Thread: MH17 Shot down

Another Malaysian Airlines plane lost today over Ukraine.
What surprised me was that a group of the families affected by the MH370 loss reckoned on the TV3 News that the second plane loss was connected to the first! Now that would seem unusual but if it was how could they be connected and why pick on Malaysia?
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: Loss of the two Boeing 777 planes are 'unlikely to be linked' http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9613277.html

Malaysia Airlines was already suffering commercially as a result of the loss of MH370. The destruction of MH17 is likely also to have severe consequences, even if the airline itself is found to be blameless.

Who wants to fly Malaysia Airlines now!

Lusitania springs to mind.

It's a big loss for malaysia airline. But it is not their fault for being sshot down byvthe rebels

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Lusitania springs to mind.

thanks - I thought for a moment Lusitania - "what do you mean?", but I see it now. Yes very much so.

From those initial intercepts it sounds like the rebels were expecting this MH17 to be carrying weapons, but there weren't any. So who gave them that impression?

I find this conversation also somewhat interesting.

One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.
“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”
In the third part of conversation Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin talking to an unidentified militant cynically suggests that the Malaysia Airlines airplane could've been carrying spies, as, otherwise, it would have no business flying in that area.
Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.
They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?
Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.

So did they fire at a military plane but the heat-seeking missile pick up the 777 by mistake? Or was the 777 fired upon by the rebels thinking it had some weapons onboard?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

So did they fire at a military plane but the heat-seeking missile pick up the 777 by mistake?

From the transcript it appears that they thought they were firing at a military plane.
Aircraft (unless actual military ones in - or approaching - a dogfight, or civilian ones over an airport) are NEVER close enough for IR targeting to "pick the wrong one.
The missile fired wasn't heat seeking. Long-range ones (which includes missiles intended for high-altitude targets) are radar-guided.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

So did they fire at a military plane but the heat-seeking missile pick up the 777 by mistake?

From the transcript it appears that they thought they were firing at a military plane.
Aircraft (unless actual military ones in - or approaching - a dogfight, or civilian ones over an airport) are NEVER close enough for IR targeting to "pick the wrong one.
The missile fired wasn't heat seeking. Long-range ones (which includes missiles intended for high-altitude targets) are radar-guided.

OK but there were reports (maybe wrongly that it was a "heat seeking missile")

The Donetsk region government said a plane crashed Thursday near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of the separatists. The region where the flight was lost has seen severe fighting between the two sides in recent days. Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet).
He said it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

another site:

BUK missile systems have large self-propelled launchers that use radar to engage aircraft or missiles up to an altitude of 75,000 feet.

Read more: MH17 flight believed to have been downed by Soviet-built BUK missile | Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Thanks for the correction.

MH370 and MH17 are two different stories, even though there is an obvious connection. IMHO they should be two different threads, as MH370 will surface again.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

MH370 and MH17 are two different stories, even though there is an obvious connection. IMHO they should be two different threads, as MH370 will surface again.

Other than the airline, is there a connection?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Other than the airline, is there a connection?

No.

Honestly, you actually need to ask such a silly question?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

MH370 and MH17 are two different stories, even though there is an obvious connection. IMHO they should be two different threads, as MH370 will surface again.

Other than the airline, is there a connection?

That is what I meant, the airline. Moderators please.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

MH370 and MH17 are two different stories, even though there is an obvious connection. IMHO they should be two different threads, as MH370 will surface again.

Other than the airline, is there a connection?

That is what I meant, the airline. Moderators please.

It was this "What surprised me was that a group of the families affected by the MH370 loss reckoned on the TV3 News that the second plane loss was connected to the first! Now that would seem unusual but if it was how could they be connected and why pick on Malaysia?" that linked the two planes. What was going on in their reasoning?

Originally Posted by Tranquille

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Other than the airline, is there a connection?

No.

Honestly, you actually need to ask such a silly question?

There were something like 60 airliners that took that route across Ukraine on that day and only one got shot down. Was that just random bad luck?

Haven't heard anyone discuss a possible motivation to take down anything other than perhaps a Russian or Ukraine aircraft, but lots of reasons to think it was just one of many radar blip targets to shoot at that day.

--
Disappointed in the coverage on this story, particularly it being echoed by media and President alike that this took sophisticated equipment and well trained crew. As scary as it is the tech to do this is nearly 50 years old and because they are designed to be used in the absolute worst conditions (think pitch black, pouring rain, or while wearing nuclear biological chemical warfare suits) by relatively uneducated soldiers, training requirements are pretty minimal. The difficult part is probably keeping them maintained which for the old systems means figuring out what tubes to change and of course getting spare parts.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Disappointed in the coverage on this story, . . .

I agree.

As long as the US government (and the US media) don't get too indignant. The US Navy accidentally shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 in the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 people aboard.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any coincidence that a media frenzy covers this story as Israel bombs Gaza?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

There were something like 60 airliners that took that route across Ukraine on that day and only one got shot down. Was that just random bad luck?

Yes. The transcripts and their now deleted social media posts of their boasting about it show that it was just random bad luck. It could have been one of several airlines who flew that route.

Originally Posted by Tranquille

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

There were something like 60 airliners that took that route across Ukraine on that day and only one got shot down. Was that just random bad luck?

Yes. The transcripts and their now deleted social media posts of their boasting about it show that it was just random bad luck. It could have been one of several airlines who flew that route.

If they are allowed to investigate in a war zone we will find out.

Isn't this MH17 = MH370 perspective the same as perspective distorted by a strong previous experience, so this is — or is similar to — confirmation bias?

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

Isn't this MH17 = MH370 perspective the same as perspective distorted by a strong previous experience, so this is — or is similar to — confirmation bias?

