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Thread: a new fuel source? Hydrogen engines

  1. #1 a new fuel source? Hydrogen engines 
    Forum Freshman mobious's Avatar
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    Why couldn't we take preexisting engines and convert them to run on hydrogen?

    Here's my idea that a few of my friends and I are beginning to try.

    What if we take a standard gasoline engine and convert it to run on hydrogen. the fuel source would be water, easy to obtain and inexpensive. we put that in the fuel tank and then through a process known as electrolysis we separate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atoms. we can then store these gases in air tanks via compressors retrofitted with some scuba valves (the exact name of them escapes me at the moment) for later use. we then inject the hydrogen gas into the pistons like we would a normal fuel mixture. The best part? the exhaust is water vapor, so we can collect that to use as fuel.

    Some other ideas for this car is to put some small solar panels on the roof hooked up a battery bank to create and store the energy needed to perform electrolysis.
    and as of yet i haven't come up with an idea on how to collect the exhaust from the combustion but it would have to include a way to cool the water vapor down so it ends up back in a liquid state when it re-enters the fuel tank.

    Please post some ideas or comments.

    Thanks!

    ~Mobious


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  3. #2  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    Now you have the idea mobious. You are my kind of Member. Get your hands dirty, put your thinking cap on, get stuck in. I s their any energy to be recovered from urine? Some Chemical additive to Urine making it volatile? Perhaps condensing urine in a electrolysis process and enriching with combustable methane? westwind.


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  4. #3  
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    Hydrogen is created by using fossil fuels. They take methane or gas, and due to a chemical reaction they create hydrogen out of it. I bet you believe me when i say this is anything BUT efficient.

    The hydrolysis variant of creating hydrogen is prefered by me, but this has the problems of heating the reservoir, which simply is lost energy. Also electricity (spark), and hydrogen, in any combination with oxygen, don't really mix well (safety wise).

    Petrolium from algae, in fuel cells. That will probably be the future.

    With your cooling problem, don't worry, a radiator will cool enough to let most of the water condense. the lost 20% can be simply filled once in a while.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  5. #4  
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    Water is not a fuel. It would take more energy to create the hydrogen than you would get back out. The piddling amount of energy you would get from the solar collector on a car roof would be nearly useless.
    Hydrogen is a bulky and inefficient means of energy storage. It has low volumetric density, and would require a heavy pressure vessel to achieve the pressure needed to store a sufficient quantity. This makes it quite inefficient.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    It would take more energy to create the hydrogen than you would get back out.
    Exactly.

    Whatever energy source you are using for the electrolysis would be more effectively used to drive electric motors.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  7. #6  
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    He probably meant to find a way out to store the potential energy. Capacitors and batteries will do the trick. ...
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman mobious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Water is not a fuel. It would take more energy to create the hydrogen than you would get back out. The piddling amount of energy you would get from the solar collector on a car roof would be nearly useless.
    Hydrogen is a bulky and inefficient means of energy storage. It has low volumetric density, and would require a heavy pressure vessel to achieve the pressure needed to store a sufficient quantity. This makes it quite inefficient.
    Water isn't the fuel, the hydrogen in the water is. And the solar collector would just help to get energy for the electrolysis, current cars only use 20% of the energy their alternators put out, we could use some of that wasted energy to power the electrolysis. And about the heavy pressure vessel, i know thats a problem, but it can be worked around. using air compressors retrofitted with scuba equipment to make it airtight may work effectively to compress and store the gases and then later transfer them to the engine pistons. and since i haven't done any experimenting with this yet, the inefficiency you are talking about may be avoidable. I'd have to check for myself to be sure. But even if it is, a hydrogen engine would be a cleaner alternative to standard gasoline engines. and hydrogen is much more flammable than gasoline, so if we used the same amount of it as gas, we would get more energy in return.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    current cars only use 20% of the energy their alternators put out, we could use some of that wasted energy to power the electrolysis.
    I'm not quite sure what this means (or where you get the 20% from). If you mean that they are only 20% efficient (very unlikely) thn you would need to find a way of increasing the efficiency before you have any extra energy. If you mean that only 20% of what the alternator is capable of generating, then the problem is that if you take more power from it you will increase the load on the engine and hence the fuel consumption. TANSTAAFL.

