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Thread: Defensive Tactics: moving vs cover?

  1. #1 Defensive Tactics: moving vs cover? 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    With a rifle vs a soldier, or a cannon vs a tank...Is it harder to hit a target thats partially behind cover (but not moving) or thats moving in the open? (or are these roughly equivalent?)


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    In show like "Top Shot" the contestant are fine at shooting moving target... So I guess you must hide, else you'll get shoot.


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    Forum Masters Degree MrMojo1's Avatar
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    If you can't see it, you can't shoot it.
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    It is always harder to hid a moving target, this is because it is possible to exactly zero in a stationary target even partially behind cover, all a moving target has to do is move quicker than the targeting of the weapon and move in a manner that is unpredictable enough to stop the shooter anticipating where the target will be moving to.
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    From a well supported position, even non-expert Soldiers can fire rifle shot groups within a foot or so at several hundred meters. Moving targets are generally more difficult to hit.
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    I suppose it all depends on how well concealed one is by the cover, how fast one is moving in the open, whether one is moving in a straight path or not, how long one is exposed, etc. It would also depend on the marksman. Some people are better at holding a steady aim, some better at leading a moving target.
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    I imagine it would also depend on the accuracy and volume of the return fire.
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    Are we talking Laser Guidance Systems here? Lock on Tank Turret Gun Technology. Tank battle at Thursk? westwind.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Scenario 1 (Beverly Hills Cop-ish): Two police cars arrive at a bank robbery and an imminent shoot out, Police Officer A takes cover behind the car(with head shoulder and arm exposed to fire back) but isnt moving, Police Officer B decides to be harder to hit by moving and runs in circles around the cruiser.

    Scenario 2: Modern tank A positioned hull down behind a hill crest versus tank B that's cruising in the open, being shot by other modern tanks.

    Scenario 3 (Saving Private Ryan-ish): Soldier A is shooting from a trench with Sandbags, Soldier B is running across the battlefield.
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    sceranio 2: US Mainbattle tenk fires DU sabot round into hull down tank by shooting the berm--penetrating both berm and enemy tank.

    As with most modern weaponry concealment is just as important as cover...once a target is IDed, it's pretty much dead on the first shot anyhow.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    so with concealment the covered tank could potentially fire first if it spots the non-covered tanks moving in the open (presumably easier to spot), is the moving tank as easy to hit for the positioned tank as the opposite?

    ...and if I understand correctly, Battletech where you have robots running around each other and pepper shooting each other, hitting and missing, missing and hitting, taking hits after hit, is quite, ah, different, from current tank warfare, where tanks seldom miss and he who fires first demolishes the other...
    hum...
    What about range, do the chances to hit fall gradually as range increases or is it more (for tanks with targeting systems) a 'either in range or out of range' thing?

    Would it be better for a tank (or a MECH in a sci-fi adventure setting) in a defensive situation to take total cover and use a periscope (or concealed observer with a camera with a wire to the tank to feed incoming enemy info and targeting data) and then when an enemy position is IDed just pop out to fire and back track to the total cover after the shot?
    Last edited by icewendigo; May 18th, 2012 at 07:39 PM.
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    so with concealment the covered tank could potentially fire first if it spots the non-covered tanks moving in the open (presumably easier to spot), is the moving tank as easy to hit for the positioned tank as the opposite?
    Some things are easier for a moving firer...such as knowing its own velocity. Some things are far worse because even the best stabilization system isn't going to completely compensate for motion as well as finding a target is more difficult.

    ...and if I understand correctly, Battletech where you have robots running around each other and pepper shooting each other, hitting and missing, missing and hitting, taking hits after hit, is quite, ah, different, from current tank warfare, where tanks seldom miss and he who fires first demolishes the other...
    hum...
    Battletech accuracy is rediculously low--something akin to pre-WWII level. Ironically even the low level of simulation from its series of vid games added enough realism so all versions needed to beaf up armor and make other changes because even the worst player was more accurate than the best trained clansmen by CBT board game standards.

    What about range, do the chances to hit fall gradually as range increases or is it more (for tanks with targeting systems) a 'either in range or out of range' thing?
    Of course. Shot groupings increase considerably with range.

    Would it be better for a tank (or a MECH in a sci-fi adventure setting) in a defensive situation to take total cover and use a periscope (or concealed observer with a camera with a wire to the tank to feed incoming enemy info and targeting data) and then when an enemy position is IDed just pop out to fire and back track to the total cover after the shot?
    In short yes. This is one reason why some attack helo, with their sensor (MMS and others) above the rotter blades...they can essentially hide below range acquire their target pop up and fire.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "shot groupings increase considerably with range" of couse shot groupings, thats the key, ahh, whats a shot groupings?