Confirmation bias -

Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is the tendency to favor information that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses.

That might work if someone believed or hypothesised that the two incidences were connected. I can only think they could be connected if there was some major foreign power coordinating the Ukrainian rebels. Like someone who knows which of the high flying airliners was Malaysian Airlines. OK that is possible but why pick on Malaysia? Is Malaysia backing the Muslim Chinese or the Chechens? If that was happening maybe there could be covert operations to embarrass Malaysia, but I haven't heard of any Malaysian support for the rebel groups.
Searched on Google but didn't get any hints of trouble coming out of Malaysia.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

That might work if someone believed or hypothesised that the two incidences were connected. I can only think they could be connected if there was some major foreign power coordinating the Ukrainian rebels. Like someone who knows which of the high flying airliners was Malaysian Airlines. OK that is possible but why pick on Malaysia? Is Malaysia backing the Muslim Chinese or the Chechens? If that was happening maybe there could be covert operations to embarrass Malaysia, but I haven't heard of any Malaysian support for the rebel groups.
Searched on Google but didn't get any hints of trouble coming out of Malaysia.

Oh look! You're posting woo woo conspiracies. How strange and unusual.

Originally Posted by Tranquille

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

That might work if someone believed or hypothesised that the two incidences were connected. I can only think they could be connected if there was some major foreign power coordinating the Ukrainian rebels. Like someone who knows which of the high flying airliners was Malaysian Airlines. OK that is possible but why pick on Malaysia? Is Malaysia backing the Muslim Chinese or the Chechens? If that was happening maybe there could be covert operations to embarrass Malaysia, but I haven't heard of any Malaysian support for the rebel groups.
Searched on Google but didn't get any hints of trouble coming out of Malaysia.

Oh look! You're posting woo woo conspiracies. How strange and unusual.

Look who's back conspiring against Robitty!

I'm saying there isn't any conspiracy focussed on Malaysia. There is no evidence of any such conspiracy.

Well, it appears that the Westerrn media would have us go to war with Russia, over the tragic events of MH17. At the moment we do not know who or what caused this disaster. It could have been a bomb aboard MH17. We saw the same sort of destruction and scattering of debris when Pan Am Flight 103, was blown out of the sky and landed in and around Lockerbie on Wednesday, 21 December 1988.

Pan Am Flight 103 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Well, it appears that the Westerrn media would have us go to war with Russia, over the tragic events of MH17. At the moment we do not know who or what caused this disaster. It could have been a bomb aboard MH17. We saw the same sort of destruction and scattering of debris when Pan Am Flight 103, was blown out of the sky and landed in and around Lockerbie on Wednesday, 21 December 1988.

Pan Am Flight 103 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did you not see the transcripts of the conversations of the rebels?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Lusitania springs to mind.

thanks - I thought for a moment Lusitania - "what do you mean?", but I see it now. Yes very much so.

From those initial intercepts it sounds like the rebels were expecting this MH17 to be carrying weapons, but there weren't any. So who gave them that impression?

I find this conversation also somewhat interesting.

One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.
“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”
In the third part of conversation Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin talking to an unidentified militant cynically suggests that the Malaysia Airlines airplane could've been carrying spies, as, otherwise, it would have no business flying in that area.
Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:
Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).
Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?
IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.
VG: How many minutes ago?
IB: About 30 minutes ago.
SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.
“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.
“Grek”: Yes, Major.
"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.
“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?
“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.
“Greek”: Are many people there?
“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).
“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?
“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.
“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?
“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.
“Greek”: Are there documents?
“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.
Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.
They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?
Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.

So did they fire at a military plane but the heat-seeking missile pick up the 777 by mistake? Or was the 777 fired upon by the rebels thinking it had some weapons onboard?

Is this what you mean ? anyone could have written that.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is this what you mean ? anyone could have written that.

Have you checked the passenger list? It seems to be quite specific on one point. I wonder if that will be confirmed? The transcript says "Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson"?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19661725/

One unverified online report raised the notion of another Canadian connection. Based on a transcript of an unverified recording, the report suggested one of the victims may be an Indonesian from the “University of Thompson” – which left officials at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, B.C., checking their records.
TRU currently has a joint program with the Indonesian government, with three Indonesian students enrolled, but has so far found no evidence any were on the flight. “It doesn’t appear that that’s the case … we’re working on tracking down all our students,” TRU spokeswoman Diana Skoglund said Thursday evening.

~ Roberttybob; I would not engage these foolish responses.. These people, I suspect are just trying to wind you up..
You are being trolled.. You did not suggest conspiracy you brushed it aside.. I saw that.

~ The only connection between these horrible incidents is that MH was part of the call sign of both..
Wrong place, wrong time.. No intent. They targeted and destroyed the wrong plane.. and are hiding behind a wall of embarrassment..
America was clearly implicated in the media release of confirmation of missile strike., or did I dream that ??? now who's being a twit.. me Oops.

A clear fact is; That those whom shot that missile had no idea what they shot.. A vapor trail, a target.

Originally Posted by astromark

~ Roberttybob; I would not engage these foolish responses.. These people, I suspect are just trying to wind you up..
You are being trolled.. You did not suggest conspiracy you brushed it aside.. I saw that.

~ The only connection between these horrible incidents is that MH was part of the call sign of both..
Wrong place, wrong time.. No intent. They targeted and destroyed the wrong plane.. and are hiding behind a wall of embarrassment..
America was clearly implicated in the media release of confirmation of missile strike., or did I dream that ??? now who's being a twit.. me Oops.

A clear fact is; That those whom shot that missile had no idea what they shot.. A vapor trail, a target.