    And about the heavy pressure vessel, i know thats a problem
    It is, perhaps, the biggest problem for hydrogen powered vehicles.

    hydrogen is much more flammable than gasoline
    But it has much lower energy density.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    Water isn't the fuel, the hydrogen in the water is. And the solar collector would just help to get energy for the electrolysis,
    No, you are not getting it. The electrical energy used for hydrolysis does not "help" get the energy. It is the energy. And because of the inefficiencies, you will get less energy from the hydrogen than you put into it.
    current cars only use 20% of the energy their alternators put out, we could use some of that wasted energy to power the electrolysis.
    I don't know if that's true or not. There will be a certain amount of trickle current needed to keep the battery charged, which probably uses a lot of the output of the alternator. Do you want to keep the battery charged? What is your plan for conserving the electricity?
    a hydrogen engine would be a cleaner alternative to standard gasoline engines.
    That is a huge assumption. To serve as a cleaner alternative, your idea has to actually be workable, which I don't think it is.
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  11. #10  
    Forum Freshman mobious's Avatar
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    well, apparently BMW had the same idea of a hydrogen vehicle. BMW Hydrogen 7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia BMW EfficientDynamics : BMW CleanEnergy
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  12. #11  
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    Yes, many people are looking at hydrogen fuelled vehicles. And many other alternatives.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  13. #12  
    Forum Freshman mobious's Avatar
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    but even with some of the things you guys are pointing out, remember this. No idea is perfect the first time. That's why we have a word called "revisions" and another called "prototype"
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    but even with some of the things you guys are pointing out, remember this. No idea is perfect the first time. That's why we have a word called "revisions" and another called "prototype"
    We also have words called "engineering" and "calculation," so before you build your "prototype" it would be best to have some idea what to expect.
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  15. #14  
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    There are some other words called the Laws of Thermodynamics. Mobius should look them up.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    but even with some of the things you guys are pointing out, remember this. No idea is perfect the first time. That's why we have a word called "revisions" and another called "prototype"
    That sounds like an excuse for not doing any thinking in advance. From your posts, it's clear that you don't have a very firm grasp of the relevant principles.

    Hydrogen-fueled vehicles have been studied for a very long time. What's very clear is that we don't have a practical way to get hydrogen. We don't have hydrogen wells, for example, so we have to liberate hydrogen from the compounds -- like water -- in which it is bound. That takes energy. And the laws of thermodynamics tell us that we will have to spend more energy to free the hydrogen than we wil get back from burning the hydrogen.

    So where are we going to get this energy? Today we burn fossil fuels! Well, you say, then let's use solar! Ok, but do some homework: With a 1kW/sq. m. insolation (and I'm being generous; I think the average value is little more than half that), compute the rate at which you can electrolyze water if you could achieve 100% efficiency in the electrolysis.

    Then do a google search for the rate of fossil fuel consumption for the country of your choice. Next compute how many sq. meters of solar collection area you will need to produce hydrogen at the rate needed to meet that consumption demand.

    Next, do a google search for methods of storing and transporting hydrogen. How much volume will you need for a car to maintain a driving range of, say 500km?

    and on it goes. You can calculate quite a lot. Cut-and-try is expensive, so doing a little thinking in advance can save quite a bit of grief and expense.

    There is, sadly, no free lunch.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Freshman mobious's Avatar
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    well everyone, you guys have given me a lot to think about. This had just been an idea I had but know i see this idea needs a lot of work. I really appreciate your guys' opinions and some of the (constructive?) criticism, even if i don't agree with it. so thanks a bunch!

