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Thread: The ME-262 - The first jet fighter. Could an earlier variant have changed the Allied strategic air war on Germany, and possibly the war?

  1. #1 The ME-262 - The first jet fighter. Could an earlier variant have changed the Allied strategic air war on Germany, and possibly the war? 
    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    Strategic Allied bombing of Germany during WWII was ineffective in many raids. Yet they still inflicted substantial reductions of industrial output, and other critical aspects of the German war effort. It is estimated that it reduced overall potential output by as much as 35% by the end of the war, despite some critics suggesting it played very little role. The raids also disrupted transport, a vital aspect in moving supplies and shifting troops to other fronts quickly. They also specifically targeted petroleum production as much as practicable, which greatly hindered the German war effort in the last year or so of the war. The fact is, the Germans would have had much less trouble, in all aspects, of prosecuting the war against the Russians if the raids had been suspended by the Allies. So the raids certainly suppressed a substantial amount German capabilities, at least by 1942 and after.

    Moreover, the Allied bombing also caused the Germans to retain many army and air forces in men, aircraft, antiaircraft batteries and support staff. These were critical assets that would have been much better served destroying Red Army concentrations on the eastern front rather than blasting away at Lancasters, B-17s, and B-24s, etc. Stalin complained about another front, but the British and Americans were already at it in the air. And paid a heavy price, with combined losses of airmen over 150,000 KIA. The Allied air crews were the bravest men of that war. The risks were enormous against German fighters and flak guns.

    However, the Germans had the potential to make jet fighters years earlier. Realistic estimates suggest they could have been flying many such fighters as early as 1942, with speeds much faster than the finest of the time - one being the Supermarine Spitifire. (It should be noted that the Spitfire is the only fighter to be made before, during and after WWII, a testament to is superior design.) The decision not to build jet fighters was of course Adolf's. He never trusted advanced technology, and initially insisted that the V-2 rockets were nothing more than glorified artillery, which is true, for standard explosives. But he finally went with the V-2 since he thought it might be the super weapon they needed, and allowed for small numbers of ME-262s to become operational. Of course it was all too little, too late.

    The big "What if" :

    Could the Germans have built an air fleet of jet fighters to eliminate the Allied bombing raids earlier in the war? Perhaps someone can provide an idea of the real capability of such German aircraft technology having a major impact on the Allied air war, and even shifting the advantage to the Axis.


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    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    The ME-262 - The first jet fighter
    No.
    Realistic estimates suggest they could have been flying many such fighters as early as 1942
    Really?
    It should be noted that the Spitfire is the only fighter to be made before, during and after WWII
    No.
    The decision not to build jet fighters was of course Adolf's.
    No.
    Could the Germans have built an air fleet of jet fighters to eliminate the Allied bombing raids earlier in the war?
    No.
    They had massive problems with the engines (the root cause of the long delay).
    Perhaps someone can provide an idea of the real capability of such German aircraft technology having a major impact on the Allied air war, and even shifting the advantage to the Axis.
    If the Germans had managed to get the Me 262 (not ME-262) into service that would have accelerated the Allies' efforts: Meteor, Spider Crab (Vampire) and maybe even put the E28/39 into service as a stopgap.


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    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;631375]
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Realistic estimates suggest they could have been flying many such fighters as early as 1942
    Really?

    [quote]

    Really!

    History tells us that Heinkel was working on jet engines as early as 1939, and had a flying prototype with twin engines by 1940. This was the He 280 (1), a twin engine jet fighter somewhat similar to the Me 262. It is believed by many the entire German jet aircraft project was vastly underfunded, considering its enormous potential, due to lack of interest by commanders in the Reich Aviation Ministry, who of course answered to only one man. So Adolf delayed these planes? Certainly yes, (sorry).

    Lack of development efforts slow big projects like this, big time. The call for funding is made at the top, (That is another yes, clearly by default.)

    Despite the lack of funding by a very disinterested command, Heinkel persisted in the development of the He 280, and field tested it against one of their best prop fighters, the Fw 190, in 1943. It outperformed the 190, and only at this time caught the attention of the Reich Aviation Ministry - and Adolf (finally, 4 years later). This amounts to repetitive yes.

