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Thread: Remember Pearl Harbor!

  1. #1 Remember Pearl Harbor! 
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    Dec 7 (a date which will live in infamy) seems to have been forgotten. I haven't seen any notices as yet today.


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    There aren't many left who actually remember it now


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cssjim View Post
    There aren't many left who actually remember it now
    I would hope that it is taught in history and not ignored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    I would hope that it is taught in history and not ignored.

    It seems likely to be one of the central stories of the history of warfare for a very long time to come. It was, after all, the biggest blunder ever made by an aggressor so blinded by ambition that they failed to understand the consequences of their actions.

    To attack America with their very limited capacity was profoundly idiotic, and should send a warning to all overly ambitious aggressors that repercussions should be considered before taking such drastic actions.

    Japan is always reminded of this blunder every year, on December 7th.

    And again on two days in early August.

    They will never forget it since it cost them so many lives and fortunes, and the visitation of a "new and most cruel bomb".

    With regard to waging war, Pearl Harbor for the Japanese represents the ultimate example for "The Rule of Unintended Consequences".

    It is highly unlikely to be forgotten.
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    I think statistically the US loses were not that great, (in the context of WWII as a whole), symbolicaly it was huge. I agree that it will linger long (quite rightly) in the teaching of history but with all dates of this nature those who actually remember it are no more and it is one for the history books
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    Quote Originally Posted by crghsam View Post
    I think statistically the US loses were not that great, (in the context of WWII as a whole), symbolicaly it was huge. I agree that it will linger long (quite rightly) in the teaching of history but with all dates of this nature those who actually remember it are no more and it is one for the history books
    I'm still here. I was a child (12) then, but I certainly remember.
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  8. #7  
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    To continue from last year, today is the 80th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

    One can only wonder how history would have turned out if they had not attacked, and the U.S. had delayed entry into the war.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    To continue from last year, today is the 80th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

    One can only wonder how history would have turned out if they had not attacked, and the U.S. had delayed entry into the war.
    An additional complication. U.S. was at war with Japan as a result of the attack. Germany declared war on U.S. on Dec. 11. If Germany hadn't done that, would U.S. have gotten into European war and when?
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Germany declared war on U.S. on Dec. 11. If Germany hadn't done that, would U.S. have gotten into European war and when?

    That is a good question. Hitler did not want the Japanese to attack the U.S. since he did not want to bring it into the war. He was well aware of their ability to assemble a massive military response to the global conflict.

    On December 5, 1941, two days before the Japanese attack, the Red Army began their counteroffensive against the Wehrmacht, who were just outside the gates of Moscow.*

    Stalin and Zhukov had called up Siberian reserves, and the Nazis were on the defensive very quickly. The Red Army ended up destroying the German offensive on Moscow and pushed them back.

    Had the Japanese not attacked at Pearl Harbor, Washington may have viewed the Red Army's successful counteroffensive as evidence that the Nazis were in trouble and not such a big concern for America. We will never know, but the attack on Pearl Harbor certainly changed the nature of the war in a very dramatic fashion. Hitler's declaration of war on America left no doubt about where things would go.

    It is instructive to appreciate that America had the Japanese in bad shape only six months after Pearl Harbor with a decisive naval engagement at Midway, destroying four fleet carriers and hundreds of planes with their best pilots. At that point, the writing was on the wall for the Axis powers.


    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow
    Last edited by Double Helix; December 7th, 2021 at 07:40 PM.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Japan is always reminded of this blunder every year, on December 7th.
    A mysterious and still unanswered question: why Japan decided to attack USA instead of USSR? The later was much more vulnerable and realistic target. On December 7-th German troops stood near Moscow. This blunder of Japan became crucial for the Allies victory.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Japan is always reminded of this blunder every year, on December 7th.
    A mysterious and still unanswered question: why Japan decided to attack USA instead of USSR? The later was much more vulnerable and realistic target. On December 7-th German troops stood near Moscow. This blunder of Japan became crucial for the Allies victory.
    The Japanese already had enough of the Russians.

    The Red Army had beaten them back in 1939.*


    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...rder_conflicts
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Japan is always reminded of this blunder every year, on December 7th.
    A mysterious and still unanswered question: why Japan decided to attack USA instead of USSR? The later was much more vulnerable and realistic target. On December 7-th German troops stood near Moscow. This blunder of Japan became crucial for the Allies victory.
    Japan's problem at the time was embargo leading to a problem with oil supply among other things. Attacking U.S. and taking over Dutch East Indies would (they hoped) solve these problems. Attacking USSR wouldn't help.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Attacking USSR wouldn't help.
    If USSR would fall relatively quickly, Japs would find a plenty of oil there. Sakhalin fields are more than enough. In any case attack on US looks suicidal.
    Last edited by Stanley514; January 18th, 2022 at 07:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    The Japanese already had enough of the Russians.

