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Thread: Missing airliner Malaysian Airlines flight MH370

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    Scarier still if it has landed somewhere. The terrorist will now have a very good plane to set up as a suicide bomb. And they have been told where the last signal was coming from. Somewhere near the top of the plane. They'll want to rip that out before they fly again.
    The fact that the cellphones were still able to to be rung was an indicator it made it to land somewhere IMO.

    In one of the videoed scenes a Chinese man is recorded as saying that was what was happening to his son's cellphone. Well there could be other explanations of course. He might have left it at the airport or at home.
    How many people were in this category? How many cellphones were still able to be rung?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 15th, 2014 at 05:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    And I find the lack of basic radar coverage darn hard to believe--we're talking really really old tech.
    Radar coverage is good only over land areas; over open ocean the coverage is spotty at best. It would only take going below a certain altitude to not show up on any land-based civilian radar system. I don't know what the situation with military systems is, though.
    Military systems are longer range, but can't get closer to the surface of the sea unless they're mounted on a ship or an AWACS that can go there.

    Radar operators call the low altitudes "(hiding) in the grass" and mean it's where they can't see well.
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    Anyone wanting to help search for the airliner can do so with tomnod/com, a crowdsourcing project created by DigitalGlobe. In the Mongolian language, the word tomnod means "big eye". Apparently the satellite images are of the Gulf of Thailand, although the site plans to add more relevant ocean areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The fact that the cellphones were still able to to be rung was an indicator it made it to land somewhere IMO.
    The "ringing" we hear when calling a cell phone is a courtesy to let us know that the phone system is processing the call and trying to connect. (Basically, it means "Don't hang up, we're looking all around the wireless phone networks and attempting to connect to the other phone.) It does not indicate that the other cell phone is ringing or even that it has been found by a tower.

    news article
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The fact that the cellphones were still able to to be rung was an indicator it made it to land somewhere IMO.
    The "ringing" we hear when calling a cell phone is a courtesy to let us know that the phone system is processing the call and trying to connect. (Basically, it means "Don't hang up, we're looking all around the wireless phone networks and attempting to connect to the other phone.) It does not indicate that the other cell phone is ringing or even that it has been found by a tower.

    news article
    Thanks
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...1226856141490#
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    ~ BREAKING NEWS ~ and that there is none, is very disappointing. Tragic is the word best used. That we discuss and evaluate every little aspect. That we now are told that After going 'Off screen' that plain may have stayed in flight for SEVEN hours. That a number of land masses become possible destinations. That it might just have flown on to run out of fuel I doubt. None of the possibles is off the table yet.. Waiting for that 'Breaking News' must surely do the head in of the families and loved ones of those missing.. That we watch and wait... I am amazed that in 2014 in a area that could be described as busy. That with all nations and technical skills... we as yet know nothing.
    The possibles are... Its still in one piece landed and hidden.. It's at the bottom of the sea. That we have not found any sign of it yet only means we have not looked in the right place yet. Everything else is speculation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Scarier still if it has landed somewhere. The terrorist will now have a very good plane to set up as a suicide bomb.
    A stolen 777 is not a very good "suicide bomb" due to a great many things, including how much fuel it needs, its large radar cross section, the runway it needs etc. It is also currently the most searched after object on the planet; it is going to be much harder than normal to "sneak" it anywhere.

    Compare that to, for example, a Cessna 206. Super cheap, easy to fly, can take off from a dirt field - and air traffic controllers are not looking for them, and indeed are somewhat used to them appearing off-course in the weeds due to their popularity with low time pilots. If you want to get a ton of high explosives somewhere you're not going to use a stolen 777.

    The fact that the cellphones were still able to to be rung was an indicator it made it to land somewhere IMO.
    Just means the network is looking for the phone. Doesn't mean the phone is ringing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Scarier still if it has landed somewhere. The terrorist will now have a very good plane to set up as a suicide bomb.
    A stolen 777 is not a very good "suicide bomb" due to a great many things, including how much fuel it needs, its large radar cross section, the runway it needs etc. It is also currently the most searched after object on the planet; it is going to be much harder than normal to "sneak" it anywhere.

    Compare that to, for example, a Cessna 206. Super cheap, easy to fly, can take off from a dirt field - and air traffic controllers are not looking for them, and indeed are somewhat used to them appearing off-course in the weeds due to their popularity with low time pilots. If you want to get a ton of high explosives somewhere you're not going to use a stolen 777.

    The fact that the cellphones were still able to to be rung was an indicator it made it to land somewhere IMO.

    Just means the network is looking for the phone. Doesn't mean the phone is ringing.
    If the Boeing 777 flew over a US aircraft carrier ladened with dirty uranium is the US going to shoot it down and if the pilot does a kame kase attack on the ship will it be able to get out of the way in time?
    It is one thing to shoot down a Cessna but a potential passenger filled airliner??? That creates a moment of deadly hesitation.
    Or do all big Boeings now become suspicious targets now? They have to locate this one and eliminate it.
    BTW How far can a Cessna 206 fly in one go?
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    Speculation sure has a tendency to run wild.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Speculation sure has a tendency to run wild.
    Who thought they would attack the World Trade Center with two planes? You have to realize you guys are at war.
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    Astromark, disappointing indeed. It reminds me of the Gulf War, where the US government couldn't allow the media to report on their activities real time, otherwise it would be like playing poker with their cards face up on the table.

    As for this thread, I was hoping we could solve this mystery real-time or at least before the officials do.

    The US is working with Malaysia, which undoubtedly has a different mindset/culture than us about publicizing what its govt is doing. Either the Malaysian govt is proceeding at its own pace with regards to sharing data with the other govts or the other govts are receiving data pretty much real-time from Malaysia and are respecting Malaysia's methodology and are "chesting their own cards", as it were. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the Malaysian govt's shortcomings, so it's hard to tell.

    So, the possible unmonitored flying time went from a few hours to seven hours.

    What puzzles me is that, once the plane reached the Indian Ocean, it supposedly either flew northwest or southeast, which are diametrically opposed.

    And before that, there was talk about the possibility of someone keeping the plane for future use. That stuck out like a sore thumb.

    ###

    Edited to add the following —

    Malaysia has faced accusations that it isn't sharing all its information or suspicions about the plane's final movements, which have been the subject of constant media leaks both in Malaysia and the United States. Najib said that he understood the need for families to receive information, but that his government wanted to release only fully corroborated information.

    He said that from Day One, the country had been sharing information with international investigators, even when it meant placing "national security concerns" second to the search, a likely reference to its release of military radar data. U.S., British and Malaysian air safety investigators have been on the ground in Malaysia to assist with the investigation.
    source
    Last edited by jrmonroe; March 16th, 2014 at 02:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Astromark, disappointing indeed. It reminds me of the Gulf War, where the US government couldn't allow the media to report on their activities real time, otherwise it would be like playing poker with their cards face up on the table.

    As for this thread, I was hoping we could solve this mystery real-time or at least before the officials do.

    The US is working with Malaysia, which undoubtedly has a different mindset/culture than us about publicizing what its govt is doing. Either the Malaysian govt is proceeding at its own pace with regards to sharing data with the other govts or the other govts are receiving data pretty much real-time from Malaysia and are respecting Malaysia's methodology and are "chesting their own cards", as it were. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the Malaysian govt's shortcomings, so it's hard to tell.
    Vietnam and then China made their feelings very clear about the way Malaysia was handling this investigation. Their disgust and distrust and belief that Malaysia was withholding information resulted in Vietnam withdrawing from the sea search within a few days. The complaint was that Malaysia knew something and simply wasn't telling them and they believed that Malaysia was simply not being forthcoming with radar and satellite information. They were right. They knew where the plane was headed and when their own people spoke and said the planes had turned towards the Indian Ocean, the Malaysian Government denied it. For a week. They did have the information all along and said nothing. They didn't even raise the possibility that it had flown towards the Indian Ocean and they did everything they could to water down any hint that it had. China has been very public with its disgust with how Malaysia has handled it and rightly so.

