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Thread: spike lee,zimmerman black panthers

  1. #1 spike lee,zimmerman black panthers 
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    have you heard spike lee tweeted on twitter the address of a 70 year old couple he thought was Zimmermans who shot t martin?

    the new black panthers have put a bounty on zimmerman

    Obama says nothing


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    The president already did in his measured responses the other day. "I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen," he added. "And that means we examine the laws and the context for what happened, as well as the specifics of the incident."


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    Obama said nothing about the black panthers or Spike Lee. He fanned the flames of racial hate with his remark about how Trayvon looked like him. What does that mean? What if Trayvon didn't look like Obama. I guess he wouldn't care about it then.
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    I didn't take his comments as inciting racial hate, but of a parent empathizing a loss of a child. I believe his actual words were "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin." Looking at pictures of both of them, they do have similar shaped faces.

    I'd find his comments were no different than any other President relating in sympathy/empathy to a tragic incident.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    I didn't take his comments as inciting racial hate, but of a parent empathizing a loss of a child. I believe his actual words were "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin." Looking at pictures of both of them, they do have similar shaped faces.

    I'd find his comments were no different than any other President relating in sympathy/empathy to a tragic incident.
    Did he show any sympathy for white persons killed by black persons (of which there are twice as many as blacks killed by whites?) No. He had no reason to comment on this at all except to jump on the wagon with the race baiting lynch mob. He sees a political advantage, and that's why he did it.
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    [/QUOTE]
    He sees a political advantage, and that's why he did it.[/QUOTE]

    He is a politician, that is what politician do especially during an election year. The rest of his speech was a classic example of a President to use the "bully pulpit" for a further investigation. A few weeks ago he placed a call to Sandra Fluke after she was attacked on the air waves. He gave the reason to call her was because he thought of his daughters. I find it no different when a bunch of politicians became involved in the family matter of Terri Schiavo, except that Florida Legislature and the US Congress passed legislation and George W. Bush signed to keep her alive despite her and her husband wishes.

    Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps Obama was ingnoring all the other crimes that happen daily for he has no sympathy at all for them. Perhaps he was ignoring all the men that have been "slut labelled" by liberal media outlets. Perhaps the politicians that made dozens legislative bills revolving Terri Shiavo, have no sympathy at all for those children at St. Jude Hospital fighting cancer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    I didn't take his comments as inciting racial hate, but of a parent empathizing a loss of a child. I believe his actual words were "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin." Looking at pictures of both of them, they do have similar shaped faces.

    I'd find his comments were no different than any other President relating in sympathy/empathy to a tragic incident.
    Did he show any sympathy for white persons killed by black persons (of which there are twice as many as blacks killed by whites?) No. He had no reason to comment on this at all except to jump on the wagon with the race baiting lynch mob. He sees a political advantage, and that's why he did it.
    Wow, im sorry but thats going a bit far even for you Harold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Wow, im sorry but thats going a bit far even for you Harold.
    That caught me by surprise too. I double checked the attribution to make sure it wasn't Holmes.

    There are certain events in which there is a public expectation that the President or Prime Minister or appropriate political leader will speak. Here we see Holmes, the self espoused racist condemning Obama for not having spoken, and Harold - who now comes across here as a closet segregationist - who condemns him for having spoken. I have an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    There are certain events in which there is a public expectation that the President or Prime Minister or appropriate political leader will speak.
    This isn't one of them. There are hundreds of killings in the country every day. This makes the news because some people want to stir up racial hatred, and there isn't even any evidence it was a racial incident.
    Here we see Holmes, the self espoused racist condemning Obama for not having spoken, and Harold - who now comes across here as a closet segregationist - who condemns him for having spoken. I have an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
    So do I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    There are certain events in which there is a public expectation that the President or Prime Minister or appropriate political leader will speak.
    This isn't one of them. There are hundreds of killings in the country every day. This makes the news because some people want to stir up racial hatred, and there isn't even any evidence it was a racial incident.
    Here we see Holmes, the self espoused racist condemning Obama for not having spoken, and Harold - who now comes across here as a closet segregationist - who condemns him for having spoken. I have an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
    So do I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    I didn't take his comments as inciting racial hate, but of a parent empathizing a loss of a child. I believe his actual words were "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin." Looking at pictures of both of them, they do have similar shaped faces.