Dave seems OK to me. He can have his opinion. Lynx-Fox will tell us whether a plane at 33,000 ft can be identified visually. They'd have their binoculars as well.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is this what you mean ? anyone could have written that.

Have you checked the passenger list? It seems to be quite specific on one point. I wonder if that will be confirmed? The transcript says "Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson"?
One Canadian among 298 dead in plane crash: reports - The Globe and Mail

One unverified online report raised the notion of another Canadian connection. Based on a transcript of an unverified recording, the report suggested one of the victims may be an Indonesian from the “University of Thompson” – which left officials at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, B.C., checking their records.
TRU currently has a joint program with the Indonesian government, with three Indonesian students enrolled, but has so far found no evidence any were on the flight. “It doesn’t appear that that’s the case … we’re working on tracking down all our students,” TRU spokeswoman Diana Skoglund said Thursday evening.

I have read your link, but I have know idea what you are getting at.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by astromark

~ Roberttybob; I would not engage these foolish responses.. These people, I suspect are just trying to wind you up..
You are being trolled.. You did not suggest conspiracy you brushed it aside.. I saw that.

~ The only connection between these horrible incidents is that MH was part of the call sign of both..
Wrong place, wrong time.. No intent. They targeted and destroyed the wrong plane.. and are hiding behind a wall of embarrassment..
America was clearly implicated in the media release of confirmation of missile strike., or did I dream that ??? now who's being a twit.. me Oops.

A clear fact is; That those whom shot that missile had no idea what they shot.. A vapor trail, a target.

Dave seems OK to me. He can have his opinion. Lynx-Fox will tell us whether a plane at 33,000 ft can be identified visually. They'd have their binoculars as well.

I live in Carlisle Cumbria UK. Transatlantic flights appear to pass overhead every day. I have looked at various aircraft through binoculars, that are flying over Carlisle. On a clear day, any aeroplane nerd would be able to visually identify the type of aircraft.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

Is this what you mean ? anyone could have written that.

Have you checked the passenger list? It seems to be quite specific on one point. I wonder if that will be confirmed? The transcript says "Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson"?
One Canadian among 298 dead in plane crash: reports - The Globe and Mail

One unverified online report raised the notion of another Canadian connection. Based on a transcript of an unverified recording, the report suggested one of the victims may be an Indonesian from the “University of Thompson” – which left officials at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, B.C., checking their records.
TRU currently has a joint program with the Indonesian government, with three Indonesian students enrolled, but has so far found no evidence any were on the flight. “It doesn’t appear that that’s the case … we’re working on tracking down all our students,” TRU spokeswoman Diana Skoglund said Thursday evening.

I have read your link, but I have know idea what you are getting at.

As that paper tried to do, we should try and do also. Before we dismiss that transcript as a hoax, find out whether there was an Indonesian student or ex-student from Thompson on the flight. The specifics of that can't just be guessed as needed when you say "anyone could have written that". No they can't for it is rather specific information if proven correct.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

I live in Carlisle Cumbria UK. Transatlantic flights appear to pass overhead every day. I have looked at various aircraft through binoculars, that are flying over Carlisle. On a clear day, any aeroplane nerd would be able to visually identify the type of aircraft.

Cheers Dave. Thanks for that information.

Originally Posted by Dave Wilson

On a clear day, any aeroplane nerd would be able to visually identify the type of aircraft.

The problem here is that "anti-aircraft missile system operator" != "aeroplane nerd".
I used to work with a guy who had been a member a Bofors (40mm) AA gun in WWII.
I took some photos from an airshow to the office one day...
"That's a Spitfire!"
"No Ted, that's a Messerschmitt"
"That one's a Spitfire!"
"Um, that's a Mustang"
"That's a Spitfire!"
"WTF? That's a Lancaster"
"Oh"
"How the hell did you manage as an anti-aircraft gunner if you can't tell a 4-engined bomber from a single-engined fighter?"
"Didn't have to. We had a observer attached who's job it was to identify aeroplanes..."
"That's a relief"
"... but we ignored him. If it was in range we shot at it".
(He did add that in 3 years he and his crew never managed to hit any target they fired at).

And, more recently, I once corrected a US navy fighter pilot who misidentified a Russian fighter: in broad daylight at a distance of less than 1/4 mile.

I also don't support the idea of a conspiracy to ruin Malaysia Airlines, but that doesn't mean a causal connection is not possible because it is not only malice aforethought that results in wrongs. Negligence can play a part.

Consider this — Malaysia Airlines might cut corners (ie, saves money) in certain ways. For example, it may not vet air crews as thoroughly as other airlines, so they end up with a suicidal pilot who decides to kill himself in a sensational way. Another example, it may decide not to take the extra precaution of avoiding Ukrainian airspace altogether, which would incur a small additional cost, but instead accepts Ukraine's statement that it's safe to fly over Ukraine above 32,000 feet. So, the failure to vet crews properly and the failure to take extra route precautions can both be categorized as negligence. That is, Malaysia Airlines' negligence could have contributed to both tragedies.

This is the only "reasonable" (although extremely unlikely) connection that I can see. There's probably plenty of airlines that made these same decisions, and could have hired such a pilot and/or encountered such warfare, but it's simply a rare misfortune that both occurred to Malaysia Airlines. Actually, we don't really know the cause of MH370's disappearance, so this is just speculation on my part.

Regardless, I don't doubt that Malaysia Airlines will suffer, and possibly fail, because passengers, including highly intelligent people, will shy away from them "just to be on the safe side".

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

I also don't support the idea of a conspiracy to ruin Malaysia Airlines, but that doesn't mean a causal connection is not possible because it is not only malice aforethought that results in wrongs. Negligence can play a part.