    And China slammed Malaysia for taking seven days to make the information public, ratcheted up its criticism in news commentary saying either a “dereliction of duty or reluctance to share information” was to blame.

    Malaysia Airlines said it had not gone public with information that the plane continued to fly for hour after last contact because it needed time to confirm the satellite data.
    How or why they withheld information that it was flying for hours after it lost contact, only they know. A week lost as they willingly encouraged searching in an area they knew the plane was not in. Their military satellites and radar had already tracked it flying back over Malaysia and out to the Indian Ocean. And they said nothing. I don't know what's worse? Then again, cannot say I am surprised. They did not declare the plane missing hours later and left the people waiting in Beijing for hours thinking it was delayed when they knew it was missing

    So, the possible unmonitored flying time went from a few hours to seven hours.
    For the most part, it was monitored. The military was tracking it but did nothing because it apparently did not look hostile.

    What puzzles me is that, once the plane reached the Indian Ocean, it supposedly either flew northwest or southeast, which are diametrically opposed.

    And before that, there was talk about the possibility of someone keeping the plane for future use. That stuck out like a sore thumb.
    If only Malaysia had advised of all of this much earlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Astromark, disappointing indeed. It reminds me of the Gulf War, where the US government couldn't allow the media to report on their activities real time, otherwise it would be like playing poker with their cards face up on the table.

    As for this thread, I was hoping we could solve this mystery real-time or at least before the officials do.

    The US is working with Malaysia, which undoubtedly has a different mindset/culture than us about publicizing what its govt is doing. Either the Malaysian govt is proceeding at its own pace with regards to sharing data with the other govts or the other govts are receiving data pretty much real-time from Malaysia and are respecting Malaysia's methodology and are "chesting their own cards", as it were. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the Malaysian govt's shortcomings, so it's hard to tell.
    Vietnam and then China made their feelings very clear about the way Malaysia was handling this investigation. Their disgust and distrust and belief that Malaysia was withholding information resulted in Vietnam withdrawing from the sea search within a few days. The complaint was that Malaysia knew something and simply wasn't telling them and they believed that Malaysia was simply not being forthcoming with radar and satellite information. They were right. They knew where the plane was headed and when their own people spoke and said the planes had turned towards the Indian Ocean, the Malaysian Government denied it. For a week. They did have the information all along and said nothing. They didn't even raise the possibility that it had flown towards the Indian Ocean and they did everything they could to water down any hint that it had. China has been very public with its disgust with how Malaysia has handled it and rightly so.

    And China slammed Malaysia for taking seven days to make the information public, ratcheted up its criticism in news commentary saying either a “dereliction of duty or reluctance to share information” was to blame.

    Malaysia Airlines said it had not gone public with information that the plane continued to fly for hour after last contact because it needed time to confirm the satellite data.
    How or why they withheld information that it was flying for hours after it lost contact, only they know. A week lost as they willingly encouraged searching in an area they knew the plane was not in. Their military satellites and radar had already tracked it flying back over Malaysia and out to the Indian Ocean. And they said nothing. I don't know what's worse? Then again, cannot say I am surprised. They did not declare the plane missing hours later and left the people waiting in Beijing for hours thinking it was delayed when they knew it was missing

    So, the possible unmonitored flying time went from a few hours to seven hours.
    For the most part, it was monitored. The military was tracking it but did nothing because it apparently did not look hostile.

    What puzzles me is that, once the plane reached the Indian Ocean, it supposedly either flew northwest or southeast, which are diametrically opposed.

    And before that, there was talk about the possibility of someone keeping the plane for future use. That stuck out like a sore thumb.
    If only Malaysia had advised of all of this much earlier.
    How often do plane's transponders breakdown? So if an airliner passes overhead without transponder going what would the air force do? Like the question I asked above what would the US do if it flew over a military ship? Are they going to follow it? They certainly wouldn't shoot it down without reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How often do plane's transponders breakdown? So if an airliner passes overhead without transponder going what would the air force do? Like the question I asked above what would the US do if it flew over a military ship? Are they going to follow it? They certainly wouldn't shoot it down without reason.
    Often enough that there are two complete systems in case one fails. The systems both rely on the planes regular power supply so if the electrical systems fail the transponders stop working.
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    i wonder about air france. taking many days too to find it. but no country questioning their capability and integrity. Many country had slammed Malaysia. The govt had it own's reason why they hide itbecause of soooooo many conspiracy theories,accusation and assumptions. Now, the PM had confirmed the plane might been hijacked. The govt also had reject any intervention by interpol. Most Malaysian supported it because they afraid we might become like the other Muslim countries. Example when US want to find Osama, they declare war with his home country, not war with Osama only..Are there any possibility that it will happened like that?
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    I am glad to see somebody finally mentioned Air France flight 477.
    Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    China's one-child policy implemented for the last 40 years has caused severely restricted family trees and extreme consequences in such disasters. For example, if a married couple is killed, two or maybe four families lose an entire generation, and if the couple didn't have a child, those families lines become extinct.

    The concept of "family" in China is much more important than in western culture. Some Chinese practice ancestor worship. Chinese children are taught to hold their parents and other relatives in very high regard. Parents take care of their children when they are young, and in return, the children take care of their parents when they become elderly — it's their form of social security. Most Chinese are horrified at the thought of putting their elderly relatives into nursing homes.

    The father of a passenger on the missing plane said, "I hope the plane was hijacked, because then, at least, there is hope [...] But if the worst happened, then I will have no meaning in my life. This is my only son". As he walked away, he bent his head and cried.

    source

    Interpol is basically a clearinghouse/database for crimes with international implications, and it facilitates international police cooperation. It does not have a police force, and it does not police the world. It doesn't go into action in the field. For example, it doesn't investigate crimes or "seek" someone's arrest. It doesn't have the power to arrest suspects, and if somehow it did, it doesn't even have a jail to hold them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shazzy View Post
    i wonder about air france. taking many days too to find it. but no country questioning their capability and integrity. Many country had slammed Malaysia. The govt had it own's reason why they hide itbecause of soooooo many conspiracy theories,accusation and assumptions. Now, the PM had confirmed the plane might been hijacked. The govt also had reject any intervention by interpol. Most Malaysian supported it because they afraid we might become like the other Muslim countries. Example when US want to find Osama, they declare war with his home country, not war with Osama only..Are there any possibility that it will happened like that?
    They only declared war on Afghanistan because they would not hand Bin Laden over when he was in their country.
    Like if this plane has landed in a country and that country deliberately keeps it quiet to me they have declared war on Malaysia.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26603830
    Are they ready for it?
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 16th, 2014 at 03:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    If the Boeing 777 flew over a US aircraft carrier ladened with dirty uranium is the US going to shoot it down
    Hell yes. Unidentified plane, one presumed hijacked, flying over a US carrier? The only question would be where they wanted the wreckage to impact.

    and if the pilot does a kame kase attack on the ship will it be able to get out of the way in time?
    It would be shot down long before it was a threat to the carrier. They practice for this stuff many times a year, and a missile attack on a carrier is near the top of the list.

    It is one thing to shoot down a Cessna but a potential passenger filled airliner??? That creates a moment of deadly hesitation.
    We've done it before and we didn't hesitate.

    Or do all big Boeings now become suspicious targets now?
    No, just ones attacking US carriers.

    BTW How far can a Cessna 206 fly in one go?
    Depending on model and options 600-1200 miles.
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    How far can a Cessna 206 fly in one go?

