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Thread: What kind of graph is this?

  1. #1 What kind of graph is this? 
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    Hi can anyone tell me what kind of graph this is in mathematical terms?



    I know it shows the relationship between heart rate, breathing and exercise (or at least I should know since I made it), but to be honest I would like also to say something interesting about the mathematical nature of the graph, since it's for a class assignment and I would like to possibly score a few extra credits for it if I can. The green area is the area when an individual is at rest. It has been included (although this may seem obvious) to show that heart rate and breathing maintain a normal stable state during rest. The maximum peak output (the flat area at the top of the curve) is the maximum work rate that can be sustained during exercise. The curve finally extends back down to the normal steady resting state after exercise has stopped.

    It probably sucks (lol) but I couldn't think of any other way to represent this data. It looks a bit like some kind of thermodynamic output graph (I know only a very little about thermodynamics), where a stable state is maintained and where the maximum possible sustainable output is also represented. I'm also not sure if I can say that it is an exponential graph, since growth (and decay) to not continue indefinitely.

    I admit I might be looking just to say something that seems quite clever (but is nonetheless true). However I would also like you guys opinions on whether this works OK, and maybe try to learn something about a good way to represent data like this in the future too?


     

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  3. #2 Re: What kind of graph is this? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Hi can anyone tell me what kind of graph this is in mathematical terms?



    I know it shows the relationship between heart rate, breathing and exercise (or at least I should know since I made it), but to be honest I would like also to say something interesting about the mathematical nature of the graph, since it's for a class assignment and I would like to possibly score a few extra credits for it if I can. The green area is the area when an individual is at rest. It has been included (although this may seem obvious) to show that heart rate and breathing maintain a normal stable state during rest. The maximum peak output (the flat area at the top of the curve) is the maximum work rate that can be sustained during exercise. The curve finally extends back down to the normal steady resting state after exercise has stopped.

    It probably sucks (lol) but I couldn't think of any other way to represent this data. It looks a bit like some kind of thermodynamic output graph (I know only a very little about thermodynamics), where a stable state is maintained and where the maximum possible sustainable output is also represented. I'm also not sure if I can say that it is an exponential graph, since growth (and decay) to not continue indefinitely.

    I admit I might be looking just to say something that seems quite clever (but is nonetheless true). However I would also like you guys opinions on whether this works OK, and maybe try to learn something about a good way to represent data like this in the future too?
    It is not a graph of anytihing. Your abscissa and ordinate are the same (vertical) line, which makes no sense at all.


     

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    Any suggestions how to fix it? I have to find a way to represent the fact that heart rate and breathing doesn't stop during rest and that it increases (although not infinitely) during exercise.

    To be honest I'm a bit stumped with it.
     

  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Any suggestions how to fix it? I have to find a way to represent the fact that heart rate and breathing doesn't stop during rest and that it increases (although not infinitely) during exercise.

    To be honest I'm a bit stumped with it.
    You might start by plotting the dependent variable vs the independent variable.
     

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    It doesn't need to be an actual statistical plot. Just a graphic illustration of what happens to heart rate and breathing during periods of rest and exercise.

    I couldn't find anything on the web (I looked for ages), so that's why I thought I should make my own. (Although as you pointed out, my efforts are completely lame, lol.)

    I'm completely maths stupid (as in I have never done any), so besides not knowing how to do what you suggested, I don't even know how to represent information like this effectively at all.

    I intend to do a maths course in the autumn though, so hopefully things should improve a little by then.
     

  7. #6  
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    It looks like a mound of dinosaur excrement.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    OK, thanks. I already said it was shit lol. It was supposed to look a bit like a hill on some grass, where at the bottom of the hill heart rate and breathing are stable, but as you go up the hill heart rate and breathing increase, until you hit the peak at which point it again stabilises. (Basically I'm doing a biology assignment on homoeostasis.)

    But you have done a good job of convincing me how lame an idea it was....
     

  9. #8  
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    Make a horizontal line at the bottom of your graph. This is the "x" coordinate and will represent, "time". Divide it into 5 minute chunks. Make a vertical line on the left side of your graph. Divide it into chunks of 10, with a 50 on the bottom, and a 200 at the top. This is your "y" coordinate and will represent "heart rate". If you use colors and provide a key. Then the activity associated with heart rate can be expressed in your plotting points, or the time line, or the heart rate line. 8)
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    Yeah, it has to be both heart rate and breathing though. So you can see at a glance that both go up simultaneously during exercise and that they both stabilise at rest and at peak output. (Heart rate and breathing don't of course just increase indefinitely with the more exercise you do.)

    I'm still not quite certain how that could be done. (And make it look pretty too.)
     

  11. #10  
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    On your "x" line, assign activity levels to your time chunks. Make your "y" line generically represent breaths, and heart beats, per minute. Then plot breath rate, with one color. And plot heart rate with, another color. You now have two lines in your graph. Don't forget to connect your dot's. 8)
     

  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Yeah, it has to be both heart rate and breathing though. So you can see at a glance that both go up simultaneously during exercise and that they both stabilise at rest and at peak output. (Heart rate and breathing don't of course just increase indefinitely with the more exercise you do.)

    I'm still not quite certain how that could be done. (And make it look pretty too.)
    You can plot two (or more) functions of time on one graph and just overlap them.

    So make time the x-axis. Plot heart rate vs. time. Use a scale on the left for heart rate. Also plot breathing rate vs. time. Use a scale on the right for breathing rate if one scale is inconvenient for both heart rate and breathing rate. You will have two curves. You can then compare the curves.

    If heart rate and breathing rate do not generally rise and fall together, check to see if your subject is dead.
     

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    Maybe you could salvage what you drew by labeling the horizontal axis as time, the vertical axis as heart rate and breathing, and adding another curve of exercise. The exercise would start at zero at time zero, rise linearly to a peak at the middle then go back to zero.
     

  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Maybe you could salvage what you drew by labeling the horizontal axis as time, the vertical axis as heart rate and breathing, and adding another curve of exercise. The exercise would start at zero at time zero, rise linearly to a peak at the middle then go back to zero.
    No.

    Unless heart rate and breathiing are the same thing (they are not) this won't work. You can't have a single curve for both. In fact that makes the OPs thesis a tautology.
     

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    Well think of it more of a graphic than a graph. I just wanted something that looked visually quite pretty (to impress my tutor, as being a biology tutor she seems unusually impressed by pretty graphics, although a pile of dinosaur dung isn't likely to impress anyone lol.) All it had to show was that heart rate and breathing went up during exercise and then stabilised at a peak output, and that it was also stable during rest. (Preferably indicating that both didn't just stop somehow when exercise stopped.)

