Thread: Mod title: Educational credentials

Originally Posted by esbo

Originally Posted by Guitarist

esbo: You are clearly confused about the theoretical basis of the differential calculus.

Say what, if you ask a genuine question on this subject, phrased like, oh, I dunno, "please help me on this, I am so confused....", we have members here who would be more that willing to help you. Listen to them, learn from them, they are experienced teachers.

And you are confused.

I am not confused at all, I am just pointing out that a point is not a line.

I learn best by working things out for my self, I basically taught me self all the maths I know and I got the highest grade in my school, maybe higher than the grade my teacher himself achieved at that level, I certaintly got the same grade as my Chemistry teacher and I considered Chemistry my weakest subject.
So I can't have bbeen a bad teacher then can I as I achieved better results or equal than my teachers pupils in three subjects nobody achieved a higher grade than me and in one subject I was higher than my nearest rival by two whole grades.

How would that rate me as a teacher?

that all depends on where you went to school, and also what classes you took.

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

that all depends on where you went to school, and also what classes you took.

In what way? I went to a comprehensive school and took maths physics and chemistry at advanced level.
Non selective school, as are all state scgools, with about 180 in a year of which about 20% stayed on to advanced level. And it was one of the better schools in the area.

what level of mathematics have you reached esbo?

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

what level of mathematics have you reached esbo?

I got A level grade 'B' not sure which country you are but I found this comparision with UK and USA qualifications, not sureif I understand it.
I then did a degree in electronics with subsiduary mathematics although I hardly attended any of the maths classes, maybe about 5.
Incidenetly a 'B' then is probaly equivilant ot an A now!



In the US you take more standardised classes (unless you are an exceptional student) throughout High School and you finish when you are 18 - if you pass enough classes then you get credits which will gain you your High School Diploma (you also get a Grade Point Average (GPA) which is an indication of how good your pass was (equivalent of B+ or A or whatever). A 4.0 GPA is a like an A at A-Level.

More advanced students can take honors classes at high school, which can boost their GPA to over 4.0 (4.8 for example) and prepares them for a more prestigious university.

I'm in the US, and I finished Triginometry/pre-calculus in HS, and am taking my Final for 3rd semester college calculus on tuesday. so far, I've gotten A's and B's in just about all of my math classes (2nd semester calc, integration, I netted a C.) and I have only seen rather rudimentary things in all of them. I was curious of 'level' more as a what was the title of the last class you took?

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

I'm in the US, and I finished Triginometry/pre-calculus in HS, and am taking my Final for 3rd semester college calculus on tuesday. so far, I've gotten A's and B's in just about all of my math classes (2nd semester calc, integration, I netted a C.) and I have only seen rather rudimentary things in all of them. I was curious of 'level' more as a what was the title of the last class you took?

I don't understand the USA system really.
I will explain the UK one.
At age 15-16 you take GSCE's (general vertifcate of secondary education), you can take several subjects, for example I took 9 and got grades A in maths physics and chemistry, B in greography and Eng Lit, B, and C in French, German, Eng lang and religion. so that is 9 GCSE's in all. (C and above is a 'pass').
Most people leave school after their GCSE's at 16ish.

I stayed on to do 'A' levels (Advanced levels), in Matths Physics, Chemistry, and General Studies. I got grades 'B' 'B' 'B' and 'E' respectively. 'E' and above is considered a 'pass' (ABDCE grades pass).
General studies is a 'joke' suject their is no sylabus and we only had one or two 'lessons' for it so ignore it, most employers do.
'A' levels are taken at 18 usually so it is a two year course effectively.

After that is was a 3 year degree couse at University in Electronics with subsiduary maths ('a bit of maths') that was from age 18 - 21.
I only got a third class degree. The level are in descending order.
First:
Two One:
Two Two:
Third:
Pass.

They seem to be loosely based on the British Class system

I knid of lost interest when I did not get into a top university I didn't much lilke electronics anyway I like the pure sciences but I figured electronics was better for a real world job.

I don't really understand your school system so it would be easier if you gave the age exams are usually taken at.

HS ends at 15-16 I believe?
You can take higher degrees than my 'ordinary' degree (called a "Bachellor of Science") after you have an ordinary degree, but I don't know much about them.
The are called PHd's (Doctor of Philosophy).