    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Depending on model and options 600-1200 miles.
    So with a Cessna you couldn't fly non-stop to the coast from Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan or Azerbaijan.
    (Coast = Indian Ocean)

    Why does the mystery of Malaysia MH370 hold such fascination for us? http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...r-us-1.1725901
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 16th, 2014 at 09:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    People enjoy puzzles, mysteries, and the human mind fills gaps in knowledge with speculation. This is beginning to appear like an elaborate hijacking.
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    This article asks some real pertinent questions. I hope they try and eliminate all these as soon as possible. Finding wreckage elsewhere is one option. Maybe drones could be used to pick it up if it is Afghanistan or Pakistan.

    "Was Flight 370 flown into a Taliban area?" Was Flight 370 flown into a Taliban area? - National - NZ Herald News
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    India Continues Search for MH370 as Malaysia Ends Hunt in South China Sea - India Real Time - WSJ
    Debunking MH370 Conspiracy Theories

    I've posted those two links just for the pictures of the two ranges.

    If you overlap the fuel range of the MH370 and its last known location from the satellite ping there are two areas of intercept.
    What I have just determined is that if the plane flew for the next 7 and half hours to the West, forgive me if I''m wrong but that would mean it was still during the night when it could have been over Pakistan/Afghanistan border area, and unless they were expecting a plane to arrive the runway lights would have all been off.
    How was someone going to land a plane at a random airstrip without any help in the night? Can that be done?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How was someone going to land a plane at a random airstrip without any help in the night? Can that be done?
    It can be but is quite "sporty." An RNAV approach will get you to within a few hundred feet of the runway, at which point you either see it (and land) or go around.

    Of course there aren't many airports that can handle a 777 AND aren't lit at night as a matter of course, either full time or via a PCL system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How was someone going to land a plane at a random airstrip without any help in the night? Can that be done?
    It can be but is quite "sporty." An RNAV approach will get you to within a few hundred feet of the runway, at which point you either see it (and land) or go around.

    Of course there aren't many airports that can handle a 777 AND aren't lit at night as a matter of course, either full time or via a PCL system.
    Pilot-controlled lighting and Random Area Navigation both would need specific facilities on the ground to handle that. That must limit the number of places that have this plus the length of runway to handle a 777.

    So if it was a spur of the moment decision to go rogue he picked the wrong area if he flew North, but even if he flew south there are fewer places to land and it would just becoming dawn down in Australia. Dawn is around 6:00 AM in NZ at the moment.
    Malaysia and Perth are on the same time zone.
    Kabul is 3.30 hours behind Malaysia, Around 1:00 AM plus 7 hours flying - time zone difference would make it still 4:30 AM in the Afghanistan area.
    So if it is later and longer flying time it could just about be dawn in Kabul too!
    Not a good time to arrive unannounced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Pilot-controlled lighting and Random Area Navigation both would need specific facilities on the ground to handle that.
    RNAV approaches can be flown with GPS, and most aircraft's inertial navigation systems are even better than GPS. Navigation wouldn't be a problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Pilot-controlled lighting and Random Area Navigation both would need specific facilities on the ground to handle that.
    RNAV approaches can be flown with GPS, and most aircraft's inertial navigation systems are even better than GPS. Navigation wouldn't be a problem.
    Is that navigation to an airport? But landing in the dark could still be an issue if there was no one to turn on the lights (in the absence of the PCL and RNAV systems operating, is that right? But if the pilot has to land he has to make up his mind where that's going to be for there is a limited amount of fuel on board. To be flying at that time 7 and half hours later means he has messed up somewhat for his tanks must have been real low by that time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Speculation sure has a tendency to run wild.
    Who thought they would attack the World Trade Center with two planes?.
    Ugh... everyone. they'd been after the WTC since it went up
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Is that navigation to an airport? But landing in the dark could still be an issue if there was no one to turn on the lights
    Again, you're not going to find many hard surfaced 5000+ foot runways that do not have some form of lighting.

    But if the pilot has to land he has to make up his mind where that's going to be for there is a limited amount of fuel on board. To be flying at that time 7 and half hours later means he has messed up somewhat for his tanks must have been real low by that time.
    Depends on a great many things including altitude (higher altitudes are more efficient in mpg) and speed (you can fly for a lot longer than 7.5 hours at maximum endurance speed)
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Speculation sure has a tendency to run wild.
    Who thought they would attack the World Trade Center with two planes?.
    Ugh... everyone. they'd been after the WTC since it went up
    I traveled to America the year before and I thought their border control was slack. Once the 9/11 happened they tightened up the checks at the airports. What were they doing now? Finger prints and facial recognition and retina photos?
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    We speculate and wonder.. and now out from Perth looking in the Great Indian Ocean.. I am beginning to think we may never actually know what has become such a complex issue.. I am staggered that we know so little of the fate of that flight.. still. I have a cousin driving a long rigs up the coast from Fremantle ( Perth ) I must tell him to be on the lookout for something shinny...

    ~ I hear it as ridiculous to find the 'co pilot' was the voice..' Goodnight, goodbye'.. At that point the crew select the next station and switch contact.. I do NOT see anything odd with that.. It was after 1 am..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    How was someone going to land a plane at a random airstrip without any help in the night? Can that be done?
    It can be but is quite "sporty." An RNAV approach will get you to within a few hundred feet of the runway, at which point you either see it (and land) or go around.

    Of course there aren't many airports that can handle a 777 AND aren't lit at night as a matter of course, either full time or via a PCL system.
    Pilot-controlled lighting and Random Area Navigation both would need specific facilities on the ground to handle that. That must limit the number of places that have this plus the length of runway to handle a 777.

    So if it was a spur of the moment decision to go rogue he picked the wrong area if he flew North, but even if he flew south there are fewer places to land and it would just becoming dawn down in Australia. Dawn is around 6:00 AM in NZ at the moment.
    Malaysia and Perth are on the same time zone.
    Kabul is 3.30 hours behind Malaysia, Around 1:00 AM plus 7 hours flying - time zone difference would make it still 4:30 AM in the Afghanistan area.
    So if it is later and longer flying time it could just about be dawn in Kabul too!
    Not a good time to arrive unannounced.
    Except in the local paper there were hundreds of places it could have landed.
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    I'm beginning to think this whole event is a primer for a new television series:

    LOST: The Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    I'm beginning to think this whole event is a primer for a new television series:

    LOST: The Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.
    After we find out what happened there surely will be a film adaptation. And a documentary. Several, in fact.
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    I invite you to look at Google Earths view of the Islands of the 'Maldives' and a little south to 'Diego Garcia'.. I would just want to know 'Why' ? I will " Speculate" to look very closely at the shallow surrounds of the Maldives.. and that it makes a great movie set...
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    I invite you to look at Google Earths view of the Islands of the 'Maldives' and a little south to 'Diego Garcia'.. I would just want to know 'Why' ? I will " Speculate" to look very closely at the shallow surrounds of the Maldives.. and that it makes a great movie set...
    Fire in the cockpit, pilot changes course at the last moment, but both pilot and copilot die. Plane flies level for the next 7 hours till the fuel runs out. The dramatic bit starts when the passengers realize they didn't pass over Shanghai so they set up an action plan to see if the can land the thing, but no one has flying experience.
    That is my plot at the moment.

    Whether it is shot down by the Chinese as it enters their country or just runs out of fuel I'm not sure, but I'd think by the amount of the Northern ping arc being in China that is where it ended up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Speculation sure has a tendency to run wild.
    Who thought they would attack the World Trade Center with two planes?.
    Ugh... everyone. they'd been after the WTC since it went up
    I traveled to America the year before and I thought their border control was slack. Once the 9/11 happened they tightened up the checks at the airports. What were they doing now? Finger prints and facial recognition and retina photos?
    Yeah probably but the problem is it's all reactive rather than proactive. you don' need all this heightened security, we just a need a way to address the problems before they show up.
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  38. #138  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Fire in the cockpit, pilot changes course at the last moment, but both pilot and copilot die. Plane flies level for the next 7 hours till the fuel runs out.
    Or - pilots screw up, overspeed, structural damage ensues and they experience explosive decompression. The plane gyrates wildly until both pilots pass out as a result of hypoxia. Once they release the yokes the plane returns to straight and level flight on a different heading. Damage takes out about half the electrical system.

