is a good history of atheism but he whines and has sour grapes way too much which overshadows the chapter. his work is more biased than this assessment is.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    I don't know how many replies you'll get regarding the book itself, since I don't think many of us have actually read it. I certainly haven't and I don't particularly want to.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    817
    For once, archaeologist, you make a decent post. Many atheist book writers are on the militant and extreme end of atheism. Many agree that richard dawkins is among them. Most of what you've pointed out relies on the reader being of atheist mind to consider true. Which is why it is important to consider reference frames when writing anything.

    Suffice to say, atheist authors know who will buy their books, and write to please that party.
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    CHAPTER 2 pg. 27 " All these fine respectable philosophers believed in God"

    Okay we have a blind eye concerning certain philosophers, whitewashing their lives and ignoring their sins. Onfray says they believed in God yet from hsis introdcution it became clear that they believed in their version of God not who God really is.

    which is a common trait among unbelievers. after this par. he nows goes on a search for the 1st atheist. it is good history but it is all subjective as he feels that even a belief in a false god negates membership in atheism. he is probably right but he is missing the bigger picture, without God or any god, you have nothing so atheism really is stuck to explain many things in existence which all people possess.

    Pg. 29 " Jean Meslier...It is a scathing attack on the church, religion, Jesus,God..."

    Onfray and the atheists he quotes all forget to consider the part that the devil and evil play in life. they may say they do not believe God exists but they will blame Him when things do not go according to the way they want them. this refusal to accept reality allows them to come to the wrong conclusions as they do not consider that without the devil , evil does not exist. so where do they decide who is responsible for evil? if in man, then man is not as good as many say he is but then where would they get the idea to do evil?

    pg. 28 " Religion? An invention of men to ensure power over their brethern"

    if this were true and there was no God what would be holding the oppressed in these people's grasp? there would be no supreme being to punish the oppressed if they rebelled and there would be no ultimate consequence so nothing really is stopping the oppressed from rising p and vanquishing their oppressors.

    if religion was an invention, it would be discarded faster than yesterdays dirty underwear. for it would hold nothing of value for anyone--no hope, no rewards, no salvation. it becomes useless and people would mock those who attempt to oppress using religion.

    even the communists avoid using religion to oppress their people sowhy would normal people use sucha thing especially if it were false?

    pg. 30 " Then there was Claude-Adrien Helvetius...whose book ON The Mind attacked all forms of morality based upon religion."

    Unfortunately for Helvetius and Onfray, all morality is based upon religion, most noteably God's. Without God there is no source for morality , no ultimate standard to live by reducing morals to a subjective invention which would change every time a leader changed.no one would have any idea what was really right or what was really wrong.

    Pg. 32 " Reigion thus becomes the exploitation par excellance of man's vulnerbility to deception."

    problem here is for man to be deceived, a con artist must have a lot of truth included in the con. if religion is false then there nothing in it to make men even consider what is being used as deception is possibly true and possible. allpeople would know that religion is false thus it is useless as a tool to deceive others.

    pg. 36 " today we are witnessing efforts to smuggle the Bible and other montheistic bric a brac through the window into the house after centuries of philosophical struggle to ejectthem through the front door."

    What Onfray does not realize is that people are rejecting the lies of atheism and unblief and want more. They want something real, not man's rejection of what is valuable replaced by their own false ideas.

    His utter rejection of religion, christianity, shows he is playing God and deciding who can study what thus he is not really an atheist but a god who gets to rule like the one he rejects and says does not exist.

    pg. 39 "Religion is anchored in tradition and cashes in on nostalgia. philosophy looks to the future."

    he is wrong here and misunderstands most religions. Christianity may have some traditions but it is clearly looking to the future and the return of Christ. it has no value in being nostaligic becuase God has other plans. philosophy cannot look to the future for it offers nothing to expect or believe is coming. it can't promise better lives for such does not exist in philosophy and it can't deliever because it does not have the power to do so. it can only hope like other people hope.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    817
    Might I add that a forum is no place to write a book refutation?
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    The choice of the word Manifesto in the title, in and of itself, has an emotional bent that would leave prospective readers cold.

    I am a bit curious whether the book has an opinion on the evolution of religion. I tend to agree with Sam Harris, that the evolution of religion is one of the most fascinating aspects of our species makeup and largely understudied in the sciences.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    chapter 2 pg. 39 " A Christian era once replaced a pagan era,and it will inevitably be replaced by a post christian era..."

    with what? also, there was no real 'pagan era' as God always had a people who followed Him and he always had those who were his representatives so that the unbelievers were without excuse as they had been given the same opportunity to change as the new testament era provides the world since Christ.

    whathe is advocating is an old ideology--unbelief and that man is the ultimate being.

    Chapter 3 pg. 41 " Thirty generations, from the eariest texts of the old testament to the present day, teach us that the assertion of one God , violent, jelous, quarrelsome, intolerant and belicose has generated more hate, bloodshed, deaths and brutality than it has peace."

    here he proves my earlier point. the problems of the world are becuase God is at fault. yet if God doe snot exist as Onfay says, then he can only blame man. if religion is a fabrication then Onfray can only say man is responsible not God. this double standard defeats his argument plus he ignores the reality. more people have died at the hands of atheists thanthey have of those who claimto follow God.

    plus his figuring is off. does he count a generation as 100 years or 40? either way he is way off the mark as the earliest book of the old testament predates moses (Job) and it has been 3,500 years since he was alive.

    he cannot answer the question, if God and religion are false, then why would man go to war in His name? there would be no reason to and no hatred between religions for their would be no holy land to fight over.

    his idea that being the 'chosen people is a hjewish fantasy' falls short because it is impossible for anynation of people to make a fals ehhsitory andhave it become so part of their psychy that everyone from the beginning down to the modern age accept it as true.

    plus, there would be no way that once dispersed that the peopel of israel would re-assemble and be given their national lands back to them over the protests of the localinhabitants. Onfray ignores these difficulties

    pg. 42 " If the existence of God...had given us at least a little forewarning..."

    Yet He has but people reject it as does Onfray. right from the beginning God has let humans know whatis right or wrong and who he is. Onfray is just willfully ignoring those warnings because they do not fit his sensibilitites.

    He also ignores much of evil and its resp. in these matters putting the blame on a God that as he claims is non-existant. If God was non-existant why would Onfray blame Him at all?

    pg. 43 " Whether God is or is not, he has never made anyone pay for insulting, ...crossing him."

    Onfray ignores Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, The exodus, the wandering in the wilderness, the exile, the disporia and so on. he also ignores that God's grace rules right now with a lot of Patience, forgiveness and opportunity for a second chance. God has made peopel pay but peopel dismiss those stories because nothing has happened inthe modern era, or so they think.

    if a tidal wave or earthquake hits a country thenthey curse God for being cruel. So Onfray cannot say if God has not punished such people in themodern age, he won't accept it when it happens and repent.

    i willstop after this next point as i am tired. Fnally, Onfray lumps all religions into one basket and refuses to see the difference between them all. This is a classical mistake which leads unbelievers to misconceptions, wrong conclusions and false ideas about religion and christianity.

    if one wants to discuss God then they must seperate Him from all the false religions out there who claim to follow Him and then discuss the problems he perceives to exist. problem is since he doe snot believe God exists he will not do so for to him they are all the same and that is one of his bigger mistakes.

    they are not all the same and they all do not make the same claims.
    atheists have not teaveled all the world at the same time thus it is impossible for them to claim that there is no God. they would have to be a god to do so, then they would be attacking their own existence.

    atheism fails because it takes an impossible position and then creates religion after their own image then they attack their own assumptions about those religions and christianity.

    there is a lot of misinformation in Onfray's position and a lot of misconception in his ideas about christianity but then, the Bible tells us that the unregenerated mind cannot understand christianity and Onfray proves that very true.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    I don't know how many replies you'll get regarding the book itself, since I don't think many of us have actually read it
    i am hoping you will discuss atheism or your version of it further based upon the points i have raised.

    I am a bit curious whether the book has an opinion on the evolution of religion
    no, he says he will deconstruct the three monotheistic religions , christianity in particular.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    no, he says he will deconstruct the three monotheistic religions , christianity in particular.
    Ok, I probably won't read it--not there's a lack of them books and I rejected Christianity for what I thought were the inherent irrationality of it a more than 25 years ago.

    I think it misses the point in any case. For good or bad religion is attractive to humans and the three religions of the book have been among the most successful up to now, which I think means they represent the best groupings of attractive traits. To use Dawkin's analogy religion is the survival machines of individual cultural traits, beliefs etc---memes if you will. While Christian and faith based "attack books" attempt to denigrate the memes, something not that hard to do, they don't often ask the most important question of why they were attractive to begin with and why the religion they are attached to continues to thrive.

    As we continue to evolve into a more secular culture understanding and being able to continue to fill the inherent spiritual side of our species will be essential.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    He makes this same remark later on so these comments will address both instances. Here he is saying that believers have created their own God because life as he knows it is unbearable to live without some sort of crutch. the problem faced with this idea is that if there is no God, then man would have no concept of what God would be and would have no idea how to construct an imaginary one.
    I disagree. Think of God as the ultimate alpha male/being. A dumping ground for all uncertainties and frailties personified. He is the strongest, the wisest, the most compassionate, the creator, the punisher of enemies, the giver of strength and courage, the scapegoat for our own motivations either intentionally or by way of delusion, giver of hope and purpose. These are all things that are entirely human and would be expected of an animal of a certain intelligence and social hierarchal dynamics.

