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View Poll Results: is there a difference between zero and infinity??

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Thread: is there a difference between zero and infinity??

  1. #1 is there a difference between zero and infinity?? 
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    Hi. I was thinking the other day and realised that both something that doesnt exist ( 0 ) and infinity have no boundaries. Please tell me if you know more about this.


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    Only something which has no boundaries can become infinity.


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    i was thinking also that 0 could be greater than infinity. My logic to this is that the measurement infinity, in the universe, expands infinitely in 1 direction from a certain point from where it began. But something that doesn't exist ( 0 ) doesn't start from a certain point and would expand infinitely in both directions. If that is true that means 0 is larger than infinity (two times maybe?).

    the direction it expands upon is the axis of time.
    nothing has no time, it does not change.


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  5. #4  
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    heard about nullity?
    its a theory proclaimed to solve divisions by zero.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    Quote Originally Posted by origin_of_existence
    i was thinking also that 0 could be greater than infinity. My logic to this is that the measurement infinity, in the universe, expands infinitely in 1 direction from a certain point from where it began. But something that doesn't exist ( 0 ) doesn't start from a certain point and would expand infinitely in both directions. If that is true that means 0 is larger than infinity (two times maybe?).

    the direction it expands upon is the axis of time.
    nothing has no time, it does not change.


    -aidan
    So what you are saying is that a "nothing" is an N-dimensional dot (n = infinity), since it has no boundries in any direction. But the definition of an n-dimensional dot is actually that it is a series of lower dimensional dots that makes out this dot, since elseways it wouldn't be an n-dimensional dot and if the n-dimensional dot moved, then it would be n+1 dimensional, which break the rules. Hence the universe is an n-dimensional dot.
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  7. #6 zero has bounderies, infinity doesnt. 
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    Zero is calcuable. Infinity isnt.
    The hand of time rested on the half-hour mark, and all along that old front line of the English there came a whistling and a crying. The men of the first wave climbed up the parapets, in tumult, darkness, and the presence of death, and having done with all pleasant things, advanced across No Man's Land to begin the Battle of the Somme. - Poet John Masefield.

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  8. #7  
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    mathematics is just a representation, there is no such thing as numbers, it is just something we use to show and calculate amounts. So if you have nothing of something and you also have an infinite amount something there has to be a difference, a universe with infinite mass is different to a universe with 0 mass, granted both are impossible but it's the represenation using figurs and words in maths
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  9. #8  
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    Infinity is not a number it is a concept.
    Zero is not a concept, it is a value.

    You are comparing apples and pears.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Infinity is not a number it is a concept.
    Zero is not a concept, it is a value.

    You are comparing apples and pears.
    i agree but they are related

    1/0=infinite
    1/infinite=0
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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  11. #10  
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    Apples and pears are both fruit.
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  12. #11  
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    now thats a clever answer XD
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    1/0=infinite
    1/infinite=0
    I should point out that 1/0 is not infinity. It's undefined
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  14. #13  
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    lim(a -> 0) 1/a = infinite
    since as a goes toward 0 the expression goes toward infinite
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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  15. #14  
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    What if instead of 1/(1/2)..1(1/3)...1(1/4) you have 1/(-1/2), 1/(-1/3), 1/(-1/4)? All of a sudden your limit is not heading towards infinity anymore.
    So what's the answer, infinity or negative infinity?
    Division by zero is undefined, not infinity.
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  16. #15  
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    i see no problem with negative infinite
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  17. #16  
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    Me either, but if you want 1/0 = infinity then you have to allow 1/0 = neg. infinity also. They are not the same thing, yet 1/0 = both? I'm sure there are other great examples as well, but the fact remains that 1/0 is undefined, not infinity (or negative infinity)
    Another thing is infinity is not a real number and you can't treat it as such.
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  18. #17  
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    1/0=infinite
    -1/0=-infinite
    seems logical to me