    Or - plane stalls and spins into the ocean. Inmarsat ping turns out to be another mistake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Fire in the cockpit, pilot changes course at the last moment, but both pilot and copilot die. Plane flies level for the next 7 hours till the fuel runs out.
    Or - pilots screw up, overspeed, structural damage ensues and they experience explosive decompression. The plane gyrates wildly until both pilots pass out as a result of hypoxia. Once they release the yokes the plane returns to straight and level flight on a different heading. Damage takes out about half the electrical system.

    Or - plane stalls and spins into the ocean. Inmarsat ping turns out to be another mistake.
    Explosive decompression, - is that from flying too high?
    What is "release the yokes" mean?
    Do the pilots recover in your scenario?
    Up till now no one has introduced the idea of a short term fire in the front of the plane, even though a New Zealander working on an oil rig saw something like this.
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 18th, 2014 at 05:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Explosive decompression, - is that from flying too high?
    No, it's from any large and sudden opening in the fuselage. A few 747's have experienced this when they had cargo door failures in flight.

    What is "release the yokes" mean?
    Letting go of the controls. Most control problems can be solved by letting go of the controls and letting the aircraft recover itself.

    Do the pilots recover in your scenario?
    They might recover after they run out of fuel and are descending, although at that point they can't really do anything (and may not have enough time to do secondary tasks like communicating.) Or they might suffer brain damage from being at a high enough altitude for long enough and never recover. Or they might be injured or killed by whatever secondary effects the structural failure occurred. (Of course now we are getting into more and more bizarre scenarios.)

    As another example of a bizarre incident, in 1996 TWA flight 800 exploded at about 13,000 feet and separated into two pieces. The cockpit and forward fuselage fell towards the ocean, while the rear of the aircraft, including the wings and the engines, continued to climb for about a minute. It was right off the coast of Long Island and thus there were a lot of witnesses (and good radar coverage) so their flight path could be reconstructed.

    Up till now no one has introduced the idea of a short term fire in the front of the plane, even though a New Zealander working on an oil rig saw something like this.
    That's not unlikely. A fire could 1) cause electrical problems, 2) necessitate a sudden course change and 3) incapacitate the crew. However the fire need not be visible for that to happen.
    Last edited by billvon; March 18th, 2014 at 06:56 PM.
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    Plane satellite image uncovered
    Plane satellite image uncovered - asia - world | Stuff.co.nz

    Is this a clue?
    [Sorry the link to the photo doesn't work as I had intended. Maybe the picture has been withdrawn.]
    Last edited by Robittybob1; March 19th, 2014 at 01:47 PM.
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    I am 99% sure this has been mentioned but:

    Tomnod
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    this is not comforting....I am about to fly
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    this is not comforting....I am about to fly
    C'mon you are far more safer flying, than driving to/from the Airport. You know this.
    Last edited by MrMojo1; March 19th, 2014 at 05:51 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    this is not comforting....I am about to fly
    Well, keep in mind that almost 100 people a DAY die driving in the US. Overall flying is still a lot safer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Explosive decompression, - is that from flying too high?
    No, it's from any large and sudden opening in the fuselage. A few 747's have experienced this when they had cargo door failures in flight.

    What is "release the yokes" mean?
    Letting go of the controls. Most control problems can be solved by letting go of the controls and letting the aircraft recover itself.

    Do the pilots recover in your scenario?
    They might recover after they run out of fuel and are descending, although at that point they can't really do anything (and may not have enough time to do secondary tasks like communicating.) Or they might suffer brain damage from being at a high enough altitude for long enough and never recover. Or they might be injured or killed by whatever secondary effects the structural failure occurred. (Of course now we are getting into more and more bizarre scenarios.)

    As another example of a bizarre incident, in 1996 TWA flight 800 exploded at about 13,000 feet and separated into two pieces. The cockpit and forward fuselage fell towards the ocean, while the rear of the aircraft, including the wings and the engines, continued to climb for about a minute. It was right off the coast of Long Island and thus there were a lot of witnesses (and good radar coverage) so their flight path could be reconstructed.

    Up till now no one has introduced the idea of a short term fire in the front of the plane, even though a New Zealander working on an oil rig saw something like this.
    That's not unlikely. A fire could 1) cause electrical problems, 2) necessitate a sudden course change and 3) incapacitate the crew. However the fire need not be visible for that to happen.
    CNN had an item this morning saying how the pilots could have been acting heroically, and this fits the observations too. Only thing that bugs me is this person on the oil rig seeing "a plane on fire". If it was flying toward him could the flames be over the front of the plane? I could imagine if there was some skin damage the flames could be on the outside as well as in the cockpit. But somehow the flames went out and allowed the plane to continue disabled for the next 7 hours.
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    On what specifically is this assumption based and how certain is it?

    08:11: Seven hours after contact with air traffic control was lost, a satellite above the Indian Ocean picked up data from the plane. This last communication with a satellite, disclosed a week after the plane's disappearance, suggested the jet was in one of two flight corridors, one stretching north between Thailand and Kazakhstan, the other south between Indonesia and the southern Indian Ocean.
    source

    — and they don't really mean "flight" corridors, they mean "transmission" corridors, don't they? A flight corridor makes it sound like the plane was flying along the corridor, but the plane could have been flying perpendicular to the corridor, but happened to be in it when it transmitted, right?
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    On what specifically is this assumption based and how certain is it?

    08:11: Seven hours after contact with air traffic control was lost, a satellite above the Indian Ocean picked up data from the plane. This last communication with a satellite, disclosed a week after the plane's disappearance, suggested the jet was in one of two flight corridors, one stretching north between Thailand and Kazakhstan, the other south between Indonesia and the southern Indian Ocean.
    source

    — and they don't really mean "flight" corridors, they mean "transmission" corridors, don't they? A flight corridor makes it sound like the plane was flying along the corridor, but the plane could have been flying perpendicular to the corridor, but happened to be in it when it transmitted, right?
    AFAIK they are ranges from the satellite that received the ping. So they are ranges and where these intercept with a flight path they would pinpoint a location at the time of the ping.
    The DomPost has a diagram with two flight paths narrowing the search area to somewhere in the Southern Indian Ocean. (I've got no web link at this stage.)
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  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    CNN had an item this morning saying how the pilots could have been acting heroically, and this fits the observations too. Only thing that bugs me is this person on the oil rig seeing "a plane on fire". If it was flying toward him could the flames be over the front of the plane?
    Sure, front tire fires are not unheard of in passenger aircraft (especially aircraft operated in warm climates near their loading limits.)

    I could imagine if there was some skin damage the flames could be on the outside as well as in the cockpit. But somehow the flames went out and allowed the plane to continue disabled for the next 7 hours.
    A front tire fire is very problematic because the front wheel well is very close to the avionics bay on most aircraft. Thus a fire could easily cause problems to the avionics (i.e. radios, transponders, ACARS, navigation systems etc.)