Consider this — Malaysia Airlines might cut corners (ie, saves money) in certain ways. For example, it may not vet air crews as thoroughly as other airlines, so they end up with a suicidal pilot who decides to kill himself in a sensational way. Another example, it may decide not to take the extra precaution of avoiding Ukrainian airspace altogether, which would incur a small additional cost, but instead accepts Ukraine's statement that it's safe to fly over Ukraine above 32,000 feet. So, the failure to vet crews properly and the failure to take extra route precautions can both be categorized as negligence. That is, Malaysia Airlines' negligence could have contributed to both tragedies.

This is the only "reasonable" (although extremely unlikely) connection that I can see. There's probably plenty of airlines that made these same decisions, and could have hired such a pilot and/or encountered such warfare, but it's simply a rare misfortune that both occurred to Malaysia Airlines. Actually, we don't really know the cause of MH370's disappearance, so this is just speculation on my part.

Regardless, I don't doubt that Malaysia Airlines will suffer, and possibly fail, because passengers, including highly intelligent people, will shy away from them "just to be on the safe side".

So I take that to mean even though there is no known conspiracy against Malaysian Airlines the public still aren't going to take the risk. If anyone of us says "I wouldn't fly with Malaysian Airlines" what reason would we give? Are we superstitious?
If cost cutting is leading to the disasters I think you have a valid reason not to fly.
Firstly carrying dangerous cargo, and then taking cheaper short-cuts across Ukraine, what next?

Superstitious? Kinda. Not that we would call it that. Maybe fear of the unknown — no, not fear, maybe concern or prudence. What we might say to ourselves or others:

• It kinda creepy, don't you think?
• Would you let your grandma fly on that airline?
• Just to be on the safe side.
• Why take a chance?
• Who knows?

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

Superstitious? Kinda. Not that we would call it that. Maybe fear of the unknown — no, not fear, maybe concern or prudence. What we might say to ourselves or others:

• It kinda creepy, don't you think?
• Would you let your grandma fly on that airline?
• Just to be on the safe side.
• Why take a chance?
• Who knows?

It is like when you play roulette they display the previous 10 winning numbers, but you have to tell yourself the future is not dependent on the past. If it is truly random it is independent, but it was always hard to ignore whether it was red or black on the last spin.

We will die one day, we can never predict when
Or how. Its unfair to state reason like that ( by jrmonroe). I t can hapoen to any airline. It is just a badluck to mas. The important thing that people cant see is to blame the person who responsible of shooting down the plane, either ukrainian side or the rebels. But i do believe its ukrain. With fake videos and they quickly blaming the other side.

Originally Posted by shazzy

We will die one day, we can never predict when
Or how. Its unfair to state reason like that ( by jrmonroe). I t can hapoen to any airline. It is just a badluck to mas. The important thing that people cant see is to blame the person who responsible of shooting down the plane, either ukrainian side or the rebels. But i do believe its ukrain. With fake videos and they quickly blaming the other side.

I would like to hear your reasoning for blaming Ukraine. Putin blames Ukraine too but not for pulling the trigger but for retaking the rebel areas. Making the rebels needing to fight to retain the autonomous regions.
What is your reasoning?

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

• Would you let your grandma fly on that airline?

No. But i would buy tickets for my ex-wife, my ex-mother-in-law, by cousin, one of my mates where I work, Dick Cheney, . . . .

Originally Posted by Chucknorium

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

• Would you let your grandma fly on that airline?

No. But i would buy tickets for my ex-wife, my ex-mother-in-law, by cousin, one of my mates where I work, Dick Cheney, . . . .

Was that said in kindness? You are a very generous man considering MAS will be the safest airline in the world from now on.

Putin caught between a rock and a hard place. He becomes a very unpredictable animal.

Putin caught between a rock and a hard place.

How?

He could just use the rebels as an excuse to full invade and secure the place to "make sure something like this doesn't happen again." This plays right into his hand.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Putin caught between a rock and a hard place.

How?

He could just use the rebels as an excuse to full invade and secure the place to "make sure something like this doesn't happen again." This plays right into his hand.

No one really wants to start WWIII, and total annexation of Ukraine would do that, but if he supports the rebels and they get autonomy and they continue to side with Russia he virtually gets the same result without having to risk a war. But can the rebels hold back the Ukrainian army without Russian support equipment and training? I don't think so.

And that is why the rebels ended up with Russian missiles capable of shooting down planes. He needs the rebels and the rebels need him, so there isn't going to be the pressure applied to the rebels, at least not as much as the West would want.

OK that's how I see it. Do I have a solution? Not yet. Maybe if Russia could see the benefit of having a European aligned country on it boundary then it could calm down, but I think it won't settle for that. Not yet any way.
Can Russia benefit from having Ukraine under European (NATO) control?

This article sums up the situation well.
The Kremlin’s Machiavelli has led Russia to disaster By Gideon Rachman
The Kremlin’s Machiavelli has led Russia to disaster - FT.com

ON CNN this morning they had shots of people going into the "refrigerated" rail cars. I think someone forgot to turn them on. There were flies in the carriages. There's going to be a stink over that for sure.
"Pro-Russian separatists move MH17 victims to cooled train cars"

Separatist rebel leader Alexander Borodai said Sunday that bodies recovered from the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 crash site in eastern Ukraine would remain in refrigerated train cars at a station in the rebel-held town of Torez, nine miles away, until the arrival of an international aviation delegation.

Originally Posted by shazzy

Its unfair to state reason like that ( by jrmonroe). It can happen to any airline. It is just a bad luck to mas.

You're right, shazzy, it could happen to any airline, but it didn't. And it's not that one incident happened to Malaysia Airlines and the other incident happened to another airline. They both happened to Malaysia Airlines.

