Notices
Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Berlin 1936-Beijing 2008....Similarities?

  1. #1 Berlin 1936-Beijing 2008....Similarities? 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    4,981
    I wasn't around in 1936 for Hitler's Olympic Games but I've been reading a few articles that suggest history is repeating itself as the Chinese games approach.

    Human rights issues, totalitarian state, amassing of a very strong military force, and suppressing the malcontentious Tibetans just to present a rosier vista of China to the world.

    I'm fine with a country trying to make itself presentable, it's a similarity I can live with but what's going to happen after the games are over? Will it be Liebenstraum all over again? Can we expect military manoeuvring in order for China to expand their borders? Will history repeat and should we be ready for something drastic?

    Curious as to what people think.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    956
    Why do people always have to bring politics into sports? :?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    I think it doesn't make any sense to compare China with Nazi Germany.

    In the past China has done some nasty things against the Tibetans, and clearly the situation still isn't as it should be. But is the situation worse than Chechnya, or Kosovo under Milosevic? Should we compare Russia and Serbia to Nazi Germany as well? Then the comparison becomes meaningless.

    At the 1936 Olympics Germany was promoting its ideology of racial purity, they were showing off healthy blonde youth while mentally ill people were being murdered and Jews were being mistreated in horrible ways. I don't see how China would use the Olympics for such a purpose (this may sound obvious, but this is what you're suggesting).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    4,981
    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Why do people always have to bring politics into sports? :?
    Maybe we could make politics an Olympic event.

    I don't see how China would use the Olympics for such a purpose (this may sound obvious, but this is what you're suggesting).
    I'm not suggesting anything and I'd wager that your sentiment somewhat echoes words uttered in 1936 but without a prior Olympics to compare to.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Junior Zitterbewegung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    217
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I think it doesn't make any sense to compare China with Nazi Germany.
    I beg to differ. Both were/are absolutistic "governments" with no respect for human life whatsoever. They're both extremely nationalistic and both use the olympics for propaganda purposes. So, yes it makes perfect sense to compare them.

    Given, the Cinese do not exterminated one racial group with industrial means and careful planning but in the modern world this would be harder to hide than 1941-1945 and it would also be bad for the business.

    .
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    956
    Quote Originally Posted by Zitterbewegung
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I think it doesn't make any sense to compare China with Nazi Germany.
    I beg to differ. Both were/are absolutistic "governments" with no respect for human life whatsoever. They're both extremely nationalistic and both use the olympics for propaganda purposes. So, yes it makes perfect sense to compare them.

    Given, the Cinese do not exterminated one racial group with industrial means and careful planning but in the modern world this would be harder to hide than 1941-1945 and it would also be bad for the business.

    .
    Is this paranoia gone crazy, or what? In that case, be thankful that the Olympic Games are being held in China, not the Middle East!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore CShark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    East Coast of Canada
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Why do people always have to bring politics into sports? :?

    My sentiments exactly Jane! The protests have no place in the games, as much as I may support a 'free Tibet', using the Olympics for anything other than sport, is wrong.

    Someone here complained how the Chinese are 'nationalistic and use propaganda'....gee, who does that remind me of ? I know, every country that has hosted the games.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Nederland
    Posts
    1,085
    Quote Originally Posted by CShark
    Someone here complained how the Chinese are 'nationalistic and use propaganda'....gee, who does that remind me of ? I know, every country that has hosted the games.
    Agreed.

    It's not at all a unique characteristic for China. Sure nationalism is quite strong in China at the moment, as it is in most Asian countries and in many countries that are transforming to a more open society (compare the former Soviet republics for example: many of them are hotbeds of nationalism, for better or worse). But that doesn't warrant a comparison with Nazi Germany. Hitler's nationalism included such ideas as conquering other ethnicities to use them as slaves, and blaming one ethnic group for all problems of the country; the idea that other countries and peoples can be used in any way that benefits 'the motherland'. Where do you see this in China?
    And without the component of racial supremacy thinking any comparison with the Nazi's is meaningless. Ever heard about the superior han-Chinese, destined to conquer and dominate all others? I haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zitterbewegung
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon
    I think it doesn't make any sense to compare China with Nazi Germany.
    I beg to differ. Both were/are absolutistic "governments" with no respect for human life whatsoever. They're both extremely nationalistic and both use the olympics for propaganda purposes. So, yes it makes perfect sense to compare them..
    That leaves only the absolutistic government and the lack of respect for human life, which again are incomparable to that of the Nazi's. And again you have to ask yourself how unique these atributes are.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    My concern with China is the nature of its nationalistic propaganda. They talk about centuries of being oppressed and humiliated by all the other countries of the world. The logical next step is to argue that, if they *were* to attack and seize land from India, Russia, or whoever else they feel like, it would merely be justice/restitution.

    Every nation that wants to go warlike has to make the "I'm being persecuted" argument, so that it won't be counted as aggression in the sense of MADD. They seem to hope that if it's not seen as genuine aggression, it won't trigger nuclear retaliation from anyone.

