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Thread: The evolution of man...

  1. #1 The evolution of man... 
    Forum Freshman Elando's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure where to put this but here it goes...

    The evolution of man is very controversial. To quote my science teacher "Man would not of evolved without a number of certain 'coincidences' happening along the way." How is it, I ask, was it possible for us as a species to evolve away from chimps and monkeys to become the species we are today without some kind of 'intervention'?

    If anyone has seen 2001:Space Oddessy, you'll have some idea of what I mean. Surely these 'coincidences' were not just mearly created by chance. I do not belive that we just suddenly thought "hmm why is everyone walking around with their feet and knuckles? I'll just be different and just use my feet." There must of been something along the way that triggered something inside a normal chimp (or group of chimps) that caused them to walk upright and use tools. Things like this dont just happen on there own without insparation or intervention by another species.

    Also, if we are now able to do such things, why hasn't the modern chimp evolved and addapted the same way? Surely seeing us doing what we do would spark something in another species to cause them to addapt and copy what we do.

    This is why I belive that somewhere along the line, we gained some kind of insparation (such as the monolith from Space Oddessy) from some unknown force somewhere out in space or we were tampered with by something, or some other species to think "outside the box" as it were.

    What are your thoughts?


     

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  3. #2  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    argument from incredulity - just because you can't imagine how something could have happened doesn't mean it didn't

    + look at everyday life - it's full of coincidences


    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

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    The modern chimp hasn't evolved in the same way because the modern chimp isn't the same as the prehistoric chimp. At one time prehistoric man and prehistoric apes were on the same path. Lifestyles changed in one area of the world which meant that the apes within that area, over time, went through some sort of evolutionary change that apes in another area didn't. Perhaps it was the extensive use of tools, the building of 'dens' and devegatation so they couldn't spend as much time in the trees? Anyways we both went; our own path and we both evolved into what we are today.
     

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    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
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    I think Marnix has a point, coincidences just happen. Think about the chance of your birth, how many factors had to come together to make it possible that you'd be born? If just one of your forefathers had met someone else you wouldn't have existed and someone else would've lived in your place. Or if one of your many ancestors had died young the track leading to you would also have ended prematurely. A couple centuries ago the chance that you'd be born was probably way below 1%, and yet here you are. I don't think god put you on earth, just luck :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    Perhaps it was the extensive use of tools, the building of 'dens' and devegatation so they couldn't spend as much time in the trees? Anyways we both went; our own path and we both evolved into what we are today.
    Habitat change seems to have played a role. I remember reading that Africa underwent drying and warming at the time human and chimp evolution started to diverge, so big forests become more scarce in Africa. Apes either had to become very adapt at treetop-living to defend a scarce niche in the shrinking forests (chimps) or become fast and able to defend themselves in the open field (humans). Humans took the harder route, but once we could live in open fields we could adapt to almost any place on earth.
     

  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by BumFluff
    The modern chimp hasn't evolved in the same way because the modern chimp isn't the same as the prehistoric chimp. At one time prehistoric man and prehistoric apes were on the same path. Lifestyles changed in one area of the world which meant that the apes within that area, over time, went through some sort of evolutionary change that apes in another area didn't. Perhaps it was the extensive use of tools, the building of 'dens' and devegatation so they couldn't spend as much time in the trees? Anyways we both went; our own path and we both evolved into what we are today.
    I would suggest that part of the reason is because the transition to intelligence was a "winner takes all" type of transition. For the chimps to evolve in a direction that brought them into competition with the Sapiens would have been a way to ensure their death, not their survival.

    You wonder why the Erectus and Neanderthals aren't around today? It's kind of cynical, but I would suggest that we Sapiens wanted their land. I highly doubt it was Mother Nature herself that finished them off.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax

    I would suggest that part of the reason is because the transition to intelligence was a "winner takes all" type of transition. For the chimps to evolve in a direction that brought them into competition with the Sapiens would have been a way to ensure their death, not their survival.

    You wonder why the Erectus and Neanderthals aren't around today? It's kind of cynical, but I would suggest that we Sapiens wanted their land. I highly doubt it was Mother Nature herself that finished them off.
    I wouldn't underestimate mother nature in being able to completely destroy certain types of life forms. Take for example the possibility that Oxygen in the atmosphere became scarce world wide due to some sort of massive geological upheaval. All those with the inability to adapt to the new oxygen levels would die off.

    I was actually just watching a show the other day about theories on how the biology of dinosaurs played out. Evidentally they have found that they had absolutely HUGE lung capacity which came about as a result of increased oxygen in the atmosphere which contributed to their enormous size. I would suggest that something catastrphic happened geologically which took quite a bit of the oxygen out of the atmosphere and those animals large enough, such as dinosaurs, as well as certain plant types died off because they couldn't adapt.
     

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    Well, I certainly wouldn't rule out a natural cause for their extinction entirely, but look at the history of modern man. How long of a run did the American Indians have after a more advanced society decided it wanted to own the continent?

    You don't think the same principle would apply to sapiens who found themselves sharing a border with a tribe of erectus or neanderthals? Why would they choose to share the land with an inferior species?
     