Humans have an ability to recognize patterns well beyond that of animals. Unfortunately, sometimes this causes people to see patterns where none exist. It's like looking at clouds and seeing a bunny rabbit, a person's face, etc. This is a well-known phenomenon. Consider the Rorschach Test.

Human brains want to see something. And when they see a quality in one or more situations involving a particular entity, they tend to associate that quality with that entity. In the case of Malaysia Airlines, the quality is death, a quality that is very strong and emotional.

On the other hand, if in the middle of a Malaysia Airlines flight, some anonymous rich guy got up from his first-class seat and walked around the airplane giving everyone 50-gram gold bars (~US$2,000), do you think more people might fly Malaysia Airlines? Of course! Even though it's highly unlikely to happen again, and it had happened on only one of its many flights.

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

Originally Posted by shazzy

Its unfair to state reason like that ( by jrmonroe). It can happen to any airline. It is just a bad luck to mas.

You're right, shazzy, it could happen to any airline, but it didn't. And it's not that one incident happened to Malaysia Airlines and the other incident happened to another airline. They both happened to Malaysia Airlines.

Humans have an ability to recognize patterns well beyond that of animals. Unfortunately, sometimes this causes people to see patterns where none exist. It's like looking at clouds and seeing a bunny rabbit, a person's face, etc. This is a well-known phenomenon. Consider the Rorschach Test.

Human brains want to see something. And when they see a quality in one or more situations involving a particular entity, they tend to associate that quality with that entity. In the case of Malaysia Airlines, the quality is death, a quality that is very strong and emotional.

On the other hand, if in the middle of a Malaysia Airlines flight, some anonymous rich guy got up from his first-class seat and walked around the airplane giving everyone 50-gram gold bars (~US$2,000), do you think more people might fly Malaysia Airlines? Of course! Even though it's highly unlikely to happen again, and it had happened on only one of its many flights.

Maybe that is what MAS should do for under their current operating procedures they are losing money. Malaysia Airlines recent financial problems worsened following Flight 370 disaster * - NY Daily News

In another report:

The airline was already losing about $1.6 million a day and has been in the red for the past three years. The disappearance of MH370 with many Chinese passengers on board also caused a backlash in the crucial Chinese market. Experts don’t see any short cuts to recovery.
“It cannot be a quick fix,” said Aziz. “So the second question is do they have the financial resources to survive a year, two years? And the answer is, unfortunately, no.”

from -
Can Malaysia Airlines salvage its brand after MH370 and MH17 tragedies? | News.com.au

Here is an interesting perspective ..

What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner? -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

Many Malaysia Airlines staff are arriving at work with tears in their eyes. ...

Some of them cannot fly because they have been affected mentally. ...

Back-to-back disasters that killed six pilots and 21 flight attendants have had a devastating impact on the morale on thousands of air crew and employees of Malaysia’s national carrier. ...

source

This is sad. We think of MAS as a company, but it's really full of people — about 20,000, and they are suffering too. They've lost almost 30 coworkers, and many know each others' families. Just imagine the many funerals some of them have attended and will attend.

This will also affect MAS's ability to survive. I don't see an easy solution. In the least, the name and logo must change. Would changing owners help? In other situations, basically, a scapegoat of sorts (eg, president, CEO, etc) is found and eliminated. But how to fix this "bad luck"?

There must be an enhanced, maybe even supercharged, focus on safety and precaution. Go above and beyond what other airlines do. MAS has also struggled financially for about ten years. Extra precautions typically cost a company money.

Originally Posted by marcbo

Here is an interesting perspective ..

What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner? -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

Who else takes this view? If the rebels hadn't taken down the plane they should have invited inspectors in immediately to prove to the world it wasn't them. All they have done now is to destroy the crime scene.

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

Many Malaysia Airlines staff are arriving at work with tears in their eyes. ...

Some of them cannot fly because they have been affected mentally. ...

Back-to-back disasters that killed six pilots and 21 flight attendants have had a devastating impact on the morale on thousands of air crew and employees of Malaysia’s national carrier. ...

source

This is sad. We think of MAS as a company, but it's really full of people — about 20,000, and they are suffering too. They've lost almost 30 coworkers, and many know each others' families. Just imagine the many funerals some of them have attended and will attend.

This will also affect MAS's ability to survive. I don't see an easy solution. In the least, the name and logo must change. Would changing owners help? In other situations, basically, a scapegoat of sorts (eg, president, CEO, etc) is found and eliminated. But how to fix this "bad luck"?

There must be an enhanced, maybe even supercharged, focus on safety and precaution. Go above and beyond what other airlines do. MAS has also struggled financially for about ten years. Extra precautions typically cost a company money.

New Zealanders are still flying Malaysia Airlines (this was mentioned on tonight's News) but it will take more than that.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by marcbo

Here is an interesting perspective ..

What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner? -- Paul Craig Roberts - PaulCraigRoberts.org

Who else takes this view? If the rebels hadn't taken down the plane they should have invited inspectors in immediately to prove to the world it wasn't them. All they have done now is to destroy the crime scene.

Who else takes this view ? Is the truth determined as a matter of consensus ?

The information presented in the link I provided is IMO very interesting, though I shy away from taking any view. But I do have the view that the agents of dissinformation are very powerful and convincing - on both sides.

The rebels ? Look like a bunch of thugs to me, and possibly had littile impetus to adopt the more proper actions you mentioned - they were probably more interested in rifling through purses and suitcases and collecting Rolex watches.

Interestingly, the Russians are now providing evidence that the plane was shadowed by a Ukranean fighter jet for some time immediately prior to the hit.

Originally Posted by Chucknorium

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Disappointed in the coverage on this story, . . .