    We are already conscious while inside the womb and remember that environment as a vague, instinctually qualified safe-zone. Heaven, I think, has many of the characteristics of this initial environment and reveals a secret desire of us to return to a place where all uncertainties and pressures are finally released. It is a place of unconditional release, of impenetrable security and comfort. We can imagine these things and it ties up perfectly with our desires during a life when it is not yet attainable and is easily made possible by the conceptual being we have constructed for ourselves.

    he also fails to account for the existanceof good, evil, morality, death and other items. if God did not exist, except in the minds of believers, then how doe she account for the behavior to implement laws? laws would mean nothing for they would have no moral standard to stand upo.
    The concept of morals is quite straight forward and I can't understand how you cannot see that. Morals are almost always relative, that is, not a perfectly consistent throughout the world. Some of the reason for this is because of the prevailing religion in the particular area, but mostly it is an adaptive response to obstacles against survival. If you look close enough, you can see basic morals in social animals as well. In short, there is a social standard that has negative consequences if contravened. Why would animals have the analogues of morals if they have no prospect of an afterlife? No you not recognize these analogues?

    how does he explain the existence of death? why would men die if there was no God? if God is a fiction then allpeople should be allowed to do what the israelis did in the old testament--each man did as they thought was right in their own eyes. yet we see a majority of countries who have written their laws based upon the Bible's standards. there would be no reason for that if it were fiction.
    As has been explained, death is essential for the continuation of a species. In nature, death more often than not comes as a result of another. Organisms get eaten and suffer fatal injuries. For humans it is the same. Imagine a world where all humans did not age. It would not take long before we ran out of space and resources and would then die in mass quantities. While we proliferate, the organisms that serve as our food would perish. The same would happen in nature. If no natural culling takes place, the organisms would run out of space and resources within the confines of the habitat they are adapted to. If no organisms died, where would they get the food needed to extract energy from? Plants are much poorer sources of food than other animals are and as a consequence the dominant part of an herbivore's life consists out of eating.

    Onfray and the atheists he quotes all forget to consider the part that the devil and evil play in life. they may say they do not believe God exists but they will blame Him when things do not go according to the way they want them. this refusal to accept reality allows them to come to the wrong conclusions as they do not consider that without the devil , evil does not exist. so where do they decide who is responsible for evil? if in man, then man is not as good as many say he is but then where would they get the idea to do evil?
    This makes little sense. What is evil? How do we recognize it? Is it not the simple opposite of our moral code? Is it not the compound name for all that threaten us? People do evil for the purposes of satisfying a need. They want your recourses, they want your status and they want your land. Often they will simply see you as a threat to his people and way of life and will act towards defending it, the same as you'll do. Which one of those is evil then?

    If you have any problems with what I said, please raise issue with them directly. Try to do this not by explaining why god made it so, but by illustrating how it could not work this way without a god.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    We are already conscious while inside the womb and remember that environment as a vague, instinctually qualified safe-zone
    you are taking what is already in existence and applying it to something that is void of the concept.

    a fetus would not know what a safe zone was nor what danger is. totally misapplied knowledge here.

    The concept of morals is quite straight forward and I can't understand how you cannot see that. Morals are almost always relative, that is, not a perfectly consistent throughout the world
    you are missing the point. we have morals because there is a God who instilled morality on His creation but gave them a choice to follow good or evil. you cannot say morals would exist if there was no God because there is nothing implementing the standard.

    People do evil for the purposes of satisfying a need.
    where would that 'need' come from?

    If no organisms died, where would they get the food needed to extract energy from?
    still doesn't explainwhy death is in the world. there is no reasonfor it to exist if there was no Gof and no devil. food would have to be something else.

    As we continue to evolve into a more secular culture understanding and being able to continue to fill the inherent spiritual side of our species will be essential.
    you are not evolving but headed towards totalitarianism. is Hitler's model the perfect evolved human?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    you are taking what is already in existence and applying it to something that is void of the concept.
    What do you mean, that heaven is already in existence? What is the use of discussing the truth of something if it is already taken as a given? You can't use the fact that something is a given subjectively to prove it exists objectively.


    a fetus would not know what a safe zone was nor what danger is. totally misapplied knowledge here.
    Why wouldn't it? Are you saying humans have no instincts? The distinction is between an abstract emotional feeling and a fully formed concrete concept. Does a kitten have to know why it feels safe with its mother?

    you are missing the point. we have morals because there is a God who instilled morality on His creation but gave them a choice to follow good or evil. you cannot say morals would exist if there was no God because there is nothing implementing the standard.
    Did you not read what I said? The analogue of morals are present in animals also in the form of confines of behaviour. Do you deny this? Morals are entirely utilitarian in nature. Without social order, in humans or animals, the species will die out. Morals and ethics are needed for our society to work. The fact that we have proliferated is evidence of this. If anti-social conduct is not discouraged, the whole group suffers. That is the whole concept of a social structure: Individuals working together for a common goal.

    where would that 'need' come from?
    We want to survive. We need food or we die. We need shelter, breeding partners and social cohesion or we die. In order to get what we need we often have to take it from others or defend ourselves from others who want to take it from us.


    still doesn't explainwhy death is in the world. there is no reasonfor it to exist if there was no Gof and no devil. food would have to be something else.
    This makes little sense. Where would food come from then? What other form can it take? Humans are omnivores, which means we eat plants and other animals. That means those animals have to die. We ourselves would become food for others if we weren't careful. We still are when we die.

    You did not respond to all of my points.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    death exists because the biological element of beings decomposes. once the decomposition level becomes high enough, the functions of the biological components become distorted and eventually cease. A discussion on life and death from this perspective belongs in the Biology subforum, being that the how's and why's can be very VERY easily explained there be people of much MUCH more knowledge on that subject than me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    death exists because the biological element of beings decomposes.
    where would this element of decomposing come from? why would it originate in the first place? what purpose would it serve if God is not in the picture?

    What is the use of discussing the truth of something if it is already taken as a given? You can't use the fact that something is a given subjectively to prove it exists objectively.
    i may not be making myself clear enough. because we already have morals and other characteristics it is wrong to assume that they would have developed without the presence of God.

    you are applying an assumption not fact.

    Why wouldn't it? Are you saying humans have no instincts? The distinction is between an abstract emotional feeling and a fully formed concrete concept. Does a kitten have to know why it feels safe with its mother
    where would they come from? my point is that without God such things would not develope because there is no source for them.

    Morals are entirely utilitarian in nature. Without social order, in humans or animals, the species will die out.
    again, without God where would the idea of social order arise? what woul dbe its source? would not humans and animals die out long before a social order was developed?

    to make a civilized world means that the idea of social order had to come at the beginning not the middle nor the end. yet you provide no source for such ideas to germinate at the beginning but imply that the idea grew as tiem went on. but then that would be too late.

    We want to survive. We need food or we die. We need shelter, breeding partners and social cohesion or we die. In order to get what we need we often have to take it from others or defend ourselves from others who want to take it from us
    in all of your points, you keep taking what is already existing and going backwards applying the ideas we know about to some source which you cannot identify or explain.

    to be honest you need to look at what you are proclaiming, see it as it is then apply those ideas to the start and then ask where would what we know develope.

    you cannot take what is from God and apply the same ideas for then you are just repackaging God and turning Him into what you want Him to be. you are NOT staying true to what you proclaim.

    for sake of argument, you say (or others have said) evolution doesn't know anything. okay, if it doesn't know anything then how can it develope any species to be enviornmentally sound? it can't, it doesn't know anything. if you say it can develope morality, death, good and evil etc. then all you are doing is giving something that doesn't know anything, God-like qualities and then it turns into an entity that knows something.

    so you cannot have it both ways. if it doesn't know anything then it can't do anything and if it knows something then you have made it into a god but a different god than the God of the Bible.

    This makes little sense. Where would food come from then? What other form can it take?
    if there is no death, then food cannot be found in live entities, it would have to come from items that never had any life. we should be eating dirt and rocks by your idea in its purest form.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    where would this element of decomposing come from? why would it originate in the first place? what purpose would it serve if God is not in the picture?
    Does it HAVE to have a supreme purpose? Besides, the reason a dead body decomposes is NOT because of god or some divine intervention. It is do to bacteria eating away at the corpse.
    I guess the "supreme" purpose is to recycle the parts of the Earth that Humans use up and put it back in the Earth to create a new being. Energy never ceises to exist. It only changes shape.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    go to the bio forum. they can explain it better than I
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Does it HAVE to have a supreme purpose? Besides, the reason a dead body decomposes is NOT because of god or some divine intervention. It is do to bacteria eating away at the corpse.
    1. God said 'from the dust of the ground you came to the dust ye shall return' so we have origin of decomposition right there.

    2. sure it is because their is no room nor explanation for such a thing to take place. all you are going to say is, it just happens' yet isn't that what you castigate creationists for saying?

    3. yet you do not explain where that bacteria comes from and why it would exist since their is no purpose for death in the alternatives. you can't explain why their is death in the first place WITHOUT God, right and wrong, sin and good and evil.

    it doesn't make sense without adam's fall.

    go to the bio forum. they can explain it better than I
    better yet, link it up so i do not waste my time.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    death exists because the biological element of beings decomposes.
    where would this element of decomposing come from? why would it originate in the first place? what purpose would it serve if God is not in the picture?.
    1. Shit happens.
    2. It's natural.
    3. It doesn't have a purpose.