    Isreal's the same way with the Palis. They seem to think that, no matter what they do, it can never be aggression because they were persecuted so much. Come to think of it.... so is the USA with 911 and Iraq.


    Quote Originally Posted by JaneBennet
    Why do people always have to bring politics into sports? :?
    Um.... the Olympics never had a non-political purpose. I'm pretty sure the sports part honestly is meant to be secondary to the political part even today.

    It was started as a means to bring countries together. In ancient times it was a good way to show off your military might. Countries could determine non-violently who had the fastest messengers, the longest range spear throwers, and the most proficient wrestlers.... etc. Because in those days 90% of all warfare was athletic in nature.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,150
    China? The Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind


    Military bases outside their own country: US hundreds in over a hundred countries, China: ?

    Bombing in Libia: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Yugoslavia: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Panama: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Afghanistan: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Iraq: US yes, China no
    Threat to bombing Iran: US yes, China no

    Bombing of another country's embassy: US yes(China's), China no

    Funding of Islamic extremists: US yes, China no
    Military occupation of Oil fields: US yes, China no

    Cities Nuked with Atom Bomb: US 2, China 0

    Killing civilians in Europe while blaming communists terrorist: US(nato) yes, China no

    Supporting Coup d'Etat against elected Iranian government(ajax): US yes, China no
    Supporting Coup d'Etat against elected Chilean government: US yes, China no
    Supporting Coup d'Etat against various other elected South/Central American countries(Guatemala, Honduras, Venezuella, Haiti): US yes, China no
    Flying rendition torture-chamber planes over other countries: US yes, China no

    Syphilis experimentation on people of African origin(up to 70s): US yes, China no

    World Rank in weapons export: US 1st, China 7th

    Millions of people in prison: US 2.3 million, China 1.6

    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Bah, China may not have foreign bases, but they use their UN veto to block action against the Sudan and Burma, while buying fuel and selling weapons to those totalitarian regimes.

    There is also increase Chinese money being put into Africa, and unlike American money it doesn't have strings attached. China props up just as many puppet governments as the USA, and in general the Chinese ones are much worse.

    Then their is the block of Taiwan's national status.

    Moreover, the situation in Tibet is quite comparable to a genocide. Han Chinese have been imported into Tibet at a rate that ethnic Chinese now outnumber ethnic Tibettans. The Tibettans were persecuted to the point where they could no longer practice their faith openly, arrest and re-education are quite common.

    Then there are the forced abortions that often end in infertility and death.

    China is apparently getting better and improving on many of these fronts, I don't think they are equal to the Nazi's, they are probably more comparable to the attrocities commited by Stalin in the early days of the USSR.

    Now onto the subject of the Olympics, they are not about sports. The modern Olympics were created as a symbol of world peace and cooperation, when a country is involved in actively disrupting world peace and is actively commiting attrocities it should not have the honour of hosting an event that celebrates those noble standards.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Junior Zitterbewegung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    217
    That leaves only the absolutistic government and the lack of respect for human life, which again are incomparable to that of the Nazi's. And again you have to ask yourself how unique these atributes are
    Yes, but Iwould also object to other countries with those attributes get awarded the Olympics to make a despiccaple regime look good to the outside world.

    Ever heard about the superior han-Chinese, destined to conquer and dominate all others? I haven't.
    You been to China before? I did and the Han Chinese actually Do think they are better than the rest of the world (2500 years of culture and inventors of paper, black-powder andsoonandsoforth) and they let everybody know and feel it. Check the reactions of the Chinese government after the visit of the Dalai Lama in Germany.

    And a country threatening to wage war just because the legally elected government of Taiwan does not behave like the Chinese want in my book qualifies as terroristic.

    Those, my Dears are the facts.
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Sophomore CShark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    East Coast of Canada
    Posts
    192
    Looks like this is turning into a 'let's bash China' thread. Whether or not a given country meets your personal standards of morality, ethics, or political correctiveness has nothing whatsover to do with the Olympics.
    Sadly, because the games are globally watched, it presents the perfect stage for any cause, political or otherwise. In my view, this is not the place for such protests, no matter how 'just' they may seem.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by CShark
    Looks like this is turning into a 'let's bash China' thread. Whether or not a given country meets your personal standards of morality, ethics, or political correctiveness has nothing whatsover to do with the Olympics.
    Sadly, because the games are globally watched, it presents the perfect stage for any cause, political or otherwise. In my view, this is not the place for such protests, no matter how 'just' they may seem.
    There are, of course, alternative points of view.

    For many of us, the boycott (and cricket started this) of South African sport through the '70s and '80s was justified. Perhaps this is because of the British notion of sportsmanship, but if a country cannot achieve the semblance of fairness, even to its own people, then how can we justify claiming that our sportspeople, playing them, are upholding any kind of ideal, Corinthian, Olympic or otherwise?

