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Thread: Gold Bullets

  1. #1 Gold Bullets 
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    Since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)? Please explain in detail.


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    I am not really clear what you mean by "for rifling a bullet". Would a gold bullet take rifling well? Probably, but there are no doubt other board readers more qualified than I to say. Gold would have an advantage over lead as a bullet in that it is much denser, which leads to more penetration and a greater mass to air resistance ratio. The down side is gold is very expensive.


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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    I am not really clear what you mean by "for rifling a bullet". Would a gold bullet take rifling well? Probably, but there are no doubt other board readers more qualified than I to say. Gold would have an advantage over lead as a bullet in that it is much denser, which leads to more penetration and a greater mass to air resistance ratio. The down side is gold is very expensive.
    And very soft. I'd imagine a 155mm made out of gold would splatter on a tank like a paintball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    And very soft. I'd imagine a 155mm made out of gold would splatter on a tank like a paintball.
    (nods) which, amoung, other reasons why lead isn't used as anti-armor either.
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    Right so this means gold may rifle better than copper but would foul more in the barrel (is this correct?). Thanks guys, which mohs, vickers/brinell hardness (or any other measure of hardness vs softness) is the sweet spot for rifling (I am using polygonal rifling).

    Is there a metal that is soft but doesn't foul as much when compared to copper? Is copper chosen because it is the best, or most economical, bear in mind this is only the cylinder of the bullet we are talking about, and not the nose of the bullet (which is a superalloy (and hence designed to be as fracture resistant as possible)))?

    And since Dywydyrr seems to be ignoring me (apologies if he isn't) is it the overall density of the whole bullet that matters, or just the density of the contact surfaces (between the bullet material and impact target material) when estimating penetration?

    Sorry for the question fest, please please please answer all questions if you can?

    Have a wonderful new year guys. Hope all yo wishes come true
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)? Please explain in detail.
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    Apparently the internet equivalent of "first footing" is "post like an incoherent idiot".
    I do hope it doesn't catch on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    Apparently the internet equivalent of "first footing" is "post like an incoherent idiot".
    I do hope it doesn't catch on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)? Please explain in detail.
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    True, but platinum is so expensive, only reason I picked iridium over osmium is cuz it is so common in meteorites.

    LOOOOOOOOOOOL, this not doing much to help my situation. About to roll on the floor with laughter. I guess you drunk. Weird how ethanol affects us in such wonderful ways. And to Mr duck, sometimes you just gotta have fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    Apparently the internet equivalent of "first footing" is "post like an incoherent idiot".
    I do hope it doesn't catch on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)? Please explain in detail.
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    LOOOOOOOOOOOL, this not doing much to help my situation. About to roll on the floor with laughter. I guess you drunk. Weird how ethanol affects us in such wonderful ways. C'mon Mr duck, sometimes you just gotta have fun.
    yes well said Ace. don't know why daffy has to try to top the rabbit. The Lmerry Fudderiser is a far easier target for little pudding dumplings.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    Apparently the internet equivalent of "first footing" is "post like an incoherent idiot".
    I do hope it doesn't catch on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)? Please explain in detail.
    .. hmm. bein an ha'mamateur tinkerer, I'd have a giz at rifling your gold sleeving against some platinum jacketing. seems a fair fold to hold an edge don't you think ChaosD.Ace?
    LOOOOOOOOOOOL, this not doing much to help my situation. About to roll on the floor with laughter. I guess you drunk. Weird how ethanol affects us in such wonderful ways. C'mon Mr duck, sometimes you just gotta have fun.
    yes well said Ace. don't know why daffy has to try to top the rabbit. The Lmerry Fudderiser is a far easier target for little pudding dumplings.....
    Dude, even less sense, even more incoherence, you makin my day man

    But I was talkin about you earlier.