    4. Why your obsession with purpose? Can't you make your own? Does everything have to be handed to you on a platter?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    2. sure it is because their is no room nor explanation for such a thing to take place. all you are going to say is, it just happens' yet isn't that what you castigate creationists for saying?

    3. yet you do not explain where that bacteria comes from and why it would exist since their is no purpose for death in the alternatives. you can't explain why their is death in the first place WITHOUT God, right and wrong, sin and good and evil.

    it doesn't make sense without adam's fall.

    go to the bio forum. they can explain it better than I
    better yet, link it up so i do not waste my time.
    Linked! watch the thread I made, it will be very useful for the argument against "God is necessary for Death" that you have.

    plus I have this taken out of Bio:
    Quote Originally Posted by schiz0yd
    from what i learned in my bio II class, life is a result of a chemistry 'accident' that created what we know as metabolism: a process that takes in matter, breaks it down and gives off waste and began repeating itself by chance through the life-supporting relationship of fats, carbs and amino acids. however, even getting to that stage is through evolution, as a metabolism must first evolve enzymes and harness the ingredients for polymers (dna, protein) to work right. it is broken down into catabolism, the process that breaks down matter and converts it to energy, and anabolism, the part that uses resources from food to create things such as proteins and other building blocks of the body. from there, single-celled organisms came about by sustaining their existence through feeding off of what the metabolism broke down from its 'food'. in a sense you could look at most of your body as a collection of symbiotic life forms, reproducing every time a human does. our life form is really only our brain, and every other cell in the body is a symbiotic life form under the umbrella of our control. anyway, the metabolism process could have been initially caused by undersea vents, mixing high-energy chemicals with water (the main ingredient in life) and coming out with, in simple terms, a chemical reaction that causes a chain reaction. every time life reproduces is a repetition of the same chemical reaction that first started it all, but with whatever modifications made them more dominant and 'fit' ('fitness' is actually a species ability to reproduce, not exercise).

    metabolism is all well and great, but to continue to answer your question, where did metabolism come from? the 'primordial soup' theory is that after oceans developed on earth, the atmosphere was a 'redox' atmosphere, meaning that the random energies of wind and gravity and other various sources of energy caused the elements in the atmosphere to combine and make organic compounds, or monomers (monomor: compound that can join with others of its kind ot create polymers like protein. e.g. amino acids). these monomers weighed themselves down into the ocean and through a long period of time and energies (likely including the super-heat of undersea vents) mixing these monomers with the additional compounds of the primordial soup created random chemical reactions that involved polymers until finally, one of them (metabolism) harnessed the ability for polymers, which are naturally patterned and repetetive, to create a pattern that would cause a chain of reactions to happen the same way every time, otherwise known today as DNA. DNA is reactive with RNA, and the patterned structure of DNA causes RNA to have the same reaction every time it encounters the same DNA (transcription). in a cell, the DNA congregates naturally into chromosomes, made of chromatin. eventually, as life was still finding its bearings, cells mutated to cause chomatin to condense under certain circumstances. when this happens, transcription is no longer possible as they are now too compacted to act as accessable information, and instead gained the function of compact transportation of information. in this compact form, evolution continued until a mutation caused two of them to form a four-armed structure, making them chromatids. continued mutation resulted in microtubules connecting to the center, or the centromere, and slowly yanking the structure apart, turning the chromatids into 'daughter chromosomes' which have now each received one set of chromatids from the other. this is the mixing and division of DNA, and soon after the entire cells follow suit and divide as the individual sets of DNA begin direction of polymers in construction of their own respective single-cells.

    single cells went on to form communities, mutating and growing unimaginable 'bodies' from random mutation. eventually a cell mutation that caused the growth of the nucleus was able to reproduce effectively, and the continued process of that mutation resulted the advancement of intelligence(or recognition of patterns), and coupled with billions of years of random physical mutation, you have today's life forms. metabolisms allianced with polymers and suited with the most useful genetic mutations that allowed them to reproduce up to this point.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    1. God said 'from the dust of the ground you came to the dust ye shall return' so we have origin of decomposition right there.
    So they had knowledge of decomposing.

    2. sure it is because their is no room nor explanation for such a thing to take place. all you are going to say is, it just happens' yet isn't that what you castigate creationists for saying?
    How many times have I told you this? CELLS BECOME DISORGANIZED. That is the source of death. You just dont want to learn. You tell us that we can't explain death. I tell you that death is the result of cells being disorganized, You tell me again that we can't explain death. I have to repeat myself EVERY time you ask this question. You just dont want to learn. Get it through your head. DEATH IS THE RESULT OF DISORGANIZED CELLS. As a human we are comprised of cells. When cells become disorganized, we die.

    3. yet you do not explain where that bacteria comes from and why it would exist since their is no purpose for death in the alternatives. you can't explain why their is death in the first place WITHOUT God, right and wrong, sin and good and evil.
    Abiogenesis is one theory of where bacteria originated from and we are related to bacteria. We have changed over time because of evolution. Not all bacteria is put into an environment that can change into a species like you or me.
    I told you the purpose for death. Cells just get disorganized and die. That is just the way it is. I just explained death without God. Cells become disorganized. It's not a difficult concept. Right and Wrong is based on a social stigma. So is Good and evil.


    it doesn't make sense without adam's fall.
    Simply because it doesn't make sense to YOU does not mean it isn't actually happening. Your appeal to ignorance is not proper evidence for your claim.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    How many times have I told you this
    youare missing the point. you are taking something in action now and apply it to something that could not possibly 'invent' it. there is NO reason for cellsto become disorganized in your theory.

    Abiogenesis is one theory of where bacteria originated from and we are related to bacteria. We have changed over time because of evolution. Not all bacteria is put into an environment that can change into a species like you or me
    you are avoiding the issue. there is NO reason for suchthings to exist under your theories.

    1. Shit happens.
    2. It's natural.
    3. It doesn't have a purpose.

    4. Why your obsession with purpose? Can't you make your own? Does everything have to be handed to you on a platter?
    #1. avoidance; #2 under your theory it is not.; #3. yes it does or it makes no sense and shows you are willing to asccept biblical explanations in a different wrapper. so why not believe the Bible?

    #4. making one's own has nothingto do with the existenceof soemthing that has no purpose or reason to exist. no but you are the ones creating the alternative, you need to provide satisfactory and believable origins to what is in life and you fail. your alternatives fail because they cannot replace the Bible and explain everything crediblly.

    ***on another note, some of you atheists have said they disagreed with the title of the book, or other items i have quoted. here is your chance to be understood, so explain what you disagree with and why.

    giving me a better picture instead of letting me extrapolate Onfray's ideas upon you would make our discussions better.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    youare missing the point. you are taking something in action now and apply it to something that could not possibly 'invent' it. there is NO reason for cellsto become disorganized in your theory.
    First of all, its not a theory. It's Cell Law.

    you are avoiding the issue. there is NO reason for suchthings to exist under your theories.
    WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE A REASON. You have YET to answer that question.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    First of all, its not a theory. It's Cell Law.
    right as set in motion by God and influenced by the fall of man.

    you have yet to show that evolution could produce such change in celluar structure to act in this manner.

    WHY DOES THERE NEED TO BE A REASON.
    in other posts i have. your theory on life origin does not account for death and has no purpose for death to exist sowhy does it exist? your theory cannot explain its existence. saying that cells gets disorganized only expalins the end not the beginning.

    your theory on life change has no reason for death to exist. why couldn't it just produce species that lived forever? that is the way your theories are designed in reality so why isn't it so? why does death exist whentheir is no purpose for death to exist?

    there has to be a reason or your theory makes no sense whatsoever. it fails to explain the existence and purpose of many things which shows you that the Bible is true after all. their failure shows that they are wrong.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    For the eighth time of asking, why does there have to be a purpose?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    For the eighth time of asking, why does there have to be a purpose?
    You're confusing him.

    I suspect he assumes that each and every thing must have a purpose and a reason.

    I'm not convinced he understands your question.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    I suspect he assumes that each and every thing must have a purpose and a reason.

    I'm not convinced he understands your question.
    I believe you are absolutely correct. But this blind spot lies at the heart of his entire problem. He insists that things must have purpose. He is afraid that they may not. He prefers a nice safe well defined Christian universe over a reality, purely because he does not like that reality.

    I shall continue to ask him that fundamental question until either he sees reason, or I get banned for allowing my frustration to explode.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    For the eighth time of asking, why does there have to be a purpose?
    it is not me that is missing the point. under your alternative thinking (since someone complained i used the word 'evolution' too much) all species should be 'born', for lack of a better word, perfect, no diseases, no dying.

    your alternatives do not provide for the existence of imperfections like disease and death.

    all most of you have been doing is describing what we already have but you have NO explanation for their existence or where they come from.

    He prefers a nice safe well defined Christian universe over a reality, purely because he does not like that reality.
    what i am pointing out is that with God and His word, we have all the answers, those of you who reject Him cannot bring in replacement answers, you have nothing of value in your alternatives to give to people.

    it is not me wanting a 'safe christian world' it is you who wants to avoid the reality because you do not like it. do not transfer your fears onto me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    it is not me that is missing the point. under your alternative thinking (since someone complained i used the word 'evolution' too much) all species should be 'born', for lack of a better word, perfect, no diseases, no dying.
    WTF? Evolution is built on the concept of diseases, mutations, and guess what.. DYING. It is your God belief that there should be no dying, unless your God is a sick fuck who takes pleasure in watching his creations die. And dont blame this on Sin. If you do, then you are saying your God is powerless against Sin.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    We do all have purpose, for us that's between our legs. Anything else is a construct of our thinking.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    The Holy Land is everywhere Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    don't let him get under your skin Verzen.

