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Thread: plane shot down by mistake ?

  1. #1 plane shot down by mistake ? 
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    I am sure everyone knows about the plane that was shot down over Russia/Ukraine.Surely the technology they have would have identified it was a passenger plane ?


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    I don't know the technical capabilities of the Russian rocket launcher so I can't say for sure that it could. Another thing is that it takes over 20 weeks of training to use that launcher and if those using it didn't have the proper training they might not have known what the aircraft was when they fired at it. I don't think Russia would have given those launchers to uninformed soldiers but were using skilled Russian soldiers and if that is so then they could have known what the aircraft was. Again I'm not privy to how that launcher works.


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    I would argue that 'they' ( whoever triggered the launch ) Only knew it was a airplane.. assumptions were made.. they got it wrong..
    Very pleased to hear the UN is calling for justice.. Those responsible will be accountable.. we hope..
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    Quote Originally Posted by tandoorchicken View Post
    I am sure everyone knows about the plane that was shot down over Russia/Ukraine.Surely the technology they have would have identified it was a passenger plane ?
    It's a radar blip.

    And their intent might have very well been to shoot down a passenger plane, but a Ukrainian one--really no way to tell the difference unless you get visual confirmation (not always possible) or rather exacting flight information.

    I think the Western (US) propaganda machine is also in full swing here about the training. If it was an SA-11, it's rather old tech and pretty simple to use--the basics can be covered in a few days. Also retired officers and sergeants that could use or train the basics of these systems are pretty easy to find in the Ukraine (and every other old USSR). Even the actual piece of equipment isn't necessarily from recent Russian support-- there's lot of old Soviet hardware around...left over, sometimes sold by high ranking officers, or given to old allies etc.
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    Its not like the United States hasn't done the same thing, with more sophisticated hardware and a trained professional crew.

    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    Its not like the United States hasn't done the same thing, with more sophisticated hardware and a trained professional crew.

    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    That plane was heading directly for a navel carrier if I recall. It was not sending a transponder signal either which is very suspicious especially when the plane was also off course. Adding those three things up there was little time to see where the plane was heading because it wasn't very far from the navel carrier.

    Now this Russian missile was nor being targeted by the plane and the plane was heading away from the missile launcher not towards it as well. The plane had its transponder on and was on its known flightpath if anyone would have bothered to find out. So this aircraft that was shot down this time by the Russians wasn't doing anything to make anyone believe that it was.
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    There is a huge amount of disinformation flying around this.
    So far s I can tell nobody even knows who actually shot it down, or if it was just another example of Malaysian Airways incompetence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    So far s I can tell nobody even knows who actually shot it down, or if it was just another example of Malaysian Airways incompetence.
    Given that the wreckage is scattered over miles, there is evidence of a firecontrol radar going live just before it crashed, and a missile launch plume seen shortly thereafter - and given that several phone intercepts reveal people talking about the shootdown - it's probably not "incompetence."
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  10. #9  
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    and nobody in politics or the military ever lies.
    just ask them if you don't believe me.
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    At least some are trying to get the word out about the training required (and hidden implication that it had to be Russia doing it) being overestimated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    and nobody in politics or the military ever lies.
    They lie a lot, all the time. Which is why you wouldn't expect the story to be quite so consistent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    and nobody in politics or the military ever lies.
    They lie a lot, all the time. Which is why you wouldn't expect the story to be quite so consistent.
    Missing the "Like" button.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    Its not like the United States hasn't done the same thing, with more sophisticated hardware and a trained professional crew.

    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    That plane was heading directly for a navel carrier if I recall. It was not sending a transponder signal either which is very suspicious especially when the plane was also off course. Adding those three things up there was little time to see where the plane was heading because it wasn't very far from the navel carrier.

    Now this Russian missile was nor being targeted by the plane and the plane was heading away from the missile launcher not towards it as well. The plane had its transponder on and was on its known flightpath if anyone would have bothered to find out. So this aircraft that was shot down this time by the Russians wasn't doing anything to make anyone believe that it was.
    Vincennes was operating in the Persian gulf, near the Straight of Hormuz. The U.S. navy does not operate carriers in this area, the waters are too tightly confined for a carrier to be able to steam freely into the wind for flight operations. The only nearby U.S. naval vessel was the frigate Sides. The Vincennes own recording equipment shows the aircraft was transmitting IFF mode III, clearly identifying it as civilian.

    There is no credible evidence shooting down the Iranian airbus was a deliberate act. Vincennes was involved in active combat operations at the time with Iranian patrol boats, and testimony consistently shows the crew mistook the airliner for an attacking F-14. The investigation shows the crew made several critical errors leading to misidentifying the aircraft.

    If a trained crew of the U.S. navy operating the most sophisticated anti-air platform in the world of its time, an Aegis cruiser, could make such an error I don't find it particularly hard to believe that half trained militia operating unfamiliar equipment could do the same.

    Another link, perhaps a bit more authoritative than the wikipedia article I linked above:

    Naval Science 302: Lesson 20
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  15. #14  
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    Actually, since the event happened in 1988, the technology available to the crew of the Vicennes at the time was probably either on par, or more primitive than the tech available to Russia's military today.

    Information technology has come a long way in the last 26 years. The cell phone in your pocket probably has more processing power than all the electronics on the Vicennes in 1988.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Actually, since the event happened in 1988, the technology available to the crew of the Vicennes at the time was probably either on par, or more primitive than the tech available to Russia's military today.
    On par or less than is most likely. The SA-11 was developed in the 70s and like most Soviet equipment was at least a generation behind NATO/US technology of the time.

    Figuring out what missile shot down the airliner would sort a lot of this stuff out.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    and nobody in politics or the military ever lies.
    just ask them if you don't believe me.
    Call me a pessimist and a cynic, I don't care, but that sums up my feelings about both groups. And it doesn't matter which country.
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    WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

    The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

    The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.

    The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts.


    US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing


    So if the rocket launcher was supplied to the Ukrainian Russians and they were taught by Russia to use the Russian missile launcher can anyone tell me how Russia isn't directly to blame?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    Its not like the United States hasn't done the same thing, with more sophisticated hardware and a trained professional crew.

    Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    (I posted the following in the other thread. BTW, why are there two threads on the very same subject ??)

    I sincerely hope that in 1988 the US didn't shoot down the Iranian airliner intentionally, as the Iranians said. I would prefer to believe that it was a fatal, horrible accident.

    Bottom line is the US Navy shot down a civilian airliner, killing 290 people. My original point still stands: The US government and US media can demonize whoever is at fault for this horrible deed in the Ukraine, as long as the US government remembers its own foul deed
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Bottom line is the US Navy shot down a civilian airliner, killing 290 people. My original point still stands: The US government and US media can demonize whoever is at fault for this horrible deed in the Ukraine, as long as the US government remembers its own foul deed

    Except for the circumstances were totally different as I have stated in another post here. The Navel ship was watching that aircraft and that aircraft was heading directly at the navel ship and the plane did not have its transponder turned on and wasn't on a route it was supposed to be on. I'd say since the Iranian government was already at odds with America that the plane MIGHT have been on a self destruct course since it could not be spoken to because it had its radio turned off so no one could reach them. Strange isn't it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    I'd say since the Iranian government was already at odds with America that the plane MIGHT have been on a self destruct course since it could not be spoken to because it had its radio turned off so no one could reach them. Strange isn't it?
    Pure BS conjecture really. The Iranian airliner MIGHT have been piloted by aliens too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Except for the circumstances were totally different as I have stated in another post here. The Navel ship was watching that aircraft and that aircraft was heading directly at the navel ship and the plane did not have its transponder turned on
    It did have its transponder turned on.
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    Either it was a mistake, or the people who shot it down are total savages/apes...

    Sorry, but which military officer cannot distinguish between a military and civilian transponder?

    I think it was deliberate.
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    " Oh Look a contrail.. Might it be a military transport.. It could be that..Fire the missile.."
    and they attained radar lock and fired it..
    ~ about a hour later were informed of the downed M H 17.. and we know the rest... Oops.
    So filled with hatred for the enemy are these people little regard for confirmation of target was taken..
    A scape goat will be found and he will not be a goat.. a very unfortunate and foolish act has resulted in a pointless loss of 295 lives.. People just like you and I.. You can and should be concerned..
    You can count on people to get it wrong if they can.. As they did..
    Last edited by astromark; July 25th, 2014 at 12:34 AM.
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