    I'm pretty new to all this (I'm a mature student and haven't done any maths for years and am not great on a computer). I wish I knew how to produce impressive graphics on the computer like some people. Unfortunately I don't. I spent several hours searching quite extensively on Google for something suitable, but couldn't find anything.

    To clarify though I already have graphs of the kind you guys are referring to. I had to produce them by hand for each of the 5 people we tested in class. (We were measuring heart rate and breathing in response to exercise, while relating this to homoeostatic control mechanisms). But as these are hand drawn they won't contribute much to the overall visual impact of my essay.

    I just wish I had one or two really neat graphics I could include too. But that's quite hard for me to do right now.
     

  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Well think of it more of a graphic than a graph. I just wanted something that looked visually quite pretty (to impress my tutor, as being a biology tutor she seems unusually impressed by pretty graphics, although a pile of dinosaur dung isn't likely to impress anyone lol.) All it had to show was that heart rate and breathing went up during exercise and then stabilised at a peak output, and that it was also stable during rest. (Preferably indicating that both didn't just stop somehow when exercise stopped.)

    I'm pretty new to all this (I'm a mature student and haven't done any maths for years and am not great on a computer). I wish I knew how to produce impressive graphics on the computer like some people. Unfortunately I don't. I spent several hours searching quite extensively on Google for something suitable, but couldn't find anything.

    To clarify though I already have graphs of the kind you guys are referring to. I had to produce them by hand for each of the 5 people we tested in class. (We were measuring heart rate and breathing in response to exercise, while relating this to homoeostatic control mechanisms). But as these are hand drawn they won't contribute much to the overall visual impact of my essay.

    I just wish I had one or two really neat graphics I could include too. But that's quite hard for me to do right now.
    If all you want is cartoons without content or meaning then you are in the wrong forum.

    If your tutor is impressed by such things then you need a new tutor.
     

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    Oh come on. Do you really need to be so rough or so rude? Maybe you're having a bad day, but that's no reason to unload your negativity on others if you are. If all you have is derisory comments may I respectfully suggest you keep them to yourself? I'm quite sure I can live without them.

    How could I produce a meaningful mathematically accurate graphic anyway when there are no definite numbers that can be plugged in to what I'm trying to say? All that such a graphic needs to say is that during rest heart rate and breathing are stable and that during exercise they increase to a peak output point, where again they become stable.

    If only I could hire and fire my tutors! (Can you?) Unfortunately since I'm not rich and don't have the power to hire and fire my college tutors that's not on the cards.

    The 'pretty graphics' thing is bullshit, I agree. But it's also part of the overall marking criteria, which includes an element of presentation. WTF presentation has to do with learning anything about Biology (or maths for that matter) I have no clue about, but yeah pretty graphics, colour ink, index cards and everything laid out perfectly is apparently part of the criteria on which extra credit is awarded. (Although by no means the only one!)
     

  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Oh come on. Do you really need to be so rough or so rude? Maybe you're having a bad day, but that's no reason to unload your negativity on others if you are. If all you have is derisory comments may I respectfully suggest you keep them to yourself? I'm quite sure I can live without them.

    How could I produce a meaningful mathematically accurate graphic anyway when there are no definite numbers that can be plugged in to what I'm trying to say? All that such a graphic needs to say is that during rest heart rate and breathing are stable and that during exercise they increase to a peak output point, where again they become stable.

    If only I could hire and fire my tutors! (Can you?) Unfortunately since I'm not rich and don't have the power to hire and fire my college tutors that's not on the cards.

    The 'pretty graphics' thing is bullshit, I agree. But it's also part of the overall marking criteria, which includes an element of presentation. WTF presentation has to do with learning anything about Biology (or maths for that matter) I have no clue about, but yeah pretty graphics, colour ink, index cards and everything laid out perfectly is apparently part of the criteria on which extra credit is awarded. (Although by no means the only one!)
    I was not being even slightly hard, just honest.

    I can most certainly hire and fire tutors, and choose whether or not to attend any institution. I don't have to any more, largely because I was sufficiently perceptive in the past to make that a non-issue now. If your tutors are impressed by bullshit, then pick a school where that is not the case.
     

  19. #18  
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    Well good for you and the considerable resources you must have to enable you to do this. Unfortunately for most students this isn't the norm however. In reality the majority of students don't have the ability to simply change institutions mid-course, or the influence to inform college administrators about who they should hire and fire.

    If you weren't being unnecessary rude (which to be honest it still seems to me you were), it's at least clear you were being extremely unreasonable.
     

  20. #19  
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    If you think DrRocket is rude, you have not met some of the others around here. I haven't seen him call you any name's, or challenge your ancestry. Some other's around here seem to be into those behavior's. DrRocket can be brusque, but check out his avatar. No misrepresentation there. And he doe's have an excellent sense of humor.
    If heart rate and breathing rate do not generally rise and fall together, check to see if your subject is dead.
    Really, I don't know what to do about your graph/graphic problem, but...

    If you really want to impress your tutor, try flowers. Seeing as she's a biologist, I recommend something exotic, live planted. In a cute little ceramic pot. 8)
     

  21. #20  
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    Well I have no ancestry to speak of, so it would be a bit of a blind alley anyway lol.

    I already tried the bribery thing, but it didn't work. The other thing I have to crack is that not only does what I do have to read well, it has look good too. I mean I don't really get it either, but that is part of the marking criteria. (Probably not a huge part, but all the same.)
     

  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Well I have no ancestry to speak of, so it would be a bit of a blind alley anyway lol.

    I already tried the bribery thing, but it didn't work. The other thing I have to crack is that not only does what I do have to read well, it has look good too. I mean I don't really get it either, but that is part of the marking criteria. (Probably not a huge part, but all the same.)
    You apparently value "looking good" over "making sense".

    That is not a problem. In a class that I were teaching you would simply fail. But if that is the criteria that is being used in a class at a supposedly serious intstitution of higher education then that is a real problem A degree from such a place is worthless. You are being cheated. You have a right to complain, and a duty to yourself to go elsewhere if those complaints do not bring appropriate action.

    Deans and department heads have a responsibility to see that such nonsense does not occur.
     

  23. #22  
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    You know what. You can't see what I'm doing with my finger right now. But try and guess!