    Just because you don't see the logic in our answers doesn't mean they are not valid. Just because our answers don't conform to yours, they are invalid? What kind of logical, rational, man are you arch?
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Evolution is built on the concept of diseases, mutations, and guess what.. DYING
    how can it? you can't even explain how they originated or where they came from. there is no reason for them to exist.

    It is your God belief that there should be no dying, unless your God is a sick fuck who takes pleasure in watching his creations die. And dont blame this on Sin. If you do, then you are saying your God is powerless against Sin.
    there is so much you do not understand, but your anger and hatrd get in the way. remember you want to be master and want God to do your bidding but it doesn't work that way. it is you who has to make the change and turn to serve God.

    Just because you don't see the logic in our answers doesn't mean they are not valid. Just because our answers don't conform to yours, they are invalid? What kind of logical, rational, man are you arch?
    i am just trying to get you to realize that what you claim life to be doesn't fit with what it is. you need scientific explanations for the existences of death, diseases, and so much more if you do not want to be hypocritical and destroy your own argument.

    once you are hypocritical you are no longer an authority that needs to be listened to,which is why we have God creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th. he could not tell man to do the same if He did not do it himself.

    there is a reason for everything and without that reason God would not be God and we could do as we lease without fear
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    now i hope we canget back to the atheist manifesto as i would like to hear how you atheists differ from Onfray's point of view.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Forum Sophomore hokie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    175
    once you are hypocritical you are no longer an authority that needs to be listened to,which is why we have God creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th.
    I see you still rely on that silly book for your comments.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    No, arch, we don't. In science, it's okay to say "I don't Know" and still not contradict yourself or become hypocritical. The bible, as you claim to be scientific, doesn't explain the why's of anything except for it is God's will, and anything that disagree's with that MUST be wrong. I take solace in the fact that I was capable of shedding that guise. I hope you can take solace in the fact that all of your "attempts" at understanding are tainted by your distrust of anything that disagrees with the bible. No matter what kind of evidence I present, you will just disregard it for being 'non-christian'.

    However, I will let you get back to your topic now, and leave you in peace, For there is no reason for me to remain or give my opinion to you as you will simply read, then shed off what I said as if it were unholy and wrong.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    In science, it's okay to say "I don't Know" and still not contradict yourself or become hypocritical. The bible, as you claim to be scientific, doesn't explain the why's of anything except for it is God's will
    and God wanting you to be alive and be with Him is not a good enough reason for you? many childen of the world want their parents to want them, do you think science is going to fill that void and heal that pain?

    taking away their hope and saying God wants you is not good enough is cruel and destroys people, but that is what you get with evolution.

    we believers still say 'i don't know' when we do not know as Godhas not given us allthe answers in one moment. there are many things we have to learn as well but for those who have decided to stunt their spiritual growth, 'God's will' is the best answer they can give.

    it is correct though maybe unsatisfactory to those who want more, but when you boil it all down, we are here , the earth is here and the universe because God wanted us here.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    archaeologist, how old are you? I'm just curious.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Sophomore hokie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    175
    The way he talked to me makes me think he's no more than mid teens.

    Look at his ramblings, poor spelling, disconnected thoughts, ... Has teenager written all over it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    Quote Originally Posted by hokie
    The way he talked to me makes me think he's no more than mid teens.

    Look at his ramblings, poor spelling, disconnected thoughts, ... Has teenager written all over it.
    Either that, or old and senile.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Quote Originally Posted by hokie
    The way he talked to me makes me think he's no more than mid teens.

    Look at his ramblings, poor spelling, disconnected thoughts, ... Has teenager written all over it.
    I'll guess late thirties, early forties. Why does that matter?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    my age is no one's concern.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    i'd go for old, senile, and set in his ways.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    I have no problem disclosing my age.

    I'm 16.

    I'm curious as to how many people are surprised by this though?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    INTRODUCTION: pg. 2 " Human credulity is beyond imagining. Man's refusal to see the obvious..."

    n this paragraph i got the impression he was saying that believers use religion as an avoidance of reality. i would submit that that is what people use evolution for, an escape from the truth.
    Making such a submission would only demonstrate your lack of understanding of evolution.

    pg. 3 "My atheism leaps to life when private belief becomes a public matter."

    here he seems to deny believers or other religious people the right of free speech and holds that such must be held privately. unfortunately for him, the christian faith is not like atheism as believers ar under the command of Christ to sahre their faith. They have as much right to publically talk about Jesus as a yankee fan has to talk about baseball.
    Christians have the right to talk about it, but shouldn't have the right to inject their beliefs into society.

    This denying of a christians right of free speech tells me that unbelievers do not want to hear the truth and will do anything to avoid knowing about the reality that is coming.
    Utter nonsense. Non-believers understand the beliefs of Christians are little more than myths and superstitions.

    Ch. 1 pg. 13 " God, manufactured by mortals in their own quintessential image, exists only to make daily life bearable..."

    He makes this same remark later on so these comments will address both instances. Here he is saying that believers have created their own God because life as he knows it is unbearable to live without some sort of crutch. the problem faced with this idea is that if there is no God, then man would have no concept of what God would be and would have no idea how to construct an imaginary one.
    The fact that there is no god does not preclude the notion of imagining one.

    This idea of fails also because of the existence of morality, evil, and good. If there was no God none of those things would exist and man would be able to practice survival of the fittest without fear of reprisal. anarchy would reign as people would not be afraid of dying for they would have no hope of anything beyond this world.
    Utter nonsense. The fact that you believe in god and the fact that evil exists demonstrates your point as completely moot. Evils exists because of your god.

    pg. 15 " Atheism rejects the existence of God as a fiction devised by men desperate to keep on living in spite of the inevitability of death.

    Onfray fails here because he is placing his desperation upon those who have found the truth inhopes of reducing their joy to his level of despair. he is trying to create christianity in the same manner he says christians create God-- in his own image.
    Or, he is simply describing the "ignorance is bliss" concept of the religious mindset.

    he also fails to account for the existanceof good, evil, morality, death and other items. if God did not exist, except in the minds of believers, then how doe she account for the behavior to implement laws? laws would mean nothing for they would have no moral standard to stand upo.
    Yet, if morals had evolved over time, long before your god was put into existence, your point would be moot, once again.

    how does he explain the existence of death? why would men die if there was no God? if God is a fiction then allpeople should be allowed to do what the israelis did in the old testament--each man did as they thought was right in their own eyes. yet we see a majority of countries who have written their laws based upon the Bible's standards. there would be no reason for that if it were fiction.
    Strawman. The bible exists, whether it is a fairy tale or not.

    the rest of chapter one devolved into whining, woe is me(atheist), the big bad christians/religius peopel persecuted us and so on. He makes some false charges. denies people of their opinion and misunderstands why certain books of atheists are left unread.

    it is a good history of atheism but he whines and has sour grapes way too much which overshadows the chapter. his work is more biased than this assessment is.
    Sour grapes, you say? Oh, how the "special" people of the world are oh-so superior.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    i just read the next 40 pages last night and it is clear to me that atheists do not honestly investigate anything but use illusions to fuel their hatred towards christianity. Onfray did not make one legitimate reference, did not attempt to honestly lookat both sides but made the standard attacks upon christianity without cause.

    he relied upon hearsay, false acusations, innuendo and distorted writings to make his attack upon christianity. at no time did he attempt to be objective or even try to understand that which he was attacking nor did he even try to paint an honest picture as he leapt to conclusions based upon blind assumption./

    cases in point: he says 'rivers of blood' flowed because of all the wars caused by christians. yet he ignores the fact that stalin, an atheist, killed 14,000,000 of his own people, atilla the hun killed millions more along with every other despot in history.

    this one sided attacks just show that the atheists have problems and use their hatred to fuel their actions.

    another example is his rant about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Onfray stops at the words 'tree of knowledge' then goes on the attack about how God is against knowledge. his ignoring of the words 'good and evil' shows how much he distorts the truth just so he can justify his evil life.

    he is so far fr4om the truth as most atheists are. Onfray does not even come close to presenting the whole picture as he slanders God and christians by his forgetting the verses in Proverbs which state: get knowledge, wisdom and understanding.

    if he didn't he would have no argument so his selective quoting destroys any credibility he had. when atheists get honest then they can complain but until then they need to study better and put aside their hatred so they can see the truth before opening their mouths.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    I'm 20... and I feel my age has no bearing at all whatsoever with my intellect. Deja, Kalster, Arch, I'm curious on you guys as well, just as a basis for comparison really.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Making such a submission would only demonstrate your lack of understanding of evolution.
    tired old complaint and does not apply here. you need to get something new instead of dismissing dissenting opinion and facts.

    Christians have the right to talk about it, but shouldn't have the right to inject their beliefs into society
    i am sorry but you are wrong. you do NOT have the right to block it. freedom of religion is a right in most countries./

    Utter nonsense. Non-believers understand the beliefs of Christians are little more than myths and superstitions
    and you would be wrong.