I agree.

As long as the US government (and the US media) don't get too indignant. The US Navy accidentally shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 in the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 people aboard.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

​That plane was heading directly for a navel carrier if I recall. It was not sending a transponder signal either which is very suspicious especially when the plane was also off course. Adding those three things up there was little time to see where the plane was heading because it wasn't very far from the navel carrier.

Now this Russian missile was nor being targeted by the plane and the plane was heading away from the missile launcher not towards it as well. The plane had its transponder on and was on its known flightpath if anyone would have bothered to find out. So this aircraft that was shot down this time by the Russians wasn't doing anything to make anyone believe that it was.

Originally Posted by Chucknorium

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Disappointed in the coverage on this story, . . .

I agree.

As long as the US government (and the US media) don't get too indignant. The US Navy accidentally shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 in the Persian Gulf, killing all 290 people aboard.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That plane was heading directly for a navel carrier if I recall. It was not sending a transponder signal either which is very suspicious especially when the plane was also off course. Adding those three things up there was little time to see where the plane was heading because it wasn't very far from the navel carrier.

Now this Russian missile was nor being targeted by the plane and the plane was heading away from the missile launcher not towards it as well. The plane had its transponder on and was on its known flightpath if anyone would have bothered to find out. So this aircraft that was shot down this time by the Russians wasn't doing anything to make anyone believe that it was.

Originally Posted by cosmictraveler

That plane was heading directly for a navel carrier if I recall. It was not sending a transponder signal either which is very suspicious especially when the plane was also off course. Adding those three things up there was little time to see where the plane was heading because it wasn't very far from the navel carrier.

Please post the source for your above statement.

From wiki: Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The incident took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path.

All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died. This event ranks seventh among the deadliest disasters in aviation history.

The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.

As of 1993, the United States had not apologized to Iran.^[7] In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice, including a recognition of the incident in the form of "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the Loss of lives caused by the incident...".^[8] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

The US government and US media should at least acknowledge that the US has done this sort of horrible thing too.

Please post the source for your above statement.

The Vincennes had entered Iranian territorial waters after one of its helicopters drew warning fire from Iranian speedboats operating within Iranian territorial limits.[3] The US claimed that the Vincennes was "defending itself in international waters" but subsequent disclosures including the video taken on the bridge of the Vincennes and the ICAO report showed that the Vincennes had entered Iranians waters and initiated hostilities.

The actual location of the Vincennes was kept classified in the Fogarty report to Congress, and when confronted with the contradiction by Nightline, Admiral William Crowe dismissed the issue as irrelevant. The location of the Vincennes is muc more signifant than the squak mode you're emphasising since THAT was the subject that the US kept covered up -- because it meant taht the Vincennes could not claim self-defense. And you're deliberately ignoring that fact. This was teh subject of a major cover-up which Wikipedia is ignoring.


Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by marcbo

.....

Interestingly, the Russians are now providing evidence that the plane was shadowed by a Ukranean fighter jet for some time immediately prior to the hit.

I'll look into it. Maybe Bilvon could tell us what it all means.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

I'll look into it. Maybe Bilvon could tell us what it all means.

No idea. However if it was that should be pretty easy to prove or disprove - apparently we have the radar returns.

Originally Posted by billvon

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

I'll look into it. Maybe Bilvon could tell us what it all means.

No idea. However if it was that should be pretty easy to prove or disprove - apparently we have the radar returns.

I'll see if I can get the link to the diagragm that is in our local paper. You might then be able to give your opinion on the likelihood of it being factual. I'll have to research it.

If you can understand Russian this YT explains it all. Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs

Originally Posted by cosmictraveler

This was the subject of a major cover-up which Wikipedia is ignoring.


Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I sincerely hope that the US didn't shoot down the Iranian airliner intentionally, as the Iranians said. I would prefer to believe that it was a fatal, horrible accident.

Bottom line is the US Navy shot down a civilian airliner, killing 290 people. My original point still stands: The US government and US media can demonize whoever is at fault for this horrible deed in the Ukraine, as long as the US government remembers its own foul deed.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

I'll see if I can get the link to the diagragm that is in our local paper. You might then be able to give your opinion on the likelihood of it being factual. I'll have to research it.

If you can understand Russian this YT explains it all. Malaysian Airlines plane crash: Russian military unveil data on MH17 incident over Ukraine (FULL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bNPInuSqfs

I wouldn't trust Russia Times. One of their reporters resigned after being told that she had to lie on air about the Malaysian Airline crash and that they were literally just a Russian government mouthpiece.

A London-based correspondent of Kremlin-funded news channel Russia Today has resigned in protest at its coverage of the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.
Sara Firth, who worked at Russia Today for five years, described the channel’s reporting of the crash in which 298 people were killed, including a former BBC journalist, as the “straw that broke the camel’s back”.
Russia Today, which has been criticised as a propaganda mouthpiece for the Russian government, suggested Ukraine was to blame for the crash, while most media organisations have said it was shot down by a suspected Russian-made missile.
“It was the most shockingly obvious misinformation and it got to the point where I couldn’t defend it any more,” Firth told the Guardian.
“When this story broke that was the moment I knew I had to go. I walked into the newsroom and there was an eyewitness account making allegations [against Ukraine] and analysis, if you can call it, from our correspondent in the studio.
“It was just appalling, in a situation like that where there are families waiting to be informed and a devastating loss of life.”

Also, about what the radar actually showed:

A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before the plane went down, the senior U.S. official said. A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official said. The United States is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from, the official said.

