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Thread: is all history verifiable?????

  1. #1 is all history verifiable????? 
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    I have been hounded by some posters to provide proof of my claims about some historically elusive facts. It is nearly impossible to provide proof of historical facts in India. There are many socially conflicting interests at play here. It is next to impossible to prove facts based on documentary evidence as it was thought insulting to record some facts. There is much which is buried underground. We have to believe in grapevine which is confirmed by social forces as facts(historical facts).
    Unless we include grapevine and continue believing in concocted documents we will not get a satisfactory explanation of events.

    Ex : Shivaji was son of a Muslim

    Prophet Mohammed was black.

    These are some facts that do explain some events in history of both these stalwarts.


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    If you can't verify it, it's not history but "mythology"...


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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    It is nearly impossible to provide proof of historical facts in India.
    Not only in India is it nearly impossible, unless there is reliable evidence. This may only be in the form of DNA and archaeology.
    Much of the past is based on myth and legend. History gets altered to suit the winners and losers. Truth gets lost in translation. Scribes make copying errors.
    As for Shivaji, I understand he was a low caste warrior who legend has it fell foul of the Brahmins.
    As for Mohammed, did he exist at all? There could have been two people who were Mohammed. One might have been black.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    It is nearly impossible to provide proof of historical facts in India.
    Not only in India is it nearly impossible, unless there is reliable evidence. This may only be in the form of DNA and archaeology.
    Much of the past is based on myth and legend. History gets altered to suit the winners and losers. Truth gets lost in translation. Scribes make copying errors.
    As for Shivaji, I understand he was a low caste warrior who legend has it fell foul of the Brahmins.
    As for Mohammed, did he exist at all? There could have been two people who were Mohammed. One might have been black.
    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    He was in fact born of an illicit relationship
    Wait!
    DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    So it's a fact that he was "born of an illicit relationship" but it's only a hypothesis that he wasn't the son of his nominal father?
    How does that work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    It is nearly impossible to provide proof of historical facts in India.
    Not only in India is it nearly impossible, unless there is reliable evidence. This may only be in the form of DNA and archaeology.
    Much of the past is based on myth and legend. History gets altered to suit the winners and losers. Truth gets lost in translation. Scribes make copying errors.
    As for Shivaji, I understand he was a low caste warrior who legend has it fell foul of the Brahmins.
    As for Mohammed, did he exist at all? There could have been two people who were Mohammed. One might have been black.
    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
    Arabs are Semites (Arabic and Hebrew are fairly similar languages). Although Arabs may be dark skinned, they are not Africans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post

    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
    And when EXACTLY did DNA start encoding the "Religion" (personal myth system) of a person????

    (Hint, it doesnt, and so your assertion is bollocks)
    Last edited by Paleoichneum; November 30th, 2017 at 01:41 PM. Reason: hmm
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    It is nearly impossible to provide proof of historical facts in India.
    Not only in India is it nearly impossible, unless there is reliable evidence. This may only be in the form of DNA and archaeology.
    Much of the past is based on myth and legend. History gets altered to suit the winners and losers. Truth gets lost in translation. Scribes make copying errors.
    As for Shivaji, I understand he was a low caste warrior who legend has it fell foul of the Brahmins.
    As for Mohammed, did he exist at all? There could have been two people who were Mohammed. One might have been black.
    Have you se

    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
    Arabs are Semites (Arabic and Hebrew are fairly similar languages). Although Arabs may be dark skinned, they are not Africans.
    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Arab

    There are also Arabs of African origin as mentioned in link above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Arab
    There are also Arabs of African origin as mentioned in link above.
    Please quote the part that states that.
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    ummm, NO.

    Possible genetic flow between early Homonid species populations, as suggested by a single research group, with no review of the work yet.

    (ps dont bring religion into sections of evolution where it has no place)
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    One thing I'm always aware of is that the truth is seldom absolute. So if the evolutionary biologist states the we (Homo sapiens) are all Africans, then he or she is basing that on fragmentary evidence.

    Dali Chinese archaic Homo sapiens cranium
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    One thing I'm always aware of is that the truth is seldom absolute. So if the evolutionary biologist states the we (Homo sapiens) are all Africans, then he or she is basing that on fragmentary evidence.