    FYI (not that it's any of your business and I don't see why you should attempt to make it such), I already did complain about the BS emphasis being placed on presentation (it's not me who cares about this BTW, so it would help if you got that right) as I have as much clue as anybody what this has to do with content.

    But it's s short course (8~ months). So I keep my head down, do what's asked, put up with some of the BS, get the grade and then (although it has nothing to do with any of the 'helpful' advice you might think you're offering), move on somewhere else to greener pastures.

    Like I said, I don't have the influence (again like most college students) to dictate to administrators what their policies should or shouldn't be, or who they should hire and fire - and frankly I'm only going to be there for too short a time to care.

    What this has to do with anything I asked about about how to represent data of this nature I don't know though.

    Anyway I'm not going to let you spoil my day, even though it seems like your only objective.
     

  24. #23  
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    It's the fact that you put up with it that demoralizes your education, and causes anyone who scrutinizes the degree you will eventually get to see it as a bullshit degree. That's the issue he addressed with you.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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  25. #24  
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    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
     

  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
    Nope.

    The content is the message.

    The medium is just window dressing.

    You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
     

  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
    Rocket is very right.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

     

  28. #27  
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    Er, can someone please explain to me what's going on here.

    Why so much aggro - I don't get it.
     

  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitarist
    Er, can someone please explain to me what's going on here.

    Why so much aggro - I don't get it.
    Basically the OP asked how to present utter nonsense in a pretty picture.

    It was pointed out that nonsense is nonsense no matter how it is presented.

    Some people like pretty nonsense. Others prefer content in their thoughts.

    Accepting nonsense in place of meaningful thought is, at the very least, an abrogation of one's responsibility to oneself.

    This is a mathematics and science forum. Content is king. Nonsense is to be identified and discarded.

    Pretty nonsense belongs in philosophy. Or the trash can.

    aggro? agronomy ? :wink:
     

  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
    Rocket is very right.
    While the content of the message must be accurate, the message has no value if it cannot reach and be understood and accepted by its intended audience. This more likley to happen if the presentation of the message is attractive and interesting.

    That's why we use graphs and charts and photographs, and take pains to write coherent, dynamic prose. Thus the appearance of any presentation of facts remains important. Dr. Rocket has denied this. He is mistaken. (Perhaps in academia he might be able to get away with it. That attitude would lead to a rapid failure in the business world.)

    Raid517 has understood this fundamental truth. He has not been very effective at producing something that looks good and is technically sound, but I applaud him for trying to do so, I commend him for seeking help in doing so, and I berate those who have sneered at his efforts and declared that appearance is unimportant. Tell that to a peacock.
     

  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
    Rocket is very right.
    While the content of the message must be accurate, the message has no value if it cannot reach and be understood and accepted by its intended audience. This more likley to happen if the presentation of the message is attractive and interesting.

    That's why we use graphs and charts and photographs, and take pains to write coherent, dynamic prose. Thus the appearance of any presentation of facts remains important. Dr. Rocket has denied this. He is mistaken. (Perhaps in academia he might be able to get away with it. That attitude would lead to a rapid failure in the business world.)

    Raid517 has understood this fundamental truth. He has not been very effective at producing something that looks good and is technically sound, but I applaud him for trying to do so, I commend him for seeking help in doing so, and I berate those who have sneered at his efforts and declared that appearance is unimportant. Tell that to a peacock.
    I did just fine in the business world, thank you very much. That is what allowed me to retire early.

    While it is true that a good presentation can help to explain a good idea, it is not true that a good presentation can make up for lack of logic or lack of content. That is the issue here.

    You have badly misconstrued what I said. I said that you cannot put lipstick on a pig and expect anything other than a pig.

    Coherent dynamics prose is a good thing. But fancy PowerPoint presentations of incoherent thoughts are just nonsense -- lipstick on a pig. First you have have to know what you are talking about. Then you can worry about putting that knowledge in a nice package.
     

  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The medium is the message.

    i.e. Rocket is Rong.
    Rocket is very right.
    While the content of the message must be accurate, the message has no value if it cannot reach and be understood and accepted by its intended audience. This more likley to happen if the presentation of the message is attractive and interesting.

    That's why we use graphs and charts and photographs, and take pains to write coherent, dynamic prose. Thus the appearance of any presentation of facts remains important. Dr. Rocket has denied this. He is mistaken. (Perhaps in academia he might be able to get away with it. That attitude would lead to a rapid failure in the business world.)

    Raid517 has understood this fundamental truth. He has not been very effective at producing something that looks good and is technically sound, but I applaud him for trying to do so, I commend him for seeking help in doing so, and I berate those who have sneered at his efforts and declared that appearance is unimportant. Tell that to a peacock.
    I did just fine in the business world, thank you very much. That is what allowed me to retire early.

    While it is true that a good presentation can help to explain a good idea, it is not true that a good presentation can make up for lack of logic or lack of content. That is the issue here.

    You have badly misconstrued what I said. I said that you cannot put lipstick on a pig and expect anything other than a pig.

    Coherent dynamics prose is a good thing. But fancy PowerPoint presentations of incoherent thoughts are just nonsense -- lipstick on a pig. First you have have to know what you are talking about. Then you can worry about putting that knowledge in a nice package.
    all well and good and in some of your posts you seemed to be implying that, but in others you were explicitly stating that appearance did not matter.

    And while we are at it, you state - very clearly - that the OP was trying to convey utter nonsense. Really? So you claim that breathing and heart rate do not remain level during rest, and that they do not rise to a peak during exercise, then fall gradually back to the rest values when exercise ends? Simplistic? A little, but at the level Raid is working at perfectly correct and certainly not utter nonsense.

    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
     

  33. #32  
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    It's not a degree. It's minor module that may or may not lead on to more meaningful things depending on what I decide to do next.

    I don't quite get the agro either. Despite whatever people think I should or shouldn't do, I don't have the power, or the desire to hire and fire my own college tutors and I'm not about to walk out 3 or 4 weeks towards the end of the course just because some random internet person has taken objection to a requirement over which I have no control.

    I'm just an older student who has gone back to college after a 20 year gap to try something new and I don't have a great deal of experience at producing meaningful and eye catching graphics on a computer. I am however perfectly happy with the rest of what I've done, so I don't care in the slightest if some faceless guy gets a bee in his bonnet over something that has exactly nothing to do with him, or the topic anyway.