    I'm not saying this is a killer argument, and I do not want to deprecate those sportspeople for whom this is the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to achieve immortality, but I am saying it isn't an argument that can easily be dismissed. I truly believe the issues are more complicated than either extreme - sports and politics never to mix/all sport to be political.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Sophomore CShark's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    East Coast of Canada
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by CShark
    Looks like this is turning into a 'let's bash China' thread. Whether or not a given country meets your personal standards of morality, ethics, or political correctiveness has nothing whatsover to do with the Olympics.
    Sadly, because the games are globally watched, it presents the perfect stage for any cause, political or otherwise. In my view, this is not the place for such protests, no matter how 'just' they may seem.
    There are, of course, alternative points of view.

    For many of us, the boycott (and cricket started this) of South African sport through the '70s and '80s was justified. Perhaps this is because of the British notion of sportsmanship, but if a country cannot achieve the semblance of fairness, even to its own people, then how can we justify claiming that our sportspeople, playing them, are upholding any kind of ideal, Corinthian, Olympic or otherwise?

    I'm not saying this is a killer argument, and I do not want to deprecate those sportspeople for whom this is the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to achieve immortality, but I am saying it isn't an argument that can easily be dismissed. I truly believe the issues are more complicated than either extreme - sports and politics never to mix/all sport to be political.

    Well said.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo
    China? The Pot calling the kettle black comes to mind


    Military bases outside their own country: US hundreds in over a hundred countries, China: ?

    Bombing in Libia: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Yugoslavia: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Panama: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Afghanistan: US yes, China no
    Bombing in Iraq: US yes, China no
    Threat to bombing Iran: US yes, China no

    Bombing of another country's embassy: US yes(China's), China no
    China really doesn't have the technology to bomb all that well. Most of their planes are older planes purchased from the USSR and their level of computer technology to target those bombs is pretty much in the stone age.

    If China tried to bomb those places, people would laugh, not cry.


    Funding of Islamic extremists: US yes, China no
    Military occupation of Oil fields: US yes, China no
    I agree this is an important distinction.

    China needs oil too, and will increasingly need more, but most of the good places were laid claim to by the USA back when Chairman Mao Zedong was busy killing everyone smart enough to build a car.

    Cities Nuked with Atom Bomb: US 2, China 0
    Again the latecomer can always bluff about what they *would* have done *if* they had been in the position to do it. Japan was developing its own bomb, and much more successfully than the Nazis, so we might not have had a lot of choice.

    Killing civilians in Europe while blaming communists terrorist: US(nato) yes, China no
    Maybe, but I'd put my money on Isreali Mossad if I had to bet who was behind that.

    Supporting Coup d'Etat against elected Iranian government(ajax): US yes, China no
    Supporting Coup d'Etat against elected Chilean government: US yes, China no
    Supporting Coup d'Etat against various other elected South/Central American countries(Guatemala, Honduras, Venezuella, Haiti): US yes, China no
    True on all three counts. I'm pretty sure China actually can't be said to have done such things. We're going to have blood on our hands for several generations over some of the stuff we've let our CIA do to people.

    Flying rendition torture-chamber planes over other countries: US yes, China no
    Haven't heard of this, but I wouldn't rule it out either.

    Syphilis experimentation on people of African origin(up to 70s): US yes, China no
    That's an uncallable bluff. The Chinese government would have no trouble burying it if they did so.

    World Rank in weapons export: US 1st, China 7th
    There's a couple of ways to look at this too, but I kind of agree that it seems pretty sinister.


    Millions of people in prison: US 2.3 million, China 1.6

    I don't know why people always cite that figure like it's a bad thing. You'd rather all those criminals were out bothering people?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by CShark
    Looks like this is turning into a 'let's bash China' thread.
    Yeah, the thread's a magnet for those who need to hate, searching for reasons to and expression of.

    I am really tired of the snide remarks indulged at China's expense.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Junior Zitterbewegung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    217
    Quote Originally Posted by CShark
    Looks like this is turning into a 'let's bash China' thread. Whether or not a given country meets your personal standards of morality, ethics, or political correctiveness has nothing whatsover to do with the Olympics.
    Sadly, because the games are globally watched, it presents the perfect stage for any cause, political or otherwise. In my view, this is not the place for such protests, no matter how 'just' they may seem.
    Actually those are not my personal believes (well in a sense they are) but more or less humanistic views. I do not like people beeing shot in the head in football stadiums just for whatever reason the government sees fit (entertainment/deterrent or whatever). I dislike censorship and propaganda as reason d'etat. And fuck political correctness. If I were politically correct I would wouldn't call the diaperheads "diaperheads". But I would also strongly object the diaperheads oir the US as of today getting awarded the Olympics. And if I follow your reasoning there's no problem awarding the next Soccer World Championship to Burma. And the next Super Bowl to Cuba and The World Series to Iran. In your train of thoughts this does not make any difference whatsoever as this is just sport and has nothing to do with politics, nay?

    Actually this has more to do with business and less with politics.


    Just wake up..........
    I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Ph.D. Cat1981(England)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    South Downs.
    Posts
    913
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I am really tired of the snide remarks indulged at China's expense.
    As apposed to the statements made about America which i presume are fair game?
    Eat Dolphin, save the Tuna!!!!
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •