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Thread: Bomb the piss outa' them.

  1. #1 Bomb the piss outa' them. 
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
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    Obviously, in Afghanistan, there are no infrastructure victories. There is no infrastructure left in Afghanistan and the culture still resists westernization.
    We should bomb the piss out of em' with western culture, or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof.
    Constant airdrops of Hibachi's, steak's, Hostess, Frito Lay, Pepsi and Coca Cola. Make em' all fat and lazy.
    Big screen TV's, X-Box's, PlayStation 3's, Honda generators to run all that stuff, and some big Weatherport's to keep it dry in. Classic bread and circus pacification.

    And Justin Bieber, drop him right on Afghanistan, from 3,000 meters, no parachute!


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  3. #2  
    Forum Bachelors Degree 15uliane's Avatar
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    only way we're gonna win.


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  4. #3  
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    Wow. That's not a bad idea. Give them a taste of the good life, but only a taste. They gotta surrender if they want the rest.

    I'd say no TV's or generators, though. Only expendable/consumable stuff that runs out after you've enjoyed it for a moment.
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    They don't want our crap. Someday we'll get a clue that their values aren't' the same as ours. Our own arrogance is half the problem.

    Like ask the average American what Bid Laden wanted and they'd frame their answer in Western terms such as power, money etc. When they couldn't be more wrong and show that despite his clear articulation of what he wants numerous times we continue to ignore his words because we can't wrap our head around a different value system than ours. Our mis-perceptions are outright dangerous.
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    @Kojax; Staying home and playing video games is surrender, just without mentioning it.

    @Lynx_Fox; Well yeah, most Americans only have the "answers" that Rupert Murdock has supplied them with. I still think your average Afghani would enjoy playing some "SoCom 6" as long as it was packaged as "Intifadah".
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    Great...now I got to look up what "SoCom 6" is. :?

    A good number of Afghans agree with the Taliban and don't like any music. They somewhat compensate with the lyrical recitations of the Koran.

    Those in the cities tend to be more liberal and don't mind listening to music from Iran, which many consider the cultural center of the entire region, or from Egypt. There are several musical groups from there as well.
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  8. #7  
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    Great...now I got to look up what "SoCom 6" is.
    I've probably misspelled it, but I understand it to be one of the popular military style first person shooters.
    If I had more time available, I'd be all over some good video crack.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    They don't want our crap. Someday we'll get a clue that their values aren't' the same as ours. Our own arrogance is half the problem.

    <...>

    Our mis-perceptions are outright dangerous.
    QFT... and I'll add, comically inaccurate with some posting here.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    They don't want our crap. Someday we'll get a clue that their values aren't' the same as ours. Our own arrogance is half the problem.

    Like ask the average American what Bid Laden wanted and they'd frame their answer in Western terms such as power, money etc. When they couldn't be more wrong and show that despite his clear articulation of what he wants numerous times we continue to ignore his words because we can't wrap our head around a different value system than ours. Our mis-perceptions are outright dangerous.
    I have to test my understanding against this.

    Osama wants historical immortality and the respect of the Muslim community. He believes he can obtain that if he helps them obtain their collective goals "by any means necessary". If this were a comic book, he'd a vigilante superhero in his own eyes and in the eyes of a lot of Muslims. They may not always agree with his methods, but they certainly agree with his goals.

    The Muslim community wants to revive the Ottoman Empire so they can go around conquering their neighbors and forcibly converting them to Islam. Of course they break this goal into parts, and request each part separately in order to make it seem like a very reasonable thing to ask. It's a classic "Camel's nose in the Tent" strategy.

    http://camelphotos.com/tales_nose.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    Osama wants historical immortality and the respect of the Muslim community. He believes he can obtain that if he helps them obtain their collective goals "by any means necessary". If this were a comic book, he'd a vigilante superhero in his own eyes and in the eyes of a lot of Muslims. They may not always agree with his methods, but they certainly agree with his goals.

    The Muslim community wants to revive the Ottoman Empire so they can go around conquering their neighbors and forcibly converting them to Islam. Of course they break this goal into parts, and request each part separately in order to make it seem like a very reasonable thing to ask.
    Applying Western thinking is usually wrong--as in this case. You haven't even mentioned what he's said it wants to both Muslims,which is why they support him, or to the West repeatedly.