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    i'll have to tap the toad for my rampant re-doodlerising and barkin-hut pretension. please forgive any thoughtlessness on my part. No offense was specifically intended.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    i'll have to tap the toad for my rampant re-doodlerising and barkin-hut pretension. please forgive any thoughtlessness on my part. No offense was specifically intended.
    Thank you, he can seem a bit old fashioned sometimes, but he means well and hes a cool guy, remember to take somethin for the hangover tomorrow, don't want that killer migraine messin up your day. Have a nice enening/morning, wherever you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cNemonePuRchin* View Post
    i'll have to tap the toad for my rampant re-doodlerising and barkin-hut pretension. please forgive any thoughtlessness on my part. No offense was specifically intended.
    Thank you, he can seem a bit old fashioned sometimes, but he means well and hes a cool guy, remember to take somethin for the hangover tomorrow, don't want that killer migraine messin up your day. Have a nice enening/morning, wherever you are.
    pleasure jawing with you as always. Don't worry about my migraine. Good cup of tea always helped at tha' pickle d'D market. Like you said when we turned the little snot back on his rhye
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    And since Dywydyrr seems to be ignoring me (apologies if he isn't)
    You currently are on ignore: for one reason:
    I am just an aspiring naive engineer
    What you're generally posting is the equivalent of someone coming in to a garage and saying "Hey guys I've had an idea! Let's replace the camshaft of your high-performance engine with a chicken. What could go wrong?".
    You claim to be an aspiring engineer. Were you my apprentice you'd (currently) get a worse summary than did Stanley Hooker (in case you don't get it the book title is what Hs said to him at his interview for Rolls-Royce). Fortunately (for Britain) Hooker became an engineer worth listening to.

    Examples:
    is copper chosen because it is the best, or most economical
    If we're talking about engineering then "most economical" is, almost by definition, the best.

    bear in mind this is only the cylinder of the bullet we are talking about
    Bear in mind that with a bullet it's the JACKET (the outer coating that's only a few tens of thou thick) that's copper, not the body.

    is it the overall density of the whole bullet that matters, or just the density of the contact surfaces (between the bullet material and impact target material) when estimating penetration?
    It depends on whether you're intending the entire thing to penetrate or just the nose (which would only partially penetrate) while the rest just flattens on the surface of the armour. I know which is the preferred military option.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; December 31st, 2013 at 10:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    And very soft. I'd imagine a 155mm made out of gold would splatter on a tank like a paintball.
    (nods) which, amoung, other reasons why lead isn't used as anti-armor either.
    Adding on to my less than educational post, the "paintball" reference made me think of Oddball from the movie Kelly's Heroes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    And since Dywydyrr seems to be ignoring me (apologies if he isn't)
    You currently are on ignore: for one reason:
    I am just an aspiring naive engineer
    What you're generally posting is the equivalent of someone coming in to a garage and saying "Hey guys I've had an idea! Let's replace the camshaft of your high-performance engine with a chicken. What could go wrong?".
    You claim to be an aspiring engineer. Were you my apprentice you'd (currently) get a worse summary than did Stanley Hooker (in case you don't get it the book title is what Hs said to him at his interview for Rolls-Royce. Fortunately (for Britain) Hooker became an engineer worth listening to.

    Examples:
    is copper chosen because it is the best, or most economical
    If we're talking about engineering then "most economical" is, almost by definition, the best.

    bear in mind this is only the cylinder of the bullet we are talking about
    Bear in mind that with a bullet it's the JACKET (the outer coating that's only a few tens of thou thick) that's copper, not the body.

    is it the overall density of the whole bullet that matters, or just the density of the contact surfaces (between the bullet material and impact target material) when estimating penetration?
    It depends on whether you're intending the entire thing to penetrate or just the nose (which would only partially penetrate) while the rest just flattens on the surface of the armour. I know which is the preferred military option.
    Thank you for the answer, and the insult. I am only 17 and I am here to learn. For the record I tend to look for the absolute best performance rather then best performance "for its price". You should know already, by my other posts and my PM, that I am using an iridium core, and thus I am very well aware that the JACKET is a few tens of thou thick, but I don't think I specified it in this question.

    I am (for further clarification) sectioning the jacket itself into three segments; the nose (which if i am correct acts as the penetrating surface of the bullet), the cylinder (acts to form the gas seal and engage the rifling by expanding into the grooves or in my case the polygonal rifling) and the boat tail, which for my bullet must be designed to resist deformation from the pressures and temperature so that it can retain its shape as much as possible for the sake of aerodynamics during external ballistics. Note that in my bullet the jacket for the nose and boat tail are significantly thicker that a few tens of thou thick. They act more like a composite layer (with the core) than a jacket. Is everything that I have stated here reasonable???