    The fact that there is no god does not preclude the notion of imagining one
    if there was no God there would be no concept of what a god or God was. you cannot imagine what you do not know about. oh and have you been all over the world at the same time and talk to everyone and looked under every rock, into every home etc. and proven this to be true?

    Utter nonsense
    you are a stupid person, did you know that? evil exists not because of God but you wouldn't know that becuase you hide your head in the sand and say 'there is no god' 'there is no god' 'there is no god' like a mantra ignoring the fact that he is right behind you wartching you hide your eyes willfully.

    it is because of people like you that evil exists not because of God.

    he is simply describing the "ignorance is bliss" concept of the religious mindset.
    you obviously do not understand christinaity (don't like your own argument used against you do you?). you have no idea what peace and joy christians feel once they believe and you won't till you repent.

    if morals had evolved over time, long before your god was put into existence, your point would be moot, once again
    barking up the wrong tree because you do not want to humble yourself to God and learn the truth.

    Strawman. The bible exists, whether it is a fairy tale or not.
    wrong again. this is your avoidance of the truth.

    Sour grapes, you say? Oh, how the "special" people of the world are oh-so superior.
    it is obvious that you do not know what 'sour grapes' means. it doesn't make us feel superior, but you are feeling slighted because you do not get your way and God at the same time. you have to change
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    tired old complaint and does not apply here. you need to get something new instead of dismissing dissenting opinion and facts.
    You have a bizarre suite of opinions and no facts. That merits only prompt dismissal.
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    i am sorry but you are wrong. you do NOT have the right to block it. freedom of religion is a right in most countries./
    You have the freedom to practice your religion, not the right to 'inject your beliefs into society'. Once again I am astounded by your poor comprehension of simple English. These discussions would go more smoothly if you would take the time to read what is written, rather than running off at the mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    if there was no God there would be no concept of what a god or God was. you cannot imagine what you do not know about.
    I am now prepared to believe this is true of you. It is not true of most posters on this forum, of science fiction writers, the great novelists, nobel prize winners and small children. In fact it is not true of most people except those who thought processes have been atrophied by immersion in dogma.
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    it is because of people like you that evil exists not because of God.
    it is because of people like you that evil exists not because of God.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    I am 30 and turned fully atheist (finally admitting it to myself) only two years ago.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist

    tired old complaint and does not apply here. you need to get something new instead of dismissing dissenting opinion and facts.
    I don't dismiss the fact that you know nothing about evolution. I uphold and stand behind that fact with due diligence.

    i am sorry but you are wrong. you do NOT have the right to block it. freedom of religion is a right in most countries./
    You most certainly don't have the right to inject your myths and superstitions into society. But, you are free to practice voodoo, is you so desire, behind your own closed doors, thanks.


    and you would be wrong.
    And, you would be deluded.

    if there was no God there would be no concept of what a god or God was. you cannot imagine what you do not know about. oh and have you been all over the world at the same time and talk to everyone and looked under every rock, into every home etc. and proven this to be true?
    The gibberish spouted there is equivalent to a child holding their hands over their eyes in the belief they cannot be seen.

    you are a stupid person, did you know that?
    Are you saying I'm stupid because I don't believe a childish fairy tale like...

    the fact that he is right behind you wartching you hide your eyes willfully.
    From childish fairy tales, we move along to kindergarten playground logic...

    it is because of people like you that evil exists not because of God.
    you have no idea what peace and joy christians feel once they believe and you won't till you repent.
    That would be the "blissful ignorance" often heard and seen in the faces of Christians, and you're right, I don't feel that. And, I'm rightly thankful for it.

    barking up the wrong tree because you do not want to humble yourself to God and learn the truth.
    woof woof - I'll use your god as a fire hydrant.


    wrong again. this is your avoidance of the truth.
    Did it take you all day to formulate that insightful response?

    you are feeling slighted because you do not get your way and God at the same time. you have to change
    And be like you? I'd rather stick needles in my eyes and chew on a large wad of tin foil while listening to Cher.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    Just because several atheists are pompous jackasses doesn't mean all of us are. Don't lump us together like that, or else you run the course of being as ignorant and arrogant as those you lament and whine about.

    but, suffice to say, Onfray and Hitchens are among the worst. Sam Harris is a little more humble, read up on him, but also understand, that atheist take into account that the ideals of evolution, biology, physics, chemistry, are all accurate, despite what the bible says... oh, and
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Making such a submission would only demonstrate your lack of understanding of evolution.
    tired old complaint and does not apply here. you need to get something new instead of dismissing dissenting opinion and facts.
    Opinions can be dismissed. When you post some facts we will consider them.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Christians have the right to talk about it, but shouldn't have the right to inject their beliefs into society
    i am sorry but you are wrong. you do NOT have the right to block it. freedom of religion is a right in most countries.
    Free to believe, not free to act.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Utter nonsense. Non-believers understand the beliefs of Christians are little more than myths and superstitions
    and you would be wrong.
    what happened to allowing opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    The fact that there is no god does not preclude the notion of imagining one
    if there was no God there would be no concept of what a god or God was.
    Enter: the flying spaghetti monster.



    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    you cannot imagine what you do not know about.
    Mmmmmmmm, alternate realities where people are made of jelly.....

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    oh and have you been all over the world at the same time and talk to everyone and looked under every rock, into every home etc. and proven this to be true?
    ???

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Utter nonsense
    you are a stupid person, did you know that?
    Yeah, we're pretty dim. But still not stupid enough to believe you, whereas you believe yourself, so on balance you would appear less mentally endowed


    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    evil exists not because of God but you wouldn't know that becuase you hide your head in the sand and say 'there is no god' 'there is no god' 'there is no god' like a mantra ignoring the fact that he is right behind you wartching you hide your eyes willfully.
    We say there is no god based on the impression given by all evidence, years of searching, and in my case at least, years spent believing with my prayers unanswered.

    You believe there is a god by gut instinct.

    Sorry, who is burying their head in the sand?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    it is because of people like you that evil exists not because of God.
    Evil=religious variation?

    Or evil=evolution?

    Or evil=science?

    Or evil=anyone who disagrees with you?

    Or evil=a matter of opinion?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    he is simply describing the "ignorance is bliss" concept of the religious mindset.
    you obviously do not understand christinaity (don't like your own argument used against you do you?). you have no idea what peace and joy christians feel once they believe and you won't till you repent.
    I, however, was raised christian, and understand it perfectly. This 'peace and joy', is that where I became frustrated to the point of atheism by lack of evidence for god's existance?

    The word of someone who has the word of someone else and so in is not reason enough to believe, for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    if morals had evolved over time, long before your god was put into existence, your point would be moot, once again
    barking up the wrong tree because you do not want to humble yourself to God and learn the truth.
    Yeah, because god tells the truth to whoever listens

    Can't use that one me, I was christian before, remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Strawman. The bible exists, whether it is a fairy tale or not.
    wrong again. this is your avoidance of the truth.
    Yeah, the bible certainly does not exist!

    *pop*

    Crap, where'd it go?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Sour grapes, you say? Oh, how the "special" people of the world are oh-so superior.
    it is obvious that you do not know what 'sour grapes' means. it doesn't make us feel superior, but you are feeling slighted because you do not get your way and God at the same time. you have to change
    I am happier without a god.

    If you could proof to me, 100% certain, that there was a god, I would still not try to 'save my soul'. He would not have the right to demand my worship, and if he is omniscient, he would not expect it of me.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Archaeologist

    Please answer these questions directly:

    1)Do you not see the analogues of morals in other animals?

    2)How does the concept of a god differ from an ultimate alpha male argument?

    3)Do you honestly feel that every aspect of the Bible has been proven as fact, without using a god concept as justification for doing so?

    4)Do you really think that ALL evidence that directly contradicts your beliefs were concocted specifically to avoid attributing it to a God?

    5)Do you really feel that it is impossible to live a full, rich and moral life without a god in your life?

    6)What is you refutation for the explanation of death I gave? (What would organisms eat if they lived forever and procreated at the same time).
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    the purpose for death and aging is described here
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Just because several atheists are pompous jackasses doesn't mean all of us are. Don't lump us together like that, or else you run the course of being as ignorant and arrogant as those you lament and whine about
    right so don't lump all christians inwith those who claim to be christian and accuse them of doing acts whenthey are innocent.

    atheists lump all christians together without knowing the facts and then blame God for things he did not do either.

    but, suffice to say, Onfray and Hitchens are among the worst. Sam Harris is a little more humble, read up on him, but also understand, that atheist take into account that the ideals of evolution, biology, physics, chemistry, are all accurate, despite what the bible says
    right just as i take into account many things which you fail to recognize then bash me withyour assumptions. defending these people doesn't help you.

    Free to believe, not free to act
    are you sure about that?

    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitut...lofrights.html

    'free exercise' means practice here.

    alternate realities where people are made of jelly
    fail. you already know what 'alternatives' are, what 'reality' is and what 'jelly' is so your argument destroys itself.

    We say there is no god based on the impression given by all evidence, years of searching, and in my case at least, years spent believing with my prayers unanswered.
    you failed because you did not do it God's way or you dismissed anything that points to God attributing such evidence to an alternative idea which is false.

    You believe there is a god by gut instinct.
    wrong. we did it God's way and found the truth.

    You most certainly don't have the right to inject your myths and superstitions into society.
    answered above and you do not like it becuase it reminds you how wrong you are.