    Someone who wants historical immortality doesn't live in the shadows.
    He would have hated the Ottoman Empire because they didn't entire follow Shiria law, but had a dual system a bit similar to the one Iraq it nudging towards.

    Furthermore of hundred of pages of Bin Laden quotes, you won't find one about global domination or even converting the West to Islam. He does have a couple minor comments about the role of Muslims--but it's not much stronger than the quest Christians have to save others. What you believe is essentially a lie told to the Americans to scare them--it works because we apply our values to him.

    His message is consistent and pretty simple. He wants the West, particularly the US, to stay of Middle East business. This includes our media, our culture, our exploitive oil companies and our foreign policy which supports Apostate governments like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait who don't follow the Koran and cooperate with the US.

    He doesn't want wealth (he lives the most ascetic life), 50 virgins, to "be king," to take over America (or any other nation out of Arabia) or most of the other nonsense ignorant Americans thinks he wants.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Bachelors Degree 15uliane's Avatar
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    Just to be sure, are you agreeing with Bin Laden? I mean, I don't think it is any of our buisness what Islamists want to do to themselves. If the people don't want it, they will eventually rise up. But Bin Laden killed 3000 americans, not to mention the 5500 from afghanistan and iraq (which although did not directly result from Bin Laden, were victims of his movement or the Baathists.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15uliane
    Just to be sure, are you agreeing with Bin Laden? I mean, I don't think it is any of our buisness what Islamists want to do to themselves. If the people don't want it, they will eventually rise up. But Bin Laden killed 3000 americans, not to mention the 5500 from afghanistan and iraq (which although did not directly result from Bin Laden, were victims of his movement or the Baathists.
    I'm just pointing out his position. I certainly don't agree with some of his views, like exclusively Islam for Arabs because that's how he views his superstition. I've also spent a good part of the past ten years fighting against his ilk, some of it at great personal risk. Obviously I don't agree with his methods. understanding a man doesn't mean you agree with him

    On the other hand last year, when as an Iraqi military advisor, we spent a lot of time in areas like the picture I took below. It is of desperate poverty. To the left is a typical Marsh Arab reed house, each morning the women walk a half a mile to a canal and carry water to their home and fill the blue UN-proved water barrel along with chloride tablet; this is their only source of drinking water. They have no electricity. The waste land behind them used to be a thriving marsh area that was cut off from water by Sadam's bulldozers. The reed covered "barn" is for their water buffalo barely visible as black specks to the left and the only way too keep them cool during the extremely hot summers because they can't wade in water. The three women are pissed (the oldest to the right is shaking her fist) because the Iraq Army raided their village and rounded up all their men for questioning while searching their homes. Most have almost nothing of value other than a stove, a bowl to cook rice, flea invested sleeping matts, some rice breads and cheeses and an occasional AK-47. The nearest school is five or six miles the kids that go share the village's one or two 70s pickups. Almost all the children in these marsh villages show signs of malnourished and have various parasitic infections.

    And here's the thing--this is one of the richest places on earth! This village is on top of the Majnoon oilfield holding billions of barrels of oil. It's only chance that I didn't capture one of the low rigs in the background; at night you see the gas burn-off from wells in every direction. Of course almost all these oil fields are leased by the Iraqi government with most of the profit going to Western or Chinese oil interest--a minority share goes to the corrupt government the US was bolstering. Obviously none of it is getting down to the peoples who've lived there for thousands of years.

    Is it any wonder Bin Laden's "stay out of Arabia" or "Stop exploiting Arabs," or "stop stealing the oil-it isn't yours" message resonates?

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  14. #13  
    Forum Bachelors Degree 15uliane's Avatar
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    So you think we should intervene to help these poor people?

    My main point was that we have no buisness in the middle east.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox

    His message is consistent and pretty simple. He wants the West, particularly the US, to stay of Middle East business. This includes our media, our culture, our exploitive oil companies and our foreign policy which supports Apostate governments like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait who don't follow the Koran and cooperate with the US.
    I agree that's its wrong to exploit them, but it's not like we wouldn't be happy to pay marsh Arabs directly for their oil, if they had it to give. How's the saying go? Possession is 9/10 of ownership? They live there, but they'd never have possession in any realistic version of their society. Whoever's got the guns has the possession, and that's always the regime. If they owned something else of value, the government would snatch that up too. It's the problem of allowing thieves to rule. How's that our fault? We can't stop it.