    My question for this particular thread was aimed at asking which material would be best (again in terms of absolute performance and not "performance for its price" to use for the jacket of the cylinder section (since i believe it reasonable that it is the only part of the bullet that will be in actual physical contact with the rifling and thus the only part of the bullet available for rifling) and as such I am looking for the material which forms the best seal with less fouling than copper. I tend to present my threads and questions with ideas of my own (so that you can shoot them down (if the case requires it) with serious detailed science (rather than sarcasm) so that I can actually learn something).

    I apologize if I have become a nuisance to you. Since we obviously don''t gel well perhaps you could point me to someone else (on this forum or perhaps another forum entirely) who would actually be willing to help me.

    Thank you
    ChaosD.Ace
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    and the insult
    Insult?
    You wouldn't last 5 minutes in an engineering "discussion".
    We talk about observed facts, not feelings.
    If something's wrong it's wrong.
    Being "nice" doesn't fix it.

    For the record I tend to look for the absolute best performance rather then best performance "for its price".
    Then you're not doing engineering.

    I am (for further clarification) sectioning the jacket itself into three segments; the nose (which if i am correct acts as the penetrating surface of the bullet), the cylinder (acts to form the gas seal and engage the rifle by expanding into the grooves or in my case the polygonal rifling) and the boat tail, which for my bullet must be designed to resist deformation from the pressures and temperature so that it can retain its shape as much as possible for the sake of aerodynamics during external ballistics. Note that in my bullet the jacket for the nose and boat tail are significantly thicker that a few tens of thou thick. They act more like a composite layer (with the core) than a jacket. Is everything that I have stated here reasonable???
    Once again: It depends on whether you're intending the entire thing to penetrate or just the nose (which would only partially penetrate) while the rest just flattens on the surface of the armour. I know which is the preferred military option.

    My question for this particular thread was aimed at asking which material would be best (again in terms of absolute performance and not "performance for its price" to use for the jacket of the cylinder section (since i believe reasonable that it is the only part of the bullet that will be in actual physical contact with the rifling and thus the only part of the bullet available for rifling) and as such I am looking for the material which forms the best seal with less fouling than copper. I tend to present my threads and questions with ideas of my own (so that you can shoot them down (if the case requires it) with detailed science (rather than old fashioned sarcasm) so that I can actually learn something).
    Then, since, you're ignoring the real world why bother having a jacket at all?
    Just manufacture the bullet with the grooves pre-formed. Then you don't have to bother selecting material to deform into the rifling.
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    A full mag would be pretty heavy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Then you're not doing engineering.
    What am I doing then, R&D, this is just a fun project, not something I want to get out there as a business proposition. I am just trying to make a massively upgraded weapon for one person rather than making money off of equipping the entire army with slightly upgraded weapon. Not all concepts are pursued because they need to be, somethings are developed just because we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post

    Once again: It depends on whether you're intending the entire thing to penetrate or just the nose (which would only partially penetrate) while the rest just flattens on the surface of the armour. I know which is the preferred military option.
    Please clarify as to what exactly you mean here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Then, since, you're ignoring the real world why bother having a jacket at all?
    Just manufacture the bullet with the grooves pre-formed. Then you don't have to bother selecting material to deform into the rifling.
    I didn't know that would be better than an expanding metal when it comes to polygonal rifling.

    Hey flick, the bullets will not exceed 0.07 kilograms each, since they are .50 cals, that means , 7 rounds in one typical mag, which equals to a mag with a max weight of 0.49 kilograms. Don't know if that is too heavy for your taste.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    Please clarify as to what exactly you mean here?
    If you want all of the bullet to penetrate then all of the bullet needs to be of sufficient density/ strength.
    What isn't up to the task won't penetrate - it'll just make a smear on the face of the armour.

    I didn't know that would be better than an expanding metal when it comes to polygonal rifling.

    If you're having any deformation of the bullet material then that will absorb some of the energy imparted.A pre-shaped bullet will use more of the available energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    If you want all of the bullet to penetrate then all of the bullet needs to be of sufficient density/ strength.
    What isn't up to the task won't penetrate - it'll just make a smear on the face of the armour.
    So your saying that adding a very dense core wont make up for the less dense shell, even if the shell is mechanically stronger that the material it is attempting to penetrate. So the iridium core won't cary the rest of the bullet through the penetration even if the shell is more able to resist being deformed (including smearing) (and we are only talking about the nose here (since the nose will form a whole which the cylinder can pass through unperturbed.))