    I'd find his comments were no different than any other President relating in sympathy/empathy to a tragic incident.
    I agree. I, and I think most Americans and parents took it as an empathic and personally moving observation. Any parent could have thought and said the same thing--he's a man not a machine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Wow, im sorry but thats going a bit far even for you Harold.
    That caught me by surprise too. I double checked the attribution to make sure it wasn't Holmes.

    There are certain events in which there is a public expectation that the President or Prime Minister or appropriate political leader will speak. Here we see Holmes, the self espoused racist condemning Obama for not having spoken, and Harold - who now comes across here as a closet segregationist - who condemns him for having spoken. I have an unpleasant taste in my mouth.
    I kind of understand what he is trying to say, or at least I think I might.... And this story, and everything surrounding it, is being fueled and pushed by racist and hatred. If this Zimmerman (?) guy was black, it would not be a story and the racists would not be upset... Obama, unfortunately, picked up on it and decided to inject his race and the race of this kid into the situation as well, and Obama, like the racist jumping on this, have only done so because the kid was black and Zimmerman is not black.

    Regardless of what happens or what the outcome is of this situation, I would not be surprised if Obama will be seen by the Latin community in a much different light. They have had their children killed, they deal with these issues all the time and Obama has never reached out to, or for, those children's families. Is it because their children don't look like Obama? Is it because their skin is a different color?

    It was just not smart for Obama to inject himself into the situation and it was even dumber for him to do so while declaring it moved him because he and the kid share the same skin color and race.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 1st, 2012 at 01:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I agree. I, and I think most Americans and parents took it as an empathic and personally moving observation. Any parent could have thought and said the same thing--he's a man not a machine.
    There are plenty of reports out there that state this 17 year old kid was a drug using, violent thug who was out of control, and who's parents let him get tatted all up at 17 and allowed him to run the streets. There is reports of him assaulting a buss driver, getting busted with a pocket full of woman's jewelry... There are also plenty of reports that state Zimmerman said the 17 year old boy attacked him, hit him then started banging his head against the ground.

    If this is the case, if this happened, I do not personally know anyone who would be empathetic or personally moved by the 17 year old boy or either of his parents. If you attack someone in America, you may very well get shot by that person.

    The reality though is that we just don't know what happen. Obama does not know either but, that did not stop him from being empathetic or personally moved because the 17 year old kid was black, like him, and would have looked like his own son if he had one. That is troubling and disgusting IMO.
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    I think he was sympathetic. BECAUSE THE UNARMED KID WAS SHOT TO DEATH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MeteorWayne View Post
    I think he was sympathetic. BECAUSE THE UNARMED KID WAS SHOT TO DEATH.
    How does that work and does that now apply to everyone? A Latin woman claims she was attacked, was having her head banged against the ground, she shoots and kills her attacker, and as long as he is black, she gets dragged through the mud, black racists get to try and paint her as a racist, her attacker gets sold as an innocent saint, and Obama gets to say he is sympathetic towards the attacker because they look like they could be related?
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 1st, 2012 at 02:27 PM.
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    How, in anyway, does that change that the "UNARMED KID WAS SHOT TO DEATH"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How, in anyway, does that change that the "UNARMED KID WAS SHOT TO DEATH"
    An unarmed kid was not shot to death. According to Zimmerman and at least one eyewitness, "an unarmed 17 year old boy who was ATTACKING Zimmerman (a neighborhood watchman) was shot and killed." There is a huge difference between the two. The racist leave that fact out, the president leaves that fact out, and you, along with a few other people here, leave that fact out.. And why? Racism? Hatred? People want to silence Zimmerman, demonize Zimmerman? They want to promote sympathy for the attacker and the attackers family? Why? Why do it? There is no justifiable reason or reasoning for it, period.