    ~mobious
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    Some interesting info about the BMW hydrogen car here. Road Testing BMW's Hydrogen 7
    BMW's Hydrogen 7: Not as Green as it Seems - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    The car runs on liquid hydrogen or gasoline and has an insulated fuel tank for the hydrogen which takes up half the trunk. The hydrogen will lift a relief valve and start boiling off after about 17 hours and will be completely empty after 10 to 12 days. Because of the potential for releasing hydrogen, it can't be kept indoors. It has a cruising range of about 125 miles on hydrogen, getting about 7 miles per gallon, due to the low energy density of hydrogen. The hydrogen is made using fossil fuel generated electricity, and due to the inefficiency of the process, the car actually creates more pollution than an equivalent gasoline powered vehicle.
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  19. #18  
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    I do like the idea of solar powered zeppelins.. They would be nearly squeaky clean. There is a parking problem though. Where to put a 35meter long, 7 meter wide, zeppelin? Deflation isn't an option there...
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    I do like the idea of solar powered zeppelins.. They would be nearly squeaky clean. There is a parking problem though. Where to put a 35meter long, 7 meter wide, zeppelin? Deflation isn't an option there...
    not to mention zeppelins aren't the fastest thing around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    What if we take a standard gasoline engine and convert it to run on hydrogen. the fuel source would be water, easy to obtain and inexpensive. we put that in the fuel tank and then through a process known as electrolysis we separate the hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atoms.
    Steam Reforming > You

    Quote Originally Posted by mobious View Post
    we can then store these gases in air tanks via compressors retrofitted with some scuba valves (the exact name of them escapes me at the moment) for later use. we then inject the hydrogen gas into the pistons like we would a normal fuel mixture. The best part? the exhaust is water vapor, so we can collect that to use as fuel.
    Hydrogen pistons? LOL

    Ok dude, here's how it works when it comes to hydrogen and vehicles. FUEL CELLS! Again: FUEL CELLS! Again in green: FUEL CELLS!!!!!

    You don't have fuel cell, hydrogen can be used for masturbation purposes. I am saving you alot of future embarassement so remember it. And no water splitting dude...you're not on fucking Mars. We have reformers.

    One way to solve the compression problem is to use LiBH4 instead of a hydrogen tank but that's fkn expensive atm.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Some interesting info about the BMW hydrogen car here. Road Testing BMW's Hydrogen 7
    BMW's Hydrogen 7: Not as Green as it Seems - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    The car runs on liquid hydrogen or gasoline and has an insulated fuel tank for the hydrogen which takes up half the trunk. The hydrogen will lift a relief valve and start boiling off after about 17 hours and will be completely empty after 10 to 12 days. Because of the potential for releasing hydrogen, it can't be kept indoors. It has a cruising range of about 125 miles on hydrogen, getting about 7 miles per gallon, due to the low energy density of hydrogen. The hydrogen is made using fossil fuel generated electricity, and due to the inefficiency of the process, the car actually creates more pollution than an equivalent gasoline powered vehicle.
    I wouldn't feel very safe driving that vehicle. Many types of accidents could rip the tank open and put the fiery movie accidents to shame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Some interesting info about the BMW hydrogen car here. Road Testing BMW's Hydrogen 7
    BMW's Hydrogen 7: Not as Green as it Seems - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    The car runs on liquid hydrogen or gasoline and has an insulated fuel tank for the hydrogen which takes up half the trunk. The hydrogen will lift a relief valve and start boiling off after about 17 hours and will be completely empty after 10 to 12 days. Because of the potential for releasing hydrogen, it can't be kept indoors. It has a cruising range of about 125 miles on hydrogen, getting about 7 miles per gallon, due to the low energy density of hydrogen. The hydrogen is made using fossil fuel generated electricity, and due to the inefficiency of the process, the car actually creates more pollution than an equivalent gasoline powered vehicle.
    I wouldn't feel very safe driving that vehicle. Many types of accidents could rip the tank open and put the fiery movie accidents to shame.
    Ya, I'm not comfortable driving with a timebomb under my dick either. My opinion is that hydrogen is rocket fuel and thus, it should only be used in rockets.
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    [QUOTE=Oxycodone;353769]I certainly hope you grow up and figure out how to speak like a civil adult during your suspension; next time it will be a ban.
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  25. #24  
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    Energy needed to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is theoretically equal to (but in practical reality more than) energy yielded when hydrogen and oxygen recombine - if burned in a highly inefficient internal combustion engine (ICE) that will be a lot less energy. The electrical output of a car's alternator won't be enough to run a car's starter motor, let alone push the car after most of that energy is lost in the processes of splitting water, compressing the hydrogen and burning it inefficiently in an ICE. And the load on the engine to run that alternator - and fuel consumed by that - will exceed any electrical output, and far exceed any hydrogen output of an attached electrolyser. More politely put than Oxycodone, the use of fuel cells is a more efficient way to use hydrogen to push a car than an ICE but the source of hydrogen is critical to overall efficiency and whole of process emissions. I believe there are some promising developments for making electrolysis more efficient and potentially bypass fossil fuels as the source of hydrogen.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Fabos View Post
    Energy needed to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is theoretically equal to (but in practical reality more than) energy yielded when hydrogen and oxygen recombine - if burned in a highly inefficient internal combustion engine (ICE) that will be a lot less energy. The electrical output of a car's alternator won't be enough to run a car's starter motor, let alone push the car after most of that energy is lost in the processes of splitting water, compressing the hydrogen and burning it inefficiently in an ICE. And the load on the engine to run that alternator - and fuel consumed by that - will exceed any electrical output, and far exceed any hydrogen output of an attached electrolyser. More politely put than Oxycodone, the use of fuel cells is a more efficient way to use hydrogen to push a car than an ICE but the source of hydrogen is critical to overall efficiency and whole of process emissions. I believe there are some promising developments for making electrolysis more efficient and potentially bypass fossil fuels as the source of hydrogen.
    Yeah, but the companies won't stop using fossil fuels until it's ALL gone... I hope you understand that. And creating hydrogen from methane is preferred to these companies... don't understand, and don't want to eiter, they dislike the idea of people using anything renewable.