As for MH17 or previously with Iran Air 655 — or maybe even KAL007, any intentional shooting down of an airliner full of innocents is a very serious offense rising to the level of a war crime, and to do so as a "false flag" action (aka ruse de guerre) in order to play on the sympathies of other nations is especially vile and treacherous. It is an all-or-nothing wager. If the ruse is uncovered, the consequences are rather dire for the perpetrators.

###

Originally Posted by marcbo

Is the truth determined as a matter of consensus ?

I'm not saying that the truth is only consensus, but sadly, consensus does enter into the equation. If the truth is evident, but no one believes it, oh well ...

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

As for MH17 or previously with Iran Air 655 — or maybe even KAL007, any intentional shooting down of an airliner full of innocents is a very serious offense rising to the level of a war crime, and to do so as a "false flag" action (aka ruse de guerre) in order to play on the sympathies of other nations is especially vile and treacherous. It is an all-or-nothing wager. If the ruse is uncovered, the consequences are rather dire for the perpetrators.

###

Originally Posted by marcbo

Is the truth determined as a matter of consensus ?

I'm not saying that the truth is only consensus, but sadly, consensus does enter into the equation. If the truth is evident, but no one believes it, oh well ...

Could you explain what you mean by "false flag action" please?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Could you explain what you mean by "false flag action" please?

Operating under a "false flag" to make it look like someone else did it. An example would be a Taliban member dressing in a US military uniform and then shooting a bunch of people in Afghanistan, hoping that the news would report that a US soldier had killed a bunch of people.

More airliners crash and/or go missing. I don't think that it's because were paying more attention to these mishaps, but I don't think there's anything in common with them either.

First TransAsia Airways flight GE222 crashed on a Taiwanese island while attempting to land there, and now Air Algerie flight AH 5017 went missing, now authorities say it crashed somewhere in northern Africa.

On the front page of my newspaper (Daily Telegraph, Sydney, Australia, 25 07 24)

'Robbing the dead of MH17'

And the report speaks of stolen credit cards from the corpes, stolen by the rebels .. but then used in the Ukraine ... What ???

Weird that - that the Russian rebels, would go to the Ukraine for their shopping spree ..

Pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels/separatists.

Originally Posted by jrmonroe

Pro-Russian Ukrainian rebels/separatists.

Yes and then later on the separatists might just merge into the rest of the Ukrainians. If they have a civil war there you won't be able to tell who is who.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Could you explain what you mean by "false flag action" please?

Billvon answered your question splendidly.

Probably the most infamous false flag action in modern history was the Gleiwitz incident.

The Gleiwitz incident was a false flag operation by Nazi forces posing as Poles on 31 August 1939, against the German radio station Sender Gleiwitz in Gleiwitz, Upper Silesia, Germany on the eve of World War II in Europe. The goal was to use the staged attack as a pretext on the basis of which to invade Poland.


This provocation was the best-known of several actions in Operation Himmler, a series of unconventional operations undertaken by the SS in order to serve specific propaganda goals of Nazi Germany at the outbreak of the war. It was intended to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany in order to justify the subsequent invasion of Poland.

source

Originally Posted by billvon

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Could you explain what you mean by "false flag action" please?

Operating under a "false flag" to make it look like someone else did it. An example would be a Taliban member dressing in a US military uniform and then shooting a bunch of people in Afghanistan, hoping that the news would report that a US soldier had killed a bunch of people.

Billvon I should have thanked you earlier for this explanation. Thanks.

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

Another interesting link ..

Originally Posted by marcbo

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

Another interesting link ..

Did you follow that lengthy article? What were the main points you got from it?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

What were the main points you got from it?

That you shouldn't read nutcase sites...

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

What were the main points you got from it?

That you shouldn't read nutcase sites...

Have you read that site before?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Have you read that site before?

No.
But:
A) it refers to global warming as a hoax, and
B) the main guy responsible for that site is also a major participant on Alex Jones' Info Wars nutcase site.
'nuff said.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Have you read that site before?

No.
But:
A) it refers to global warming as a hoax, and
B) the main guy responsible for that site is also a major participant on Alex Jones' Info Wars nutcase site.
'nuff said.

We don't get to see Alex Jones Info Wars other than through YT clips now and then.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by marcbo

MH17 Verdict: Real Evidence Points to US-Kiev Cover-up of Failed False Flag

Another interesting link ..

Did you follow that lengthy article? What were the main points you got from it?

I did.

The main point I got from it, was reinforcement of the message in poet Matthew Arnolds last several lines of 'Dover Beach', viz.,

... and we are here as on a darkling plain
Caught in confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies, clash by night.

Originally Posted by marcbo

....
I did.

The main point I got from it, was reinforcement of the message in poet Matthew Arnolds last several lines of 'Dover Beach', viz.,

... and we are here as on a darkling plain
Caught in confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies, clash by night.

Ok it sounds like you are confused too. I think the continual pressure on Russia might be enough for it to let the separatists sue for a ceasefire. They might go for a political settlement soon. Could there be rebel factions in the Russian military as well that are helping the Ukrainian Rebels without the Kremlin leaders knowledge?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by marcbo

....
I did.

The main point I got from it, was reinforcement of the message in poet Matthew Arnolds last several lines of 'Dover Beach', viz.,

... and we are here as on a darkling plain
Caught in confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies, clash by night.

Ok it sounds like you are confused too. I think the continual pressure on Russia might be enough for it to let the separatists sue for a ceasefire. They might go for a political settlement soon. Could there be rebel factions in the Russian military as well that are helping the Ukrainian Rebels without the Kremlin leaders knowledge?

Who knows ? If without the Kremlin leaders knowledge, then certainly without mine (or yours) I would suppose.

I posted the link (and the earlier one) because I think it's good to get various perspetives.

Originally Posted by marcbo

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by marcbo

....
I did.