    The gibberish spouted there is equivalent to a child holding their hands over their eyes in the belief they cannot be seen
    sorry you must be talking about yourself as unless you have done so, you cannot say that God does not exist.

    when you get honest then come and talk to me./
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    I NEVER LUMPED CHRISTIANS AS A WHOLE!!! So don't LUMP me! I did NOT defend them, learn how to read, THEN you may respond to me! EVERY post you make only shows how ignorant YOU are to the world around you, I make my attacks based SOLLY on what YOU have said and NOTHING else! I have NO preconceived notions on who you are, nor what you believe, based on your religion. YOU, however, make assumptions about ME because I am NOT christian. The slander you put out is baseless and immoral. I will never say that all christians are stupid, ignorant, baseless, unintelligent, nor outright wrong because not all christians are. YOU, however, have shown me the opposite with your inability to comprehend what we say to you. And YOU will make those assumptions that ALL atheists are stupid, wrong, ignorant, baseless, immoral and unintelligent, because YOU are a Bigot!! Piss of Arch, Your agenda is false, and YOU, not CHRISTIANS as a whole, Have a messed up ideology, that I can use your contradictory bible with just a few historically recorded (by the people who did them) dates. no fancy radiometric dating, no science, just simple recorded history.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    rant ignored. taking things too personally.

    oh and your link did not 'explain' the existence of aging or death. i checked it twice.

    1)Do you not see the analogues of morals in other animals?

    2)How does the concept of a god differ from an ultimate alpha male argument?

    3)Do you honestly feel that every aspect of the Bible has been proven as fact, without using a god concept as justification for doing so?

    4)Do you really think that ALL evidence that directly contradicts your beliefs were concocted specifically to avoid attributing it to a God?

    5)Do you really feel that it is impossible to live a full, rich and moral life without a god in your life?

    6)What is you refutation for the explanation of death I gave? (What would organisms eat if they lived forever and procreated at the same time).
    when i get time.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    rant ignored.
    nothing new under the sun there.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    oh and your link did not 'explain' the existence of aging or death.
    aging is fairly simple to answer. we're huge colonies of cells trying their best to keep a system running that benefits the whole organism.
    but the world is not perfect, and various things will affect how this system works.
    you have the constant UV bombardment from the sun, bacterias, viruses,
    and poor maintenance of the body. you have poisons in the air, in the soil, everywhere, both natural, and human made.
    all of this leads to the gradual detorioration of the body, and finally death.
    over millions of years, natural selection came to a point which estimated that 35-40 years was the average expected lifespan of a human being. so all of the organs of the body will only last for about that long, and after that its a steady downhill slope.
    but there is in fact organism that can live for 10 000 years, or more. these kinds of organisms was more common back millions of years ago, but theres a forest in australia which is actually just one single huge tree.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    because you attack at the personal level Archy.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    sorry you must be talking about yourself as unless you have done so
    Still using logic from the kindergarten playground?

    you cannot say that God does not exist.
    Yet, you're free to say god does exist? I'm not saying anything about your god, I'm saying your claims about god's existence are worthless.

    when you get honest then come and talk to me./
    You haven't demonstrated a shred of honesty yourself, which is quite obvious and expected from someone who has been indoctrinated into a cult.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    Interestingly enough, I went to Applebees with a couple friends yesterday. While eating my delicious plate of mashed potatoes a couple a few tables up in the corner quietly said grace and began to eat. My friend had seen it, although I don't think anyone else did. He told me they said grace and seemed puzzled at my nonchalant response. "but, they are forcing their beliefs on us." he said. I was kind of surprised. He seemed to genuinely believe that.

    There is a lot of talk about theists forcing their beliefs on people, but what exactly does that entail? Mormons and Jehova's witnesses knocking on your door asking if you want to talk about God? Members of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting American soldier's funerals? A person silently praying in public?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    your first example would be close to a force, the protests are a force and are flat out wrong, a silent prayer in public is BS. If you want to make the claim that a couple, sitting out to dinner, public or no, saying a silent prayer of thanks to God is fine. You aren't going table to table saying "praise Jesus for your food. DO IT!" or anything like that. it's a personal thing, and if we allow people to go talk business, culture, and all other things pertaining to a social structure at Applebee's, why not allow a quite prayer of thanks to god?
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathamatition
    your first example would be close to a force, the protests are a force and are flat out wrong, a silent prayer in public is BS. If you want to make the claim that a couple, sitting out to dinner, public or no, saying a silent prayer of thanks to God is fine. You aren't going table to table saying "praise Jesus for your food. DO IT!" or anything like that. it's a personal thing, and if we allow people to go talk business, culture, and all other things pertaining to a social structure at Applebee's, why not allow a quite prayer of thanks to god?
    Agreed
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Quote Originally Posted by hokie
    The way he talked to me makes me think he's no more than mid teens.

    Look at his ramblings, poor spelling, disconnected thoughts, ... Has teenager written all over it.
    I'll guess late thirties, early forties. Why does that matter?
    It doesn't really matter, I was just curious. Personally I would guess something like 14-16. That would have been my initial guess anyway, but the fact that he doesn't want to tell us his age makes me suspect all the more that he's very young.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    There is a lot of talk about theists forcing their beliefs on people, but what exactly does that entail?
    The two main examples would be 1) trying to pass laws to force everyone to live according to christian rules, even if they aren't christian, and 2) forcibly taking money from people and then using it to promote their religion or further its goals.

    Praying loudly in public or constantly trying to convert people by going door to door etc. doesn't really qualify as forcing your religion on people, although it could certainly qualify as rude and annoying.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    but, they are forcing their beliefs on us." he said. I was kind of surprised. He seemed to genuinely believe that.
    what your friend doesn't realize is that it is the atheist forcing their beliefs upon others. m. ohare didn't want prayer in school so she forced her way on millions of people using the courts.

    the atheist has no argument as the are far more guilty than the christians they accuse.

    you're free to say god does exist? I'm not saying anything about your god, I'm saying your claims about god's existence are worthless.
    back your accusations up. you cannot say God does not exist because you have not gone everywhere and looked at everything. you have nothing to support your claim yet i have millions of changed lives and the restoration of israel to back mine up.

    you are the one looking foolish not me.

    aging is fairly simple to answer. we're huge colonies of cells trying their best to keep a system running that benefits the whole organism.
    but the world is not perfect, and various things will affect how this system works
    again you are not doing anything but explaining the how. you still cannot explain the why those things exist. there is no room for their existence in your alternative theories.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    p.s.-- i have stopped readng that book by Onfray. i bought it to understand more but all i got was one dishonest accusation after another, no real research just the repeating of hearsay evidence and outlandish stories.

    nothing credible was used to present a good argument for his position and it just got old and tiring reading the same things (just different examples) in every chapter.

    i see thatthe resiodent atheists here have decioded not to present their positions even though they have said that Onfray was like dawkins or harris which tells me that they are afraid to talk about their non-beliefs and that they may hold similar ideas as Onfray and other militant atheists.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    but, they are forcing their beliefs on us." he said. I was kind of surprised. He seemed to genuinely believe that.
    what your friend doesn't realize is that it is the atheist forcing their beliefs upon others. m. ohare didn't want prayer in school so she forced her way on millions of people using the courts.

    the atheist has no argument as the are far more guilty than the christians they accuse.

    you're free to say god does exist? I'm not saying anything about your god, I'm saying your claims about god's existence are worthless.
    back your accusations up. you cannot say God does not exist because you have not gone everywhere and looked at everything. you have nothing to support your claim yet i have millions of changed lives and the restoration of israel to back mine up.

    you are the one looking foolish not me.

    aging is fairly simple to answer. we're huge colonies of cells trying their best to keep a system running that benefits the whole organism.
    but the world is not perfect, and various things will affect how this system works
    again you are not doing anything but explaining the how. you still cannot explain the why those things exist. there is no room for their existence in your alternative theories.
    you know, i've been wondering who you reminded me of, and now its become pretty clear: mahmoud ahmedinejad.



    thats what happends if you get a fundie in power, in a deeply religious state.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    but, they are forcing their beliefs on us." he said. I was kind of surprised. He seemed to genuinely believe that.
    what your friend doesn't realize is that it is the atheist forcing their beliefs upon others. m. ohare didn't want prayer in school so she forced her way on millions of people using the courts.
    This is not forcing atheism on them. It does not force them to become atheist, or even attempt to.

    It does, however, prevent forcing christianity on non-christians.

    As an atheist who went to a deeply christian school, I would have loved not to have been forced to pretend to pray. However, objecting to it was more trouble than it was worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    the atheist has no argument as the are far more guilty than the christians they accuse.
    Not so. I promote atheism only in defence to the promotion of religion, or sometimes if bored.

    :wink:

    I don't care what people belive; I am more bothered about what they do

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    you're free to say god does exist? I'm not saying anything about your god, I'm saying your claims about god's existence are worthless.
    back your accusations up. you cannot say God does not exist because you have not gone everywhere and looked at everything.
    You miss the point. Something cannot be assumed to be true untill there is sufficient evidence to base this assumption upon.

    Indirect evidence from mistranslated accounts of eye-witnesses to events which may have proved the existance of some sort of spiritual force is not proof for god. No matter how you try to argue it.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    you have nothing to support your claim
    :?

    Hypocrit!

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    yet i have millions of changed lives and the restoration of israel to back mine up.
    I have millions of Christianity -> atheism converts to back my point up, what's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    you are the one looking foolish not me.
    A blatant lie...