    This is why solar panels cost a Gazillion euro's, to make. I mean, i can make a supercheap one (ineffectively though), for 100 euro's... Which has the same capacity as an expensive one, at 40.000 euro's, created by those companies. The drawback of mine, is that it's 3 times bigger, and 5 times heavier..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Yeah, but the companies won't stop using fossil fuels until it's ALL gone... I hope you understand that. ..
    No. They won't stop making such cars until we stop buying them. Don't blame some amorphous they. You (and I) are the responsible parties.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Yeah, but the companies won't stop using fossil fuels until it's ALL gone... I hope you understand that. ..
    No. They won't stop making such cars until we stop buying them. Don't blame some amorphous they. You (and I) are the responsible parties.
    Ok, your partly true.. But i was mainly pointing out the part of the fossil fuels. It would be inefficient to stop, and switch to a more expensive fuel..
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  29. #28  
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    The fuel is only more expensive in the short term. Factor in environmental damage and it is already apparent we can't afford them.
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  30. #29  
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    One may arrive at hydrogen fuel from the supply side, too: Some regions have enormous potential to cleanly generate electricity, e.g. hydroelectric, but are so remote we only use them for aluminum smelting. The problem is in making that locally cheap energy useful globally. Besides shipping such energy-intensive processes to these remote regions, we could "bottle" their energy and ship it to the big consumers, e.g. gas stations worldwide.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    One may arrive at hydrogen fuel from the supply side, too: Some regions have enormous potential to cleanly generate electricity, e.g. hydroelectric, but are so remote we only use them for aluminum smelting. The problem is in making that locally cheap energy useful globally. Besides shipping such energy-intensive processes to these remote regions, we could "bottle" their energy and ship it to the big consumers, e.g. gas stations worldwide.
    Nice idea, but when you start looking at the size of the containers and the energy density of hydrogen, it doesn't work as well as you would think.
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    Yes, Skeptic already convinced me it is better next converted to methane. Just the same, energy is best collected from those places where it's sustainable and most plentiful, then shipped to markets much as OPEC countries do now.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    [QUOTE=MeteorWayne;353896]
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxycodone View Post

    I certainly hope you grow up and figure out how to speak like a civil adult during your suspension; next time it will be a ban.
    Finally, hahaha…I was wondering how this whole thing would end. You guys took longer than the other ones, maybe due to the low forum traffic. What a wonderful life experience this is to see your reaction. Ban! Very poetic. If by “ban” you mean disabling this account, ip, e-mail and user name, it’s not really a ban. If I believed you could ban me, would I be doing this?

    Let me explain: What I have created is a conflict. When a conflict arises, people react in 2 different ways:

    1. Some believe something is wrong with other people, so they try to fix them, like you tried to fix me with the suspension, because you thought there was something wrong with me.
    2. Others believe there is something wrong with them, and so they try to fix themselves, like going into the admin settings and censoring inappropriate phrases like dick, penis and masturbation.

    I am simply trying to make the forum evolve. Bad words are not censored, thus, your forum has a problem. When your forum has a problem, the users have a problem, so it is therefore my duty as a user to warn you about those problems.