    I've encountered lots of people like this before, who just like to try to make themselves feel a little less miserable and worthless, by trying to insult the efforts of others and by attempting to imply that everything they do is worthless. (Yes I did psychology too - and I aced it. Lol, you think a few eye catching graphs here and there in Biology is unreasonable? Try psychology, or sociology - that's all they really are. )

    Anyhoo back on topic. Does anyone have any suggestion on how one might present data like this in a visually appealing way?

    You may have to stand back as Mr grumpy "man bear" person's blood boils at even the merest though of it, but the funny thing is I really genuinely don't care. :-)

    It's a perfectly valid question. There's no reason at all not to ask it.
     

  34. #33  
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    Philosophy in the math forum. I like it!

    Let's consider the relativity of paradigm's. I will use a mathematical metaphor even. If one assumes the axiom of choice, in the Zermelo-Frankel set, infinities can be expressed with certain graphical character's. That is one paradigm. There are system's of mathematics that exclude the axiom of choice. I don't understand the implication's of this yet, but it certainly must be a different paradigm. Neither view is incorrect, they both have relevancy.
    You all are correct.

    Just a guess but... I surmise that Mr raid517 has the "hot's" for his female tutor. That the pursuit of academia is secondary in his situation. Too bad the forum has no "Romance" category. 8)
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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    as was already suggested, plot either time, or intensity of activity on the horizontal, and both breath rate and heart rate on the vertical. Plot two graphs to show the relations, and focus on precision and accuracy over prettiness. Focusing on prettiness and visual appeal will, tend, to overlook accuracy.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    And while we are at it, you state - very clearly - that the OP was trying to convey utter nonsense. Really? So you claim that breathing and heart rate do not remain level during rest, and that they do not rise to a peak during exercise, then fall gradually back to the rest values when exercise ends? Simplistic? A little, but at the level Raid is working at perfectly correct and certainly not utter nonsense.

    If I've misconstrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Yeah it is a bit like stating the obvious. But you do that a lot when first learning science. If this guy was so smart he would know too that it's not as obvious a hypothesis, or as nonsensical as it may at first seem. The objective is to state the hypothesis, but the really tricky bit comes in attempting to explain why this is the case. (Which is the task I have been given.) You pretty much have to be able to explain a large chunk of human (and of course by implication mammalian) physiology to be able to do it, from the macro right down to the cellular level. I'm pretty happy I've done a good job of that part. But if there's any extra credit to be had, then why not?

    It doesn't seem wrong at all to wish to find a visually interesting way to be able to say two closely related things at once. Another part of the criteria is to be able to inform others who know less than you. My original graphic may have been pants (I already admitted that!) but it makes a very valid logical point that heart rate and breathing both increase pretty much in step with each other during exercise and that they don't increase indefinitely, nor indeed do they cease after exercise stops. (Mr D. may well groan at how obvious this is, at which point I suggest he speak to a biologist and ask them to explain why it isn't so obvious - or indeed even how such a state of affairs can come to exist at all!)

    Anyway if two things are closely related (perhaps in maths and in biological processes of this nature), isn't there ever a way to present both conditions in a single consistent way?

    I already have the formal graphs that Mr D. referred to previously covered. (So he really is shouting about nothing.) But is this really the only useful way to do this? Mr D. may prefer the raw data and may admire a dull and dry style of presentation, but you try telling Leonardo that science should never look pretty! I can't draw like him though, which is why I asked for help.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Maybe you should just learn to read more perceptively.

    Let's see. The OP starts with a picture that shows both the dependent (breathing or pulse rate, take your pick) and independent variable (time) in the vertical direction, and further claims that a single "blob" represents both breathing rate and heart rate during some period of exercise.

    I don't care whether the dependent variables are breathing and heart rate or IQ and sex drive. That doesn't make any sense.

    Then when this problem is pointed out, the respnse is basically "I don't care. I just want it to look good." So we have a clear statement that content and meaning are not important but only some sort aesthetic appeal. That is ridiculous. So are your comments.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Maybe you should just learn to read more perceptively.

    Let's see. The OP starts with a picture that shows both the dependent (breathing or pulse rate, take your pick) and independent variable (time) in the vertical direction, and further claims that a single "blob" represents both breathing rate and heart rate during some period of exercise.

    I don't care whether the dependent variables are breathing and heart rate or IQ and sex drive. That doesn't make any sense.

    Then when this problem is pointed out, the respnse is basically "I don't care. I just want it to look good." So we have a clear statement that content and meaning are not important but only some sort aesthetic appeal. That is ridiculous. So are your comments.
    Ahh, no you see. That data has already been presented in the (generally accepted formally academic) way that you (and others) have suggested. What I was looking for was another slightly more visually appealing (or to be more exact, instantly informative) way to say this.

    As I said is there never a case in mathematics where two closely related conditions that are both obviously true can be represented visually as dependant subunits of each other? If a system in it's wholeness works, can't something generalised ever be said about that system overall?

    And no I didn't say I didn't care. I said you can't make me feel bad about anything I've done and that I'm perfectly happy with this. I did say I didn't care for your unhelpful and derisory comments and that it continues to escape me why you think this has anything to do with the topic at all. But as I said, the more insulting you become the less I am likely to care. It is I suppose what you would call a no win situation.

    Edit: To be honest I don't really see the point in any of this arguing at all. To be blunt I have over 20 years of forum arguments like this under my belt (from the early days in the 1990's BBS scene until now.) So I think it's fair to say I know how to throw a good cissy fight on the internet - and that I could happily argue Mr D. to a standstill if he wished it. However given what an utter waste of life it would be, I'm not really sure I can really be arsed.

    All I want is maybe to try to learn something useful and apply that in a way that may have a chance of pleasing my tutors. I'd prefer if it wasn't bunk. But there we are. I never professed a love of bunk to begin with.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    It doesn't need to be an actual statistical plot. Just a graphic illustration of what happens to heart rate and breathing during periods of rest and exercise.

    I couldn't find anything on the web (I looked for ages), so that's why I thought I should make my own. (Although as you pointed out, my efforts are completely lame, lol.)

    I'm completely maths stupid (as in I have never done any), so besides not knowing how to do what you suggested, I don't even know how to represent information like this effectively at all.

    I intend to do a maths course in the autumn though, so hopefully things should improve a little by then.
    You stated here, implicitly, that content did not matter. Rocket's response to your posts was ALWAYS appropriate.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

     

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    That depends on the content, lol. It can't be an obviously false statement. But I'm sure it must be possible somehow to say that both conditions are true (that heart rate and breathing increase with exercise) without treating them independently?

    Indeed I can say it here, without needing to use any maths at all. I can simply write it down as a single logical statement. So why can't you ever say it visually in the same way? Or does mathematics never allow for the representation of generalised statements in this way?

