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Thread: Force of illusion caused by delusion

  1. #1 Force of illusion caused by delusion 
    Forum Ph.D. merumario's Avatar
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    we are considering forces that are not real but because of wrong theories we feel there is another kind of force for example;

    lets consider ourselves as if we are still in the in the stone age...and we are thinking that earth is flat.


    if i and a friend in this forum lets say merumario and strange.we start a task to head to the north pole.

    we marked our starting line at the equator and with a specific distance from each other.

    as we approach the north pole we begin to see that we are getting closer to each other...although we kept our lines.

    with the theory of earth been flat we then would think that there is a force pulling us close to each other. that force then becomes a force of illusion caused by delusion.


    the question i have from the whole stuff is this;


    why does the moon and sun appear bigger at the horizon?


    my best answer is;an illusion of our consciousness.but to what causes it i do not know.if i am right then what causes it?

    if i am not right what then is the answer ppl?


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    I don't know what causes the sun to seem bigger at the horizon... But i'm sure it's not a force of illusion caused by delusion... (lol).

    I imagine, that our atmosphere sidtorts the light ray from the sun. When we view the sun on the horizon the we view it through maximum atmosphere, which means maximum distortion of light.

    So the light distorts or bends a little in every dirrection causing the sun to appear bigger.

    I don't think an illusion can be caused by delusion... but delusion can probably be caused by illusion.

    You will need a scientist to conform that in complicated language... I'm offering an educated guess.

    It is a mirage... as the light you see of the sun on the horizon is around 8 minutes old. The sun has moved on 8 minutes from where it seems to be... that means it's all ready set over the horizon, even though it appears in the sky.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D. merumario's Avatar
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    i did not say its caused by delusion but my answer was that its an illusion.

    that example of delusion is to show how we can assume that things exist when they dont.

    on the other hand i think your idea is good.

    lets wait for others to put their thoughts.
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  5. #4  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by merumario View Post
    as we approach the north pole we begin to see that we are getting closer to each other...although we kept our lines.

    with the theory of earth been flat we then would think that there is a force pulling us close to each other.
    That is actually a reasonably good analogy for how general relativity explains gravity.

    why does the moon and sun appear bigger at the horizon?

    my best answer is;an illusion of our consciousness.but to what causes it i do not know.if i am right then what causes it?
    It is (obviously) an illusion. But, interestingly, it is not well understood why it happens. It may be partly due to having other things to compare to near the horizon. It may be partly due to how our brain estimates the distance of objects if they are high up or low down. No one really knows.
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    Quote Originally Posted by merumario View Post
    i did not say its caused by delusion but my answer was that its an illusion.

    that example of delusion is to show how we can assume that things exist when they dont.
    I don't have my dictionary to hand... but I think an illusion is a thing that isn't as it seems (as you know).
    But a delusion... is nothing to do with a thing being different from how it seems, it's just when a person chooses to veiw it differently from how it seems.

    Delusion is something of a person or mind... illusion is external... if you know what I mean?

    So an external illusion is never caused by an internal delusion... but an external illusion can create an internal delusion.

    A person can be deluded, but not illusioned. They can become disillusioned with an illusion, but they can never be an illusion.

    I was just trying to say I think the sentance 'illusion caused by delusion' is the wrong way round. Delusion can be caused by illusion... I personally don't think at the minute, that illusion is caused by delusion...

    The more I think about it, the more I think i'm probably wrong... either way, no offence intended. Will look the words up later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    It is (obviously) an illusion. But, interestingly, it is not well understood why it happens. It may be partly due to having other things to compare to near the horizon. It may be partly due to how our brain estimates the distance of objects if they are high up or low down. No one really knows.
    Am I correct in thinking that the sun very much varies in size as it sets on the horizon? sometimes it seems much bigger. Would this be realated more to the earths distance to the sun, or the thickness of atmosphere? all of the above? something else?

    You say it's obviously an illusion strange... but I think it more obvious that the sun has some supper before bed time and this makes it seem bigger round the belly.
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  8. #7  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    You are right. It was probably wrong to say "obviously" an illusion. There are also atmospheric effects that can cause the sun to look different. But I think that if you measure the angular diameter, any actual change is far smaller than the apparent change.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    You are right. It was probably wrong to say "obviously" an illusion. There are also atmospheric effects that can cause the sun to look different. But I think that if you measure the angular diameter, any actual change is far smaller than the apparent change.
    I say the most silly, childish, not even funny thing, as a joke.... annd finally strange concedes that i'm right about something!

    Seriously now then... this has got me thinking about what exactly is an illusion?

    Then sun stays the same size throughout the day we can presume... so if it is the atmosphere causing the sun to appear bigger... is that even an illusion?
    It seems to me, no more of an illusion than anything else... My room is black and yet light makes it appear to be all these different colours... light is creating an illusion? Is everything an illusion in someway of other?

