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Thread: use both ends of a car engine

  1. #1 use both ends of a car engine 
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    Hello,

    I just had my old car (Nissan Pulsar N15) running out of registration and rather than just sending it to the wreckers, I'm wrecking it myself to give some parts a second life (fixing it to make it roadworthy again would be too expensive.)
    I was thinking about turning the engine and gearbox into a self propelled hydraulic power pack - compressor - generator (I already have a fair bit of parts coming from tractors and others; pumps, belts, generators, rams, ...)
    I first thought about welding the diff locked, in the gearbox, connect one drive shaft to a rear axle and the other drive shaft to the generator (inverter technology) and the hydraulic pump on the power steering pulley. The compressor is the engine itself, two cylinders as engine, two cylinders as compressor.
    Then, I found another rear axle, about same size and reduction. So I thought, why not making it an articulated 4WD rig. It is a 110hp engine so, even running on two cylinders (no other load on the engine when moving,) with the 3.1:1 reduction of the axles, I can tow a trailer without trouble (tell me if I'm dreaming)
    In order to drive the alternator and hydraulic pump, I'd turn the crank pulley into a PTO, using the power steering pump to actually, well, just steer the rig.

    Now, comes the actual questions

    First, how much load can I put on the other end of the engine (the crank pulley side) without stressing it too much? I don't know much about the stress limits in an engine but I guess the crankshaft wouldn't appreciate to have to deliver 50hp thru the pulley end when the flywheel isn't loaded at all. But again, I could be wrong.

    Secondly, would I be better off using a custom pulley and drive my pump and generator with belts (which would make it easier to correct the rpm's of each) or should I better make a coaxial coupling to avoid lateral stress, eventually using a rubber coupling?

    Thank you for any other point of view or advice.

    Ben


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  3. #2  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
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    Please do not become offended but on seeing this thread a little humor must be added, just because I have fond memories of a old Nissan.. The short answer is no. Attempting to use two of the four as a pump or compressor.. no. Rigging a four wheel drive, no. So I am being negative.. Your old car is stuffed. Dump it before you wast another $ on it.. If you want for ag., equipment buy it. Home builds are like throwing money away. You want a generator converter..buy one. use it as a ornament.. no, its full of pollutants.. Get it out of your life.. move on by some other means.. The Pulsar is over. As for selling it as parts.. no.. who in 2014 wants Pulsar bits ? If you have room and the want. Turn its rusting hulk into a shook house.. Make it a art..


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  4. #3 EFI engine, not ego engine 
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Please do not become offended but on seeing this thread a little humor must be added, just because I have fond memories of a old Nissan.. The short answer is no. Attempting to use two of the four as a pump or compressor.. no. Rigging a four wheel drive, no. So I am being negative.. Your old car is stuffed. Dump it before you wast another $ on it.. If you want for ag., equipment buy it. Home builds are like throwing money away. You want a generator converter..buy one. use it as a ornament.. no, its full of pollutants.. Get it out of your life.. move on by some other means.. The Pulsar is over. As for selling it as parts.. no.. who in 2014 wants Pulsar bits ? If you have room and the want. Turn its rusting hulk into a shook house.. Make it a art..

    Well, well,...
    First of all, thank you for taking your time to read and answer my post.
    I see there two ways to take it. Well, actually, there but one isn't part of the options list, forget it.
    So, fist one, let's just consider it as a time/money consuming piece of art. Everyone is free of being artistic as far as I know.
    The second one is to ask why. Why not using an engine as a compressor? It's been done many times thru the years.
    Why not 4WD? If the rig weighs less than the car and the reduction in the difference of the rear axle is 3.1:1, the torque endured by the transmission will be really low compared to what it usually is when driving the car. Knowing that the car has been running on two cylinders just to try, the engine is able to handle it.
    I know the engine isn't the best of all but. If it works, why not reconditioning it? Isn't a well tuned (EGO--- take that off) EFI quite efficient and clean?
    I'm not trying to be stubborn, just trying to understand, maybe there are things that I'm not realizing.

    Now, if we just thing about the two questions about the use of the small end of the engine and, whether using a pulley setting or a coaxial coupling?

    Regards,

    Ben
    Last edited by bendb89; September 23rd, 2014 at 03:51 PM. Reason: misspelling
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  5. #4  
    Forum Professor astromark's Avatar
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    Then yes Ben, yes... but you might need a toothed belt drive to better harness crank energy. It will work. All of which is true. You might require a larger radiator.. heat is the enemy..
    ~ but more efficient and cost effective methods of .. of.. what was it you want to build ?
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  6. #5  
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    Hello.