    Anyway I didn't say content didn't matter, I said I wanted a way to represent this data in a generalised way that could be said to be applicable to everyone, and not just the subjects in our experiment.

    You try plotting a graph for the heart and breathing rates of everyone on the planet during exercise and see how far you get. Better to just have a quick thumbnail way of representing this where you can know instantly that if a is the case, then b will almost always be the case also. (Unless of course as someone pointed out you're unfortunate enough to dead.)
     

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    I see nothing terribly wrong with the original idea. The execution was a bit off. It's not a math course. It is just a conceptual illustration. There is nothing wrong with developing a skill to make an illustration for a presentation. That skill could be useful to many people in their careers. It's not like the guy is being asked to take a course in basket weaving. The idea that he should drop out of school because his teacher asked him to make an illustration is ridiculous.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I see nothing terribly wrong with the original idea. The execution was a bit off. It's not a math course. It is just a conceptual illustration. There is nothing wrong with developing a skill to make an illustration for a presentation. That skill could be useful to many people in their careers. It's not like the guy is being asked to take a course in basket weaving. The idea that he should drop out of school because his teacher asked him to make an illustration is ridiculous.
    I have a feeling that's why the good presentation part of it is important, because they are trying to develop good overall presentation ability in students in general. It might have something to do with some students work being of a very poor presentational quality and them trying to encourage extra effort by allowing some small credit for presentation too. It might not be as crazy as it sounds.

    Anyway the reason the execution is off is because I have roughly zero practice (or knowledge) of how to produce appealing informative graphics like this on a computer. However, while the execution was off, as you pointed out the logic was sound enough. Since I can't plot 7 billion people's responses to exercise independently, I wanted a way to make a conceptual illustration that would make a statement that could be said to true for everyone. Where exactly is the problem with that?

    And yes (part) of the question was to produce 5 graphs plotting exactly the responses of everyone in our experiment. However another part of the question was that I needed to produce a single graphic that showed these responses were true for everyone and not just for the people in our test. Screamingly obvious you might think, but the rational is to teach students useful ways to represent complex data that can't be easily represented in a strictly mathematical or statistical way. (Even though there may be maths underlying many of the principles involved - as in the case of cell transport and simple diffusion.)

    Which (after a great deal of unnecessary heat and shouting) still leaves open the question, how exactly might someone go about doing this?
     

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    Edit ^.
     

  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Maybe you should just learn to read more perceptively.
    My skills at reading place me in the top .5%, so I do believe the problem lies eleswhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Let's see. The OP starts with a picture that shows both the dependent (breathing or pulse rate, take your pick) and independent variable (time) in the vertical direction, and further claims that a single "blob" represents both breathing rate and heart rate during some period of exercise. .
    The OP makes clear he needs help in presenting his ideas. There is nothing wrong with his ideas, it there conversion to a graphical representation that was faulty. He acknowledged that at the outset, which is why he was posting at all.

    You are attacking him for errors in what he had clearly stated had errors. You were, apparently, too disinterested, rude, or confused to understand that. His basic ideas, what he wanted to show were sound. You leapt into attacking him for no sound logical reason.

    Now this dialogue is going nowhere. I'm ending my participation in it. Respond as you will, but pray consider the possibility that on this occasion you may have fucked up.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Maybe you should just learn to read more perceptively.
    My skills at reading place me in the top .5%, so I do believe the problem lies eleswhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    If I've miscontrued your meaning yet again , perhaps you should learn to write more clearly.
    Let's see. The OP starts with a picture that shows both the dependent (breathing or pulse rate, take your pick) and independent variable (time) in the vertical direction, and further claims that a single "blob" represents both breathing rate and heart rate during some period of exercise. .
    The OP makes clear he needs help in presenting his ideas. There is nothing wrong with his ideas, it there conversion to a graphical representation that was faulty. He acknowledged that at the outset, which is why he was posting at all.

    You are attacking him for errors in what he had clearly stated had errors. You were, apparently, too disinterested, rude, or confused to understand that. His basic ideas, what he wanted to show were sound. You leapt into attacking him for no sound logical reason.

    Now this dialogue is going nowhere. I'm ending my participation in it. Respond as you will, but pray consider the possibility that on this occasion you may have fucked up.
    the sad part is, that's what rocket addressed first. And when his posts were disregarded as unimportant, he attacked the methodology of the OP. Reread the thread, ophi.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I see nothing terribly wrong with the original idea. The execution was a bit off. It's not a math course. It is just a conceptual illustration. There is nothing wrong with developing a skill to make an illustration for a presentation. That skill could be useful to many people in their careers. It's not like the guy is being asked to take a course in basket weaving. The idea that he should drop out of school because his teacher asked him to make an illustration is ridiculous.
    What is ridiculous is your characterization of what was said.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite

    Now this dialogue is going nowhere. I'm ending my participation in it. Respond as you will, but pray consider the possibility that on this occasion you may have fucked up.
    Go reread the thread. Slowly this time.
     

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    They weren't dismissed as unimportant, only as not what was required. Inferring that my qualifications were worthless, my college and tutors substandard, that I should quit school just because my tutor asked me to produce a graphic and was keen to encourage good presentation and/or that I should sack my tutors, and my college administrators, as though that was common ability of all average college students and that I was somehow deficient in my duty to myself and to the very principles of academic achievement if I didn't do this are hardly the musings of a very rational person.

    I'm sorry if comments like this encourage me to be instantly dismissive of the vast majority of anything a person like this might have to say. But I have a good radar for bullsh*t and all of the above just read like a big dirty blip on my screen.

    None of which again has anything whatsoever to do with the topic. Which leads me to what I think is a very rational compromise. Specifically that if you don't feel you have anything very constructive to say that can specifically address the subject at hand, I think the most sensible approach is if you simply refrain from contributing.

    I don't particularly give a jot for Mr D. 'irrationally angry person's' views on how I should conduct my education, or indeed my life, or for those of his rapidly diminishing band of supporters anyway. So you can rest assured in the comforting knowledge that all contributions of this nature are extremely unlikely to be missed.

    I simply wish for the thread to address the topic and nothing but the topic. Forgive me for feeling that despite whatever other points of view may have been presented, this really is the only rational and logical thing that matters. For such coldly rational people as mathematicians are often depicted to be, there seems to have been a rather stark lack of logic presented in this thread so far.