    Back to your last comment strange... what you mean angilar diametre... what actual change and apparent change are you talking about?
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  10. #9  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    The Earth's orbit has only minor eccentricity and therefore the distance from the sun varies by no more than 3 1/2%. This has a very small effect on the suns angular diameter. I leave it as an exercise for yourself to work out whan that change is. I shall say that it is not large enough to be noticeable to the human eye. Changes in the actual diameter of the sun are even less significant - at least an order of magnitude less, I think. Therefore, any change in the suns diameter that we peceive is a consequence of atmospheric distortion and neurological processing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I leave it as an exercise for yourself to work out whan that change is. I shall say that it is not large enough to be noticeable to the human eye.
    I'm not going to look up the orbit and apegee perigee etc etc just yet.

    Dec 21 to June 21 the sun gradually appears larger in the north and smaller in the south of the globe. June 21 to Dec 21 is vice versa... Due to the earths tilt...?

    But then there would be an effect if the earth is on an ellipitial orbit... when the earth is at it's perigee (closest point?)... When in the year does the perigee happen? I have no clue. from the northerm hemisphere's perspective i'd say it's in the summer solstice on june 21.

    Also the angle of the tilt of the earths axis varies... I can't remeber how long this takes or by how many degrees.. it's about 25 thousand years isn't it? the wobble.
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  12. #11  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    [Dec 21 to June 21 the sun gradually appears larger in the north and smaller in the south of the globe. June 21 to Dec 21 is vice versa....
    Says who?

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    But then there would be an effect if the earth is on an ellipitial orbit... when the earth is at it's perigee (closest point?)... When in the year does the perigee happen? I have no clue. from the northerm hemisphere's perspective i'd say it's in the summer solstice on june 21.

    Also the angle of the tilt of the earths axis varies... I can't remeber how long this takes or by how many degrees.. it's about 25 thousand years isn't it? the wobble.
    Neither of these has any detectable influence on the perceived size of the sun.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by merumario View Post
    why does the moon and sun appear bigger at the horizon?


    my best answer is;an illusion of our consciousness.but to what causes it i do not know.if i am right then what causes it?

    if i am not right what then is the answer ppl?
    See Moon illusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    We know that the moon's size isn't actually changing, nor is the angle it subtends. The precise cause of the illusion, though, is not completely settled. But there is agreement that our brains simply are not estimating size properly. Part of the problem is that we don't fully understand how we estimate size -- we take in a variety of cues and use them to do the mental calculation, but the algorithm (if there is one) is as yet incompletely understood.
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  14. #13  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    So ... atmospheric effects. The sun does sometimes appear "flattened" / oblate (or even split in two) when very near the horizon. I assume this distortion is only reducing the vertical radius, not stretching it horizontally?

    Oh look. I can answer my own question: Flattened Suns

    When the lower limb of the Sun just touches the sea horizon the whole Sun has actually already set
    Cool.

    Well worth browsing that site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    [Dec 21 to June 21 the sun gradually appears larger in the north and smaller in the south of the globe. June 21 to Dec 21 is vice versa....
    Says who?
    Me, I was trying to rise to your challenge of working out when the sun appears bigger and smaller... This was my guess for the yearly cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    But then there would be an effect if the earth is on an ellipitial orbit... when the earth is at it's perigee (closest point?)... When in the year does the perigee happen? I have no clue. from the northerm hemisphere's perspective i'd say it's in the summer solstice on june 21.

    Also the angle of the tilt of the earths axis varies... I can't remeber how long this takes or by how many degrees.. it's about 25 thousand years isn't it? the wobble.
    Neither of these has any detectable influence on the perceived size of the sun.
    Ok, well as for a yearly thing I have no clue...

    Back to the thread and the stuff about the sun looking bigger on the horizon... my guess is that it's light bending through the atmosphere...

    Are their times when the thickness or density of the atmosphere varies? Resulting in more or less exagerated 'illusion' of the sun's diametre?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I can answer my own question: Flattened Suns

    When the lower limb of the Sun just touches the sea horizon the whole Sun has actually already set
    Cool.

    Well worth browsing that site.
    That site doesn't say anything about the fact that light is taking 8 minutes to reach us from the sun... That 8 minutes is probably equivalent to the sun travelling it's diametre across the sky. We'r watching a delayed sun all day long... so even when we see a refracted sunset of a sun that has already gone below the horizon, we must also consider that the refracted sunset we are watching is light that left the sun 8 minutes ago, meaning the sun is really even further bellow the horizon than one diametre... that's a double optical illusion.
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  17. #16  
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    If I HAD to guess I would say it is actually an optical illusion? Maybe the light refracts/diffracts differently due it the relative angle of the body (In this case the Sun/Moon) to the Ionosphere. The angular momentum of the earth may also play a role. This is assuming your not actually just crazy I've never noticed it, and I don't intend to look at the soon anytime sun. :P
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  18. #17  
    Forum Ph.D. merumario's Avatar
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    well done folks.


    its caused by refraction of d sun's ray,due to our atmosphere.

    all heavenly bodies seem not at their actual point when viewed from earth although we can make correction on this error by knowing the refractive index of the earth.

    the sun appears bigger when it sets at below the horizon.an observer from earth sees it as above the horizon or exactly at the horizon...this refraction and the atmosphere causes a desortion...scattering the ray.this occurs at a specific angle of incidence and refraction(maybe some group of angles).

    it then is an illusion caused by the refraction of light passing the earths atmosphere....
    such a mirage caused by total internal reflection.
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