    (btech: a one shot kill doesnt make much of a swashbuckling adventureish game, but finding interesting scifi reasons why the battle last long enough isnt easy, i guess they could have had sci-fi deflector shields or something)
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    pvt., "but sarge, I can't shoot women and children!"
    sgt., "Sure you can, just don't lead 'em as much"
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    In simple terms it's an average diameter of 3-5 shots. Well supported combat rifle for example are capable of 2" groups at 100 meters--which would be mostly the mechanical variation the rifle, consistency of the power load and round etc. Add the soldier's trigger pull, breathing, heart beat and the distraction from the fly licking salt off their ear lobe and few can do this...but some come close--most well trained within six inches. At 300 meters that translates into about 18 inches plus a bit for wind effect but still good enough to take down even a mostly covered man. (or scare the crap out of them!).
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  17. #16  
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    kinda depends on the rifle and the soldier--- in any given batallion you may find up to 6 guys who just don't miss
    the m14 was dead accurate at 400 meters
    some other 30 caliber (7.62mm) rifles can deliver a round accurately up to about 1000 meters, and some 50s extend that range by about 50%
    partially hidden? depends on what part the dumb bast--d left exposed

    deep breaths, till you slow your heartrate and calm your muscles (the excitement of seeing the target tends to react in your body as though you would have to engage him in hand to hand)
    then watch for an opportune moment, hold your breath and squeeze through the resistance of the spring's pressure on the trigger mechanism till it releases the bolt--then breathe--while keeping your eye on the target and chambering the next round

    moving targets take a tad more training, and a rifleman with a good sense of timing--when the bullet will be down range compared to the speed of the moving target
    (out of those 6, 1-3 may have that ability)

    for a "hidden" tank
    you'd want the projectile to "fall from the sky" good elevation and a round with a fucused charge that blasts it's way through the armor
    if he runs, cripple him first then go for the kill shot

    if you wanna hide, don't do a partial job of it -think entrenching tool and "china"
    if you wanna run, zigzag and speed up and slow down---stay low and dive for cover when/where-ever you find it.... a series of ten second 100 yard dashes--till you're outa range-
    then keep going

    better still
    stay home and let someone else do your killing for you
    you'll sleep better
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  18. #17  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    "Well supported combat rifle for example are capable of 2" groups at 100 meters."
    Ouch, thats scary precision, in gaming terms it sounds more like a veteran shooting prone on a fireing range than a rookie thats shooting while running and dodging bullets.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Scenario 1 (Beverly Hills Cop-ish): Two police cars arrive at a bank robbery and an imminent shoot out, Police Officer A takes cover behind the car(with head shoulder and arm exposed to fire back) but isnt moving, Police Officer B decides to be harder to hit by moving and runs in circles around the cruiser.

    Scenario 2: Modern tank A positioned hull down behind a hill crest versus tank B that's cruising in the open, being shot by other modern tanks.

    Scenario 3 (Saving Private Ryan-ish): Soldier A is shooting from a trench with Sandbags, Soldier B is running across the battlefield.

    Scenario 1; Depending on the competency of the robbers the officer who is running around like an idjit is going to be more likely to get hit. One should always seek cover if available. If none is around one is best served by moving in a random zigzag pattern. However if your opfor is using automatic weapons and they go for a spray-n-pray you are likely going to take a round or two

    Scenario 2; Tank A is most likely to be the victor in an engagement with a "running" tank. especially with computer compensated tracking. think of it like hunting a duck. Once a tank gets up to speed it is hard to make sudden sharp changes in direction.

    Scenario 3; If soldier B is Charging soldier A soldier A has the advantage. However if Soldier B is moving under fire to achieve better cover and has some luck he may survive but it is close to the same with the police. It is also much more difficult to get an accurate shot when you are moving. That is why the best shots are usually made from a prone supported position.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    In simple terms it's an average diameter of 3-5 shots. Well supported combat rifle for example are capable of 2" groups at 100 meters--which would be mostly the mechanical variation the rifle, consistency of the power load and round etc. Add the soldier's trigger pull, breathing, heart beat and the distraction from the fly licking salt off their ear lobe and few can do this...but some come close--most well trained within six inches. At 300 meters that translates into about 18 inches plus a bit for wind effect but still good enough to take down even a mostly covered man. (or scare the crap out of them!).
    Proud to say I was able to do 1 inch groups when I was in the Army And that was with the A2
    Last edited by dmwyant; May 19th, 2012 at 11:14 AM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    ... . (or scare the crap out of them!).
    my dog has a strategy for catching squirrels
    she barks at them as they scamper from limb to limb and tree to tree until she can get one to do something stupid
    and fall
    to her waiting jaws
    ...................
    though i was one of the 6 with the m14-i never developed proficiency with the 5.6mm piece of crap, and fared little better with the m1 carbine