    It's a bit like someone coming to a class and asking a tutor if they can solve a particularly difficult maths problem that they've been having difficulty with to which their response is "divorce your wife!" I mean WTF? Lol. Some of you people are crazy!!
     

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    This is a very very high quality maths forum, largely as a result of DrRocket's input. I can assure you that your misanthropic mind-farts are not going to change that.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite

    Now this dialogue is going nowhere. I'm ending my participation in it. Respond as you will, but pray consider the possibility that on this occasion you may have fucked up.
    Go reread the thread. Slowly this time.
    Yeah he needs to read it slowly doesn't he? I mean no-one's comprehension is on a par with yours, now is it?

    I've got some news for you though bud. I knew and know exactly what I wanted. He got it and you didn't. (As did several others.) Who's comprehension is off now?

    But since you clearly don't have anything very much more 'useful' to contribute, I respectfully request you take your searing insight and direct it somewhere where it might be of more use.

    As I said I invite you and your little band of unmerry supporters to go and make a thread of your own elsewhere, where you can decry the desire of tutors to develop good presentational skills in entry level students and where you can each exchange helpful advice about how to go about running each others lives. (Or indeed offer each other marriage council if needed, lol)

    I am now formally requesting that the moderators make some kind of attempt to keep this thread on topic. Calm down people. It's just a mound of dinosaur dung after all! :-)
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMR80606
    This is a very very high quality maths forum, largely as a result of DrRocket's input. I can assure you that your misanthropic mind-farts are not going to change that.
    He may be good at maths. But there's no evidence that this makes him particularly good at life. (Or gives him the liberty to pass judgement on comment on anyone else's for that matter.)
     

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    Your topic was addressed, and answered appropriately by more than one member. You continued to ignore that advice, and claimed you wanted a graphic, not a graph. Pretty things are not mathematical, and as you clearly stated you desired pretty over precise, we directed our comments as such. Deal with being told you are on a fool's errand, if you refuse to heed the advice given to you.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Your topic was addressed, and answered appropriately by more than one member. You continued to ignore that advice, and claimed you wanted a graphic, not a graph. Pretty things are not mathematical, and as you clearly stated you desired pretty over precise, we directed our comments as such. Deal with being told you are on a fool's errand, if you refuse to heed the advice given to you.
    You know what, I'm going to draw some really pretty flowers on the front of my submission just for you, lol. Anyway if you were even half way up to speed you would know you already missed the point.

    Anyway since you are so clever, do it then. Plot an exact mathematical graph showing the heart rate and breathing response to exercise of everyone on the planet.

    You insist things like this have to be exact and mathematically accurate, so go on then. I have no intention of claiming credit for it, but it will be an interesting thing to see!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Your topic was addressed, and answered appropriately by more than one member. You continued to ignore that advice, and claimed you wanted a graphic, not a graph. Pretty things are not mathematical, and as you clearly stated you desired pretty over precise, we directed our comments as such. Deal with being told you are on a fool's errand, if you refuse to heed the advice given to you.
    You know what, I'm going to draw some really pretty flowers on the front of my submission just for you, lol. Anyway if you were even half way up to speed you would know you already missed the point.
    no, I'm up to speed, and have been up to speed and following this thread from Rocket's first response. Nice try though, gotta admit, for a presentation it looks pretty, but tells us nothing.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

     

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    Which presentation is that? The one you haven't seen, will never see and know nothing about?
     

  56. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    if I didn't do this are hardly the musings of a very rational person.

    I'm sorry if comments like this encourage me to be instantly dismissive of the vast majority of anything a person like this might have to say. But I have a good radar for bullsh*t and all of the above just read like a big dirty blip on my screen.
    Better recalibrate your meter or at least apply it to your upper lip.
     

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    Are you still here? I'm sure I remember politely asking you to leave... If I didn't make this clear, forgive me, I really did mean to.

    I think I'll need to spend quite a bit of time cleaning my screen.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Are you still here? I'm sure I remember politely asking you to leave... If I didn't make this clear, forgive me, I really did mean to.

    I think I'll need to spend quite a bit of time cleaning my screen.
    You apparently have me confused with someone who cares what you say.
     

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    I'm genuinely upset that you don't care. And here was me thinking all along that you did, especially with all the long and detailed advice you gave me about how I should run my life! Here's everyone on the forum thinking you are a big bad Grizzly, when you're just a little soft care bear really!
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    I'm genuinely upset that you don't care. And here was me thinking all along that you did, especially with all the long and detailed advice you gave me about how I should run my life! Here's everyone on the forum thinking you are a big bad Grizzly, when you're just a little soft care bear really!
    I just like bears.
     

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    Oh don't even go there! Lol. I know more than my fair share of bear jokes too.

    Like:

    A bear bear walks into a bar and sits down. he calls the bartender over and says “I'd like a gin … … … … … … … and tonic.”

    The bartender says “okay, but why the big pause?”

    The bear looks down and says ….“I dunno, I've always had them.”
     

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    So are we going to get any extended pause from you any time soon Mr D?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    I am now formally requesting that the moderators make some kind of attempt to keep this thread on topic.
    Granted.

    Mod note: raid517 please keep personal attacks directed at other members out of this thread and try to stay on topic.

    PS, I have been without internet access for a while, so I haven't read the entire thread. Sorry for my dereliction of duty.
     

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    I think you are mistaking who instigated the personal comments. I didn't ask for life advice and such advice was both unwelcome and unwarranted. But oh well.

    I will happily comply with this stipulation and had already expressed this wish that everyone else should too from a very early point.

    It's probably a lot easier for me to do than it may be for others.
     

  65. #64  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    I think you are mistaking who instigated the personal comments.
    Umm... are you perhaps a father or mother? I am a multiple father, and I hear this all the time :

    "well he/she started it". I expect this from children, but I don't like it; I can only trust they will grow out of it.

    But I hope this this will not become the way we conduct ourselves here.

    In short - grow up and behave yourself
     

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    Hey I don't have to put up with being pushed around. Not by you or anyone. I asked about how to represent complex data here, not about how I should conduct my life and my personal affairs.

    And if someone does do this you can be damn sure I will feel perfectly at liberty to tell them to butt out.

    If you were an effective moderator you would moderate equally and tell everyone enough already with the personal remarks. That's all I have asked for and wanted from the outset.
     

  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Hey I don't have to put up with being pushed around. Not by you or anyone. I asked about how to represent complex data here, not about how I should conduct my life and my personal affairs.

    And if someone does do this you can be damn sure I will feel perfectly at liberty to tell them to butt out.