    infinite is defined as a number greater than any other number possible to think of. in QM you calculate with infinite distance xD
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  19. #18  
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    "Negative" is a mathematical concept, there is nothing that can exist as a negative of itself. There are many things however that can be of the opposite polarity, but this is NOT 'negative'.
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  20. #19  
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    what if negative is what everything is and posetive is the thing everyhthing isnt
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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  21. #20  
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    That's just a matter of swapping definitions then :P
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  22. #21  
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    yeah i know, im just bieng a philosophical bastard now
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    what if negative is what everything is and posetive is the thing everyhthing isnt
    You mean like you're always so bloody negative whereas we are the opposite - could be!
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  24. #23  
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    I am very posetive to life
    i just dont like bieng tricked
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    "Negative" is a mathematical concept,
    Ha! Well, my car has a reverse gear, hasn't yours? And when I go shopping, I generally expect change. Do I say to the cashier "Ho, change is just a mathematical concept"? You might.....
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarist
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    "Negative" is a mathematical concept,
    Ha! Well, my car has a reverse gear, hasn't yours? And when I go shopping, I generally expect change. Do I say to the cashier "Ho, change is just a mathematical concept"? You might.....
    Oh you get negative money for change eh? - can you print a picture of a minus 10 dollar bill?

    It's a positive quantity in exchange for a positive quantity, and well you know it!

    Your car is not going negative, it's just going in a different direction.

    8)
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  27. #26  
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    i can ahve negative money, that means i owe someone else money
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain

    Oh you get negative money for change eh? - can you print a picture of a minus 10 dollar bill?
    No, of course not, but I can print a picture of a $10 - $5 bill. (How clever of you to guess I'm a forger by trade!)

    It's a positive quantity in exchange for a positive quantity
    Ya, again, of course, but we arrive at that positive quantity by applying the intuitive principle that if 5 + 5 = 10, therefore 10 - 5 = 5. You will of course notice the "-5" in there. If you think this is "mere mathematics", then salute all till girls (and boys) for their mathematical profundity.
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  29. #28  
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    Yeah but there's still no negative, it's +10 take away +5 to leave +5!

    It is not a negative, show me a box that contains -5 apples, not relative to a greater number but relative to zero - there is no such thing as a negative quantity, it is purely a mathematical tool - now behave yourself!
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    1/0=infinite
    -1/0=-infinite
    seems logical to me

    infinite is defined as a number greater than any other number possible to think of. in QM you calculate with infinite distance xD
    0 does not have sign, and that's the end of that fairytale.
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  31. #30  
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    i didnt say 0 had a sign, 0 is sign less. but what i did change sign on was on 1

    It is not a negative, show me a box that contains -5 apples, not relative to a greater number but relative to zero - there is no such thing as a negative quantity, it is purely a mathematical tool - now behave yourself!
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    it is purely a mathematical tool - now behave yourself!
    Not in my nature, I'm afraid, my moderate friend.

    Here. Give me a definition of zero that doesn't invoke the concept of negativity. And "no things" doesn't cut it (you do know why, don't pretend - it's tautological).

    Silly thread, anyway.
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  33. #32  
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    Zero - a number depicting the absence of a quantity,

    ie the only number that is not a quantity.

    The point of origin of cardinal numbers.

    or the reference point of all numbers.

    Zero - My bank balance.
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Zero - a number depicting the absence of a quantity,
    Tautology.

    ie the only number that is not a quantity.
    Numbers are not "quantities"

    The point of origin of cardinal numbers.

    or the reference point of all numbers.
    Arbitrary choice, origin could be anywhere of our choosing.

    Zero - My bank balance.
    And your overdraft? What value, to you, would you assign to it? Anyway, 10 quid any good to you, till pay-day?
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  35. #34  
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    0 is he mean IQ of humanity XD
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarist
    The point of origin of cardinal numbers.

    or the reference point of all numbers.
    Arbitrary choice, origin could be anywhere of our choosing.
    However you dress it up, or ridicule dictionay definitions, it you still cannot show me minus 5 apples relative to zero.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain

    However you dress it up, or ridicule dictionay definitions,
    Hey, man, you offended? If so, sorry, but it's such a silly thread I was having a tease. No offense intended.
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  38. #37  
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    Not offended in the least, I'm bored as well at the moment, there has not been a good thread here for yonks.
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  39. #38  
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    where the hell is the crackpots when you need them?
    Mike NS
    Martillo
    and others are crackpots but they sure are fun dealing with
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  40. #39  
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    OK zelos boil over this one

    0/0 = 1 - true or false?
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  41. #40  
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    Hehe. It's tralse (or do I mean frue?) Go to "the Hospital" to see why. (It's an in-joke - this is a math forum, isn't it?)
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarist
    Hehe. It's tralse (or do I mean frue?) Go to "the Hospital" to see why. (It's an in-joke - this is a math forum, isn't it?)
    WTF are you smoking man?
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  43. #42  
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    Lee & Perrins - great buzz!