    However if the fire remained isolated it would eventually burn itself out due to depletion of fuel. At that point several things might happen:

    1) The pilots might have no control of the aircraft; it would wander around and eventually crash.
    2) The pilots might have limited control of the aircraft (i.e. trim tabs but no direct surface controls) in which case they might change course and attempt to go to an alternative airport. In this case they might well have flown for hours with no communications and navigation, trying to find an airport by dead reckoning and with paper charts.
    3) Smoke and/or damage to pressurization controls could have incapacitated or killed the crew.
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    The FBI is now investigation deleted data from pilot's hard drives and a flight simulator.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    The FBI is now investigation deleted data from pilot's hard drives and a flight simulator.
    We all have stuff deleted from out hard drives. It would be a different thing if the entire hard drive had wiped.
    What is the ultimate way to wipe a hard drive? Is it delete it and then refill it with random numbers so every bit has been overwritten?
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    reformat it and then write over it so every bit has been overwritten. Most wiping programs run multiple passes when overwriting just to make sure the data is not recoverable.

    Deleting files just removes them from the file table so the location can be written over again. It does not actually remove the file data and usually the main file table has a backup location so it can be rebuilt if needed.

    Data erasure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  53. #153  
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    "How often do plane's transponders breakdown? So if an airliner passes overhead without transponder going what would the air force do? Like the question I asked above what would the US do if it flew over a military ship? Are they going to follow it?"

    Two transponder failures in 16 years in my experience.

    In Europe and UK, the Airforce will send two armed fighter jets up to make visual contact with the airliner. Assuming the military pilots can see that the commercial jet's pilots are alive, they will tell them (using known signals) to follow. The jets will escort the airliner to a suitable airfield and order it to land. If the airliner fails to obey the military jet's orders, the decision about what to do passes to the appropriate Prime Minister.

    I should imagine that the response would be similar in other parts of the world.

    OB
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  54. #154  
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    Quote Originally Posted by One beer View Post
    "How often do plane's transponders breakdown? So if an airliner passes overhead without transponder going what would the air force do? Like the question I asked above what would the US do if it flew over a military ship? Are they going to follow it?"
    Two transponder failures in 16 years in my experience.
    And to add to that, there are a fair number of intentional shutdowns. Sometimes this happens upon ATC request (i.e. "please cycle mode C") sometimes it happens while attempting to debug a problem (i.e. smoke in the cockpit) and sometimes it's done for less-noble reasons (i.e. to avoid being identified.)
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    Has anybody mentioned this report, I haven't seen anything in the previous comments?


    Thailand's military detected the missing Malaysia Airlines jet flying off course just minutes after it changed direction, but did not share the information with Malaysia.
    ...
    If the information had been passed on it could have saved days of wasted effort in the wrong search area.
    ...
    An "unknown aircraft was detected at 12:28am (1:28am Malaysian time), six minutes after MH370 vanished" in the South China Sea moving south-west back towards its origin in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur and the Strait of Malacca, he told AFP.
    That timing corresponds with the last transmission from the aircraft's transponder at 1:21am Malaysian time, which relayed information about the plane's altitude and location.
    Although the signal was sporadic, the aircraft was later again picked up by Thai radar swinging north and disappearing over the Andaman Sea, Air Marshal Monthon added.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-19/malaysia/5332052

    And this is a point which is obvious once you think about it, diplomatic procedures and clearances for foreign planes to enter various countries' airspace. Some search areas have still not been covered because they're waiting for these formal processes.


    Some sources involved in the investigation have voiced fears it could stall due to the reluctance of countries in the region to share militarily sensitive radar data that might shed new light on the direction the jet took.
    Two people familiar with the investigation said the search had been hampered in some cases by delays over the paperwork needed to allow foreign maritime surveillance aircraft into territorial waters without a formal diplomatic request.
    "These are basically spy planes; that's what they were designed for," said one source close to the investigation, explaining the hesitance of some nations to give blanket permission for other countries to scour their waters.
    Mr Hussein confirmed that some assets that could be involved in the search were waiting for diplomatic clearance.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-20/chinese-relatives-anger-erupts-in-malaysia-over-lost-plane/5332842


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    Two possible objects found in search for MH370 http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/two-pos...-mh370-5869770

    That is encouraging!
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    That item doesn't say where they are, but the ABC reports it as in "the Indian Ocean" - 3000 kms southwest of Perth. Better known as in the middle of nowhere.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    this is not comforting....I am about to fly
    Well, keep in mind that almost 100 people a DAY die driving in the US. Overall flying is still a lot safer.
    Is that supposed to make me wanna kiss you or something? *laughing*
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    If they can lose a plane of this size and not know where it went it sure makes me suspect all their spy stuff is not as good as they claim it is.
    If something that big was untrackable on radar then what hope would any of these countries have of detecting a drug smuggler's plane or an enemy missile?
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    If something that big was untrackable on radar then what hope would any of these countries have of detecting a drug smuggler's plane or an enemy missile?
    Radar? 3000km southwest of Perth? There's nothing there.

    The only radar or other surveillance in the area would be military, and that not all the time I would have thought. (They wouldn't tell us anyway.) And it's not one of the most travelled shipping routes since the days of sailing ships needing the roaring forties to get maximum speed.

    The area where the satellite images have shown up was further south than the search area allocated to Australia in the first place. In fact, I'd not be surprised if some people referred to that area as being the Southern Ocean rather than Indian Ocean.
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    One main point to take notice of is, every one is focused on the missing plane. If a plane can go that easily underacted by simply playing around with the electronics on board, how will they manage when real atomic bombs are coming?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    One main point to take notice of is, every one is focused on the missing plane. If a plane can go that easily underacted by simply playing around with the electronics on board, how will they manage when real atomic bombs are coming?
    Don't be silly. There are whole early warning radar systems designed and devoted specifically to the task of scanning the skies day and night for incoming ICBM warheads. Look up BMEWS.

    Mind you, there's damn-all you can do unless you have ABMs. You just get a few minutes to kiss your wife and children and say your prayers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    If something that big was untrackable on radar then what hope would any of these countries have of detecting a drug smuggler's plane or an enemy missile?
    Radar? 3000km southwest of Perth? There's nothing there.

    The only radar or other surveillance in the area would be military, and that not all the time I would have thought. (They wouldn't tell us anyway.) And it's not one of the most travelled shipping routes since the days of sailing ships needing the roaring forties to get maximum speed.

    The area where the satellite images have shown up was further south than the search area allocated to Australia in the first place. In fact, I'd not be surprised if some people referred to that area as being the Southern Ocean rather than Indian Ocean.
    Yes, however they lost track of the plane in the South China Sea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    One main point to take notice of is, every one is focused on the missing plane. If a plane can go that easily underacted by simply playing around with the electronics on board, how will they manage when real atomic bombs are coming?
    Atomic bombs generally don't fly low over the Indian Ocean enroute to the US.

    However, if your point is "someone could fly a nuclear weapon into many countries just by flying low and reducing radar cross section!" - yes, they could.
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    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.

    Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole - World - NZ Herald News
    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out."It would in the first instance confirm human intervention," he told the Nine Network.
    Other experts believe it is still possible the plane suffered a decompression, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious, and flew on until its fuel was exhausted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.
    Especially compared to the pilots! They're in a much better position to save the plane.

    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out.
    That doesn't follow at all. The very first thing a pilot will do when faced with a serious fire is to turn the aircraft towards the nearest airstrip they can land safely at. The pilot's mantra is "aviate, navigate, communicate." In this case it means his first duty is to fly the plane, and his second one is to navigate it to a safe landing.

    Recall what we've seen:

    A dramatic course change
    A loss of communications
    A climb
    A long flight after that apparently in one direction

    That lines up pretty well with the fire scenario. It proceeds thusly:

    Pilot notices smoke in the cockpit rapidly getting worse.
    He immediately turns towards a safe airport. Meanwhile his copilot starts pulling circuit breakers for every non-essential system to put the fire out. They lose radios, transponder and ACARS.
    Nothing helps. Smoke gets worse and they are about to be overcome. (Keep in mind that during a fire, using oxygen is a no-no.) They try climbing as a last ditch method to put the fire out. There is some logic to this if the fire is outside the aircraft, as would be the case during a landing gear fire (a not-unheard-of problem.)
    They are overcome by smoke and the aircraft resumes its last programmed heading. (Or just the heading it was on when the pilot lost consciousness.) The aircraft maintains the heading until it runs out of fuel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.
    Especially compared to the pilots! They're in a much better position to save the plane.