Okay, I understand it more. You really don't understand upper level mathematics at all, you likely accomplished the equivalent of 1st semester calculus. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you were taught/tested on, in that what is the limit of what what you have learned to this point. I know both the docter and salsa have PHd's Philosophical doctorates (doctorate of science) which is the same thing in the UK as in the US. and if I'm not mistaken they both have their degrees in Pure math? (I know salsa confirmed that, I suspect the docter did too) The university level education is standardized across the planet, i.e. a phd from the UK is the same as in US is the same as in India is the same as in China. the difference is the ammount of credibility and that varies by school. The Primary schooling however is much different, country to country. 'A level math' means absolutely nothing to me.

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

Okay, I understand it more. You really don't understand upper level mathematics at all, you likely accomplished the equivalent of 1st semester calculus. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you were taught/tested on, in that what is the limit of what what you have learned to this point. I know both the docter and salsa have PHd's Philosophical doctorates (doctorate of science) which is the same thing in the UK as in the US. and if I'm not mistaken they both have their degrees in Pure math? (I know salsa confirmed that, I suspect the docter did too) The university level education is standardized across the planet, i.e. a phd from the UK is the same as in US is the same as in India is the same as in China. the difference is the ammount of credibility and that varies by school. The Primary schooling however is much different, country to country. 'A level math' means absolutely nothing to me.

Ph.D.s are not the same in different countries--at least not in math. While other countries may have superior highschool and college education, at the graduate level, the U.S. is second to none. There's a reason why so many talented foreign students choose to earn their graduate degrees in the U.S.

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

Okay, I understand it more. You really don't understand upper level mathematics at all, you likely accomplished the equivalent of 1st semester calculus. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you were taught/tested on, in that what is the limit of what what you have learned to this point. I know both the docter and salsa have PHd's Philosophical doctorates (doctorate of science) which is the same thing in the UK as in the US. and if I'm not mistaken they both have their degrees in Pure math? (I know salsa confirmed that, I suspect the docter did too) The university level education is standardized across the planet, i.e. a phd from the UK is the same as in US is the same as in India is the same as in China. the difference is the ammount of credibility and that varies by school. The Primary schooling however is much different, country to country. 'A level math' means absolutely nothing to me.

I don't think it is fair for you to say I don't understand upper level maths, I did some maths at Unni and I had no trouble understandinng the few bits I attended so I don't think there is anything I won't unnderstand. anyway could you expalin the USA system interms of ages as I asked so it is easier for me to understand?
The third semster for example that means nothing to me.
Aslo I don't think having studied to a particular level prevents me being able to understand any question about maths particularly if it is termed in non-coded language, ie the name given to a particular theroem, saves me havnig to look it up. I am not to sure how US degrees compare to UK ones the impression I got from one site was they were not necessarilly equivilent, but anyhow not having taken a particular mathematical couse has absolutely no bearing on my ability to understand mathematics or get the correct answer of a maths problem, what matters is whether the answer is correct not what level of maths you studied, I am sure we agree that whether an answer is correct is based solely on the correctness of the answer not on the level to which the person answering the question studied, so in that respect qualification are entirely irrelevant.

Maths is logic so it is independant of qualification level to understand.

Originally Posted by salsaonline

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

Okay, I understand it more. You really don't understand upper level mathematics at all, you likely accomplished the equivalent of 1st semester calculus. I'm just trying to get a feel for what you were taught/tested on, in that what is the limit of what what you have learned to this point. I know both the docter and salsa have PHd's Philosophical doctorates (doctorate of science) which is the same thing in the UK as in the US. and if I'm not mistaken they both have their degrees in Pure math? (I know salsa confirmed that, I suspect the docter did too) The university level education is standardized across the planet, i.e. a phd from the UK is the same as in US is the same as in India is the same as in China. the difference is the ammount of credibility and that varies by school. The Primary schooling however is much different, country to country. 'A level math' means absolutely nothing to me.

Ph.D.s are not the same in different countries--at least not in math. While other countries may have superior highschool and college education, at the graduate level, the U.S. is second to none. There's a reason why so many talented foreign students choose to earn their graduate degrees in the U.S.

There is a reason why many Mexican drug dealers come to deal drdugs in the USA , but it is nothing to do with the quality of the education there

You might find some irony in that some where!!

Another point is many people don't go to say Russian universities because they can't speak one word of the language.

Originally Posted by esbo

Another point is many people don't go to say Russian universities because they can't speak one word of the language.

Obviously. But I'm referring to the fact that so many exemplary young Russian mathematicians come to the U.S. to get their Ph.D.s.