    If you were an effective moderator you would moderate equally and tell everyone enough already with the personal remarks. That's all I have asked for and wanted from the outset.
    You posed a question and got an answer.

    You also make some ridiculous statements and got called on them. Your inability to understand perfectly straightforward answers and comments is not my problem.

    You were not pushed around. In fact you are not worth the trouble.

    You can tell all you want, though why I would choose to listen to you is a complete mystery. Please go straight to hell.
     

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    Lol. I see you have managed to retain the same consistent logical tone throughout?

    I didn't say you pushed me around. That would be affording to an honour to which you are clearly not entitled.

    You irritated me yes. You bugged me yes. But mostly I considered (and still consider) your views to be irrelevant.

    Your difficulty in this case is that you clearly don't like being irrelevant, which is why despite several perfectly reasonable requests to this effect, you seem utterly unable to leave it alone.

    I think pushed around is certainly too strong a phrase, but I have made it clear that I didn't grant you permission to comment on any aspect of my personal life and that I don't grant you any kind of permission to do so now.

    Why should you have such immense difficulty with this?
     

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    raid,
    please ignore the provocations and let's return to the topic of the thread. I may have a couple of suggestions that could help you, but am unlikely to be able to think them through till the weekend. Please remain calm and objective till then and ignore the jibes.
    Rgds
    O.
     

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    Well this is really the kind of helpful and constructive answer I was hoping for to begin with!

    Wouldn't it be so much easier if everyone just opted to take this approach?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517

    I think pushed around is certainly too strong a phrase, but I have made it clear that I didn't grant you permission to comment on any aspect of my personal life and that I don't grant you any kind of permission to do so now.

    Why should you have such immense difficulty with this?
    I don't need your permission.
     

  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Well this is really the kind of helpful and constructive answer I was hoping for to begin with!

    Wouldn't it be so much easier if everyone just opted to take this approach?
    Yoiu were told quite early on how to plot real data, if you have any, to show the relationship of both breathing rate and pulse rate as a function of time.

    You chose to ignore that in favor of some, undefined, "pretty graphic" eschewing any technical content.

    It is far more important that readers, including lurkers, reading a thread such as this understand the nature of technical data and how it may be objectively portrayed than that you satisgy some personal need to display meaningless graphics for a course grade.

    You asked a technical question and got a valid technical answer. Your inability to either understand or appreciate is no one's problem but your own.
     

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    I don't need your permission.
    Then equally I shouldn't need permission to comment on any aspect of your personal life too.

    One or two of the moderators (well one to be exact) appears t think this isn't a reasonable position to adopt, so out of deference to him and my own remaining desire to afford you a more mature level of consideration than you have clearly been able to show me, I will opt to refrain from doing so at this time.

    But it is clear just how bent out of shape by this point you really are. I mean how many times do you need to be told to drop it and to try to stay on topic before it finally sinks in?

    I told you several posts ago if this was all you wanted to do, I could keep going at it pretty much indefinately.

    But I also quite reasonably said that I didn't think this was a very useful or sensible thing to do, since it clearly had, and has nothing to do with the topic.

    I can see you have a deep seated need to feel relevant - even to me. This is clearly why you keep comming back, when I have already told you that your interjections are unwelcome. To be honest I'm touched. Honoured even, that someone as reputedly bright as you should feel such a seemily uncontrollable desire to gain my attention.

    However I'm afraid your attempts to gain relevance to me will sadly have to continue to go almost wholly unrequited. It may be difficult for you to appreciate, but you see I really have moved on now. Things can probably never be the same between us again.
     

  74. #73  
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    Wouldn't it be so much easier if everyone just opted to take this approach?

    Yoiu were told quite early on how to plot real data, if you have any, to show the relationship of both breathing rate and pulse rate as a function of time.

    You chose to ignore that in favor of some, undefined, "pretty graphic" eschewing any technical content.

    You asked a technical question and got a valid technical answer. Your inability to either understand or appreciate is no one's problem but your own.
    And I told you I already had exact statistical mathematically accurate graphs plotted and that all I was looking for was a graphical representation that could show that the same generalised realtionship was true for everyone and not just the people in the test we conducted.

    It's nonsense to say that nothing accurate or truthful (or indeed mathematical) could be dervived from a representation of this nature.

    But anyway, I can tell you're not a fan of PowerPoint, or anything like this. Too bad I guess that a large chunk of the rest of the world is.

    Pretty and genuinely informative!? Now there's a challenge to anyone who wants to take it up. Mr D. says it can't be done! I think having seen literally thousands of false colour images of cells, bacteria and and other related biological process during my time as a student on this course, that there's a good argument he could be wrong. But there we are, maybe all bilogists really are barking up the wrong tree!
     

  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    raid,
    please ignore the provocations and let's return to the topic of the thread. I may have a couple of suggestions that could help you, but am unlikely to be able to think them through till the weekend. Please remain calm and objective till then and ignore the jibes.
    Rgds
    O.
    Ophilite, be careful.

    The OP has made it quite clear that that this project is intended as course work to be graded. The OP has also failed to respond to suggestions and quesions designed to help the OP solve the problem for himself. and instead is quite clearly looking for someone else to do the substantative work for the project. The OP has not offered any hard data, any indication of understanding of the data, or any substantive work of his own -- the initial graphic is not any way substantive or even meaningful. So, it is quite clear that anything that you suggest is likely to eventually be presented for credit in the class as the work of the OP.

    That is called cheating. It is sufficient in reputable universities to result in expulsion. Complicity is against the written stated policy in this forum and in any case is morally reprehensible.
     

  76. #75  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Pretty and genuinely informative!? Now there's a challenge to anyone who wants to take it up. Mr D. says it can't be done!
    \

    I said no such thing. Not only can it be done, but I know several ways to do it quite effectively.

    On the other hand I will not be a party to what is clearly and illicit activity with regard to a university class.

    You have yet to demonstrate a shred of understanding of how such data should be analyzed. If you understood that the question of presentatin would be quite simple.

    Doing the work that you should do yourself for presentatin for a course grade is cheating. Period.
     

  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    raid,
    please ignore the provocations and let's return to the topic of the thread. I may have a couple of suggestions that could help you, but am unlikely to be able to think them through till the weekend. Please remain calm and objective till then and ignore the jibes.
    Rgds
    O.
    Ophilite, be careful.