    The Red Army had beaten them back in 1939.*


    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...rder_conflicts
    In the same time Japs successfully fought back Russians in 1905 and 1918 (intervention).
    Russo-Japanese War - Wikipedia
    Japanese intervention in Siberia - Wikipedia
    In Dec. of 1941 USSR was bleeding. It wouldn't be able to fight back Japan.
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  16. #15  
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    Speaking of Pearl Harbour, do you think Ukraine has the capability of launching an air bombing or missile attack on Moscow, like the USA did with the Doolittle raid on Tokyo?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Speaking of Pearl Harbour, do you think Ukraine has the capability of launching an air bombing or missile attack on Moscow, like the USA did with the Doolittle raid on Tokyo?
    It seems unlikely. The Ukraine's military largely relies on old Soviet weapons*. So modern Russian air defenses would easily shoot down anything sent from Ukraine long before it reached Moscow.

    Their best bet would be insurgents with auto or truck bombs, driving them into Moscow. Since Putin has declared Ukraine part of Russia, this would then simply be a domestic attack during a civil war. This might be possible if the Ukrainians have already set up groups in Moscow quite some time ago, who are now planning on launching attacks. We can only hope......

    But keep thinking good thoughts there, z. Many of us appreciate such ideas!


    * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Air_Force
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Helix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Speaking of Pearl Harbour, do you think Ukraine has the capability of launching an air bombing or missile attack on Moscow, like the USA did with the Doolittle raid on Tokyo?
    It seems unlikely. The Ukraine's military largely relies on old Soviet weapons*. So modern Russian air defenses would easily shoot down anything sent from Ukraine long before it reached Moscow.

    Their best bet would be insurgents with auto or truck bombs, driving them into Moscow. Since Putin has declared Ukraine part of Russia, this would then simply be a domestic attack during a civil war. This might be possible if the Ukrainians have already set up groups in Moscow quite some time ago, who are now planning on launching attacks. We can only hope......
    Nothing like taking the war home to Vlad. Protesting Muscovites might turn out in huge numbers. The prospect of a Tiananmen Square type tank incident in Red Square with Russian citizens might make things very interesting.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    The prospect of a Tiananmen Square type tank incident in Red Square with Russian citizens might make things very interesting.
    There has already been a Tiananmen Square "moment" with a Ukrainian "Tank Man", trying to hold off a column of what appear to be APCs. Check out the story on the link below:



    "Video of Ukrainian ‘tank man’ trying to block Russian military convoy goes viral"

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/ukraine-tank-man-video-clip



    Of course we should remember the original "Tank Man" in Tiananmen Square who should be honored for his bravery as well. This gentleman held up a line of over 14 main battle tanks with only his shopping bags, outrage and irritation of the situation to sustain him! You can only push some people so far. One can only wonder what happened to him.............

    "Man vs. Chinese tank Tiananmen square - June 5, 1989"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU
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  20. #19  
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    In keeping with tradition, today is the 81st anniversary of the infamous attack by the Japanese on the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor, on 7 December, 1941. This attack effectively ended any chance the Japanese might have had in conquering east Asia and beyond by provoking the world's largest manufacturer of weapons of war, with all its resources and technology. And it encouraged millions of fighting men to avenge the attack. It also threw a large wrench into the German plans for global domination. In the end, it brought a whole new form of warfare to the world with the development of nuclear weapons. This attack was a momentous event in world history, to say the least.

    Complimenting this year's recognition of the attack, AP News has provided a unique story from Lou Conter, a 101-year-old survivor of the battleship U.S.S. Arizona. He not only survived the most horrific bombing of the attack,. but also spent considerable effort rescuing others from the devastated vessel where 1,177 men were lost, almost half of all those killed on that dreadful day*.

    It is certainly a date which should never be forgotten.


    "USS Arizona survivor: Honor those killed at Pearl Harbor"

    * https://apnews.com/article/travel-ca...a17c8882b76a14
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  21. #20  
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    Historical what if? U.S. got into war with Germany because Germany declared war immediately after. How would the war evolve if they hadn't?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Historical what if? U.S. got into war with Germany because Germany declared war immediately after. How would the war evolve if they hadn't?
    A very difficult question. As you probably know, there was considerable support for Germany from a number of influential people. Charles Lindbergh was pro-Nazi before the war and a rabid anti-Semite (1). Henry Ford was also, and even received a medal from the Nazis - "Grand Cross of the German Eagle" for his activities in this regard (2). And there many others who supported the Germans. On top of that, there were strong isolationist tendencies in the U.S. The Japanese attack changed all that.

    What might have happened if the U.S. had not entered the war is the subject of great debate. Of course it will never be known, but many have speculated on it (3), and this is only one of many references.


    "More Americans Supported Hitler Than You May Think. Here's Why One Expert Thinks That History Isn't Better Known"

    1. https://time.com/5414055/american-nazi-sympathy-book/


    "Ford's Anti-Semitism"

    2. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexp...-antisemitism/


    "The Great Debate"

    3. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/wa...s/great-debate
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