    Seriously, look up "l'Hopital's rule" and "indeterminant forms" you'll see the joke (one hopes)

    Puff - great shit, this L & P.....
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  45. #44  
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    Got that, nice find. Although I don't pray, for intelligent life or anything else, I do continue to hope. As your clip says, bugger all hope down here. Oh well, back to the bottle, I guess (that's Lee & Perrins, by the way. Hic)

    Now, can we please do some maths, is this too much to expect from a math forum?
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevyn
    mathematics is just a representation, there is no such thing as numbers, it is just something we use to show and calculate amounts. So if you have nothing of something and you also have an infinite amount something there has to be a difference, a universe with infinite mass is different to a universe with 0 mass, granted both are impossible but it's the represenation using figurs and words in maths
    Math is just a representation in our heads? No such thing as numbers except in our heads? This is the philosophy of the mathematical intuitionists....But it doesn't work with actual modern mathematics, which assumes the existence things like expanded infinite sets and things which exist but are unknown.
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  47. #46  
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    Go ask Godel's incompleteness theroem!
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbie
    Go ask Godel's incompleteness theroem!
    Which one?
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  49. #48  
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    Yes there is, Infinity isn't a number.
    Shorty
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  50. #49  
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    I know of a few very respectable number systems that would take issue with that statement shorty - the extended reals immediately come to mind
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  51. #50  
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    If infinity > 5 then there is a difference. I can mov 0 miles or I can move >5 miles, the results are different, ergo infinity is not equal to zreo.
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  52. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    I can mov 0 miles or I can move >5 miles, the results are different, ergo infinity is not equal to zreo.
    that is true and i think explains, my theory, when using 0 in...lets say 1+0...0 has a numerical value, however...as far as i know, you can't use infinity in an equation because it has no numerical value.

    i could be wrong but that is my belief, mind you I'm no maths professor

    i actually looked around and found this, maybe it helps:

    But maybe you're thinking of saying that 1/0 = infinity. Well then, what's "infinity"? How does it work in all the other equations?

    Does infinity - infinity = 0?
    Does 1 + infinity = infinity?

    If so, the associative rule doesn't work, since (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) will not always work:

    1 + (infinity - infinity) = 1 + 0 = 1, but
    (1 + infinity) - infinity = infinity - infinity = 0.
    Shorty
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  53. #52  
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    Hey shorty

    In the extended reals, x + ∞ = ∞ for all x > -∞ but ∞ + (-∞) is not defined for pretty much the same reasons you mentioned. Be careful though, defining 1/0 as ∞ is dangerous for other reasons. However, having a problem with subtraction (and division btw) is not a reason to declare ∞ something strange. You cant divide by zero but that does not exclude 0 as a number.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  54. #53  
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    Not the greatest mathematician in the world, my humble opinion is that infinity is a concept to 'oil' certain branches of maths eg calculus to run smoothly, since it is not a number I can't see it is logical to put it into any equation, like mixing apples and pairs. on the other hand zero is a unique number it represents the lack of a quantity whereas all other numbers represent a real quantity. When I see 1/0 my thought is that there is no real quantity in the denominator, if you like nothing in the denom, you cannot divide something by 'nothing' parts. there is simply nothing to divide the numerator by.

    To say 1/0 = infinity is even more absurd, like 1apple divided by one orange = 1 banana!

    ie you have a number, a nothing, and a concept!
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  55. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    To say 1/0 = infinity is even more absurd, like 1apple divided by one orange = 1 banana!
    ie you have a number, a nothing, and a concept!

    as stated, i found that on the internet, i don't actually believe that myself, Now as for the initial question "Is there a difference between 0 and infinity" my belief is yes, for reasons i stated earlier.

    cheers
    Shorty
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