Originally Posted by salsaonline

Originally Posted by esbo

Another point is many people don't go to say Russian universities because they can't speak one word of the language.

Obviously. But I'm referring to the fact that so many exemplary young Russian mathematicians come to the U.S. to get their Ph.D.s.

Yes but you will find most young Russians second language, is English so that makes choosing, France , Germay, India, China, North Kore or Afghanistan somewhat more difficult, And anyhow their choice is likely to affected by economic matters such as getting a work visa s much as anything else.


Consider this question actually from a person in the UK who is considering doing a degree in the USA, the prime motivatino there seems not to be the quality of the education but whether it will help them get a work visa, indeed there seem so concern in the question about the quality if US degrees - "would my US degree still be worth something in the UK?".
Also looking further atthe answers don't look too promising "Sister went back to UK with a US degree, employers rolled around on the floor laughing."
Obviously that is only anecdotal evidence.

It does seem that there is some concern about the quality of a US degree in terms of specialisation, it seems perhaps to me that your degrees seem to cover the sort of material that is considered 'A' level in the UK.

Anyway nobody seems to be abe to describe the US qualification levels to me clearly from the answers I have recieved so far.

Just for a joke do they teach geography to degree level in the USA

Originally Posted by esbo

Yes but you will find most young Russians second language, is English so that makes choosing, France , Germay, India, China, North Kore or Afghanistan somewhat more difficult, And anyhow their choice is likely to affected by economic matters such as getting a work visa s much as anything else.

All I know is that if you ask foreign students why they chose to come to the US for their graduate degree, they typically claim that's because graduate math programs are better and more active in the US than in their home country.

Originally Posted by salsaonline

Originally Posted by esbo

Yes but you will find most young Russians second language, is English so that makes choosing, France , Germay, India, China, North Kore or Afghanistan somewhat more difficult, And anyhow their choice is likely to affected by economic matters such as getting a work visa s much as anything else.

All I know is that if you ask foreign students why they chose to come to the US for their graduate degree, they typically claim that's because graduate math programs are better and more active in the US than in their home country.

Yea well saying they are only there so they can get a work visa because they can earn ten time more in the US would not go down too well would it?
But anyway the quality of the university make no difference to the ability of the student.

Originally Posted by esbo

Yea well saying they are only there so they can get a work visa because they can earn ten time more in the US would not go down too well would it?
But anyway the quality of the university make no difference to the ability of the student.

Dude, graduate students in pure math make poverty wages. If you're coming to study in the US for the money, seems like a dumb way to go about things. Especially since it's much harder for foreign students to get financial aid in the US than it is for US citizens.

You need to acknowledge the possibility that you might not know what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

I'm really new to the act of formulating proofs, and would like some pointers, even tutorials, in the basics of doing so.

Mod note So, how do we all stand on this opening post now?

Are you all now happy to chat about the unquantifiable difference between degrees here there and everywhere? I am cool with that, if you all are, but concerns have been raised about the later content of this thread.

Any strong opinions, PM me.

Originally Posted by salsaonline

Originally Posted by esbo

Yea well saying they are only there so they can get a work visa because they can earn ten time more in the US would not go down too well would it?
But anyway the quality of the university make no difference to the ability of the student.

Dude, graduate students in pure math make poverty wages. If you're coming to study in the US for the money, seems like a dumb way to go about things. Especially since it's much harder for foreign students to get financial aid in the US than it is for US citizens.

You need to acknowledge the possibility that you might not know what you're talking about.

The possibilty that I don't know what I am talking about is



Students come to the US so they can get a work visa in the US.
Poverty wages in the USA is better than Poverty wage in Mexico and of course they don't have to take a job in pure maths, they might find the billions avaiilable in banking more attractive, especially as you don't even have to understand maths or indeed know how to add 2+2.

It is somewhat odd that despite having the top maths university professors available as advisors they were unable to understand simple household arithmatic, how very odd indeed and of course they also had the best economic and business universities in world

So perhaps a real world test of their maths skills, rather than the opinions of their friends and colleagues, found them somewhat wanting?
Would it fair to say that, or would it be unfair?

Rather surpprising that the countries with the best maths universites in the world have biggest ecomomic crisises?

Originally Posted by Guitarist

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

I'm really new to the act of formulating proofs, and would like some pointers, even tutorials, in the basics of doing so.

Mod note So, how do we all stand on this opening post now?

Are you all now happy to chat about the unquantifiable difference between degrees here there and everywhere? I am cool with that, if you all are, but concerns have been raised about the later content of this thread.