The main point I got from it, was reinforcement of the message in poet Matthew Arnolds last several lines of 'Dover Beach', viz.,

... and we are here as on a darkling plain
Caught in confused alarms of struggle and flight
Where ignorant armies, clash by night.

Ok it sounds like you are confused too. I think the continual pressure on Russia might be enough for it to let the separatists sue for a ceasefire. They might go for a political settlement soon. Could there be rebel factions in the Russian military as well that are helping the Ukrainian Rebels without the Kremlin leaders knowledge?

Who knows ? If without the Kremlin leaders knowledge, then certainly without mine (or yours) I would suppose.

I posted the link (and the earlier one) because I think it's good to get various perspectives.

No there were burn marks on the ground in Russia that the US had detected (was it from a satellite or a plane? I don't know) and the Russians say it wasn't them but the signs are there. So There is the evidence but not the truth.
Just after I wrote my previous post the Russian Foreign Secretary was talking to Kerry saying they hope for a negotiated settlement. So it could happen, and it needs to be soon.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Ok it sounds like you are confused too. I think the continual pressure on Russia might be enough for it to let the separatists sue for a ceasefire. They might go for a political settlement soon. Could there be rebel factions in the Russian military as well that are helping the Ukrainian Rebels without the Kremlin leaders knowledge?

Why would they quit? It's very early by insurgency standards (most last more than ten years) and they have the hearts and minds of a large minority of Eastern Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Ok it sounds like you are confused too. I think the continual pressure on Russia might be enough for it to let the separatists sue for a ceasefire. They might go for a political settlement soon. Could there be rebel factions in the Russian military as well that are helping the Ukrainian Rebels without the Kremlin leaders knowledge?

Why would they quit? It's very early by insurgency standards (most last more than ten years) and they have the hearts and minds of a large minority of Eastern Ukraine.

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.
Without continual Russian support the rebels would definitely be beaten rapidly. It will be a trade off, won't it?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Wir haben in Europa keine territorialen Forderungen zu stellen.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Perhaps, though it does them no good to have the Ukraine continue to be a dysfunctional neighbor.

Without continual Russian support the rebels would definitely be beaten rapidly. It will be a trade off, won't it?

Doubtful. Insurgencies are notoriously difficult to defeat and nearly impossible if they have good support from the people.

Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Perhaps, though it does them no good to have the Ukraine continue to be a dysfunctional neighbor.

Without continual Russian support the rebels would definitely be beaten rapidly. It will be a trade off, won't it?

Doubtful. Insurgencies are notoriously difficult to defeat and nearly impossible if they have good support from the people.

It is a bit of a wait and see.

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Wir haben in Europa keine territorialen Forderungen zu stellen.

Google translated that German to English as "We have to make no territorial claims in Europe"
That could mean a number I suppose. Who is "we"? "We" the Russians? "We" the Germans?

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Wir haben in Europa keine territorialen Forderungen zu stellen.

Google translated that German to English as "We have to make no territorial claims in Europe"
That could mean a number I suppose. Who is "we"? "We" the Russians? "We" the Germans?

It's a quote attributed to Adolf Hitler, who uttered it to British premier Chamberlain during appeasement negotiations. "We are making no territorial demands in Europe." This was of course right before Adolf invaded Poland. The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh, bub?

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

Originally Posted by CEngelbrecht

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

It sounded a bit like Russia could live with a democratic Ukraine as long as the Crimea Peninsula remained Russian.

Wir haben in Europa keine territorialen Forderungen zu stellen.

Google translated that German to English as "We have to make no territorial claims in Europe"
That could mean a number I suppose. Who is "we"? "We" the Russians? "We" the Germans?

It's a quote attributed to Adolf Hitler, who uttered it to British premier Chamberlain during appeasement negotiations. "We are making no territorial demands in Europe." This was of course right before Adolf invaded Poland. The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh, bub?

Thanks for the better translation and clarifying it's origin and meaning.

What! You don't believe Putin based on Hitler's lies? There have been lies alright.

Originally Posted by Robittybob1

What! You don't believe Putin based on Hitler's lies? There have been lies alright.

That is actually my point. I personally see a lot of analogies between Adolf's fatherland and Vladimir's motherland. Both lost a major conflict (the Great War vs. the Cold War), which they felt like they didn't really loose. Like the Germans in 1919, now the Russians are since 1989 left with a sensation of having been cheated out of their national erection. And that instills the worst of reactions in a people trying to get it back up, even though they are now effectively impotent. (Americans haven't exactly been their same either, since their 'honorable' pull out from Vietnam. What the hell are they gonna do, when commie China puts a chink on the surface of Mars before them?)

Putin himself has said that the fall of the Soviet Union was the worst catastrophe in modern times. So he seems to be oblivious or indefferent as to the shortcomings of that political system. (And it doesn't help either, that American right wingers are gloating like crazy, especially since Americans had nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union.) With his current moves with annexing Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, I can only see, that Putin wants to get the world map back to pre 1989, similar to how Hitler wanted to get the world map back to pre 1914. By any means necessary. And what ever he can get away with he'll get away with, if no one stops him. In Ukraine, Vladimir's even making use of the same type of hoodlums that Adolf made use of in Munich with the SA. The type of people that aparently can't tell commercial and military planes apart.


Charming fella, ain't he? This is a guy, that only has a gun, 'cause he doesn't get laid. Those are the chaps, that Putin are arming, 'cause he can't send in the glorious Red Army outright. Not yet, anyways.

I have to say, I foresee Vladimir leading Mother Russia towards the same type of downfall as Adolf did with his Vaterland. All in the name of dumb pride. But that's me. I actually winded up agreeing with Hillary Clinton.