    And how come ScnemonePurchin was suspended, what did he say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    So your saying that adding a very dense core wont make up for the less dense shell
    What you're describing now is an APCR or APCNR round.
    What you previously described was "since it is soft would gold be a good metal for rifling a bullet (if the cylinder of the bullet were to be made of it)" and "the nose (which if i am correct acts as the penetrating surface of the bullet), the cylinder (acts to form the gas seal and engage the rifling by expanding into the grooves or in my case the polygonal rifling)" i.e. a soft body.
    (Or, if that's what you weren't explaining then you weren't explaining well enough: an idea in your head stays in your head until it's laid out in detail for others).

    even if the shell is mechanically stronger that the material it is attempting to penetrate. So the iridium core won't cary the rest of the bullet through the penetration even if the shell is more able to resist being deformed (including smearing) (and we are only talking about the nose here (since the nose will form a whole which the cylinder can pass through unperturbed.))
    If only the nose is dense enough then it likely won't have enough weight to fully penetrate - the body will scrunch up behind it, flatten out and act as a plug, because it's only a shell - and therefore not sufficiently rigid/ supported, not enough sectional density.

    And how come ScnemonePurchin was suspended, what did he say.
    Because
    A) he was a spamming dick, and
    B) he was most likely a sock-puppet. In fact he came back in another guise, managed two posts and got banned again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    So your saying that adding a very dense core wont make up for the less dense shell
    What you're describing now is an APCR or APCNR round.
    Nope those are not what I meant at all, we are talking about a normal bullet (in terms of shape here, with an ogive nose, boat tail etc.) This whole thread was based on attempting to ascertain if there was a metal better than copper in terms of performance alone BUT, since you said a pre-shaped bullet is better anyway, I'm sticking with that.

    Now I am going to use arbitrary values here so if you find them a bit off please don't crucify me. Lets say ~7% of the volume of the bullet is the shell. The iridium core (one of the densest elements, but also brittle) extends relatively uniformly throughout the whole length of the bullet, following the same shape as the bullet, I'll upload pictures tomorrow. The idea was to use a superalloy (known for their extremely high mechanical strengths, especially fracture and extreme temperature resistances) for the shell. The shell was supposed protect and to prevent or reduce shattering the iridium core, and in return the iridium core would give the bullet overall (as you said) high sectional density.
    Last edited by ChaosD.Ace; December 31st, 2013 at 11:21 PM.
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    Wouldn't silver be better? because silver bullets can kill all kinds of supernatural monsters, including vampires and lycanthropes (werewolves).
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    Wouldn't silver be better? because silver bullets can kill all kinds of supernatural monsters, including vampires and lycanthropes (werewolves).
    Silver isn't very dense compared to gold, and sectional density is important for penetration. I am using a preshaped cylinder now, so I won't be needing soft metals like gold or silver, but thanks for the reply.
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    The major parts of a projectile are called the ogive, the body and the base — that is, what you have been referring to as the nose, cylinder and base.

    The term ogive is pronounced OH-jyv — that is, the g is "soft", the o and i are "long", and the first syllable is stressed. The simplest definition of an ogive is a curved surface of revolution. Many ogives meet the body flush, that is, tangent to the body (otherwise it wound generate a shock wave in flight, which is undesirable). The simplest curve used is an arc of a circle, giving the projectile a pointed tip, commonly seen in rifle rounds, which is aerodynamically favorable at the supersonic speeds needed to pierce armor. An ellipsoid surface of revolution results in a rounded nose, commonly seen in pistol rounds, where supersonic performance isn't as critical as is, for example, jam-free autoloading.

    The term nose is ambiguous because it refers to any amount of the ogive starting at the tip, and it is commonly associated with the nose fuse, which often occupies a small part of the ogive.

    It's inefficient to accelerate the weight of the body up to muzzle velocity without it participating in the penetration, leaving only the ogive to penetrate. If you want a kinetic energy penetrator, consider a sabot round or a shaped charge. To punch a hole through the armor, the sabot round relies more on the density/mass of the penetrator, and the shaped charge relies more on the velocity of the penetrator.