    match the weapon to the soldier and the soldier to the weapon--------a logistical nightmare
    for a tactical advantage

    nice to read that the 7.62x51 has been redeployed in afghanistan's open country
    Last edited by sculptor; May 19th, 2012 at 12:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmwyant View Post
    Scenario 3; If soldier B is Charging soldier A soldier A has the advantage. However if Soldier B is moving under fire to achieve better cover and has some luck he may survive but it is close to the same with the police. It is also much more difficult to get an accurate shot when you are moving. That is why the best shots are usually made from a prone supported position.
    Adding another spin to this. If soldier A and B are in the same squad then soldier B is more likely to survive if soldier A can provide cover fire.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    though i was one of the 6 with the m14-i never developed proficiency with the 5.6mm piece of crap, and fared little better with the m1 carbine
    I never had the pleasure of using the M14. My first issue rifle was the M16A1, a POS that was high maintenance, prone to jamming, poorly designed hand guards that could come loose, a flash suppressor that made double shots less accurate--when it worked its peep site was pretty good but not useful in low light or glaring conditions.

    My last rifle was it's evolutionary weapon the M4A1, still high maintenance but subtle bolt and extractor changes made it less prone to jamming, collapsible stock, heavier barrel and flash suppressor, Picatinny rail system made it widely adaptable. During my last tour I had a bipod, holographic illuminated site which I would have traded for an ACOG (because my eyes aren't 20 anymore), and an IR laser for night ops firing and target designation (I had a triangle my men understood to be from my rifle). About the only thing I would have improved is adding an adjustable trigger pull--the standard issue was 8 to 11 pounds--few Soldiers can shoot well with a 10+ pull. I had mine modified (unauthorized) down to about 5 pounds.

    I never had an issue with the 5.56mm...its marvelously flat trajectory and high kinetic energy at under 250 meters makes it an excellent round against unarmored targets. We won't get rid of it until we face an army that wears body armor. Remington's new 6.8mm is getting a lot of attention but we'd have to change the NATO standards--something we won't do until we have to.
    (My personal favorite round is 25-06)
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    though i was one of the 6 with the m14-i never developed proficiency with the 5.6mm piece of crap, and fared little better with the m1 carbine
    I never had the pleasure of using the M14. My first issue rifle was the M16A1, a POS that was high maintenance, prone to jamming, poorly designed hand guards that could come loose, a flash suppressor that made double shots less accurate--when it worked its peep site was pretty good but not useful in low light or glaring conditions.

    My last rifle was it's evolutionary weapon the M4A1, still high maintenance but subtle bolt and extractor changes made it less prone to jamming, collapsible stock, heavier barrel and flash suppressor, Picatinny rail system made it widely adaptable. During my last tour I had a bipod, holographic illuminated site which I would have traded for an ACOG (because my eyes aren't 20 anymore), and an IR laser for night ops firing and target designation (I had a triangle my men understood to be from my rifle). About the only thing I would have improved is adding an adjustable trigger pull--the standard issue was 8 to 11 pounds--few Soldiers can shoot well with a 10+ pull. I had mine modified (unauthorized) down to about 5 pounds.

    I never had an issue with the 5.56mm...its marvelously flat trajectory and high kinetic energy at under 250 meters makes it an excellent round against unarmored targets. We won't get rid of it until we face an army that wears body armor. Remington's new 6.8mm is getting a lot of attention but we'd have to change the NATO standards--something we won't do until we have to.
    (My personal favorite round is 25-06)
    Have you had the oppurtunity to fire the FN five seven. Nice little piece of work and a very impressive round. I agree about the 5.56. although alot of talk was centered around overpenetration if we could just convince the world to allow for half jacet or hollow point rounds it would not be such a problem. As for Body Armor, we have rounds for the 5.56 to take care of that.