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    aging is fairly simple to answer. we're huge colonies of cells trying their best to keep a system running that benefits the whole organism.
    but the world is not perfect, and various things will affect how this system works
    again you are not doing anything but explaining the how. you still cannot explain the why those things exist. there is no room for their existence in your alternative theories.
    There need not be a why.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #70  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    you know, i've been wondering who you reminded me of, and now its become pretty clear: mahmoud ahmedinejad.
    you need to send that cartoon to hokie, he is the one living n denial.

    This is not forcing atheism on them
    yes it is. stop justifying her actions and others like her just because they do what you like.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  72. #71  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    what your friend doesn't realize is that it is the atheist forcing their beliefs upon others. m. ohare didn't want prayer in school so she forced her way on millions of people using the courts.
    M ohare may have been an Atheist, but a Christian RECENTLY (within the past 15 years) brought a lawsuit against a school district for having prayer in school and she was a CHRISTIAN.

    again you are not doing anything but explaining the how. you still cannot explain the why those things exist. there is no room for their existence in your alternative theories.
    I think I told you this before... The how and the why are the same thing.

    How does something work.
    Well, the cogs turn it and that is what makes it a machine..

    Why does something work.
    Well, the cogs turn it and that is what makes it a machine..

    See? SAME THING.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  73. #72  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    yes it is. stop justifying her actions and others like her just because they do what you like.
    I have a question for you. If there is a secular school comprised of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, and Christians.. Do you think that at the beginning of the day and right before lunch/sports, there should be manditory prayer where you HAVE to pray?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  74. #73  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    "thats what happends if you get a fundie in power, in a deeply religious state."


    Please explain this statement sir. You are still talking about Iran, right, because if you are talking about the crimes of Nazi Germany, I believe you fell asleep in history class.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  75. #74  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    1) trying to pass laws to force everyone to live according to christian rules, even if they aren't christian
    i would be against christians making new laws to force all people to follow their beliefs BUT i would also be against non-believers striking down laws just because their roots are in christianity.

    As an atheist who went to a deeply christian school, I would have loved not to have been forced to pretend to pray. However, objecting to it was more trouble than it was worth.
    but again we have people laying charges against believers without understanding what motivated them to enforce such policies. they rather make a blanket condemnation than seek to grasp what was really going on.

    Not so. I promote atheism only in defence to the promotion of religion, or sometimes if bored.
    two examples: the atheist wanting the words 'under God' removed from the pledge and the others who want 'in God we trust' removed from american money. that is forcing atheistic beliefs upon a nation that was once known as a christian country (whether it was or not is anohter discussion).

    if atheists do not like it, they can start their own schools and teach what they want.

    I have millions of Christianity -> atheism converts to back my point up, what's your point
    they are proving the Bible true.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  76. #75  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    "thats what happends if you get a fundie in power, in a deeply religious state."


    Please explain this statement sir. You are still talking about Iran, right, because if you are talking about the crimes of Nazi Germany, I believe you fell asleep in history class.
    Ahmadinejad is a well known Holocaust denier and anti-semite.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  77. #76  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    but our millions prove the bible wrong
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  78. #77  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    How, exactly? Billions believe that the bible is a truth, so that must mean your millions are wrong.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  79. #78  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    how bout my 4 billion that don't believe the bible? i.e. all non Judaism based faiths PLUS atheists/freethinkers/agnostic/humanist/etc./etc.? Are we ALL wrong, or are YOU wrong? majority rule says you.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  80. #79  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    THE TOPIC IS ABOUT ATHEISM and i have asked the residnet atheists to fill me in on their ideas, sans evolution, yetthey have failed to do so.

    why are they afraid to talk about their non-beliefs and why they hold them? i know it is easier to sit on the sidelines and point out the mistakes made by those in the 'game' but their time has come and they have been substituted in and now need to pony up seriously, honestly and with credibility.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  81. #80  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    THE TOPIC IS ABOUT ATHEISM and i have asked the residnet atheists to fill me in on their ideas, sans evolution, yetthey have failed to do so.

    why are they afraid to talk about their non-beliefs and why they hold them? i know it is easier to sit on the sidelines and point out the mistakes made by those in the 'game' but their time has come and they have been substituted in and now need to pony up seriously, honestly and with credibility.
    I have asked a few questions which illustrates some of the reasons why I am an atheist. Have you gotten around to thinking about them yet?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  82. #81  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    THE TOPIC IS ABOUT ATHEISM and i have asked the residnet atheists to fill me in on their ideas, sans evolution, yetthey have failed to do so.
    Suggest you start another thread. This one started with a book that seemed designed to simply attack Christianity rather than put forth it's own views about how to live a fulfilling life sans god(s).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  83. #82  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Arch, please answer my question.

    I have a question for you. If there is a secular school comprised of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, and Christians.. Do you think that at the beginning of the day and right before lunch/sports, there should be manditory prayer where you HAVE to pray?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  84. #83  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    what kind of views are you looking for? ask me a question and I'll answer, but giving a book critic and asking my thoughts is kind of pointless, as I feel that book, along with Hitchens writing, is poppycock.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  85. #84  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    how bout my 4 billion that don't believe the bible? i.e. all non Judaism based faiths PLUS atheists/freethinkers/agnostic/humanist/etc./etc.? Are we ALL wrong, or are YOU wrong? majority rule says you.

    But, like your comment earlier about millions, proof that someone's beliefs are void and false? You need evidence if you wish to put forward proof that something is or is not false and you cant do that with religion. Besides, numbers do not increase or decrease the validity of an argument.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  86. #85  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,255
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    THE TOPIC IS ABOUT ATHEISM and i have asked the residnet atheists to fill me in on their ideas, sans evolution, yetthey have failed to do so.
    What exactly do you expect?

    As far as my atheist ideas go: there is no god, there is no purpose or meaning behind anything.

    What more is there to say regarding atheism?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  87. #86  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Arch, please answer my question.

    I have a question for you. If there is a secular school comprised of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, and Christians.. Do you think that at the beginning of the day and right before lunch/sports, there should be manditory prayer where you HAVE to pray?
    Archaeologist, please answer me on this issue and quit avoiding the question. I am seriously interested in what you have to say about this question. PLEASE respond to me. It has been a few days and you have yet to respond to my question. Are you simply ignoring my question? If so, why?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  88. #87  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    please answer me on this issue and quit avoiding the question. I am seriously interested in what you have to say about this question. PLEASE respond to me. It has been a few days and you have yet to respond to my question. Are you simply ignoring my question? If so, why?
    it is almost 6 a.m. here & i have been asleep. how could be avoiding your question when i do not know when you repeatedly ask it without waiting for me to get up.

    how about a mandatory prayer time when each gets to pray silently? why should everyone be forced to pray a christian prayer when they are not christian? Jesus is not about forcing people to follow His will, they do have a choice.

    As far as my atheist ideas go: there is no god, there is no purpose or meaning behind anything.
    why?

    What more is there to say regarding atheism?
    you are all hot and bothered about christians not understanding you so now is your chance to provide the information needed so they can. if you can't then why adhere to it at all, denial is nothing more than excuse.

    what kind of views are you looking for? ask me a question and I'll answer, but giving a book critic and asking my thoughts is kind of pointless, as I feel that book, along with Hitchens writing, is poppycock.
    well then say that and explain why you think it is 'poppycock'. being silent doesn't help dispell misunderstanding.

    Suggest you start another thread. This one started with a book that seemed designed to simply attack Christianity rather than put forth it's own views about how to live a fulfilling life sans god(s).
    and you are incapable of countering the book just because it started off with a critique?

    I have asked a few questions which illustrates some of the reasons why I am an atheist. Have you gotten around to thinking about them yet?
    i do not recall seeing them.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  89. #88  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    how about a mandatory prayer time when each gets to pray silently? why should everyone be forced to pray a christian prayer when they are not christian? Jesus is not about forcing people to follow His will, they do have a choice.
    What if they are not religious? Do they have to pray then?
    Mandatory means that it is FORCED.
    What O'hair fought against was mandatory prayer to a Christian deity. She did not fight against people praying to themselves. She fought against FORCED prayer. This is not an atheistic agenda. It is an equality agenda.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  90. #89  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Mandatory means that it is FORCED.
    you are deliberately distorting the definition of the word 'mandatory' to make it seem that all peopl have to pray when in reality the application simply means that a certain amount of time has been set aside for prayer.

    mandatory prayer time does NOT mean one is forced to pray but that that time is observed without alternatives.