    They should have been paying attention years early. Greater funding would have provided much faster development, likely fielding a vastly superior fighter plane over anything the Allies had by 1942. Another yes (sorry).

    Problems with engine design were due to poor funding (Adolf's call), not lack of ability. (Yes, etc.)

    So, many Yes, not so many, if any, No (upon an accurate review).


    1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_280
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    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Really!
    History tells us that Heinkel was working on jet engines as early as 1939, and had a flying prototype with twin engines by 1940. This was the He 280 (1), a twin engine jet fighter somewhat similar to the Me 262.
    So your "Realistic estimates " means "your opinion". Just because they managed to get one flying doesn't mean that it was feasible to enter large-scale production.
    It is believed by many the entire German jet aircraft project was vastly underfunded, considering its enormous potential, due to lack of interest by commanders in the Reich Aviation Ministry, who of course answered to only one man. So Adolf delayed these planes? Certainly yes, (sorry).
    Nope. The idea of jet fighters was dismissed by the RLM, Goering, Udet, Milch.... It wasn't merely a whim of Hitler's, nor a sole diktat. (By your logic EVERYTHING that happened in Germany was Hitler's fault - hardly rational).
    Problems with engine design were due to poor funding (Adolf's call), not lack of ability. (Yes, etc.)
    Also wrong.
    I note you haven't bothered to address your other errors.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    I noticed you haven't bothered to address the real issue - historical facts. Apparently grammar and punctuation play a major role in your intellectual discussion of a subject. Always The Great Dodge and Diversion Scheme. If you suspect technical errors of significance, state them, don't provide nebulous reference to "errors".

    It is clear that avoiding the history presented in my last post was essential to furthering your narrative. The absence of significant state funding for the development of jet fighters was pivotal to their late development. Such huge projects are rarely even developed by industries risking their own assets.

    Clearly Hitler was not responsible for all blunders, but when it came to advanced weapons, he was on top of all of them, down the very nuts and bolts which held them together. There is NO doubt he played a major role in denying development funding of such an essential weapon. No one else made such monumental decisions about weapons. No one but Adolf.

    To be sure, Hitler, when cornered by some of his Generals about a serious problem (usually of his own making), would launch into long-winded commentary about the specifications of a Tiger Tank, for example, and knew every last detail. He used such tactics as a tool to brow-beat his commanders into submission, and usually they bowed to his wishes, however wrong they may have been.

    Can't say I am sorry anymore about your mistakes, so vastly more significant than grammatical errors.

    It is suspected you teach writing skills, and dabble in war history.

    Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the issue will help out in this discussion.
    Last edited by Double Helix; February 7th, 2021 at 04:21 PM.
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    Genius Duck Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    No one else made such monumental decisions about weapons. No one but Adolf.
    Your opinion, not that of serious historians.
    Can't say I am sorry anymore about your mistakes
    Nor your own, apparently.
    It is suspected you teach writing skills, and dabble in war history.
    You'd be wrong.
    Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the issue will help out in this discussion.
    But only if they agree with you erroneous viewpoint, eh?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Time Lord Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    No one else made such monumental decisions about weapons. No one but Adolf.
    Your opinion, not that of serious historians.
    Can't say I am sorry anymore about your mistakes
    Nor your own, apparently.
    It is suspected you teach writing skills, and dabble in war history.
    You'd be wrong.
    Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the issue will help out in this discussion.
    But only if they agree with you erroneous viewpoint, eh?
    This seems to be the general posting style across all DHs threads. Ignoring the data presented and denigrating any that disagree
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    Forum Junior Double Helix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    No one else made such monumental decisions about weapons. No one but Adolf.
    Your opinion, not that of serious historians.
    Can't say I am sorry anymore about your mistakes
    Nor your own, apparently.
    It is suspected you teach writing skills, and dabble in war history.
    You'd be wrong.
    Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the issue will help out in this discussion.
    But only if they agree with you erroneous viewpoint, eh?

    Another brilliant reply, loaded with nonsensical commentary and the absence of substance.

    At least you are consistent.
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