    And don't under-estimate the effectiveness of a projectile that "splats" against armor. Consider the HESH round (HESH = High-Explosive Squash Head). The HESH round consists of the projectile's casing filled with explosives and a base fuse. This round purposely collapses/flattens onto the surface of the armor, and when the base fuse ignites the flattened explosive, the resulting shock wave propagates through the armor, causing fragments of the armor's inside surface to fly off. The fragments are called "spalls", and the fragmentation is called "spalling". If you're inside a tank and HESH rounds are causing the armor's interior surface to spall, you'll wish you were somewhere else.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    General note for ChaosD:
    I started learning this stuff at your age. And I made an effort.
    Some basic books you should have in your library (ideally personal library, but your local library should be able to get them for you).
    Guns! Guns! Guns! (or 3G3): yes it's a "supplement" for gamers 1, but it's cheap. And informative. And "tweakable".
    Military Ballistics: A Basic Manual: Brassey's tends to be considerably cheaper than Jane's, and therefore more readily available 2.
    Small Arms and Machine Guns: same as above.
    Design and Development of Fighting Vehicles: has a chapter on the mechanics of armour penetration.
    Technology of Tanks: Vols 1-2: has an extensive chapter on penetration mechanics - considerably more in-depth than the previous book (it's essentially a second edition of Design and Development, but that doesn't even hint at how much more useful and thorough it is). And yes the price listed is correct. £600 for (a pair of) second-hand books. That should give you some idea of A) how rare hard information is and B) how dedicated genuine nerds are at obtaining that information 3.


    1 Not that that's a bad thing - never underestimate the innate nerdiness of gamers or the lengths they're prepared to go to for accuracy.
    2 And if you visit any of the UK defence shows (Farnboro' etc.) you can usually get them at a discount.
    3 I.e. shotgun random questions and wild speculation on the internet aren't going to cut it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  29. #28  
    Forum Sophomore ChaosD.Ace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrmonroe View Post
    The major parts of a projectile are called the ogive, the body and the base — that is, what you have been referring to as the nose, cylinder and base.

    What about conical bullets, spherical bullets, wadcutters, is it fair to use the term ogive even though that is not an accurate description.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I started learning this stuff at your age. And I made an effort.
    Are you saying I don't make an effort. I have started reading a thesis that describes penetration mechanics and presents different models for penetration depth estimation. http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-02232009-044403/unrestricted/Master_Thesis_Yu_ZHOU_905157660_CEE.pdf

    I
    've skimmed over it and it presents some interesting statistical, and theoretical models for penetration. I am trying to read in more depth now.

    I've already got The technology of Tanks, although I haven't read it yet since this project has got nothing whatsoever to do with tanks, these bullets will not be fired at or from tanks. The only relevant chapter in here is 15 Armour Protection. I am still designing an infantry semi-auto pistol to be used in urban combat.

    Thanks a lot for the other suggestions, I'll have a look at them.

    Not sure about Guns! Guns! Guns!. What exactly is that for, I'm not designing a weapon for a game. Rather I have been inspired by a game, and as a result am designing an equivalent in real life, and it's not some crazy unrealistic gun like a phaser.

    I should indeed start presenting the idea as a whole rather than just asking about small parts of it. Your completely right in that.
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  30. #29  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    I've already got The technology of Tanks, although I haven't read it yet
    Not sure about Guns! Guns! Guns!. What exactly is that for, I'm not designing a weapon for a game
    Back onto the ignore list...
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  31. #30  
    Forum Sophomore ChaosD.Ace's Avatar
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    Okay, have a good evening.
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  32. #31  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    reminds me of this by Chris Rock (NSFW Language)

    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
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  33. #32  
    Forum Sophomore ChaosD.Ace's Avatar
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    What suit?
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  34. #33  
    Forum Sophomore ChaosD.Ace's Avatar
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    Which project do you refer to? my gun?
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  35. #34  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaosD.Ace View Post
    What about conical bullets, spherical bullets, wadcutters, is it fair to use the term ogive even though that is not an accurate description.
    I would say that anything forward of the body is the ogive. "Spherical" definitely fits the description of ogive in the purist sense. I don't see any problem with having conical or wadcutter ogives. There's secant ogives that approximate conical. Speaking of conical, an abrupt change where the ogive meets the body will cause a shock wave.

    Modeling penetration is really difficult.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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