    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out.
    That doesn't follow at all. The very first thing a pilot will do when faced with a serious fire is to turn the aircraft towards the nearest airstrip they can land safely at. The pilot's mantra is "aviate, navigate, communicate." In this case it means his first duty is to fly the plane, and his second one is to navigate it to a safe landing.

    Recall what we've seen:

    A dramatic course change
    A loss of communications
    A climb
    A long flight after that apparently in one direction

    That lines up pretty well with the fire scenario. It proceeds thusly:

    Pilot notices smoke in the cockpit rapidly getting worse.
    He immediately turns towards a safe airport. Meanwhile his copilot starts pulling circuit breakers for every non-essential system to put the fire out. They lose radios, transponder and ACARS.
    Nothing helps. Smoke gets worse and they are about to be overcome. (Keep in mind that during a fire, using oxygen is a no-no.) They try climbing as a last ditch method to put the fire out. There is some logic to this if the fire is outside the aircraft, as would be the case during a landing gear fire (a not-unheard-of problem.)
    They are overcome by smoke and the aircraft resumes its last programmed heading. (Or just the heading it was on when the pilot lost consciousness.) The aircraft maintains the heading until it runs out of fuel.
    OK if all that happens can the passengers still survive if the fire was limited to the cockpit?

    That was my hope (imagination only) that the passengers might have attempted maneuvers within the passenger section to turn the plane around by adjusting their mass. For it was the only thing left that they could do once the pilots were overcome by smoke (as in the above scenario).
    If all the passengers went to one side of the plane would that cause it to bank around at all? But as you might say the auto-navigation systems would correct for that tilting.
    I'd be interested to hear your opinion on that?
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  68. #168  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    OK if all that happens can the passengers still survive if the fire was limited to the cockpit?
    If the fire spread to the cabin, or they lost cabin pressure? Doubtful. If not? Maybe.

    That was my hope (imagination only) that the passengers might have attempted maneuvers within the passenger section to turn the plane around by adjusting their mass. For it was the only thing left that they could do once the pilots were overcome by smoke (as in the above scenario).
    Moving even half the people (say 2000 pounds) 10 feet in one direction really isn't going to do much to an aircraft with a wingspan of 200 feet and a takeoff weight of half a million pounds. And even if they could do that, how would they turn the airplane? The cabin will be dark, likely filled with smoke, and no one has any idea as to where they are or what direction they are headed.

    In any case, if the pilots were unconscious or dead, the cabin crew could still get into the cockpit, so the above would not be necessary.
    Last edited by billvon; March 20th, 2014 at 07:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    OK if all that happens can the passengers still survive if the fire was limited to the cockpit?
    If the fire spread to the cabin, or they lost cabin pressure? Doubtful. If not? Maybe.

    That was my hope (imagination only) that the passengers might have attempted maneuvers within the passenger section to turn the plane around by adjusting their mass. For it was the only thing left that they could do once the pilots were overcome by smoke (as in the above scenario).
    Moving even half the people (say 2000 pounds) 10 feet in one direction really isn't going to do much to an aircraft with a wingspan of 200 feet and a takeoff weight of half a million pounds. And even if they could do that, how would they turn the airplane? The cabin will be dark, likely filled with smoke, and no one has any idea as to where they are or what direction they are headed.



    In any case, if the pilots were unconscious or dead, the cabin crew could still get into the cockpit, so the above would not be necessary.



    If all the passengers went to one side of the plane would that cause it to bank around at all? But as you might say the auto-navigation systems would correct for that tilting.
    I'd be interested to hear your opinion on that?
    [/QUOTE]
    What security would be between the cockpit and the passengers? I thought they prevented access now. So if the cabin crew still have access a hijacker could just threaten a cabin crew to get access to the cockpit. That doesn't seem like security.
    Do you know about this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What security would be between the cockpit and the passengers? I thought they prevented access now. So if the cabin crew still have access a hijacker could just threaten a cabin crew to get access to the cockpit.
    No, they can't. The cockpit crew can keep them out. I would prefer not to go too much more into it on a public website, but you can probably find out more by doing some searching.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.

    Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole - World - NZ Herald News
    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out."It would in the first instance confirm human intervention," he told the Nine Network.
    Other experts believe it is still possible the plane suffered a decompression, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious, and flew on until its fuel was exhausted.
    What if they had no clue something was wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.

    Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole - World - NZ Herald News
    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out."It would in the first instance confirm human intervention," he told the Nine Network.
    Other experts believe it is still possible the plane suffered a decompression, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious, and flew on until its fuel was exhausted.
    What if they had no clue something was wrong?
    As they got over China they would be looking for the lights of Shanghai, and when that didn't happen there would have been a few words spoken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.

    Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole - World - NZ Herald News
    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out."It would in the first instance confirm human intervention," he told the Nine Network.
    Other experts believe it is still possible the plane suffered a decompression, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious, and flew on until its fuel was exhausted.
    What if they had no clue something was wrong?
    As they got over China they would be looking for the lights of Shanghai, and when that didn't happen there would have been a few words spoken.
    If there were no communication to them that something was wrong, how would they know something was wrong, or how would they know they were over China, or anywhere? It is very plausible the people on the flight, if there were any, did not know there was something wrong. The other side is people are speculating and ideas upon ideas are going around the world, I just can't help but notice a sort of diversion from certain things happening at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I'm no expert on planes but I think the passengers tried to save the plane, but were very limited in what they could do.

    Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole Missing aircrafts 'pings' point to path towards Pole - World - NZ Herald News
    If the debris is confirmed to be from MH370, security expert Neil Fergus said a technical malfunction or fire could be ruled out."It would in the first instance confirm human intervention," he told the Nine Network.
    Other experts believe it is still possible the plane suffered a decompression, rendering the crew and passengers unconscious, and flew on until its fuel was exhausted.
    What if they had no clue something was wrong?
    As they got over China they would be looking for the lights of Shanghai, and when that didn't happen there would have been a few words spoken.
    If there were no communication to them that something was wrong, how would they know something was wrong, or how would they know they were over China, or anywhere? It is very plausible the people on the flight, if there were any, did not know there was something wrong. The other side is people are speculating and ideas upon ideas are going around the world, I just can't help but notice a sort of diversion from certain things happening at the moment.
    I'm sure if the flight crew weren't in contact with the pilot and copilot I'm sure they were aware there was something amiss.
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    Having traveled frequently a awareness is established as to direction ONLY if you are aware of your surroundings.. The aircraft might pitch and roll a little as it encounters a weather front.. a little later as the dawn approached I would expect a brightening of the eastern horizon.. which should if I was crossing China..be to my right. At 1.15 am looking out the windows would reveal nothing... As a astronomer I might have looked but for the fact that only the window seats see anything at all. A very high probability that nothing was known of what might have happened up front.. That 'Billvon' has imagined is as my best bet yet.. We try to imagine all the possible 'what if's' and can not yet know any of it. Uncomforting as that is.. We may never know..
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Having traveled frequently a awareness is established as to direction ONLY if you are aware of your surroundings.. The aircraft might pitch and roll a little as it encounters a weather front.. a little later as the dawn approached I would expect a brightening of the eastern horizon.. which should if I was crossing China..be to my right. At 1.15 am looking out the windows would reveal nothing... As a astronomer I might have looked but for the fact that only the window seats see anything at all. A very high probability that nothing was known of what might have happened up front.. That 'Billvon' has imagined is as my best bet yet.. We try to imagine all the possible 'what if's' and can not yet know any of it. Uncomforting as that is.. We may never know..
    So true but you only need one person to start yelling out that they are going the wrong way and within minutes the rumour would be right around the plane, if they were still alive at that stage.
    They might be sending you on another mission!
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  77. #177  
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    News tonight showed the flight deck of the Boeing 777 and the position of the two nav., aids that were turned off.. One just in front of and to the right of the pilots right knee. The other right up at instrument level on the co pilots side only.. Right of center. Either of the two person flight crew could have turned them off.. I can only imagine that a emergency was not declared because it could not be. The aircraft was turned towards nearest airfields and then 'Nothing more until the engines ran out of fuel.. What happened on that flight deck may never be more than unknown.. Yet we can find a new land slide on Mars... Interesting a ?