    If Zimmerman was attacked by this person, so be it with a knife or with his fists and feet, Zimmerman would be the victim and his attacker would have rightfully been shot and killed by Zimmerman.

    "An unarmed 17 year old boy was shot and killed while attacking a neighborhood watch man." Nothing shocking about that and if true, Zimmerman deserves an award, not to be attacked and threatened by all these racists..... And his alleged attacker, only because he is black, does not call for the president of the United States to declare they look like they could be related. That type of racist sympathy, from the white house, from the president, is disturbing.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 2nd, 2012 at 12:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I agree. I, and I think most Americans and parents took it as an empathic and personally moving observation. Any parent could have thought and said the same thing--he's a man not a machine.
    There are plenty of reports out there that state this 17 year old kid was a drug using, violent thug who was out of control, and who's parents let him get tatted all up at 17 and allowed him to run the streets. There is reports of him assaulting a buss driver, getting busted with a pocket full of woman's jewelry... There are also plenty of reports that state Zimmerman said the 17 year old boy attacked him, hit him then started banging his head against the ground.

    If this is the case, if this happened, I do not personally know anyone who would be empathetic or personally moved by the 17 year old boy or either of his parents. If you attack someone in America, you may very well get shot by that person.

    The reality though is that we just don't know what happen. Obama does not know either but, that did not stop him from being empathetic or personally moved because the 17 year old kid was black, like him, and would have looked like his own son if he had one. That is troubling and disgusting IMO.
    Please provide links to the sources you are getting this information from.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I agree. I, and I think most Americans and parents took it as an empathic and personally moving observation. Any parent could have thought and said the same thing--he's a man not a machine.
    There are plenty of reports out there that state this 17 year old kid was a drug using, violent thug who was out of control, and who's parents let him get tatted all up at 17 and allowed him to run the streets. There is reports of him assaulting a buss driver, getting busted with a pocket full of woman's jewelry... There are also plenty of reports that state Zimmerman said the 17 year old boy attacked him, hit him then started banging his head against the ground.

    If this is the case, if this happened, I do not personally know anyone who would be empathetic or personally moved by the 17 year old boy or either of his parents. If you attack someone in America, you may very well get shot by that person.

    The reality though is that we just don't know what happen. Obama does not know either but, that did not stop him from being empathetic or personally moved because the 17 year old kid was black, like him, and would have looked like his own son if he had one. That is troubling and disgusting IMO.
    Please provide links to the sources you are getting this information from.......
    Here is one article (you can also hear 30 minutes of 911 calls in this article as well). You will be able to use that article to check into it or to find other articles by searching on google. If you need me or want me to post more links, I will.
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    There are an equal amount which dispute the claims made in the article though.

    Also what does it matter if he was or was not those things? What happened on the night in question is the relevant thing. The data is not presenting any sort of clear picture of what happened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How, in anyway, does that change that the "UNARMED KID WAS SHOT TO DEATH"
    An unarmed kid was not shot to death.
    He was unarmed...he had an ice tea and a bag of skittles. That it objective fact by any normal definition---no matter how badly you want to drag other things into the argument.

    --

    And for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would find a president showing some empathy for a dead kid as troubling and disgusting. We don't want heartless bastards to as leaders--or at least I don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    He was unarmed...he had an ice tea and a bag of skittles. That it objective fact by any normal definition---no matter how badly you want to drag other things into the argument.

    --

    And for the life of me I can't understand why anyone would find a president showing some empathy for a dead kid as troubling and disgusting. We don't want heartless bastards to as leaders--or at least I don't.
    You Wrote:
    "He was unarmed...he had an ice tea and a bag of skittles." And? What does that have to do with anything anyways? Those are not "facts", they are meaningless.

    Reality is:
    "He had two legs, two arms and two fist that he was using to brutally beat a person with, and the person he was brutally beating, shot him." It does not matter if he had a pack of gum in his pocket, a comb, two dimes or a bag of skittles.

    The president also had no business injecting his own racial feelings and bias by declaring, because they are both black, that they look like they could be related. That was disgusting.

    Just because the 17 year old attacker in this case was black, and his victim ended the brutal beating he was receiving by shooting his attacker, it does not make it right to have empathy for the attacker and it surely never makes it right for a president to do what Obama did.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 2nd, 2012 at 07:43 AM.
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    Amazing how far people will stretch their definitions to support their bias. Unless he had a black belt or some other combat training the kid was considered unarmed in the eyes of the law, and in the common definition of most people--that's a fact.
    --

    As for the particulars of the incident we don't know who attacked who. Did the kid turn and fight in a very normal fight or flight response to a larger armed (yes he had a gun) and hostile man--a situation most of us might have done the same case--or was Zimmerman in retreat when the scuffle happened. Those are the sorts of things a jury should figure out. We also know it was NOT a brutal beating--the Z-man didn't even go to the hospital as best we can tell.

    Every dead kids parents deserve empathy--regardless of the circumstances. What disturbing is anyone who finds showing such empathy disgusting--but you're entitled to your opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzalez
    If Zimmerman was attacked by this person, so be it with a knife or with his fists and feet, Zimmerman would be the victim and his attacker would have rightfully been shot and killed by Zimmerman.
    Just about the only thing we know for sure about the confrontation was that Zimmerman started it - followed the kid in his truck, got out and chased the kid down, confronted the kid on the public sidewalk. All versions and evidence agree on that.

    That makes him guilty of misdemeanor assault, in my State. In the dark like that, a bigger guy with an attitude, it's a direct threat anywhere. If the kid had been armed, he would have been justified in shooting Zimmerman on the spot under Florida law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzalez
    If Zimmerman was attacked by this person, so be it with a knife or with his fists and feet, Zimmerman would be the victim and his attacker would have rightfully been shot and killed by Zimmerman.
    Just about the only thing we know for sure about the confrontation was that Zimmerman started it - followed the kid in his truck, got out and chased the kid down, confronted the kid on the public sidewalk. All versions and evidence agree on that.

    That makes him guilty of misdemeanor assault, in my State. In the dark like that, a bigger guy with an attitude, it's a direct threat anywhere. If the kid had been armed, he would have been justified in shooting Zimmerman on the spot under Florida law.
    It was not a public street, and even if it was, people are allowed to come up to someone and try to talk to them. Wasn't the 17 year old boy also like 6'3" (not that it matters)?

    No one knows what happened. We will have to wait for the facts (real facts) to come out.

    I also heard about a case (which happened on March 4, 2012) where a group of black teens allegedly chased a 13 year old white kid all the way to his front door, and while the little boy was frantically trying to open his door and his mom was trying to let him in, this group of blacks poured gas all over this 13 year old kid, lit him on fire and then started saying, "that's what you get white boy" as the 13 year old boy was engulfed in flames and his mother was in horror at what she just saw and was seeing.

    One would think that Obama's empathy and humanity would come out and move him to speak up for this poor boy and for his mother and family but, clearly, it doesn't. A group of racists chasing down and drenching a 13 year old boy with gasoline and then lighting him on fire in front of his own home and mother is perhaps one of the worst crimes committed by racists since James Bird suffered so horribly, and Obama and his so called empathy and heart is nowhere to be seen or heard.
    Last edited by gonzales56; April 3rd, 2012 at 01:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Reality is:
    "He had two legs, two arms and two fist that he was using to brutally beat a person with, and the person he was brutally beating, shot him." It does not matter if he had a pack of gum in his pocket, a comb, two dimes or a bag of skittles.

    The president also had no business injecting his own racial feelings and bias by declaring, because they are both black, that they look like they could be related. That was disgusting.

    Just because the 17 year old attacker in this case was black, and his victim ended the brutal beating he was receiving by shooting his attacker, it does not make it right to have empathy for the attacker and it surely never makes it right for a president to do what Obama did.
    What were racial feelings that he declared?" What were the exact comment's which lead to your opinion of racial bias feelings?

    From what I've read in the Boston Globe and Miami Herald :
    "I can only imagine what these parents are going through, and when I think about this boy, I think about my own kids....“every parent in America should be able to understand why it is absolutely imperative that we investigate every aspect of this and everybody pulls together, federal state and local, to figure out exactly how this tragedy happened.
    “My main message is to the parents of Trayvon Martin,” he added. “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon. I think they are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves and we’re going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened.” “I think all of us have to do some soul searching to figure out how does something like this happen”

    Additionally, Republican candidates commented when asked on the issue.
    Rick Santorum - "horrible case...Stand your ground is not doing what this man did."

    Mitt Romney - ""terrible tragedy, unnecessary, uncalled for, and inexplicable at this point...entirely appropriate for the district attorney to be looking into this and to have called a grand jury and to find out what the facts are. We hope that justice is done in this case....“What happened to Trayvon Martin is a tragedy,” Romney said “There needs to be a thorough investigation that reassures the public that justice is carried out with impartiality and integrity.”
    Newt Gingrich - "There's a point in there where there ought to be some kind of signal that's pretty clear that this is a guy who'd found a hobby that's very dangerous," Gingrich said of Zimmerman.
    Last edited by MrMojo1; April 3rd, 2012 at 01:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    It was not a public street, and even if it was, people are allowed to come up to someone and try to talk to them. Wasn't the 17 year old boy also like 6'3" (not that it matters)?
    He was 6'2 and 140LBs. Not seeing the body myself, I would imagine a tall skinny kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    No one knows what happened. We will have to wait for the facts (real facts) to come out.
    Based on his 911 record call, we know that the body wasn't found next to Zimmerman's vehicle where he initially called 911. We know that he associated Martin with a past history of break-ins without evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    I also heard about a case (which happened on March 4, 2012) where a group of black teens allegedly chased a 13 year old white kid all the way to his front door, and while the little boy was frantically trying to open his door and his mom was trying to let him in, this group of blacks poured gas all over this 13 year old kid, lit him on fire and then started saying, "that's what you get white boy" as the 13 year old boy was engulfed in flames and his mother was in horror at what she just saw and was seeing.

    One would think that Obama's empathy and humanity would come out and move him to speak up for this poor boy and for his mother and family but, clearly, it doesn't. A group of racists chasing down and drenching a 13 year old boy with gasoline and then lighting him on fire in front of his own home and mother is perhaps one of the worst crimes committed by racists since James Bird suffered so horribly, and Obama and his so called empathy and heart is nowhere to be seen or heard.
    Was the President or any political candidate specifically asked about that investigation? Has an politician been asked, and responded to questions relating to this case?
    It would seem one would think any politician's empathy any humanity would move them to comment on the issue if asked.
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    Correction to claimed height and weight Boston Herlad
    "A Sanford police incident report says Trayvon was 6 feet tall and weighed 160 pounds. A spokesman for the family’s lawyers gave a slightly different set of numbers: 6 feet 1 and 150 pounds. Zimmerman is 5 feet 9 inches tall, according to the police report, but it is silent about his weight. A family member says he currently weighs about 190 pounds. Zimmerman used to be far heavier. A 2005 police report put his weight at 250 pounds, but security camera video released last week by Sanford police show him to be much trimmer."
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    A 2005 police report put his weight at 250 pounds, but security camera video released last week by Sanford police show him to be much trimmer."
    The police video released to the press was adjusted for TV broadcast from a compressed feed off a wide angle lens security camera, and is distorted: the people in it look much thinner relative to their height than they are.

    Whether that image manuipulation - which could have been done differently, yielding more accurate images - was deliberate or not, is by now a legitimate question. Every odd feature of the police behavior in this incident has favored Zimmerman, so far.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post
    Every odd feature of the police behavior in this incident has favored Zimmerman, so far.
    It is either the luckiest string of luck, or gross incompetence. I was reviewing the 911 call time line and the video time line.

    One of the 911 calls recorded the gunshot at 7:16.
    Paramedics arrive and attempt to resuscitate Trayvon before declaring him dead at 7:30.
    The police take Zimmerman to the police station at 7:37, a 15 minute drive, arriving at the time stamp on the video of 7:52.

    So 7 minutes to completely treat Zimmerman then handcuffed with the police. In 7 minutes they're able to examine Zimmerman's wounds, clean them up without even applying a single bandage and then send him along with the police where after roughly 36 minutes the gashes in the back of his head had completely clotted to the point that you need digital improvements of the video of him to even see they're there.

    There has been reports from his father and police, that he incurred a broken nose and lacerations to the back of his head from having it slammed on the concrete sidewalk.

    So the big question is: Why wasn't Zimmerman taken to a hospital for an examination by a qualified doctor? The potential injuries he could have are fractured nose, upper vertebrate injury from having his head slammed violently against concrete, brain damage (e.g. concussion), and finally a fractured skull. There was no one at the scene who could have given a professional examination to rule out these injuries. A simple X-ray, MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging), and a battery of cognitive tests to see if he had symptoms of a concussion.

    I would have expected the Paramedics to fasten him to a board once they immobilized his neck with a C-collar and immediately transport him to a emergency room under police supervision.

    The doctor's professional opinion and image evidence from X-ray\MRI would define the extent of the injures of Zimmerman. It could have been used to support his claim of self-defense. Zimmerman visited a doctor the next day, then re-visited the scene to walk police through the events of the previous day.

    Kiss chain of custody evidence goodbye.
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  32. #31  
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    So Trayvon was slamming George's head into the pavement, but you don't think he was slamming it hard enough to provoke George into defending himself, right? Then there is the possibility that Trayvon was going after George's gun.

    Maybe we should leave that up to the criminal justice system to figure out, instead of conducting a trial by news reports.
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  33. #32  
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    Wrong.
    I never said that Trayvon didn't slam George's head hard enough to provoke George into defending himself. I agree that there is a possibility that Trayvon was going after George's run. There is a greater possibility if George didn't bring his gun to his Neighborhood Watch shift and stayed in his vehicle, Trayvon wouldn't have hole in his chest from a 9mm Kal Tech pistol. There is also a possibility that Trayvon was being stalked by a stranger and his attempts to run away were unsuccessful, thus he chose to stand his ground.

    I am also aware that most Neighborhood Watch programs emphasize the watching part and then reporting. They do not encourage carrying of weapons or vigilantism. It is for this particular protocol why many communities initially did not approve of the Guardian Angels Program. The Guardian Angels do not carry any weapons, they report crimes to police, and if necessary detain criminals for the police (Guardian Angels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

    Actually, if it wasn't for people criticizing the available facts about this case there wouldn't be further investigation by the State of Florida and Federal agencies. Without a proper investigation, there is no data to go to trial with. I agree that there is a media circus, threats, and claims of racial bias regarding many aspects of this situation that are unnecessary. This doesn't mean that available data can't be skeptically evaluated, compared rationally, and draw reasonable conclusions pending new information. The American entertainment industry has many popular programs which evaluate fictitious and actual crimes, how police investigate and collect evidence, and finally the prosecution of charges.
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    On what basis do you claim that there was not a proper investigation? I say it is just because of the media circus and nothing else.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    On what basis do you claim that there was not a proper investigation? I say it is just because of the media circus and nothing else.
    See post #30 where there is no transport to a hospital to have a qualified professional evaluate the severity of George's head injuries. The opportunity to collect evidence was lost.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    On what basis do you claim that there was not a proper investigation? I say it is just because of the media circus and nothing else.
    As I understand it, the investigation and arrest was waved off by the prosecutor; there would likely have been no investigation at all if not for the media storm. Now I'll state up front, I don't know that for a fact, and I suspect you don't know it's not true for a fact either. Am I right?
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    The police showed up, took George downtown, and questioned him. The 911 tapes were reviewed. The prosecutor looked at the case and decided not to prosecute. Now, maybe it is standard operating procedure for every shooting to call in the Feds, activate the CSI Miami type investigation squad, etc. I don't know. Maybe somebody familiar with police procedures can weigh in.
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  38. #37  
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    I think it's pretty clear though that the police department really screwed this up. Given the short time line, the guy was released before even the most basic of evidence collection and review-- phone calls were not reviewed, his sister was not interviewed, drug testing results were not in, if done at all, the clothing was not collected for evidence that would collaborate the shooter's story such as finger prints and grass stains on the jacket, dirt on the shoes to verify the return to the car, thorough and complete canvasing of every person within a km or so who might have seen or heard anything etc--heck not even the weapon was collected. It very much appears like the department just took the shooters word for it and didn't go much further to conduct an independent investigation than they would have for a kid breaking a window. This is probably why the lead homicide detective recommended charging man slaughter--that would have been enough to collect the evidence, perhaps detain the shooter for a day or so, until there was a more complete and independent picture of what really happened--at that point they could have released him with no harm done. Barney Fife could have done a better job. And now because much of the physical evidence wasn't preserved, it might not even be admissible, even if this does go to court.
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  39. #38  
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    @Harold14370
    I'm not police officer either, but you are being hyperbolic.
    Let's look at this reasonably.

    You arrive at a scene where at first observation there are two victims.

    Victim A is pronounced dead on site and there appears to be a gun shot wound in his chest. You don't know the actual cause of death or circumstance. A professional who could determine cause of death is a Coroner. A logical decision is to transport the deceased so that such a professional can begin their specialized investigation.

    Victim B is alive and has wounds on his body, mostly his head. He claims he shot victim A in self-defense, and relinquishes a weapon. He explains that he was severely beaten where his head met with the concrete sidewalk with substantial force by Victim A. You are not sure if this B is a victim or an assailant at this point. What is certain is that he is injured. The extent of the head, neck, and brain trauma is unknown. A logical deduction would be that this B is no longer able to harm anyone else, but could be in danger from internal injuries. He must be transported to a location where qualified professionals can evaluate him, treat him, and then medically clear him. You would still detain him as he was being treated. Then bring him to the police station for further investigation.

    Once you have collected professional opinions and other data, evaluate the evidence and make a determination of probable cause for arrest(Probable cause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

    By not going to the hospital, B was at risk for further injuries and the police could have been held partly responsible.
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    Is it normal to arrest anyone who may be a suspect in a crime, or do you wait until you have collected sufficient evidence? Are charges filed any time the lead investigator recommends filing charges, or is the lead investigator sometimes overruled by the prosecutor? Do we know all the facts the police have collected, or perhaps is some of that not released to the general public?
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Is it normal to arrest anyone who may be a suspect in a crime, or do you wait until you have collected sufficient evidence?
    You can make an arrest based on probable cause. The link to the Wiki of my previous post, gives a decent explanation of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Are charges filed any time the lead investigator recommends filing charges, or is the lead investigator sometimes overruled by the prosecutor?
    The charges that is best supported by evidence is what the persecutor usually determines what to be file in court. If there is enough evidence for a criminal conviction, then the prosecutor usually proceeds to trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Do we know all the facts the police have collected, or perhaps is some of that not released to the general public?
    Unknown. There seems to be at least 2 investigations on going now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by harold
    Is it normal to arrest anyone who may be a suspect in a crime, or do you wait until you have collected sufficient evidence?
    It is normal to postpone a serious charge such as murder until sufficient evidence has been collected.

    It is also normal to collect said evidence, beginning immediately after discovery of a shooting victim.

    It is even normal to hold the suspect for a while, even arrest them on related minor charges, to facilitate that collection of evidence.

    It is not normal, at least in my town, to simply accept the version of events proffered by the assailant in a lethal shooting, without collecting and considering any evidence available. That is true even if there is no prior indication whatsoever that the assailant might have been at fault - in this case, the police had very strong evidence that the confrontation was initiated and exacerbated by the eventual shooter, which in itself was reason to check that shooter's story out very carefully.
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    @Harold14370
    I'm not police officer either, but you are being hyperbolic.
    Let's look at this reasonably.

    You arrive at a scene where at first observation there are two victims.


    Victim B is alive and has wounds on his body, mostly his head. He claims he shot victim A in self-defense, and relinquishes a weapon..
    But this is not what heppened. He left with his weapon at the end of the day, apparently.
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