  9. #8 Re: The evolution of man... 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elando
    There must of been something along the way that triggered something inside a normal chimp (or group of chimps) that caused them to walk upright and use tools. Things like this dont just happen on there own without insparation or intervention by another species.
    So, do you think there was something inside a normal fish (or group of fishes) that caused them to crawl out onto the land and develop lungs? Would you argue that things like this don't happen on their own without inspiration or intervention by another species?
    Or, do you think there was something inside a mid-Cambrian trilobite (or group of trilobites) that caused it to change its gonatoparian suture to a proparian suture. I mean, things like this don't happen on their own without inspiration or intervention by another species. Do they?
     

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    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    god is a species ?
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

  11. #10  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marnixR
    god is a species ?
    A species of supreme being? (My supreme being can beat your supreme being any day of the week, with one hand tied behind her back.)
     

  12. #11  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    God is unisexually gendered.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
     

  13. #12  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    not asexual then ?
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
     

  14. #13  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    I don't think so.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
     

  15. #14 Re: The evolution of man... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    So, do you think there was something inside a normal fish (or group of fishes) that caused them to crawl out onto the land and develop lungs? Would you argue that things like this don't happen on their own without inspiration or intervention by another species?
    Or, do you think there was something inside a mid-Cambrian trilobite (or group of trilobites) that caused it to change its gonatoparian suture to a proparian suture. I mean, things like this don't happen on their own without inspiration or intervention by another species. Do they?
    They were probably searching for other sources of food. As the majority of people believe plants adapted to land long before any of these types of aniumals which we are discussing did. The different forms of animals most likely just followed the plants because their food sources may have been drying up in certain parts of the world.
     

  16. #15  
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    It's another "winner takes all" kind of situation. If the only existing creatures in the world were fish, then every inch you get closer to the land is an inch of terrain your species gets all to itself. No predators, abundant food, nobody you have to share it with.

    It's kind of like how patents work.

    Basically, each time a creature evolved that could get into a shallower pool than the others, it was granted a patent. No competition, just gravy.
     

  17. #16  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Guys, the questions were rhetorical. I was hoping to demonstrate to Elando how ill founded his initial points were.
    (I notice no one was willing to take a stab at the more interesting matter of trilobite sutures. 8) )
     

  18. #17  
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    Well, they gave us something to refer to. I had to look up those words in a trilobite glossary online, and I still don't really know their significance.

    I think you pointed out Elando's mistake pretty well, though. You could look at the roulette wheel outcomes in 3 months of tapes from a Casino camera, and argue that exactly that specific pattern of outcomes would be nearly impossible to replicate without divine intervention.

    ... and you'd be right.

    But does that mean that it required a God for you to get those outcomes the first time?


    An important question when looking at coincidences that lead to the development of intelligent life is whether the outcome had to happen exactly one way. Is it deciding "if" or "not" there will be intelligent life, or just deciding what form the intelligent life will take?
     

  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    I had to look up those words in a trilobite glossary online, and I still don't really know their significance.
    I threw that one in as a sort of generic, general purpose example. I haven't studied trilobites for almost four decades. I just recall that of the three suture types there was an ancestral one. The sutures are where the exoskeleton broke away when the creature was ready to shed its old one as part of its growth process. I imagine by now someone has come up with some ideas on the relative survival benefits of the different suture types, but I have no idea what these would be.
     

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    U mean some aliens taught us! foolishhh... there are no aliens in present known universe(may be after some centuries we may see them may be) i agree with bumfluff pre historic chimps are not same as chimps today and it is labour(hardwork)which evaluted man through spending blood and sweat(FOR FOOD AND SAFTEY HE (HUMAN) STRUGGLED WITH LIFE AND NATURE AND ADAPTING TO CHANGES and beeing a SOCIAL ANIMAL and some LUCK(FIRE) helped him TO BECOME FITTEST TO SURVIVE EVEN THE ICE AGES AND CONDITIONS WHICH MADE DINOSUARS DISAPPEAR.ITS LABOUR ,UNITY,EXPERIENCE,and finally some LUCK ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HUMAN EVOLUTION EXTERNALLY(MEANS SOCIALLY) NATURAL FACTORS LIKE FOOD CHANGES MADE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM EVOLUTE ETC.
    Last edited by charvaka; March 10th, 2013 at 02:29 PM.
     

  21. #20  
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    Moderator Comment:
    Charvaka, you are most welcome on the forum, but I have two suggestions that may make your participation here more valuable to all.

    1. Generally it is a bad idea to resurrect old threads. This one saw its last post almost five years ago. If you wish to discuss the ideas in the thread it might be better to begin a new one.
    2. Capital letters are generally considered to be the equivalent of shouting and are frowned upon. Delicate use of formatting to emphasise things is fine. Just don't overdo it.
     

  22. #21  
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    I am sorry I just used capitals to make important things to look special not to shout if it is abusive ia really sorry
     

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    agreed i wont answer old threads i will start new ones
     

  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by charvaka View Post
    I am sorry I just used capitals to make important things to look special not to shout if it is abusive ia really sorry
    No problem. If you are new to forums you would be unaware of this. Don't let it worry you.

    I'll lock this thread now, so that no one else opens it in three years.
     

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