    ~ and no, The R V Tangaroa is a research and science vessel. It could be that it has the equipment required for finding metal objects in very deep water. Yes it is well equipped, but no. I will not be going again to the Southern Ocean.
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  78. #178  
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    Having worked in troubleshooting and reliability, there comes a time when investigators begin to entertain alternative theories.

    Multiple failure. This is a nightmare because, let's say a system can fail in 100 different ways (and 100 is a really low number). The number of dual failures amounts to about 100² or 10,000 failure modes. Troubleshooting/reliability people don't want to consider dual failures because of their great number and because it opens a really big can of worms.

    Extreme failure. This is not such a nightmare, but still a bad dream. Consider the Concorde crash. A small piece from another aircraft that had fallen onto the runway caused Concorde to suffer a tire blowout during takeoff, which caused a large piece of tire to strike the fuel tank in the wing, which created pressure waves that breached the tank, which caused the plane to catch fire and crash. Or with Flight MH370, let's say it was crew suicide, but wanting to do it in a big and memorable way, decides to crash the plane in Antarctica, where it won't be found for decades (if ever) — a decades-long mystery followed by a shocking discovery of hundreds of freeze-dried bodies.
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    The video attached to this News Link shows a second sharp turn! Who did that? There must have been survivors after the plane had the fire.
    Missing Malaysia Airlines Plane: 3rd Object Spotted by Satellite Brings New Lead in Jet Search - ABC News
    3rd Object Spotted by Satellite Brings New Lead in Jet Search
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  80. #180  
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    ~ I have spent some time researching how this turning off of nav., aids transponders and a radio silence and can only draw speculative conclusions that the flight deck was compromised.. A sudden dramatic air pressure loss and no attempt to lower alt to survive the sudden air pressure loss. Yet it seems the heading was altered to the nearest air fields.. Yet it seems like know one was able to attempt a landing at those places the aircraft went near.. It is beginning to seem like it flew on to run out of fuel ...
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    A big thank you to the nations contributing to the search — Australia, Bangladesh, Brunei, Cambodia, China, France, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, United States, and Vietnam.

    Special thanks for those nations without any citizens on the flight — Bangladesh, Brunei, Cambodia, Japan, Myanmar, Norway, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore, South Korea, Thailand, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, and Vietnam.

    An extra special thanks to Norway, Höegh Autoliners, its CEO Ingar Skiaker, the Höegh St. Petersburg car carrier (below), and its all-Filipino captain and crew for responding to the Australian Maritime Safety Authority to assist in the search and then volunteering to remain in the area for as long as it was needed. The Höegh St. Petersburg was the first surface vessel to reach the search area, and when other search efforts would end due to nightfall, the Höegh St. Petersburg would continue searching at reduced speed and with all spotlights available. After the Höegh St. Petersburg assisted for several days, the AMSA released it from its participation, and it now continues toward its destination of Melbourne Australia.

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    Malaysian prime minister announces that Flight MH370 ended in the southern Indian Ocean with no hope of survivors.

    source

    People criticize Malaysia for taking so long with everything ... involving other countries, publicizing facts, searching, drawing conclusions, etc.

    One important point that people may not realize involves eliminating other possibilities. Sure, Malaysia may operate slowly and with some incompetence (and have its own ways of doing things — ie, not only governmental procedure, but also when and how to draw conclusions in general). However, I think that they wanted to eliminate other possibilities before publicizing such a drastic conclusion.

    Also notice who issued this conclusion, the Malaysian prime minister, who probably needed to issue such devastating news but probably didn't want to issue a hasty but wrong/bizarre conclusion. He probably had to be the one to issue such news, but would have been a laughing stock if he was wrong. I mean, the southern Indian Ocean may as well be the South Pole, right? Imagine the whole world searching the southern Indian Ocean, whereas, let's say, the flight had really crashed 100 miles off the Malaysian coast and lives were lost because no one had looked for it there.

    I really don't know the Malaysian culture or politics, maybe someone who knows Malaysia can explain more about it.

    Because the flight's ultimate destination (ie, the southern Indian Ocean) appears diametrically opposed to its intended/official destination (Beijing), the means by which it reached its destination seems evil. Malaysia may also may have not wanted to admit this so readily.

    With the almost perfect nonexistence of data, this matter essentially became one huge rumor mill. Although not exactly Malaysia's fault, the lack of data also points toward evil as well as a high level of expertise. This seems to cast serious suspicion on the pilot and/or co-pilot.
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  83. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    The video attached to this News Link shows a second sharp turn! Who did that?
    A dying autopilot? A malfunction caused by fire? A pilot who was trying to navigate without instruments or lights on a dark night over the ocean? An upset caused by turbulence? Hard to say.
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    Dispersion's and doubt, Suspicion and mistrust. Will not be found to be a the cause of MH 370's failure to reach destination. Not a hijacking nor a terrorist bombing.. but a run of sudden unscheduled events.. The number of air accidents that have been not the fault of a single mistake, but a run of events that seem to be a fiction writers work. Are astounding. When a record of what we know is compared to what is possible and it might stop you flying at all.. Did you know that the drop down oxygen masks only work for 12 ~ 15 mins.. and that, that is enough if the plane can be controlled to descend quickly. Had there been a sudden eruption of fire on the flight deck.. filling the cabin with Poisson gasses from a cargo fire ? or just a wiring fail.. Front wheel fire, cargo bay issues.. I have heard reported a consignment of batteries was part of the manifest. What else was in there.. After the sign off from ATC, nothing... but a sudden change of direction and altitude.. nothing.. I think unconsciousness and death flew that Boeing till it ran out of fuel.. ~ and, will we ever know ? What do you think happened.. It's all we have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Dispersion's and doubt, Suspicion and mistrust. Will not be found to be a the cause of MH 370's failure to reach destination. Not a hijacking nor a terrorist bombing.. but a run of sudden unscheduled events.. The number of air accidents that have been not the fault of a single mistake, but a run of events that seem to be a fiction writers work. Are astounding. When a record of what we know is compared to what is possible and it might stop you flying at all.. Did you know that the drop down oxygen masks only work for 12 ~ 15 mins.. and that, that is enough if the plane can be controlled to descend quickly. Had there been a sudden eruption of fire on the flight deck.. filling the cabin with Poisson gasses from a cargo fire ? or just a wiring fail.. Front wheel fire, cargo bay issues.. I have heard reported a consignment of batteries was part of the manifest. What else was in there.. After the sign off from ATC, nothing... but a sudden change of direction and altitude.. nothing.. I think unconsciousness and death flew that Boeing till it ran out of fuel.. ~ and, will we ever know ? What do you think happened.. It's all we have.
    Find the Black Box and find me some evidence. I still think it could have taken the Northern Route. (Just to be the Devil's advocate.)
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  86. #186  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Dispersion's and doubt, Suspicion and mistrust. Will not be found to be a the cause of MH 370's failure to reach destination. Not a hijacking nor a terrorist bombing.. but a run of sudden unscheduled events.. The number of air accidents that have been not the fault of a single mistake, but a run of events that seem to be a fiction writers work. Are astounding. When a record of what we know is compared to what is possible and it might stop you flying at all.. Did you know that the drop down oxygen masks only work for 12 ~ 15 mins.. and that, that is enough if the plane can be controlled to descend quickly. Had there been a sudden eruption of fire on the flight deck.. filling the cabin with Poisson gasses from a cargo fire ? or just a wiring fail.. Front wheel fire, cargo bay issues.. I have heard reported a consignment of batteries was part of the manifest. What else was in there.. After the sign off from ATC, nothing... but a sudden change of direction and altitude.. nothing.. I think unconsciousness and death flew that Boeing till it ran out of fuel.. ~ and, will we ever know ? What do you think happened.. It's all we have.
    Find the Black Box and find me some evidence. I still think it could have taken the Northern Route. (Just to be the Devil's advocate.)
    ~ I have little doubt that a great effort will be made to procure the Black boxes or box.. but the South Indian Ocean is mostly 5~ 6 Km deep.. That 5,000 metres is a cold dark place and that it's a maybe still never.. maybe. Lol
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    Now relatives of passengers are complaining that this conclusion has been drawn without wreckage. Poor Malaysia can't catch a break either way. Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion? There's simply not much evidence. China's government is requesting to see all the raw data.

    Australia has promised to continue searching until the plane/black boxes are found. Admittedly, the Bayesian search theory is pretty cool. I read a book describing how experts used it to locate the fourth atomic bomb that a US B-52 lost off the coast of Spain in 1966 and one of their subs that sank.

    As for how well some satellites can identify objects from space, doesn't the US have spy satellites that can read the headline of a newspaper lying on the ground?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Now relatives of passengers are complaining that this conclusion has been drawn without wreckage. Poor Malaysia can't catch a break either way. Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion? There's simply not much evidence. China's government is requesting to see all the raw data.

    Australia has promised to continue searching until the plane/black boxes are found. Admittedly, the Bayesian search theory is pretty cool. I read a book describing how experts used it to locate the fourth atomic bomb that a US B-52 lost off the coast of Spain in 1966 and one of their subs that sank.

    As for how well some satellites can identify objects from space, doesn't the US have spy satellites that can read the headline of a newspaper lying on the ground?
    Well they seem to be able to tap into your breakfast habits and everything else. You'd think so, however I don't think the general populace is privy to that type of clearance or information.
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    Poor Malaysia can't catch a break either way. Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion? There's simply not much evidence. China's government is requesting to see all the raw data.
    Won't they have to get it from the Brits?

    Malaysia Airlines MH370: British satellite company Inmarsat studied missing plane's pings to plot final route - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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    Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion?


    They weren't slow at all. Even in the US, which has among the most well developed aviation monitoring and investigations assets seldom releases even a preliminary findings in less than 2 weeks with the final reports almost always taking more than a year. It actually appears they are jumping the gun given there appears to be almost no verifiable facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion?


    They weren't slow at all. Even in the US, which has among the most well developed aviation monitoring and investigations assets seldom releases even a preliminary findings in less than 2 weeks with the final reports almost always taking more than a year. It actually appears they are jumping the gun given there appears to be almost no verifiable facts.
    Very much agree. This is acknowledged by most commentators to have been one of the most inexplicable and hard to locate aircraft losses of all time and yet Malaysia seems to be being blamed from every side.

    It seems that, due to the absence of facts about the location of the aircraft, news reporters have focused instead on the Chinese relatives and are whipping up a storm of synthetic outrage, on the basis of nothing more than that these people are (understandably) upset. The Chinese government is doing its best to insinuate incompetence, certainly. I am sure that Malaysia's media management skills have yet to scale the heights they have in the West (am I the only one who rather admires them for that?), but that is not the same as technical or managerial incompetence.

    Actually I've been impressed by the level of quiet international cooperation on this, free from grandstanding - apart, that is, from the Chinese.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    Now relatives of passengers are complaining that this conclusion has been drawn without wreckage. Poor Malaysia can't catch a break either way. Why do they think Malaysia took so long to draw a conclusion? There's simply not much evidence. China's government is requesting to see all the raw data.

    Australia has promised to continue searching until the plane/black boxes are found. Admittedly, the Bayesian search theory is pretty cool. I read a book describing how experts used it to locate the fourth atomic bomb that a US B-52 lost off the coast of Spain in 1966 and one of their subs that sank.

    As for how well some satellites can identify objects from space, doesn't the US have spy satellites that can read the headline of a newspaper lying on the ground?
    How will they find the box when it is not there?
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  93. #193  
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    How will they find the box when it is not there?
    It's somewhere.

    These things don't evaporate. The big issue is that there's only about 2 weeks left for the signal to keep emitting. And it's at the bottom of the ocean - somewhere - 5 or 6 kilometres below the surface. This is not the Mediterranean we're talking about here. The area is gigantic and the depths are huge.

    It's all very well to say they've narrowed the search area down from 2+ million sq kms. But there aren't enough ships in the world close enough, let alone appropriately equipped, to get to the area and to cover the "reduced" area adequately. If they do get a hit on its location, it'll be a triumph of technology aided by lashings of serendipity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    How will they find the box when it is not there?
    It's somewhere.

    These things don't evaporate. The big issue is that there's only about 2 weeks left for the signal to keep emitting. And it's at the bottom of the ocean - somewhere - 5 or 6 kilometers below the surface. This is not the Mediterranean we're talking about here. The area is gigantic and the depths are huge.

    It's all very well to say they've narrowed the search area down from 2+ million sq km s. But there aren't enough ships in the world close enough, let alone appropriately equipped, to get to the area and to cover the "reduced" area adequately. If they do get a hit on its location, it'll be a triumph of technology aided by lashings of serendipity.
    ~ and just a pinch of good old fashioned luck.. Peep. . . . peep . . . . peep, and we have not herd it yet. Oh yes to serendipity.
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  95. #195  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ and just a pinch of good old fashioned luck.. Peep. . . . peep . . . . peep, and we have not herd it yet. Oh yes to serendipity.
    Yep. Keep in mind that it took over 2 years to find the Air France FDR/CVR's - and they had a better idea of where to search.
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  96. #196  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ and just a pinch of good old fashioned luck.. Peep. . . . peep . . . . peep, and we have not herd it yet. Oh yes to serendipity.
    Yep. Keep in mind that it took over 2 years to find the Air France FDR/CVR's - and they had a better idea of where to search.
    Will they keep looking this long in this case?
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    A spokesperson for the Australian Navy has gone on record; " The search for and recovery of the in flight recorders is our goal. I foresee no stopping until recovery, complete."
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    I see in some ' News' releases today some discussions of the pilots private life. ' That he was experiencing instabilities at home and with a relationship.. That it remains my view that this professional pilot might well have died while attempting to get flight 370 down safe.. Until we know differently ( and we do not ) I will reject such wild speculations of the media.
    And @ Robettybob1.. they after scanning data from a automated engine management system placed the 'Peep' West of Perth Australia. That seems to put aside the Northern flight path. I am reluctant to accept speculative thinking..
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    To much unknown in this entire thing.

    Everyone has their own opinion.

    Some are kind of nutty, some have merit.

    Personally, I don't think we know anything at all....so speculation will continue.

    Human nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    To much unknown in this entire thing.

    Everyone has their own opinion.

    Some are kind of nutty, some have merit.

    Personally, I don't think we know anything at all....so speculation will continue.

    Human nature.
    Very important the whole world is focused on the missing plane and I think there is something that we are not seeing, wish I knew what.
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