    As for personal Favorites. I like the .308
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    Real life is not Halo.
    HALO:
    Red Guy: Oh hai im moving left and right rapidly!, Cait shotz me! Blue guy: Oh hai I am runing towards you and shooting my gunz in yo face! Red guy: U can notz touch this! BANG BANG Blue guy: (KIA)
    REAL LIFE:
    Bad guy: Shoots at Good guy. Good guy: Shoots back as Bad guy begins to move right and left rapidly. Bad guy: Woah! Oh! Ha! Moving left and right rapidly well shooting Good guy. Good Guy: Shoots bad guy again.
    Bad Guy: Dead as soon as he stupidly moves Hoah Ha hoo Left and right.
    With bravery and recognition that we are harbingers of our destiny and with a paragon of virtue.
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    Yeah, games is not like real life...

    The range was too short in FPS games. In real life: combat can extend up to a kilometers away and hiding behind cover is better than revealing your position by running in the open. eg: WW2 rifle has round soo big so that it can travel up to a kilometers away because combat can extend that long, and people at 100 meters away are already tiny and seem to move really slow even when they run.

    And tank do not move in the open, they hide in camouflage. Future tank will also have chameleon like skin.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    WW2 rifle has round soo big so that it can travel up to a kilometers away because combat can extend that long, and people at 100 meters away are already tiny and seem to move really slow even when they run.

    And tank do not move in the open, they hide in camouflage. Future tank will also have chameleon like skin.
    Ummm... Where did you get your information regarding second world war rifle rounds? I ask because the largest round was the .50 used in the browning automatic rifle which was not what one would refer to as a battle rifle. Standard rounds were in the 6.5mm to 7.62mm range with a few 8mm rounds developed. For pistols and submachine guns the most common were 9mm and .45 caliber. As for a person 100 meters away They aren't that tiny and don't look like they are moving that slowly. Unless you meant 1000 meters instead of 100. As for tanks, Actually they do both, during recent engagements between tanks in Iraq and Afghanistan There were both instances of tanks engaged in shoot on the move battles as well as ha ha you can't see me battles. About the camouflage have you seen this Active Camouflage System Uses E-Ink to Make Tanks Invisible on the Battlefield | Popular Science and the youtube video here BAE's Adaptive Camouflage - YouTube It is very cool
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    I watch an episode of "Weaponology" (but don't remember the details) and it says that M-16 and later variant of assault rifle has a smaller bullet (than WW2 version) because long-range combat is not quite effective for soldiers (so they made a smaller variant which is better), also urban rifle (I think I watch in "Future Weapons" on Israeli's rifle and used by Secret Service) is much shorter rifle because it allow quicker handling around corner (for urban combat). So, the pattern is: assault rifle became shorter and shorter as we progress into the modern age...
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    up to a point msafwan
    but the afghan theatre is a different terrain, where the long shot is needed
    our enemy combatants there quickly learned the range of our weapons and stayed out of it
    so the remaining m14s were de-mothballed and reissued
    and our effective range increased as did our kill shots
    different terrain different tactics different weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Scenario 1 (Beverly Hills Cop-ish): Two police cars arrive at a bank robbery and an imminent shoot out, Police Officer A takes cover behind the car(with head shoulder and arm exposed to fire back) but isnt moving, Police Officer B decides to be harder to hit by moving and runs in circles around the cruiser.
    You could factor in the decreased accuracy the bad guys will experience if Officer A is covering their position. Whenever they pop out from behind cover, they have only a split second to aim before he zeros in and shoots them first.

    I guess I mean the "suppressive fire" effect, but not necessarily just machine guns. An accurately aimed pistol that keeps landing shots within a few inches of your face every time you try to peak around the barrier you're hiding behind is a strong deterrent against trying to return (accurate) fire at Officer A. You might dare to reach around the wall with your just your hand and fire off some un-aimed scattered shots.

    If you really want to make a video game out of this, the thing I find almost all games are missing are those kinds of subtleties (like the hand around the corner wild shot.) Sometimes it's really bad, like you peak around a corner with your site on an enemy, and fire, only to discover that the game interprets that corner in a way where you're gun is aimed at the wall instead of where the cross hairs are, so you shoot the wall and alert your opponents. If somebody could get cover right in a game, that would add a new dimension.




    Scenario 3 (Saving Private Ryan-ish): Soldier A is shooting from a trench with Sandbags, Soldier B is running across the battlefield.
    I think a lot of the time, when the enemy misses you in war, it's psychological. Their mind isn't conditioned to kill, and so they aim high or otherwise avoid hitting when they could have in order to spare themselves the anguish they expect to experience later on.