    The OP has made it quite clear that that this project is intended as course work to be graded. The OP has also failed to respond to suggestions and quesions designed to help the OP solve the problem for himself. and instead is quite clearly looking for someone else to do the substantative work for the project. The OP has not offered any hard data, any indication of understanding of the data, or any substantive work of his own -- the initial graphic is not any way substantive or even meaningful. So, it is quite clear that anything that you suggest is likely to eventually be presented for credit in the class as the work of the OP.

    That is called cheating. It is sufficient in reputable universities to result in expulsion. Complicity is against the written stated policy in this forum and in any case is morally reprehensible.
    Nope I asked How do you do that? I'm just some old county simplton as I'm sure you feel you've established and I lack both the knowledge and computer skills (as evidenced in my initial illustration) to know how best it could be achived. Unfortunately, although I am doing several courses in combination, computer literacy and graphical presentation skills is not one of them. (For the moment at least.) And if you think I'm going to post my work here for you to grade and crow over, you clearly really are living on another planet.

    It's not wrong to admit you don't know how to do something and the ask for advice about how best it can be achived. I've read enough posts on this forum to know that people do this here on a very regular basis.

    The question is still an interesting novice question, of how complex data of this kind can best be represented, and is likely to not just be of interest to me, but to several other casual readers of the forum too.
     

  78. #77  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Pretty and genuinely informative!? Now there's a challenge to anyone who wants to take it up. Mr D. says it can't be done!
    \

    I said no such thing. Not only can it be done, but I know several ways to do it quite effectively.

    On the other hand I will not be a party to what is clearly and illicit activity with regard to a university class.

    You have yet to demonstrate a shred of understanding of how such data should be analyzed. If you understood that the question of presentatin would be quite simple.

    Doing the work that you should do yourself for presentatin for a course grade is cheating. Period.
    I'm not asking someone else to do the work, I'm asking how to do it. Anyway if you imagine that half (or more) the people who come here and ask questions aren't doing so to help them with some problem they are having at school or other, I think you are really are probably quite dellusional.

    But then, this does seem to be becoming somewhat of a pattern.
     

  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    Pretty and genuinely informative!? Now there's a challenge to anyone who wants to take it up. Mr D. says it can't be done!
    \

    I said no such thing. Not only can it be done, but I know several ways to do it quite effectively.

    On the other hand I will not be a party to what is clearly and illicit activity with regard to a university class.

    You have yet to demonstrate a shred of understanding of how such data should be analyzed. If you understood that the question of presentatin would be quite simple.

    Doing the work that you should do yourself for presentatin for a course grade is cheating. Period.
    I'm not asking someone else to do the work, I'm asking how to do it. Anyway if you imagine that half (or more) the people who come here and ask questions aren't doing so to help them with some problem they are having at school or other, I think you are really are probably quite dellusional.

    But then, this does seem to be becoming somewhat of a pattern.
    And the stardard requirement is that the work not be for credit in a class and that the OP post the work that he has done.

    You failed on two counts. At least.

    Your words are close enough to a confession to convince at least me of your intent.
     

  80. #79  
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    I met the requirement for posting the work I had done. Or did you miss the big pile of dinosuar doodoo at the start of this thread. This was more than sufficient in the context of what I was trying to achive.

    I admitted it was pants, but there we are, if we go back over this again it really will start to feel very old.

    Also, as I said asking how to do something isn't wrong - and that's all I have ever asked.

    You again award yourself with far more credit in my estimations than you in actual fact warrant. You are not my confessor. At best you are a minor irrtant in my efforts to learn something useful, that not only could I apply now, but throught the remainder of the time I spend in accdemia too.

    I'm sorry if this has the unfortunate effect (as recent evidence would appear to suggest) of completely and inexplicably pissing you off.

    But ho hum.
     

  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by raid517
    I met the requirement for posting the work I had done. Or did you miss the big pile of dinosuar doodoo at the start of this thread. This was more than sufficient in the context of what I was trying to achive.

    I admitted it was pants, but there we are, if we go back over this again it really will start to feel very old.

    Also, as I said asking how to do something isn't wrong - and that's all I have ever asked.

    You again award yourself with far more credit in my estimations than you in actual fact warrant. You are not my confessor. At best you are a minor irrtant in my efforts to learn something useful, that not only could I apply now, but throught the remainder of the time I spend in accdemia too.

    I'm sorry if this has the unfortunate effect (as recent evidence would appear to suggest) of completely and inexplicably pissing you off.

    But ho hum.
    Your big pile of dinosaur doodoo failed miserably as any serious attempt to present data or an analysis of data. You have offered nothing since. You have offered no evidence whatever of interest in learning, and indeed by failing to respond to the suggestions that were offered have declined the opportunity to do so.

    You have assiduously avoided the questions and suggestions designed to help you learn, rather asking that someone "tell you how to do it". That is cheating, pure and simple.

    Your problem is not simply an issue of computer graphics, and if it were you are in the wrong forum. This is a mathematics forum. The subject matter is mathematics and the application of mathematics. Analysis of data is one such application. Your problem is lack of ability to present a cogent analysis of data. The data, the details of which you refuse to show us, but the general character of which is quite common is readily amenable to standard methods of analysis. That analysis would be at least initiated had you responded to the initial comments and questions, which you chose not to do. Attempting to disguise the issue as one of presentatin is dishonest. The real issue is first, a simple analysis of two functions at a level commensurate with ordinary high school mathematics and only secondarily how one would present that anlaysis. Metods of presentation are actually relatively obvious if one understands the content of the required analysis.

    The effect of asking someone "how to do it" is to place the burden of demonstrating the necessary analytical techniques and skills on the responder to your request. That is simply not appropriate in this situation.

    No matter how you chose to attempt to disguise it, you are asking that someone else provide the analysis of the data for which you are being held responsible in your class. That is cheating.
     

  82. #81  
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    Mod note:

    I am about to lock this thread, but first let me make my position crystal clear.

    This is YOUR forum, not mine, and, as far as I am able, I try to allow you, the members, determine what form it should take. This includes the extent to which help with assignments is asked for and given. My view is similar to Rocket's, and is outlined in the sticky above. but is not a dictat.

    Likewise the manner in which members address each other is their business, not mine. So if you all are comfortable with a certain level of hostility, that's up to you. That said, I believe I have the right to set some limits to this, and act when I think these limits have been exceeded.

    I believe I also have the duty to ensure that there is at least some mathematical content to the majority (but perhaps not all) posts that appear here.

    It seems to me this thread is starting to fail on all counts, so without pointing any fingers, this thread is now locked.

    As always, if any member think I have acted inappropriately, contact me or an admin by PM
     

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