    I just realised that I've misspelled in the last post. I meant to say "a well tuned EFI..."
    The toothed belt is certainly a good idea. I should probably better put a safety clutch in between then.
    I actually didn't think about a bigger radiator (even if it was probably going to be the case as the original has suffered when hitting a kangaroo). It is true that I will not have the airflow due to the speed of the car driving on the road.
    I'm still a bit concerned about the fact that I'll be using that side of the engine. How much power is the crankshaft able to handle at that end?
    In my mind, I see the crankshaft being used to transfer the energy of the first cylinder right thru to the flywheel, which try to twist the shaft in one direction. And all a sudden, I'll make the last cylinder transfer his energy to the crank puley,which will try to twist the crankshaft the other way. Is that an issue?
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    I appreciate your desire and ingenuity. I am inclined to believe, using a 4 stroke engine as a compressor is an inefficient use of the mechanics. The power plant you have is designed to put out a valuable amount of horse power. Take that plant and harness the usable energy, if you attempt to break down the internal workings by eliminating or altering the components of the plant, you will loose efficiency, longevity, and potentially create a hazardous device.
    Most compressors are 2 stroke cylinders, which utilize the acting gas as an operating component of the cycle. Also the balance of the crankshaft may not endure the reverse effort put on the bearings.
    I do admire your ingenuity and would love to hear what you decide to do with the old girl, please keep safety in mind.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    I appreciate your desire and ingenuity. I am inclined to believe, using a 4 stroke engine as a compressor is an inefficient use of the mechanics. The power plant you have is designed to put out a valuable amount of horse power. Take that plant and harness the usable energy, if you attempt to break down the internal workings by eliminating or altering the components of the plant, you will loose efficiency, longevity, and potentially create a hazardous device.
    Most compressors are 2 stroke cylinders, which utilize the acting gas as an operating component of the cycle. Also the balance of the crankshaft may not endure the reverse effort put on the bearings.
    I do admire your ingenuity and would love to hear what you decide to do with the old girl, please keep safety in mind.
    Thank you for take your time too, I really appreciate.
    So, not having the expansion stroke in two of the cylinders would stress the crankshaft too much?
    I'd better keep it as a full engine and drive a compressor than (which could be another engine like a little three cylinder diesel but that's another question..)
    So back to 110hp (actually, it gives 110 at 6400 but I don't really imagine running my rig at 6400rpm,) which bring me even more concern about the fact of using the power on the pulley size of the engine. Sorry to bring the question again.
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    By the way, I agree for the safety first, I'm not planning on making a giant meat mincer.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by bendb89 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by keeseguy View Post
    I appreciate your desire and ingenuity. I am inclined to believe, using a 4 stroke engine as a compressor is an inefficient use of the mechanics. The power plant you have is designed to put out a valuable amount of horse power. Take that plant and harness the usable energy, if you attempt to break down the internal workings by eliminating or altering the components of the plant, you will loose efficiency, longevity, and potentially create a hazardous device.
    Most compressors are 2 stroke cylinders, which utilize the acting gas as an operating component of the cycle. Also the balance of the crankshaft may not endure the reverse effort put on the bearings.
    I do admire your ingenuity and would love to hear what you decide to do with the old girl, please keep safety in mind.
    Thank you for take your time too, I really appreciate.
    So, not having the expansion stroke in two of the cylinders would stress the crankshaft too much?
    I'd better keep it as a full engine and drive a compressor than (which could be another engine like a little three cylinder diesel but that's another question..)
    So back to 110hp (actually, it gives 110 at 6400 but I don't really imagine running my rig at 6400rpm,) which bring me even more concern about the fact of using the power on the pulley size of the engine. Sorry to bring the question again.
    I don't think driving the load from the front crank pulley would be detrimental to the bearings of the crankshaft. That end of the engine is responsible for the alternator, the A/C and power steering. If you are going to use belt drive thinkin the belt would be the weakest link. If you could use the transmission, you would gain more flexibility, like speed and reversibility.
    Keep me posted.
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  11. #10  
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    Hello.

    Thanks for that answer. I'll still have to study a bit the belts and pulleys. The basics are quite obvious but I have a bit of trouble to find some data's about the speeds and strengths of the belts.
    I could eventually use a direct coupling or rubber, or thru a clutch but it's a bit annoying cause most of the time, I would need a reversing transfer case.
    I'm not going to use the tranny for two reason, first is that I want to use it to drive the wheels. Second is that is a transversal layout so I would need to open it to lock the diff (not fond of the idea)
    But nothing stops me to drive another gearbox with the belt (or just thought about it, wouldn't a chain be more efficient? Or would it be comparable to a toothed belt?)
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  12. #11  
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    In terms of the physical construction of a crank shaft, there is no general reason why one end would be weaker than the other, although the crank diameter may be different one end to the other, and there may be different sized flanges at each end, which might affect the ease of mechanical fixing and the amount of torque you could transmit. The bearings in the engine block might be different types and sizes as well, which would affect how much load each end could handle.

    You say you want to lock the diff, but what if the pumps/services you are feeding run at different speeds according to load? In that case it might be advantageous to keep the diff free, as long as the torque/power taken by the service on each side was comparable.

    A chain will be stronger than a belt, but will need lubricating and they can wear a lot. Modern toothed belts are pretty strong and do not need lubricating. Both will need a tensioner.

    OB
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  13. #12  
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    I would bet you would find the front end bearing more suitable for belt/chain drive. That end of the engine is designed to transmit power non linear (off to the side). As with an electric motor the drive end bearing may be larger then the thrust end. In the case of an auto engine the transmission bearings would offer some level of linear support to that end of the motor. Using power from that end might be more suitable as A PTO type of drive (using a coupling).
    When dealing with the drive systems I would consult the local bearing/power transmission company. Their engineers have many new up-to-date technologies, and can tell you the best way to feed your loads, and protect your drivers.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    The Pulsar is over. As for selling it as parts.. no.. who in 2014 wants Pulsar bits ?
    I wasnt sure what a Nissan pulsar looked like so I actually bothered to google it. I agree with you, who would want a pulsar in 2014

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