    The book "Men Who Stare at Goats" (it's not like the movie really), goes into some detail interviewing the people who implemented the training US soldiers receive in this respect. Lack of such training is considered to be one of the many reasons why we lost so many people in Vietnam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by msafwan View Post
    I watch an episode of "Weaponology" (but don't remember the details) and it says that M-16 and later variant of assault rifle has a smaller bullet (than WW2 version) because long-range combat is not quite effective for soldiers (so they made a smaller variant which is better), also urban rifle (I think I watch in "Future Weapons" on Israeli's rifle and used by Secret Service) is much shorter rifle because it allow quicker handling around corner (for urban combat). So, the pattern is: assault rifle became shorter and shorter as we progress into the modern age...
    Actually that is incorrect. The maximum effective range for a 7.62 round is between 400 and 450 meters where the 5.56 has an effective range between 550 meters and 600 meters. You need to remember that a heavier round has to contend wth gravity after it leaves the barrel along with drag from the atmosphere. The larger the bullet the more surface area the greater the drag. While the 7.62 has greater stopping power because it can deliver more joules on impact, the 5.56 has greater range.

    The rifles themselves have become shorter to accomadate the close quarters found in urban combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmwyant View Post
    You need to remember that a heavier round has to contend wth gravity after it leaves the barrel along with drag from the atmosphere.
    Gravity affects heavy and light rounds/objects the same. But I see what you mean about drag being an issue. The higher mass gives it more inertia, but the larger cross section gives it more drag to counter that.

    Also I think part of what helps the small bullet is that it's easier to get them going faster when they leave the barrel. Faster both in terms of how fast they're moving, and also in terms of how fast they're spinning.
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    Thanks kojax, I got my inertia and gravity mixed up again
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmwyant View Post
    Actually that is incorrect. The maximum effective range for a 7.62 round is between 400 and 450 meters where the 5.56 has an effective range between 550 meters and 600 meters. .
    I don't know where you are getting your figures from. The 7.62 has a longer range than the 5.56. Perhaps you mean maximum point blank range, i.e., the range that will hit the target while holding dead on, and making no corrections for bullet drop. The 5.56 has a higher muzzle velocity and shoots flatter, but the 7.62 will have more downrange energy.
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    The Army is doubling the number of 7.62mm weapons in the infantry squad, increasing soldiers’ long-range killing power in the wide-open expanses of Afghanistan.
    Since the beginning of the war, a typical nine-man infantry squad has included a single squad-designated marksman, armed with a surplus M14 rifle for engaging the enemy beyond the 300-meter range of M4s and M16s.
    Today, squads are deploying to Afghanistan with two SDMs, each armed with the M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle, a modernized version of the Vietnam War-era weapon that’s accurate out to 800 meters.

    from
    Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

    hell man
    i slept with that rifle and fell in love
    so i will defend it just like women i have loved
    ............
    which means
    I'm biased
    ....................
    edit
    on average, generally the heavier the round, the higher the balistic coefficient,
    zero for the expected range, and adjust according to circumstance
    the mantra is---"elevation and windage"
    if you think it before every long shot, it helps to calm the nerves
    ...........
    for the last 10 years
    winmag 300 in a model 70
    (remington's 300 needs a better bolt with a better safety)
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  36. #35  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    About the M14:
    I was curious and googled images and saw this:
    http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/image...15/m14_dmr.jpg
    m14_dmr.jpg
    is that a silencer?
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  37. #36  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    silencer/suppresser
    i think ih has 3 purposes
    to suppress
    sound
    recoil
    flash
    .....
    the supersonic bullet would still make a noise
    using a boattail helps lower that
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  38. #37  
    Forum Bachelors Degree dmwyant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dmwyant View Post
    Actually that is incorrect. The maximum effective range for a 7.62 round is between 400 and 450 meters where the 5.56 has an effective range between 550 meters and 600 meters. .
    I don't know where you are getting your figures from. The 7.62 has a longer range than the 5.56. Perhaps you mean maximum point blank range, i.e., the range that will hit the target while holding dead on, and making no corrections for bullet drop. The 5.56 has a higher muzzle velocity and shoots flatter, but the 7.62 will have more downrange energy.
    Actually the range figures came directly from JANE's And I believe you are right it is flat range.
    Not all who wander are lost... Some of us just misplaced our destination.

    I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist.
    -Jack London
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  39. #38  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    I should have made this my first Poll

    Rifle vs 1- Running Soldier or 2- Soldier Shooting from a sandbag Trench:

    A Its much easier to hit (1) a running soldier
    B Its much easier to hit (2) a solder mostly covered behind a trench and sandbags
    C Both are about equivalent, both are somewhat harder than hitting a man that's just standing there in the open with a bull's eye T-shit


    maybe, next time
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