    Well, receive this as a lesson, I am happy to teach. And no, I will not stop using the words dick, penis and…masturbation, so you will have to disable them manually in the admin box, and keep my useful contribution to the forum. Or, you can try to ban me, lose my useful contribution and be subject to whatever caused the last forum I’ve been on to disable account registration for all users worldwide.
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    This is a science forum. Why would penis and masturbation be inappropriate terms?

    So, who do you think you are exactly? We have been functioning happily for many years. The only problem we have is people like you who actually go out of their way to try and be inappropriate. A ban is effective for that, usually. Your philosophy of limiting people as much as possible is ridiculous. We have a history of being open to tackling controversial topics others would close immediately, though we still try to maintain a minimum level of common decency.

    So, the question again: who do you think you are? Why would you presume we need teaching and that you are the one to teach us? We don't need that and we don't need you. You are pretty critical of religion, yet here you are trying to force your own sensibilities onto a large group of people under threat. Don't you see the hypocrisy?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxycodone View Post
    I am simply trying to make the forum evolve. Bad words are not censored, thus, your forum has a problem. When your forum has a problem, the users have a problem, so it is therefore my duty as a user to warn you about those problems.
    Your trying to make the forum evolve... This isn't pokemon, hope you know that.. There is no way to force evolution otherwise.

    Use Oxycostone on Forum,

    Forum is evolving.

    Congratulations, your forum evolved into Loadofnonsense
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxycodone View Post
    I am simply trying to make the forum evolve.
    The forum can evolve by weeding out the most unfit members. I think you are trying for the Darwin award.
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  37. #36  
    ***** Participant Write4U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Some interesting info about the BMW hydrogen car here. Road Testing BMW's Hydrogen 7
    BMW's Hydrogen 7: Not as Green as it Seems - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    The car runs on liquid hydrogen or gasoline and has an insulated fuel tank for the hydrogen which takes up half the trunk. The hydrogen will lift a relief valve and start boiling off after about 17 hours and will be completely empty after 10 to 12 days. Because of the potential for releasing hydrogen, it can't be kept indoors. It has a cruising range of about 125 miles on hydrogen, getting about 7 miles per gallon, due to the low energy density of hydrogen. The hydrogen is made using fossil fuel generated electricity, and due to the inefficiency of the process, the car actually creates more pollution than an equivalent gasoline powered vehicle.
    Chicken feathers are an excellent hydrogen collector, seriously..
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    One may arrive at hydrogen fuel from the supply side, too: Some regions have enormous potential to cleanly generate electricity, e.g. hydroelectric, but are so remote we only use them for aluminum smelting. The problem is in making that locally cheap energy useful globally. Besides shipping such energy-intensive processes to these remote regions, we could "bottle" their energy and ship it to the big consumers, e.g. gas stations worldwide.
    Actually aluminium smelters can also be used as giant batteries, seriously.
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  39. #38  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxycodone View Post
    [Or, you can try to ban me, lose my useful contribution and be subject to whatever caused the last forum Ive been on to disable account registration for all users worldwide.
    Is that a threat?
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  40. #39  
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    I have a serious question. If we generate hydrogen from sea water, using solar energy, in places where both are available, how efficient does the process need to be? Both the source materials are free. Our energy producing station could be a barge floating in a tropic sea. I visualize it as a grass root level enterprize, like a family farm. A family lives on the barge under an array of solar collectors which generate a small steady electrical current used to produce hydrogen which they store and periodicly sell to an energy company. You would probably also use the barge as an aquaculture base, maybe growing oysters or other farmable sea life.

    Alternatively your hydrogen farm could be on land near a torpic shore. Once you are out of sight of the tourist infested beach many tropic resort areas have cheap undeveloped but sun rich land and swamp located within a couple miles of a vast source of water. Many tropic islands now have to import, at serious expense, all their fuels. Locally produced hydrogen may well be a viable alternative to fossil fuels that have to be imported.

    The storage and transportation problems are just engineering issues. Metal hydrides are one solution to the storage issue.

    Hydrogen may well be much safer than gasoline. Spilled hydrogen disipates so fast it will not easily support a flame. One group trying to adapt home gas appliances to hydrogen use had to pack the area arround the gas burners on the gas stove with stainless steel wool in order to slow the disipation of hydrogen enough so it would burn. This worked and had the advantage that the red glowing steel wool was visible and a hydrogen flame generally is not.
    westwind likes this.
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  41. #40  
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    The principle difficulties migth revolve around economy. If there were mature systems in place I can see that this would work, but there are not. Yes, any one component may be said to be mature, but the combination, especially when targeting a small scale, local enterprise. SO to make it workl would require massive inestment as seed money. No impossible, but problematic.
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  42. #41  
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    This is soo promising

    NOVA | Making Stuff: Series Overview

    We're beginning to think about our trash and return stuff back to nature.
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    We're beginning to think about our trash and return stuff back to nature.
    The company I work for is environmentally oriented: all of our employees are fully biodegradable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sealeaf View Post
    I have a serious question. If we generate hydrogen from sea water, using solar energy, in places where both are available, how efficient does the process need to be? Both the source materials are free. Our energy producing station could be a barge floating in a tropic sea. I visualize it as a grass root level enterprize, like a family farm. A family lives on the barge under an array of solar collectors which generate a small steady electrical current used to produce hydrogen which they store and periodicly sell to an energy company. You would probably also use the barge as an aquaculture base, maybe growing oysters or other farmable sea life.
    The area covered by a barge is not enough to produce any significant amount of fuel. The hydrogen station has to be productive enough to pay for the barge and the solar equipment over its operating lifetime, as well as supply the energy requirements and pay the salary of the operating crew. You also have to pay the transportation costs to get the hydrogen to market. Try doing some number crunching yourself and see if you can make it work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oxycodone View Post
    [Or, you can try to ban me, lose my useful contribution and be subject to whatever caused the last forum I’ve been on to disable account registration for all users worldwide.
    Is that a threat?
    Threat, of course not. I am a pacifist I don't walk around threatening people, I use peaceful methods, like long cat! It's cute, and family friendly, except that...long cat can be...very long.
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  46. #45  
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    Bye,Oxy. and good ridance.
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  47. #46  
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    Forget old technology and have a look at quantum vacuum plasma thrusters

    Get this in your car and see the universe.
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  48. #47  
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    The production of hydrogen fuel from the electrical output of an internal combustion driven generator running on hydrogen fuel is nonsensical - requiring the laws of conservation of energy to be violated - but this solar to hydrogen cell is an interesting development and even if only 3.6% efficient, at $80 per square metre it's cost looks in the realms of usable. Reliability and cost of system over operating life? who knows. Not suited to running a vehicle but for a home or business, where onsite storage doesn't have to be long term or at high levels of compression, it could be quite good for heating, cooking, hot water.
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  49. #48 free generating energy 
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    what about free generating energy? i mean it wouldn't take alot of resources to make one
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  50. #49  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleyeyUNDERSTANDABLE View Post
    what about free generating energy? i mean it wouldn't take alot of resources to make one
    What is "free generating energy"?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  51. #50  
    Forum Ph.D. merumario's Avatar
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    i second strange's question.
    "I am sorry for making this letter longer than usual.I actually lacked the time to make it shorter."###
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    Quote Originally Posted by simpleyeyUNDERSTANDABLE View Post
    what about free generating energy? i mean it wouldn't take alot of resources to make one
    BINGO, its allready made and tested, however its 100% CO2 recycle and no burning takes place just heating above -10* Celius is needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by simpleyeyUNDERSTANDABLE View Post
    what about free generating energy? i mean it wouldn't take alot of resources to make one
    What is "free generating energy"?
    May be taken as not purchased. Supplied for free by nature or climate. Suplied for free by the device taking in energy and giving more energy out, such as in over unity.
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  54. #53  
    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
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    Hydrogen fueled cars have already been made.

    "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    Sir Isaac Newton

    In my own opinion there is no greater mathematical Principle than that which is x - x = 0. This shows that matter can be created from nothing as long as the total product of the matter's mass & energy equal exactly zero.
    The only question is, "Where did all that antimatter go?"

    Favourite Elements: Sodium, Neodymium, Xenon
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  55. #54  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaS Energy View Post
    Suplied for free by the device taking in energy and giving more energy out, such as in over unity.
    Ah, a fantasy then.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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