Any strong opinions, PM me.

I think there is relevance in much of this becaus ehe asked about proofs and what a proof is. There seems to be perhaps some though that something is a proof if the 'top experts' agree it is a proof and indeed that may well be th case.

But I think we need to remember the old adage "The proof of the pudding is in the eating", despite what the opinions of the 'top chefs' are.
So I think for proof we need to look to the real world somewhat, as humans are falible and the real world validation is the ultimate test?

esbo: Clock's ticking. Try to stay on topic (can you remember what it is?). If all others agree, then you can discuss the relative merits of US vs EU education among yourselves, though it's not a debate that interests me greatly. You all can decide

But in terms of math discussions, which is where we are supposed to be.... be nice, be as humble as your present level of education suggests you should be, and try to learn from those here who are clearly more knowledgeable than you are, and seem to be losing patience.

Above all, lay off the personal comments.

I have tried to get you on board with this via PM. Now it's your turn to try.

Originally Posted by Guitarist

esbo: Clock's ticking. Try to stay on topic (can you remember what it is?). If all others agree, then you can discuss the relative merits of US vs EU education among yourselves, though it's not a debate that interests me greatly. You all can decide

But in terms of math discussions, which is where we are supposed to be.... be nice, be as humble as your present level of education suggests you should be, and try to learn from those here who are clearly more knowledgeable than you are, and seem to be losing patience.

Above all, lay off the personal comments.

I have tried to get you on board with this via PM. Now it's your turn to try.

I am as humble as my mathematical ability merits

I am always willing to learn from those more knowlegable although it is quite often quit difficult for someonoe who signnificantly outperformed his peer in technnial subject to find such people. I am always willing to acknowledge those I consider more intelligent than me and I am always ready to thank people who have been helpful.

I am sure you will like me condem those who make snide condescending and snotty remarks because apart from anything else it degrades the person making the remarks, and shows them in their true light as weak and pathetic characters only fit for the gutter where they belong. I am sure we can both agree on that.

Originally Posted by esbo

I am sure you will like me condem those who make snide condescending and snotty remarks because apart from anything else it degrades the person making the remarks, as shows them in their true light as weak and pathetic characters. I am sure we can both agree on that.

You know, part of the experience of learning mathematics involves being around jerky, condescending people. Don't act like you're the only one who has had to go through it. My friends who were successful in school were able to shrug off the occasional insulting remarks they heard from professors, and concentrate on expanding their knowledge.

Originally Posted by salsaonline

Originally Posted by esbo

I am sure you will like me condem those who make snide condescending and snotty remarks because apart from anything else it degrades the person making the remarks, as shows them in their true light as weak and pathetic characters. I am sure we can both agree on that.

You know, part of the experience of learning mathematics involves being around jerky, condescending people. Don't act like you're the only one who has had to go through it. My friends who were successful in school were able to shrug off the occasional insulting remarks they heard from professors, and concentrate on expanding their knowledge.

I was fortunate that I never got any condescending remarks from my teachers, not the ones who knew me well anyway. the worst I had was from tempory Chemistry when he was handing the results of a mock 'A' level, he said had expected to come last as I never appeared to do any work or take interest in the class (soomething like that anyway I can't remember now. Anyway I came first indeed I was the only to pass the exam, everyone else failed, I got grade D (abcde) are pass grades, after 1 year of a two year course, I ebded up getting a B.
The thing is with me I can figure things for myself.

Also at British Univerisiite Professors just give lectures, there don't teach or talk
to pupils as they would in high school, anyhow I didin't really attend amy classes.
But I was still able to attain a degree basically without turning up, so they could not give condescending remarks as I would have been down the pub getting pissed It's basically a question of working things out for yourself.

I have received a request from the "owner" of this thread to split it, roughly at the point where we digressed into qualifications, relative merits of different educational systems etc.

I feel obliged to give this request serious consideration. Your thoughts, please, before I act.

Originally Posted by Guitarist

I have received a request from the "owner" of this thread to split it, roughly at the point where we digressed into qualifications, relative merits of different educational systems etc.

I feel obliged to give this request serious consideration. Your thoughts, please, before I act.

It seems to me that the merits of education systems are part and parcle of a proof, as proofs seem to be verified by 'experts' who are the products of educational systems?
Also when discussinig the merits of educational system there may and probably should be a need to provide a proof the merits of an educational system.
So it may be hard to seperate the two?
I am not bothered either way.