    It's 100% the fault of their own culture that things are that way. It's 0% ours. In American culture, private property is a core value and government officials can't just run around and take whatever they want, but in their culture, corruption is an accepted part of life. Until an ethic emerges in their society that says "this is wrong" when they see an official on the take, we're powerless to do anything to fix it. Any attempt to curtail the corruption in their governments will run right up against the grain of their culture. They'll act like we're bossing them around. There is no way, short of changing them, to fix the images in that photograph you took.

    This is why I hate cross culturalism. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be tribalists, but never have to be in the losing tribe. It's like wanting to add 2 + 2 and get 5, and then getting really really mad at the big superpower because it won't convert their logical absurdities into reality for them.



    He doesn't want wealth (he lives the most ascetic life), 50 virgins, to "be king," to take over America (or any other nation out of Arabia) or most of the other nonsense ignorant Americans thinks he wants.
    Yeah. I kind of have him pegged as a "hero of the people" type. Money doesn't mean much to him. He grew up with all the money he could ever want, and so he should know by now that it won't bring him happiness.
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  16. #15  
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    You really want to blame the buyer instead of the thief?
    The buyer? How about the ones who supported Sadam, including giving him the only weapons of mass destruction to fight Iran (and are coincidently the only ones we've ever found). Than turned against him after he threatened "our" oil. How about the broken promises we made to the Kurds and Marsh Arabs if they resisting him and than sat in the side line and watched him commit ethnic cleaning after Desert storm.

    And of course it's our companies doing much of the drilling. Our companies who've resistant their attempts to refine their own products etc.

    We're a lot more than "buyers," we've been active participants in shaping the entire region often to the disadvantage of the peoples there because we're addicted to oil--It's that simple.

    It's 100% the fault of their own culture that things are that way. It's 0% ours.
    It's honestly hard to know. The West had so much involvement with shaping that culture over the past century (economic, borders, media culture, propping, defeating and install governments etc) that it's nearly impossible to draw the % of attribution. We definitely hold some responsibility though--for messing with them and well as setting the conditions for why much of Arabia finds satisfaction in the extreme words of those that hate us.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    You really want to blame the buyer instead of the thief?
    The buyer? How about the ones who supported Sadam, including giving him the only weapons of mass destruction to fight Iran (and are coincidently the only ones we've ever found). Than turned against him after he threatened "our" oil. How about the broken promises we made to the Kurds and Marsh Arabs if they resisting him and than sat in the side line and watched him commit ethnic cleaning after Desert storm.

    And of course it's our companies doing much of the drilling. Our companies who've resistant their attempts to refine their own products etc.

    We're a lot more than "buyers," we've been active participants in shaping the entire region often to the disadvantage of the peoples there because we're addicted to oil--It's that simple.
    I think you'd find that OPEC is the real issue. Saddam's initial mistake was violating OPEC quotas. OPEC operates by setting quotas that represent the maximum amount of oil each member country is allowed to sell in a given year, in order to keep prices high (this is the main purpose of the organization.) They don't have perfect control, because Russia isn't a member, but they have a lot of influence. Saddam kept violating those quotas to try and pay off some of his war debt, and kept selling more oil than he was allowed.

    The final straw was when he threatened to go off of the US Dollar and trade his oil in another currency. But that also upset OPEC as much as anyone, as the Saudis influence over the USA comes just as much through their accumulated wealth in dollars as through their ability to manipulate oil prices. (Especially the dollars they made during the insane inflation that happened during the 1973 oil crisis - most of which was to pay for oil.) They can make or break any president's presidency by either propping up the economy, or creating a recession.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oi...ab_oil_embargo



    (Graph of inflation adjusted price vs. unadjusted price in the 1973 Oil Crisis.)


    The way to test who's calling the shots is to ask yourself: if the Saudis were in control of the invasion or Iraq would they want the oil pumps there to be A) - Producing, or B) - Shut down?

    If the USA were the one deciding how the invasion would go forward would the USA want the oil pumps to be A) - Producing, or B) - Shut down?

    Who got what they wanted?
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