    What O'hair fought against was mandatory prayer to a Christian deity. She did not fight against people praying to themselves. She fought against FORCED prayer. This is not an atheistic agenda. It is an equality agenda
    it was an atheistic issue and had nothing to do with equality. i figure you were not alive at the time and rely on biased accounts for your information. there was nothing unequal about it, all children were allowed to pray, just because a christian prayer was used does it mean the act itself was being christian only.

    the Bible tells us that vain repititon is useless with God and repeating the same prayer each day accomplished only 1 thing, to remind children that there is a supreme being who is over all and that he has rules.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  91. #90  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    you are deliberately distorting the definition of the word 'mandatory' to make it seem that all peopl have to pray when in reality the application simply means that a certain amount of time has been set aside for prayer.
    man⋅da⋅to⋅ry   /ˈmndəˌtɔri, -ˌtoʊri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [man-duh-tawr-ee, -tohr-ee] Show IPA adjective, noun, plural -ries.
    adjective 1. authoritatively ordered; obligatory; compulsory: It is mandatory that all students take two years of math.
    2. pertaining to, of the nature of, or containing a command.
    3. Law. permitting no option; not to be disregarded or modified: a mandatory clause.
    4. having received a mandate, as a nation

    Mandatory prayer means to have no option of praying or not. You MUST pray. It is FORCED upon you. The way you said it makes it seem like it is an option and time is set aside for you to do whatever religious thing you want. That is not what O'hair was fighting against. She was fighting against MANDATORY (FORCED) Prayer, mainly the CHRISTIAN kind which was in secular schools.

    it was an atheistic issue and had nothing to do with equality. i figure you were not alive at the time and rely on biased accounts for your information. there was nothing unequal about it, all children were allowed to pray, just because a christian prayer was used does it mean the act itself was being christian only.
    And children are still allowed to pray in schools. What she fought against is the teacher saying, "Ok now children, put away your pencils and paper and pray to God" That is what she fought against. Do you not know anything? Because of her efforts, children are no longer forced to pray in school. Because of her efforts, we can have a SECULAR society which is much more tolerant than a CHRISTIAN society.

    the Bible tells us that vain repititon is useless with God and repeating the same prayer each day accomplished only 1 thing, to remind children that there is a supreme being who is over all and that he has rules.
    And if you tell a hindu child to pray to the Christian God, their parents are going to be furious with you. Do you not understand this concept?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  92. #91  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    and you are incapable of countering the book just because it started off with a critique?
    From the little you've written I'd probably agree with much that's in the book--so why would I counter it?

    I just think it not the best format to get to what ever questions you have about how an atheist thinks about certain subjects--particularly since you highlighted the parts of the book which attack Christians. Attacking Christians isn't of much interest to me unless that opinion, for no other reason that it is Christian, is forced by law into my life, those I care about. or in a way that erodes the basic protections of secular society.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  93. #92  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Attacking Christians isn't of much interest to me unless that opinion, for no other reason that it is Christian, is forced by law into my life, those I care about. or in a way that erodes the basic protections of secular society.
    so you are saying you will accept the parts of christianity that you benefit from or would you like the laws banning murder, theft, purgery, andother biblicals laws stricken from the law codes?

    Mandatory prayer means to have no option of praying or not. You MUST pray. It is FORCED upon you. The way you said it makes it seem like it is an option and time is set aside for you to do whatever religious thing you want. That is not what O'hair was fighting against. She was fighting against MANDATORY (FORCED) Prayer, mainly the CHRISTIAN kind which was in secular schools
    i am beginning to wonder about your comprehension. if yo had read my post you would have seen where i said: madatory prayer TIME, NOT mandatory prayer. your application of the word madatory and forced is distorted.

    And if you tell a hindu child to pray to the Christian God, their parents are going to be furious with you. Do you not understand this concept
    what i see is you making a mountain out of a molehill withyour distorted ideas of what others are saying and doing.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  94. #93  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    i am beginning to wonder about your comprehension. if yo had read my post you would have seen where i said: madatory prayer TIME, NOT mandatory prayer. your application of the word madatory and forced is distorted.
    You're a moron.
    If you said, "Optional prayer time" then I wouldn't have a problem with that because it's OPTIONAL. If you say, "Mandatory prayer time" then you are saying you have to pray during that time. You can't do something else. IF you said that schools should have a mandatory prayer time which are optional for students then that is ALSO different.
    WHAT the FUCK definition are you talking about? If you don't describe your definitions then you can't tell someone they have horrible reading comprehension since it is YOU who is failing to communicate what is on your mind.
    Remember
    Mandatory prayer time means that students MUST pray
    Mandatory prayer time set aside for students who have an optional enrollment means that a school MUST have prayer time set aside but students may choose to partake.
    Optional prayer time for students means basically the same thing as mandatory prayer time set aside for students who have optional enrollment.
    BUT you said Mandatory prayer time. You did not describe your definition of mandatory prayer time. If you do not describe your definitions of what YOU think they mean, we must rely on the dictionary to depict what the meaning is. Unfortunately for you, I linked the dictionary definition and it stated that it is NOT OPTIONAL.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
    Reply With Quote  
     

  95. #94  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    i am beginning to wonder about your comprehension. if yo had read my post you would have seen where i said: madatory prayer TIME, NOT mandatory prayer. your application of the word madatory and forced is distorted.
    Mandatory means a requirement by rule. This is a definition you're clearly unaware of due to your refusal to consult a dictionary or your penchant to lie.

    Of course, based on your logic, you would be "mandated" to pray towards Mecca five times a day.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  96. #95  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    I have asked a few questions which illustrates some of the reasons why I am an atheist. Have you gotten around to thinking about them yet?


    i do not recall seeing them.

    Archaeologist

    Please answer these questions directly:

    1)Do you not see the analogues of morals in other animals?

    2)How does the concept of a god differ from an ultimate alpha male argument?

    3)Do you honestly feel that every aspect of the Bible has been proven as fact, without using a god concept as justification for doing so?

    4)Do you really think that ALL evidence that directly contradicts your beliefs were concocted specifically to avoid attributing it to a God?

    5)Do you really feel that it is impossible to live a full, rich and moral life without a god in your life?

    6)What is you refutation for the explanation of death I gave? (What would organisms eat if they lived forever and procreated at the same time).
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  97. #96  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Attacking Christians isn't of much interest to me unless that opinion, for no other reason that it is Christian, is forced by law into my life, those I care about. or in a way that erodes the basic protections of secular society.
    so you are saying you will accept the parts of christianity that you benefit from or would you like the laws banning murder, theft, purgery, andother biblicals laws stricken from the law codes?
    Why engage in this false dichotomy? Christianity has lot of good ideas which directly overlap with other faiths as well as laws derived based entirely on secular reasoning. For example, almost every culture agrees its generally it's a bad idea for individuals to decide to murder other people--that's a decision left to the community in some fashion as a form of punishment, starting or fighting a wars etc. Societies that sanction theft generally aren't very efficient and for that reason it established laws against it. That being said though there's still some baggage in many faiths that are either obsolete and don't fit the vast difference in situation between the bronze age they were established in and modern life--or simply don't honor the basic human rights we've come to accept since the magna carter etc. The supreme court ruled many years ago that it took more than religion to uphold a law particularly if it restricted any rights --it took a clear well reasoned independent argument that demonstrated its necessity for the common good and other reasons.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  98. #97  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    In the phrase mandatory prayer time, the words prayer time are a composite noun. As such the interpetation verzen and others have placed on this phrase are correct. Archaeologist, as he has written it, is advocating that prayer, at certain times, would be mandatory.

    Archaelogist, if you can set aside for a few moments any prejudicial thoughts you have on my views, then consider this. There is ample evidence in your posts that your English language skills have definite limitations. (That's a polite way of syaing they suck.) It would therefore make sense if you were to make more of an effort to structure and word your posts carefully. We could then spend more time debating what you mean, rather than what you said.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  99. #98  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    no, he can't. He doesn;t have time to view the idea's of us "atheists" as we are non-believers. He makes me very VERY curious at times...
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  100. #99  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    If you said, "Optional prayer time" then I wouldn't have a problem with that because it's OPTIONAL. If you say, "Mandatory prayer time" then you are saying you have to pray during that time.
    you wouldbe wrong. when you were in school and you had 'mandatory' study time...did every one study? of course not. it was time set aside for it but it rarely took place.

    Mandatory means a requirement by rule. This is a definition you're clearly unaware of due to your refusal to consult a dictionary or your penchant to lie.

    Of course, based on your logic, you would be "mandated" to pray towards Mecca five times a day.
    sorry but you are being most literal even though you accuse christians of being literal. it ics very clear that you pick and choose what you want to believe when you want to believe it.

    Please answer these questions directly:
    learn to be patient. ask me again and i won't do it.

    The supreme court ruled many years ago that it took more than religion to uphold a law particularly if it restricted any rights
    yet you ignore the fact that almost all laws from almost all countries of the world took them from the Bible and God's morality. even many of your school's rules are found in the Bible.

    you can't escape it.

    In the phrase mandatory prayer time, the words prayer time are a composite noun. As such the interpetation verzen and others have placed on this phrase are correct. Archaeologist, as he has written it, is advocating that prayer, at certain times, would be mandatory.
    this is no surprise and they are not correct except inthe most literalsense. and apply your second paragraph to yourself.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  101. #100  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist

    yet you ignore the fact that almost all laws from almost all countries of the world took them from the Bible and God's morality. even many of your school's rules are found in the Bible.
    Considering the rules you mentioned are also part of cultures that predate and or have little to do with Abrahamic traditions (e.g. China, Polynesia, Australian natives, Eskimo etc ) it's a hard to case to make that they come from the bible. Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on good ideas. They are good ideas common to nearly all societies--In our case it's probably closer to say we kept those traditional laws because they continued to make sense. Many other laws, even ones with sharp warnings from god never to change, such as the directive to kill others of different religions trying to solicit your family were changed between the OT and NT. Even modern forms of Christianity are in stark contrast with the form of Christianity practiced for the first 1500 years as many traditional laws were discarded or just ignored (e.g scriptural arguments for the oppression of women, racism etc). We're watching Muslim faith go through a similar transition, but it will probably be more difficult because their history seldom put them into a position of weakness which necessitated a more tolerant and tender interpretations of their faith that Christianity had to develop during its early years when it was an oppressed religionor in the past few centuries as part of secular society.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •