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Thread: A Solution for Peace

  1. #1 A Solution for Peace 
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    A Solution

    By using SUBLIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY, I have come to provide a solution for the ME wars and any other ones derived from the OT.

    The Jewish OT is 'wrong' in its presintation of religion as it should be practiced.

    The current war there could be ended if the Jews DUMP their religion and make these corrections that would restore the dignity of the Arabs by correcting the name of their father (AbraHAM) of Israel to be portrayed as a man, not a HAM.
    He fathered two sons named Ishmael and Isaac that I would consider to be the birth of Israel.
    So he should be renamed ABRA and then they could name the 'Star of David' as the 'Star of Abra'.
    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews.

    The OT is wrong in its source of sin by using a woman as a sinner. This is utter nonsence. By restoring the dignity of the women, Islam could change its war against women.
    They could also dump the source of sin as 'the eating of fruit' from a tree that is insulting to the APES.
    We are descendants of the Chimpanzees as our 'ancient' anscestors.

    Then the Jews could also eliminate the concept of a Jewicidal deity that uses these mass killings as a cleansing ritual for tne cult.
    Notice the correction of the spelling for this evil word that originated in the OT that is the source of this ritual.
    The 1st 3 commandments promote this as a 'one god concept'.

    These are the main points of providing peace in the ME and any other regions of the planet.

    Do not get me wrong because I support the restablishment of the Israel nation, but as a 'secular' state with its Hebrew language.

    Cosmo


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    um wait what?

    jew's should change there religion just to make peice with other religions?
    incase you cant use context, that's what's called appesment.
    i would only hope you know where and when the term 'appesment' has also been used in history.

    'Star of David' as the 'Star of Abra'
    uh yeah, im not a jew, nor do i know a lot about event in the bible, but i do believe that david was the person that freeed the jews from egyption enslavement.
    i dont think that thats going to happen just to stop a terrorist orgonization to stop attacking them.

    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews
    uh, no! the arab forces that attack jews are religios terroist groups, that see the jews as infidels that do not believe in there religion. making a few changes to idolize Arabs is not going to stop them from attacking them.


    By restoring the dignity of the women, Islam could change its war against women
    uh what 'war' against women? oh do you mean the covering of the women in those long all covering robes?
    oh yeah right, every nation should have there women look like sluts.
    infact mabey you should ask some women in that part of the world if it really matters to them.

    in fact hell go over to Israel, and ask any of the people over there if they give a rats ass what our 'sophisticated' nations think. last i remember you arnt threatened with suicide bombings 24/7

    i really cant tell if your post is a joke, or if your really serious. hell while we're at it why dont the Arabs change ther reiligion?

    i mean, arnt arabs the aggresors anyways? dont Arabs have some sort of quote in there religious text that they are to wage war against other religions? Kill for there religion?


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  4. #3 Re: A Solution for Peace 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews.
    The only thing that would "pacify" the Arabs is to have a global Muslim state.
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    Slayer

    Did you read the bible?

    Abraham was the 1st to create the OT religion by being the 1st to establish a Covenant with this spirit YHWH. So this portrays Abraham to be a reprentative of the Holy Land by adding HAM to his personna?
    The Holy Land is and should be represented by a female as the Roman church uses with the Mother and Child concept.
    A male has only ONE hole, so you cannot create any babies with that one hole.
    Ha ha.

    So remove the HAM and lable him as ABRA. His name also identifies with the Arabs. So you can consider the Jewish religion as a product of the 1st Semite religion by a Semite. His sons identify with the name of the country Israel.
    This psychology here explains it all.

    So by using a male for a HAM, I would consider that to be an insult to the Arabs.
    So this is probably why the Arabs are so committed to exterminate the Jews.
    Since their YHWH is doing the same for their sins of violating the 1st 3 commandments, why not face reality and quit insulting the Arabs and also their implications of the females and blacks (Apes) as sinners?

    The OT is a doctrine of hate!'

    Cosmo
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  6. #5  
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    This was a duplicate.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo

    So remove the HAM and lable him as ABRA.

    So by using a male for a HAM, I would consider that to be an insult to the Arabs.
    Is that why ham isn't kosher?
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  8. #7 Re: A Solution for Peace 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    A Solution

    By using SUBLIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY, I have come to provide a solution for the ME wars and any other ones derived from the OT.

    The Jewish OT is 'wrong' in its presintation of religion as it should be practiced.

    The current war there could be ended if the Jews DUMP their religion and make these corrections that would restore the dignity of the Arabs by correcting the name of their father (AbraHAM) of Israel to be portrayed as a man, not a HAM.
    You could call him BrahMAN, instead.

    So he should be renamed ABRA
    A bra doesn't have the same testosterone level to it, IMO.
    Do not get me wrong because I support the restablishment of the Israel nation, but as a 'secular' state with its Hebrew language.
    Why Hebrew? Who speaks Hebrew?
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    The OT is wrong in its source of sin by using a woman as a sinner. This is utter nonsence. By restoring the dignity of the women, Islam could change its war against women.
    They could also dump the source of sin as 'the eating of fruit' from a tree that is insulting to the APES.
    That's Genesis, from the Bible. Not the Old Testament.

    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews.
    It's the other way around. Israel is attacking the Palestinians, not the Arabs, as you can see from the news. The Palestinians haven't even touched Israel for a long time.

    By using SUBLIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY, I have come to provide a solution for the ME wars and any other ones derived from the OT.
    SUBLIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY, eh? Weird.

    The current war there could be ended if the Jews DUMP their religion and make these corrections that would restore the dignity of the Arabs by correcting the name of their father (AbraHAM) of Israel to be portrayed as a man, not a HAM.
    He fathered two sons named Ishmael and Isaac that I would consider to be the birth of Israel.
    So he should be renamed ABRA and then they could name the 'Star of David' as the 'Star of Abra'.
    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews
    So, by getting rid of their religion, Jews will no longer be Jews but will no longer war? Makes no sense. Israel is fighting a war it started. Doing this would be no use unless Israel opens its arms towards the Palestinians.

    Besides, Christ was a Jew, in case you did not know.

    The 1st 3 commandments promote this as a 'one god concept'.
    So does Islam. So does Christianity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by slayer-72
    that's what's called appesment.
    i would only hope you know where and when the term 'appesment' has also been used in history.
    The arabs are insulted by what I said/think. So by eliminating the insult, you call that appeasement?"
    I call that GOOD manners .

    david was the person that freeed the jews from egyption enslavement.
    i dont think that thats going to happen just to stop a terrorist orgonization to stop attacking them.
    I am not an expert on the bible either but what I read, it was Moses that freed the jews from slavery.
    I think David was the originator of the 'one god concept' as a successful warrior.

    oh yeah right, every nation should have there women look like sluts.
    Which is worse? Being reduced to an ignorant farm animal used as breeding stock or being a 'loving woman serving the batchelers with the natural God sactified heterosexual method of this driving force of nature between man and women?

    i really cant tell if your post is a joke, or if your really serious. hell while we're at it why dont the Arabs change ther reiligion?
    The Arabs did not insult the Jews.

    i mean, arnt arabs the aggresors anyways? dont Arabs have some sort of quote in there religious text that they are to wage war against other religions? Kill for there religion?
    Like I said, Islam is a COPY of the jewish religions 'one god concept.
    So the jews created this dinosaur.

    Cosmo
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  11. #10 Re: A Solution for Peace 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    This then should pacify the Arabs to stop their war against the Jews.
    The only thing that would "pacify" the Arabs is to have a global Muslim state.
    Blame the jews for that.
    They are the source of this 'one god concept' and every one of the copies follows this. And they all copy the Jewicide ritual the OT promote3s with those mass punishments.
    The jews also oppose abortions that contribute to this problem.

    Cosmo
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  12. #11  
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    Liongold

    The bible is divided into two sections. The Old Testament and the New Testament.

    The OT deals with the 'chauvinst Jewsw and the NT deals with Crists attempt to reform the evils of the OT

    Cosmo.
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    The OT deals with the 'chauvinst Jewsw and the NT deals with Crists attempt to reform the evils of the OT
    No. The New Testament can be considered, equally, a continuance of the Old testament, as it does not disagree with much that it has to say, apart from the fact the Christ is the Son of God. The New Testament, furthermore, is followed by Christians, and it does not get rid of the "chauvinism" that you believe permeates the Old Testament.

    Further, the bible conatins only the New Testament. The Old Testament is stored in the Torah.

    The New Testament also believes in monotheism, as you claim the Old Testament does.

    Blame the jews for that.
    They are the source of this 'one god concept' and every one of the copies follows this. And they all copy the Jewicide ritual the OT promote3s with those mass punishments.
    The jews also oppose abortions that contribute to this problem.
    I fail to understand you, Cosmo. For some reason, you insist on pursuing the idea that the Old Testament calls for the mass murder of Jews, when I have already told you that the Jews follow the Old Testament. No religion has ever called for the massacre of the adherents of another religion, apart from the Catholic Church during the Crusades. Hitler followed the idea that Jews must be exterminated, and Stalin was against religion entirely, as it had no place in Leninist communism, hence the "purges" which he ordered. Neither, apart from Hitler, in part, ever pursued genocide in the name of religion.

    Also, all religions oppose abortion; even the ancient Greeks, who prescribed to your pantheistic ideals, would have opposed it, as would the ancient Egyptians, the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas. The original Native Americans would never have approved it too.

    The arabs are insulted by what I said/think. So by eliminating the insult, you call that appeasement?"
    I call that GOOD manners .
    Which insult do you refer to?

    I am not an expert on the bible either but what I read, it was Moses that freed the jews from slavery.
    Correct. But if you are not an expert, I suggest you become one, or at least overly familiar with it.

    The Arabs did not insult the Jews.
    There was no insult from any side, and its Palestinians, and not Arabs.

    Like I said, Islam is a COPY of the jewish religions 'one god concept.
    So the jews created this dinosaur
    Islam is anything but a copy as you claim. Muhammed was influenced mainly by Christian edicts and his dislike for the pre-Islamic Arabian religion. This led him to create a new religion which embodified the one god concept, but was wholly different from Christinaity or the Old Testament itself. No other religion calls for prayers five time a day.
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    So.. If something is a copy, then by no means, that concept cant be changed slightly? All the abrahamic religions are basically the same. They just alter their context slightly over time. Ever heard of the telephone game? Thats exacly what they are doing in regards to religion.
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    I actually think this is a good idea but I think it would be better put to use to convert arabs to jews. Wouldnt you agree Cosmo?
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    Cosmo,
    I just posted this in another thread about the ME situation:

    To try to extract from that mess the rights or wrongs of the current situation requires more intellect, patience, knowledge and humanity than we can muster on this forum.

    I just wanted to thank you for the powerful demonstration of the truth of my statement, with your opening post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    I just wanted to thank you for the powerful demonstration of the truth of my statement, with your opening post.
    Agree 100%!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liongold
    That's Genesis, from the Bible. Not the Old Testament.
    The OT has a large number of books. Genesis is just one of a large number.

    So, by getting rid of their religion, Jews will no longer be Jews but will no longer war? Makes no sense. Israel is fighting a war it started. Doing
    this would be no use unless Israel opens its arms towards the Palestinians.
    What is Palastine? A Islamic country?

    Besides, Christ was a Jew, in case you did not know.
    Christ was a reformer that did not believe in the chauvinism of the OT jews.

    Cosmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    I actually think this is a good idea but I think it would be better put to use to convert arabs to jews. Wouldnt you agree Cosmo?
    I doubt the Arabs could be converted to any other religion. Their religion is TOO demanding and as a people, I think the Jews are more rational.

    My idea is to pacify the Arabs to remove the hate.

    Cosmo
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    Cosmo Im trying to illustrate a point. You're being bias. there is no reason the jews should concede nor the arabs and u have no reason to pick one over the other. Eliminating arab enemies isnt really solving the problem in the right way.

    Diplomacy and open discussion is the only way for them to resolve their differences without conceding their beliefs.
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    Cosmo Im trying to illustrate a point. You're being bias. there is no reason the jews should concede nor the arabs and u have no reason to pick one over the other. Eliminating arab enemies isnt really solving the problem in the right way.

    Diplomacy and open discussion is the only way for them to resolve their differences without conceding their beliefs.
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    One thing that seems to be going unsaid here is that Israel already is a basically secular state. The people who live there are Jewish more by ethnicity than by religion. Practicing Jews are consistently upset by the agnostic attitudes of most Jewish people in Israel.

    But as long was we are insisting they should speak ancient Hebrew there, maybe we should also insist the people of Rome return to speaking Latin. And, hey you Brits, lets bring back the olde English of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (do not read the Miller's Tale -- it is too bawdy and violent), or Sir Gawayn and the Grene Knyght or Beowulf.

    Take these first four lines from Sir Gawayn:

    Sithen the sege and the assault sesed at troye,
    The borgh brittened and brent to brondez and askez,
    The tulk that the trammes of tresoun ther wroght
    Watz tried for his trichery, the trewest on erthe.


    My bet is that there is not one Brit or American who posts on this forum who can tell what that says without finding a translation unless they have had a recent college class in early English and even then they would probably need a dictionary of old English words.

    Applying this to the OP which says "The Jewish OT is 'wrong' in its presintation of religion as it should be practiced." My question is if we don't even understand the early versions of our own language, how do we feel qualified to pass judgment on what some other even more ancient language has to say?
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    One thing that seems to be going unsaid here is that Israel already is a basically secular state. The people who live there are Jewish more by ethnicity than by religion. Practicing Jews are consistently upset by the agnostic attitudes of most Jewish people in Israel.

    But as long was we are insisting they should speak ancient Hebrew there, maybe we should also insist the people of Rome return to speaking Latin. And, hey you Brits, lets bring back the olde English of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (do not read the Miller's Tale -- it is too bawdy and violent), or Sir Gawayn and the Grene Knyght or Beowulf.

    Take these first four lines from Sir Gawayn:

    Sithen the sege and the assault sesed at troye,
    The borgh brittened and brent to brondez and askez,
    The tulk that the trammes of tresoun ther wroght
    Watz tried for his trichery, the trewest on erthe.


    My bet is that there is not one Brit or American who posts on this forum who can tell what that says without finding a translation unless they have had a recent college class in early English and even then they would probably need a dictionary of old English words.

    Applying this to the OP which says "The Jewish OT is 'wrong' in its presintation of religion as it should be practiced." My question is if we don't even understand the early versions of our own language, how do we feel qualified to pass judgment on what some other even more ancient language has to say?
    The subliminal psychology of words has a lot to do with our subconsciousness .

    I noticed that the 'M' words are portrayed as being wrong like the spelling with the large number of 'mis' prefixes.
    On the other hand, the 'P' words are the good words representing power and other good words. This, of course, points to the popes as the sources of these power words.

    Since the bible is nothing but words, then you have to consider the spelling of words as having subliminal meanings as well.
    That is why I introduced this topic for discussion as a source for the hate between the two semitic speaking peoples.

    Cosmo
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    ....what i dn,t get is, the islamic religion, christian religion and jewish religion come from abraham, but they seem to fight each other consistantly, it sad. the jewish and the islamic states/arabs can only live in peace if they can learn to "love thier neigbour as they love them self".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    ....what i dn,t get is, the islamic religion, christian religion and jewish religion come from abraham, but they seem to fight each other consistantly, it sad. the jewish and the islamic states/arabs can only live in peace if they can learn to "love thier neigbour as they love them self".
    Well, yes.
    Christ closed out his sermons with the statement 'love your enemies'.

    Well, you see how he was rewarded, being crucified because of the urgings of the 'chauvinist' jews. So the problem here is the jewish chauvinism as 'YHWH's chosen people'.
    So the jews promote hatred by their insults of Abraham as I have explauned and their sexism toward women and their racism towards the Apes with their 'original sin' that is nonsense.

    So the problem here is the jewish EGO.
    That is why I consider the jews as the source of this hatred between the Arabs and also others.

    So they should dump their reliogion and apologize to the Arabs for portraying AbraHAM as a ham (a--).

    Cosmo
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    What is Palastine? A Islamic country?
    Palestinians are part of an ethnic minority who are officially statelss; their real home is in Israel, and the Israel government is not allowing entry to them, and has gone so far as to attempt to declare war on them.

    I doubt the Arabs could be converted to any other religion. Their religion is TOO demanding and as a people, I think the Jews are more rational.
    Why not? Arabs and Muslims from all over the world have been known to convert, and I must ask why you consider Islam to be a demanding religion. It merely has five duties that followers must follow, and the most demanding is merely to pray to God five times a day. Hardly demanding, isn't it?

    Well, you see how he was rewarded, being crucified because of the urgings of the 'chauvinist' jews. So the problem here is the jewish chauvinism as 'YHWH's chosen people'.
    The Jews at that time were quite personally offended by Christ's claims to be the Son of God, and Christ being a Jew himself, he was crucified as a blasphemer and a heretic. It is no more different than the Church burning "witches" at the stake, because they believed they were witches.

    The origins of the Jewish religion are embedded in slavery, as a powerful counter-religion to the pantheistic, ritualistic religion of the Egyptians. The Jewish religion originated with the spirit of rebellion, and it is quite natural for it to reject pantheistic teachings in such an atmosphere.

    So the jews promote hatred by their insults of Abraham as I have explauned and their sexism toward women and their racism towards the Apes with their 'original sin' that is nonsense.
    Despite Abraham being a Jew? I don't quite follow you on that.

    Bear in mind that sexism was practised even before the Jews, by the Greeks. They did so because it was acceped that women were weaker and more cowardly than men; you cannot blame Jews for what originated and perpetuated through the Greeks.

    As for the apes, the Jewish religion existed before the the discovery of natural selection. With so many creation myths in the world, it is natural for a religion to believe people were created by God. Every religions' creation myth is different.

    y the way, I don't think you can classify racism for apes. Apes are hardly capable of human understanding, and wouldn't understand half of what we have done. How do you discriminate between an ape and a human?
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    we just gonna argue amoung our self that he not right and his is right and so on, the main thing is the palinstine are trying to ocupy a land they once had, which very unlikly because iseral has one of the most powerfull militery in the world and is backed by america due to thier christian faith, so it it is very likely that the palinstines will get the land back. if the jewish people drop thier religion, it will still not solve the suitation because the war that is happening now is basicaly about land, so if jewish people were to drop thier religion it won,t solve the problem. also hamas are terrioist organisation. if they did not fire rockect at the jewish the people lving in iserial i doubt there be any war to start with.
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    My Gods & people are better than yours now peace off my land or i will chop your heads off and feed them to the crocodiles.
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    Well, is obvious that history plays little role in what is being posted here. This recalls the old bromide:
    "Those who do not know the past are condemned to repeat it," said the famous Harvard philosopher George Santayana.
    So before we go off blaming whoever, let us first look at Jewish presence in the Holy Land as well as the presence of others.

    First of all, Abraham immigrated to that land from a city named Ur which was located in what is now Iraq. He and his family settled in and lived there for many years and in a deal with God, was promised ownership of some of the land forever.

    Later, in the midst of a regional famine, the entire family of Abraham's descendants uprooted themselves from "their" land and moved to the land of Goshen, an area of what is now Egypt.

    They lived there for approximately 400 years during which time other peoples made up city states which populated the Holy Land. We have come to call this area Palestine. But there has never been a political state called Palestine. Palestine merely refers to an area which was inhabited by a number of tribes and ethnic groups and so named by the British who assumed political administration of that territory following World War I.

    Somewhere around 1,500 BC, the family of Abraham, then numbering somewhere between 1 and 2 million people decided (or were directed by God) to return to their homeland in Palestine (although it was not so named at that time).

    In order to do that, it was necessary to evict the people who had moved in during the 400 years they were gone.

    Now then, among the mis-perceptions I see being perpetrated here is that the object of eviction were Arabs and/or Muslims. They were not -- they were Semetic people as were the Jews. Islam did not come into existence for another 2,000 years around (approximately) 500 AD. Arabs as a people group came to be identified as such perhaps a couple of centuries before.

    Meanwhile, back in the Holy Land (now Palestine), the Jews took control and politically controlled the land. This political administration was divided into two kingdoms and each was eventually dissolved by the invasions of other political groups -- first the Assyrians overtook the division called Israel in about 700 BC while the Babylonians overtook that part plus the other division called Judah in approximately 500 BC.

    From that point, Jews were never in political control of any of the land until the United Nations, following World War II, carved out a small area of Palestine administered by the British and awarded control of that area to a new nation to be called Israel.

    Following the fall of Israel and Judah to the Babylonians, the area was subsequently ruled by the Romans and then the Byzantine Empire until around 700 AD when Islamic/Arabic armies captured and politically controlled most of the Middle East.

    This lasted until the time of the Crusades during which several European political and religious groups attempted to recapture Jerusalem from the Arabs. The area eventually came under control of the Ottoman Empire in about 1500 AD. The Ottomans controlled the area until it was taken away following World War I and administered by the British.

    Through it all, Jews have lived in that area as well as other descendants of what should be considered "native" inhabitants and various immigrant remnants of other occupying entities.

    But when it comes to laying claim to the land, the Muslims and Arabs are among the last people to have captured and occupied the land.

    Ethnically, it would probably be difficult to identify remnants of the Philistines and Hittites and Jebusites and the other ethnic groups who originally occupied the land.

    It needs to be considered that everyone who is claiming the right to live on that land has actually taken it away from someone who lived there before they did. And perhaps it does not hurt to note that the Jews were there long before there were Muslims and Arabs.

    Meanwhile, some of the crap that has been posted on this thread (especially by Cosmo) is classic ignorance and gives much support to the idea that there is little hope for the human race.
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    In order to do that, it was necessary to evict the people who had moved in during the 400 years they were gone.
    Thats a myth.

    See the study by Ariella Oppenheim at Hebrew Univeristy, Israel:

    In genetic genealogy studies, Palestinians and Negev Bedouins have the highest rates of Haplogroup J1 (Y-DNA) among all populations tested (62.5%). Semitic populations, including Jews, usually possess an excess of J1 Y chromosomes compared to other populations harboring Y-haplogroup J. The haplogroup J1, associated with marker M267, originates south of the Levant and was first disseminated from there into Ethiopia and Europe in Neolithic times. In Jewish populations J1 has a rate of around 15%, with haplogroup J2 (M172) (of eight sub-Haplogroups) being almost twice as common as J1 among Jews (<29%). J1 is most common in the southern Levant, as well as Syria, Iraq, Algeria, and Arabia, and drops sharply at the border of non-semitic areas like Turkey and Iran. A second diffusion of the J1 marker took place in the seventh century CE when Arabians brought it from Arabia to North Africa.

    And:

    In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians and in some cases other Levantines are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans (a European sample from the Welsh!)(Nebel et al 2000 study].[82]

    However, a folow-up [Nebel et al 2001 study] corrected that Jews were found to be more closely related to north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks,and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors.[83][84] The same study of Nebel 2001 also suggest that Arab Israelis and Palestinians together as the one same population, represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times", albeit religiously Christianized and later largely Islamized, then both ultimately becoming culturally Arabized. Another study [85] Referring to those of the Muslim faith more specifically, it reaffirmed that Palestinian "Muslim Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel, Sinai and part of Jordan."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...enetic_studies
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    sam wrote:

    Thats a myth.
    Well, not exactly a myth, but certainly an oversimplification. Actually, it was not people who moved in from outside, but the neighbors who were already there who then expanded into the territory which had been occupied and abandoned by Abraham's descendants.

    I am not sure what your point was or what it was that I said that you considered a myth -- that Abraham, being from Ur, was Chaldean? I think the entire (native) population of the Middle East is, in some way, descended from Chaldean ancestry.

    It is possible, via genetic tracking, to determine some relationships of modern people there to ancient civilzations. For example, there was a program recently which discussed that many people who live in Lebanon are descendants of the Phoenicians of Tyre and Sidon.

    I am trying to figure out if sam is saying the Jews have no claim to the land or that they have a claim.

    Maybe we should give it back to the Brits to administer.
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    Very interesting comprehensive info & historical synthesis there Dayton.

    The issue of rights to lands through belief, genetics, ownership seems to me to simply cause ongoing conflict and will never lead to peace.
    It's like the dragon that perpetually swallows its own tail, or the ayurveda gunas persistently circling the hub of the wheel bickering and arguing by attempting to dominate but never quite reaching the still and tranquil center.

    The only way to peace is to transcend this insistence that the only importance to the quality of life we have lies in our differences. This has obviously been proved over many years that this is not the case. Perhaps peace would come if we made our similarities more important than our differences.

    Concerning genetics. Of course it is important and interesting to know what our ancestry is, but it seems that people cling on to the past too much and forget about the future.
    Science states that not only our appearance but also our behavior is influenced by our genetic make-up. Is it not also possible that our behavior as well as our physical life-style could influence our future genetics.
    Isn't this a sure possibility if the theory of evolution is true?
    Therefore shouldn't we as people be more concerned about where we are heading and a little less concerned about where we have come from.

    That appears to me, in the current light of things, as well as what has occurred in the past, the only way and solution for real peace. Perhaps then as a collective we can concentrate on healing ourselves and our planet instead of wasting time destroying everything we have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    And, hey you Brits, lets bring back the olde English of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (do not read the Miller's Tale -- it is too bawdy and violent), or Sir Gawayn and the Grene Knyght or Beowulf.

    Take these first four lines from Sir Gawayn:

    Sithen the sege and the assault sesed at troye,
    The borgh brittened and brent to brondez and askez,
    The tulk that the trammes of tresoun ther wroght
    Watz tried for his trichery, the trewest on erthe.


    My bet is that there is not one Brit or American who posts on this forum who can tell what that says without finding a translation unless they have had a recent college class in early English and even then they would probably need a dictionary of old English words.
    Heh heh!

    I love your note about the Miller's Tale!

    Without looking anything up, this is the best I could do...

    Since the siege and assault ceased at Troy
    The burg (castle/walled city) burnt and razed to 'bricks' and ashes.
    The [ulp] that the [ulp-er] of treason there wrought
    Was tried for his treachery, the truest on earth


    Your point is well made with regard to harking back to any supposed 'origins'. The situation 'here and now', though, is a depressing one for anyone who hopes for humanity and its political future.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    The situation 'here and now', though, is a depressing one for anyone who hopes for humanity and its political future.
    I agree with you sunshine warrior that the situation can be depressing, and it looks bleak because there seems to be a lot of work to be done before humanity can have a better future. I have no doubt there will be plenty more bloodshed and upheavals before anything significant changes.

    But I also think you have to have hope, as well as faith in humanity. Nowadays there are also more and more people who have been taught to think critically and analyse and question and look for something better and beyond what's happening 'here and now'. I suppose our ideals are the grappling hook which we can hope to attempt to pull ourselves up to.
    I think when more and more people can see beyond the superficial differences into the bigger picture and fundamental issues then things will change.

    I think the humanity as a whole could be compared to the individual human life. We learn by our mistakes through suffering, and if we keep making the same mistakes we keep suffering.
    The majority of us have the function of memory and also the desire to ease suffering so there is hope!
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonburner
    Meanwhile, some of the crap that has been posted on this thread (especially by Cosmo) is classic ignorance and gives much support to the idea that there is little hope for the human race.
    Ha ha.
    History in that REligious ARea (rear) is supposed to be the Holy Land.
    So this history is fragmented as are the jewish 'clay fragments' with BITS of history. So forget the history and think about NOW.
    For the record, the jewish riots around 20-30 AD against the Roman rule ended in the eventual defeat for the jews with Roman genocides that caused the Jews to FLEE the area and spread throughout the rest of the world.
    They were gone for close to TWO milleniums.

    So because of their presence in that area, I support a secular state only.

    Their religion is JUNK as Karl Marx defined it. I AGREE.

    So I came to the conclusion that their OT is the cause of this HATRED for others .
    And their portrayal of a man (AbraHAM) as representing the HL is ludicrous since as I said , he has only ONE hole and the CRAP you speak of can only come from that one hole.
    So portraying it as a JUNK religion, you can also portray it as a CRAPPY religion.

    Nuff said.

    Cosmo


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    For the record, the jewish riots around 20-30 AD against the Roman rule ended in the eventual defeat for the jews with Roman genocides that caused the Jews to FLEE the area and spread throughout the rest of the world.
    Whats the difference between the Jews coming from Ur [where Abraham was born] and the Romans coming from wherever, having their little empires then moving away?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonburner
    Meanwhile, some of the crap that has been posted on this thread (especially by Cosmo) is classic ignorance and gives much support to the idea that there is little hope for the human race.
    Ha ha.
    History in that REligious ARea (rear) is supposed to be the Holy Land.
    So this history is fragmented as are the jewish 'clay fragments' with BITS of history. So forget the history and think about NOW.
    For the record, the jewish riots around 20-30 AD against the Roman rule ended in the eventual defeat for the jews with Roman genocides that caused the Jews to FLEE the area and spread throughout the rest of the world.
    They were gone for close to TWO milleniums.

    So because of their presence in that area, I support a secular state only.

    Their religion is JUNK as Karl Marx defined it. I AGREE.

    So I came to the conclusion that their OT is the cause of this HATRED for others .
    And their portrayal of a man (AbraHAM) as representing the HL is ludicrous since as I said , he has only ONE hole and the CRAP you speak of can only come from that one hole.
    So portraying it as a JUNK religion, you can also portray it as a CRAPPY religion.

    Nuff said.

    Cosmo


    .
    No mention of the Holocaust then?

    It's either got to be two millennia ago, or it's nothing?

    History is constantly happening to us, and as Marx said (since you seem happy to quote him), you ignore it at your peril.
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    One of the big problems we have on the world level is that we do not seem to have the same basis for our perspectives.

    When you have one group whose objective is the complete eradication of another group, the first thing that has to change is the one group's objective to eradicate the other.

    I just don't know how peace can be achieved as long as the first group retains that objective. Unless, of course, that objective is attained.

    In Palestine, the conflict rages around the desire of groups such as Hamas in Gaza and Hezbolla in Lebanon to completely rid the region of Jewish political presence. Aggravating the problem is that the world of Islam is far more supportive of their efforts than is the rest of the world in support of the existence of Israel. It would just seem to me that if the world (in the form of the U.N.) agreed that Israel has the right to be a nation in Palestine, it should do a little more to protect the integrity of that nation rather than allowing neighbors to lob bombs on them and then get outraged when they fight back.

    The idea of a negotiated settlement seems highly unlikely. As someone said of Hamas and Hezbollah the other day on TV, when you sit down with them at the table and their opening statement is, "OK, what are you going to do to help us get rid of Israel, there is not a lot of room left for negotiation." I don't think most people in the West really understand their unwillingness to negotiate any more than they understand our process of compromising. Their idea of compromise seems more to be that settlement is reached when you capitulate to their demands. Their idea of a cease fire is that it is a short vacation from war during which time they are allowed to rearm so they can resume firing at a later date.

    Absum said:

    Nowadays there are also more and more people who have been taught to think critically and analyse
    Unfortunately, some people use these processes to plot the demise of others or how to destroy two tall building by hijacking airliners and piloting them into the buildings, deliberately murdering thousands of innocent citizens.

    As to sunshine's translation of the Gawain lines: Close enough for a cigar. I took an early English class and that was a piece of literature we read but I could not translate it now without some help.

    There are several translations which render words differently. For example, tulk is translated at traitor by one translator and as warrior by another. Sithen could be translated when or after and still mean the same same as sunshine's since. The word trammes seems to be glossed over by translators but in the context would seem to mean something on the order of the instigator or prevaricator. Trechery is translated as either trickery or treachery. The trewest on erthe apparently conveys the idea of to the highest degree. I think that one could reasonably conclude that the traitor or warrior was Paris whose treacherous kidnapping of Helen of Sparta instigated the whole war which is part myth and part true.

    What I was trying to bring out with this was that here we have a document (of which only one "original" copy exists) that was written about 600 years ago and because of the limited copies we are not certain what some of the words are nor what they meant to the people who read it them back then. Yet, we are willing to accept different potential meanings which do not alter the overall meaning. However, many people are not willing to cut the same slack for the Bible which was written over a period of 2000 years starting 4000 years ago in a language which is far more complex than early English. At least in early English, the words are separated by spaces, a luxury not provided in ancient Hebrew. We have numerous "original" copies of the Bible and we are very certain as to what the original texts said. What they should say when translated into English is a different question.

    The idea that religion is the instigator of all the conflict in the world should be repugnant to any reasonable person. There are many other causes of conflict of which politics, economics, ethnicity and race are easily as provocative as religion.
    The Trojan war, for crying out loud, was fought over a woman!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    No mention of the Holocaust then?

    It's either got to be two millennia ago, or it's nothing?

    History is constantly happening to us, and as Marx said (since you seem happy to quote him), you ignore it at your peril.
    The recent holocaust was punishment for the Joe Stalin and Marx's communist jewicides commited against the people of Russia.

    Stalin established himself as a god, so that was a violation of YHWH's 1st commandment. So the spirit (YHWH) then punished the jews for the sins of Stalin.

    So there is nothing more to say about this.

    Cosmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    No mention of the Holocaust then?

    It's either got to be two millennia ago, or it's nothing?

    History is constantly happening to us, and as Marx said (since you seem happy to quote him), you ignore it at your peril.
    The recent holocaust was punishment for the Joe Stalin and Marx's communist jewicides commited against the people of Russia.

    Stalin established himself as a god, so that was a violation of YHWH's 1st commandment. So the spirit (YHWH) then punished the jews for the sins of Stalin.

    So there is nothing more to say about this.

    Cosmo
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    No mention of the Holocaust then?

    It's either got to be two millennia ago, or it's nothing?

    History is constantly happening to us, and as Marx said (since you seem happy to quote him), you ignore it at your peril.
    The recent holocaust was punishment for the Joe Stalin and Marx's communist jewicides commited against the people of Russia.

    Stalin established himself as a god, so that was a violation of YHWH's 1st commandment. So the spirit (YHWH) then punished the jews for the sins of Stalin.

    So there is nothing more to say about this.

    Cosmo
    I'm sorry but I cannot see any kind of coherent thought in that set of statements you just made.

    It's as though the words are strung together grammatically (and I'm being generous), but there's no more meaning to them than Chomsky's famous: "Colourless green dreams sleep furiously".

    Ah well...
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    Cosmo encoded:

    The recent holocaust was punishment for the Joe Stalin and Marx's communist jewicides commited against the people of Russia.
    Stalin established himself as a god, so that was a violation of YHWH's 1st commandment. So the spirit (YHWH) then punished the jews for the sins of Stalin.
    Sunshine commented:

    I'm sorry but I cannot see any kind of coherent thought in that set of statements you just made.
    It's as though the words are strung together grammatically (and I'm being generous), but there's no more meaning to them than Chomsky's famous: "Colourless green dreams sleep furiously".
    I certainly agree with Sunshine. I have no idea what secret enclave of resource materials Cosmo is accessing to reveal all these formerly unknown facts. He is a fount of formerly unexposed and unknown history. He does, however, provide us an entertaining script of heretofore undiscovered causes and effects in the course of world events.

    Gosh, I wish he would get himself together to do a thorough investigation of the Roswell UFO crash. Now there is a mystery worthy of his efforts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I certainly agree with Sunshine. I have no idea what secret enclave of resource materials Cosmo is accessing to reveal all these formerly unknown facts. He is a fount of formerly unexposed and unknown history. He does, however, provide us an entertaining script of heretofore undiscovered causes and effects in the course of world events.
    Apparently you have some difficulty in understanding English?

    I believe in 'Cause and Effect'. The OT uses this rule also since it says that violations of YHWH's commandments (cause) results in the mass kilings (effect)that followed.
    This rule is followed by many other policies such as Hinduism (Karma), physics Science), Religions like the OT, Islam, (infidels as an effect), Romans with heretics, Communisms cleansing of opponants and etc.

    So who do you punish for the Joseph Stalin attrocities?
    First names are associated spiritually with origins
    Jiseph - jewish, Karl - not to obvious, German. Then by birthright,
    Joseph, Georgia (cant recall last name) and Karl Marx Jewish.
    Then the attrocities and Stalins self established ego obviously derived from the OT through the Marx heritage.

    These links are obviously the 'causes' of the attrocities. So the holocaust was the 'effect'.

    What other cause can you supply for JS's actions?

    Cosmo
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    Cosmo wrote:

    I believe in 'Cause and Effect'. The OT uses this rule also since it says that violations of YHWH's commandments (cause) results in the mass kilings (effect)that followed.
    I think you need to site chapter and verse to support that contention. The links you are making are pure foolishness with absolutely no relationship to reality. It is no wonder that atheists and agnostics think believers are nutjobs and fruitcakes. Your posts are pure, utter and total nonsense.

    I have no problem understanding English. I do have a problem with gibberish which, so far, is about all I have ever seen in your inane posts.
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    I thought the Nazi line was that disruptive communists (i.e. trade unionists) and Jewish bankers were conspiring to sap the wealth of honest nations like Germany. So yeah communism and Judaism were popularly associated, even Churchill and Ford were saying this.

    Propaganda posters of the time paint it luridly.

    Maybe a large proportion of German Jews were communists - and so what? Demographics happen.

    I don't get how Cosmo jumps to the Christian God punishing those groups. The Nazi's thought themselves most rational scientists of human destiny.
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    There are two polarities in existence

    Life & Death

    Regenerative or degenerative

    Everything else are shades in between these two with either one dominant and the other passive to degrees.

    This is as applicable to human behavior and morals as it is to the natural physical sphere.

    So although we have little choice due to the paradox that whilst there is life there is inevitable and necessary death and whilst we are living we are also at the same time dying.

    We do have a choice which of the one we choose to aspire to, and nowhere more so than through our philosophies, beliefs, actions, behavior, ideas and ideals.

    All religions use the terminology ascension, transcending, and the impressions of a 'soaring spirit' In uniting with God. So this ideal of God exists on a higher level.
    They also state that all things are of God, and so that applies to degeneration, corruption and death too. Without death there would be no life.

    But on a human moral ethical and behavioral level, all religions teach that man should aspire towards the life aspect of God. That which grows, regenerates and moves towards and promotes more life.
    In the human mind this means aspiring towards our highest aims and identifying with our highest thoughts. Those thoughts which encourage life.

    There is undoubtedly a life force in the universe which seeks incessantly and unceasingly to produce more and more life. Death is is simply a necessity to facilitate growth. So even death and decay plays it's most important role in enabling more life in providing the fertile ground from which new life can spring.

    Therefore I think to blame God for any human atrocities, especially such things as the Holocaust, is simply unfounded and smacks of an attempt for humans to turn away from their responsibilities and blame some omnipotent and abstract being!

    It also demonstrates the weak minded in-capabilities of humans to identify with death decay and that nasty elements in themselves as too horrible to look at, and that is why these elements periodically wreak havoc on humanity unchecked.

    Our job is to become conscious and conscious means becoming aware. Being aware of our highest potential and life, and being aware of our lowest potential and death The Holocaust occured through human ignorance and weak mindedness, and especially fear due to the Germans losing security and facing hardship, which resulted in the persecution of the minority.

    The jews were, and always have been, a very tight knit community, where they communicate and support one another, so it is inevitable they would fair better. The Germans on the other hand had become fragmented, alienated, depressed and despondent being starved of unity due to previous events.
    Hitler simply came along, filled the gap and fed their hunger and lifted their spirits by giving them a feeling of unity.
    When people become desperate, they will do anything to save themselves and atrocities happen.

    It's the responsibility of humans to ensure people don't become desperate, not Gods, we are given all the tools, it's up to us to use them properly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Cosmo wrote:

    I believe in 'Cause and Effect'. The OT uses this rule also since it says that violations of YHWH's commandments (cause) results in the mass kilings (effect)that followed.
    I think you need to site chapter and verse to support that contention. The links you are making are pure foolishness with absolutely no relationship to reality. It is no wonder that atheists and agnostics think believers are nutjobs and fruitcakes. Your posts are pure, utter and total nonsense.

    I have no problem understanding English. I do have a problem with gibberish which, so far, is about all I have ever seen in your inane posts.
    I do not need to include the sources in the bible.

    There are passages as the jews being exterminated en mass for complaining to being NOMADS.
    There were mass killings for worshipping a 'GOLDEN CALF.
    There were mass killimgs for marrying outside the cult.
    If you read the bible, you should know about this.

    Cosmo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmo
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Cosmo wrote:

    I believe in 'Cause and Effect'. The OT uses this rule also since it says that violations of YHWH's commandments (cause) results in the mass kilings (effect)that followed.
    I think you need to site chapter and verse to support that contention. The links you are making are pure foolishness with absolutely no relationship to reality. It is no wonder that atheists and agnostics think believers are nutjobs and fruitcakes. Your posts are pure, utter and total nonsense.

    I have no problem understanding English. I do have a problem with gibberish which, so far, is about all I have ever seen in your inane posts.
    I do not need to include the sources in the bible.

    There are passages as the jews being exterminated en mass for complaining to being NOMADS.
    There were mass killings for worshipping a 'GOLDEN CALF.
    There were mass killimgs for marrying outside the cult.
    If you read the bible, you should know about this.

    Cosmo
    plz quote,and mass killing by who?jews?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    mass killing by who?
    Punishments from God. Clouds of stinging insects, rising seas, even God's own flashing sword. The means are not important. It could be foreign armies, or erectile dysfunction, whatever.

    Cosmo's quite right about the cause & effect paradigm set down squarely on the Jewish nation, by God personally. He needn't cite chapter and verse - LOL where to start? And apparently it's not over yet.

    What matters now is if any Jews or Christians believe God created fascism as an instrument of punishment. I feel that solution must be tempting to those who for subjective reasons can't deconstruct the fanatical mind.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  50. #49  
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    Numbers 31

    Moses slaughters ALL men, kills all the non-virgin women and gives the virgin women to his men. He then says, "Clean up after you are done".. Moses, our very first crime boss. Kill all the men and give the women who havn't had sex yet to his men for their pleasure.
    Yes, the bible is moral indeed.
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by servant
    plz quote,and mass killing by who?jews?
    No, the jews were victimized by their god YHWH that gave orders to Moses to carry out the punishment.

    Do not ask me for the exact references from the bible because this requires searching . I do not remember the exact nooks, chapters and lines but do remember the attrocities that ocurred .

    Cosmo
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  52. #51  
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    No, the jews were victimized by their god YHWH that gave orders to Moses to carry out the punishment.
    I think you are mistaken, Cosmo. The Jews were not punished; they were saved by Moses, who promised them "a land flowing with milk and honey". I think the mass murder you refer to were the Ten Plagues (was it Plagues or something else?) i.e. the waters turning red, an infestation of frogs and locusts, disease and pestilence, and, ultimately, the smiting of the firstborn of the Egyptians. Ultimately, the Pharaoh's army was drowned in the sea.

    Not one of those Egyptians were Jews.

    Besides, your statement is illogical inthe extreme. Why would a religion condemn its own followers? That would be a quick way to get rid of all believers.
    In control lies inordinate freedom; in freedom lies inordinate control.
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liongold
    No, the jews were victimized by their god YHWH that gave orders to Moses to carry out the punishment.
    I think you are mistaken, Cosmo. The Jews were not punished; they were saved by Moses, who promised them "a land flowing with milk and honey". I think the mass murder you refer to were the Ten Plagues (was it Plagues or something else?) i.e. the waters turning red, an infestation of frogs and locusts, disease and pestilence, and, ultimately, the smiting of the firstborn of the Egyptians. Ultimately, the Pharaoh's army was drowned in the sea.

    Not one of those Egyptians were Jews.

    Besides, your statement is illogical inthe extreme. Why would a religion condemn its own followers? That would be a quick way to get rid of all believers.
    Yes, some of the things you say were quoted in the bible but you ignore the demands that YHWH quoted in the 1st 3 commandments to obey or be punished.

    The jews were punished on one occasion for complaining of being 'nomads'. On another occasion of worshipping a golden calf and another for marrying outside their cult.
    Are you aware of those incidents?

    Moses did intercede on behalf of the jews once or twice in a plea to YHWH to be lenient .

    But in these current times, how come their YHWH does not have his miraculous powers to punish their enemies now?
    Now the jews have to make use of the guns and cannons that the Romans invented. Now they have been reduced to just ordinary individuals? Ha ha.

    Cosmo
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