    Dali Chinese archaic Homo sapiens cranium
    Humans are STILL of African origins, that is only showing that some groups migrated a little earlier then thought.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Humans are STILL of African origins...
    Then describe the common ancestor of humans and other apes found in Africa.
    The Out of Africa theory is current thinking but it only takes a significant discovery elsewhere to question it.
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    Oreopithecis. Ardopithecus, australopithecus etc.

    The Chinese skull is STILL in the genus Homo, it does NOTHING to question the african origins of hominids and humans.
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    STILL younger then Australopithecus etc. You dont actually understand the complex situation of the human evolution and the fact that all the links youre providing are to species flow after homonid evolution in Africa.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    Arab - New World Encyclopedia
    There are also Arabs of African origin as mentioned in link above.
    Please quote the part that states that.
    These are the varied definitions commonly accepted in determining "Arab" status:

    1. Islamic tradition: The Qur'an does not define who is an Arab, but there is a verse in the Qur'an stating "there is no difference between an Arab or Ajam (meaning a non-Arab speaker), only by their god-fearingness." The prophet Muhammad also noted that an Arab is anyone who speaks Arabic.
    2. Ethnic identity: someone who considers him or herself to be an Arab (regardless of racial or ethnic origin) and is recognized as such by others.
    3. Race: The term "Arab" does not refer to a particular race. Arabs include Caucasians and Africans with ancestral origins in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. The intermarriage of Arab seamen and their agents as far back as the first century [13] has left few 'pure' Arabs, racially. "Dark skinned" Arabs are Sudanese, Ethiopian and Somalian Arabs, and Arabs from Southern Egyptwho are considered Africans. "Caucasian" Arabs are Arabs native to Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Tunisia, Algeria, and Libyaamong others.
    4. Linguistic: someone whose first language is Arabic (including any of its varieties); this definition covers more than 250 million people. Arabic belongs to the Semitic family of languages.
    5. Genealogical: someone who can trace his or her ancestry back to the original inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula or the Syrian Desert.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    STILL younger then Australopithecus etc. You dont actually understand the complex situation of the human evolution and the fact that all the links youre providing are to species flow after homonid evolution in Africa.
    I'm beginning to think we'll never know the answer and that species don't exist, only transitory forms. The timeline of Ardipithecus seems older than Australopithecus.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardipithecus
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    These are the varied definitions commonly accepted in determining "Arab" status:

    "Arab status" != Arab.
    According to one of those criteria I almost qualify as Arab, despite the fact one of my ancestors (great or great-great grandmother) was Swedish and none of them (to my knowledge) was born any further South than the South coast of England.
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    Ardipithecus is ETHIOPIAN, and thus still African. We KNOW THE ANSWER already, Ox.....

    And DUH, thats what all species are, a grade from an older species to a newer species, until extinction take out the whole linage somehow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post

    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
    And when EXACTLY did DNA start encoding the "Religion" (personal myth system) of a person????

    (Hint, it doesnt, and so your assertion is bollocks)
    Im STILL waiting for you to address this....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Ardipithecus is ETHIOPIAN, and thus still African. We KNOW THE ANSWER already, Ox.....

    And DUH, thats what all species are, a grade from an older species to a newer species, until extinction take out the whole linage somehow.
    But I thought you were making the case for Australopithecus.
    The fact remains we do not have enough bones to say for sure where Sapiens first came from for certain.
    There will no doubt come a time when some Sapiens cannot mate with other humans, and that time may not be so far off.
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    What exactly do you mean "we dont have enough bones yet"? There have been litterally hundreds of partial to nearly complete fossils found in the homonid linage now.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    For some human species we have few bones.
    Human Fossils | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
    Europe was once home to apes, hippos, elephants. The climate cooled and early humans could have moved into Africa, before moving north again.
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    They didn't, All hominid fossils from early Homo species and back are very clearly from Africa, please stop what-ifing based on a gaps fallacy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    They didn't, All hominid fossils from early Homo species and back are very clearly from Africa, please stop what-ifing based on a gaps fallacy
    Really. How do you know that for absolute certain? We need to do a lot more digging.
    Europeans are different. They evolved eye and hair colours not found elsewhere. My eyes are blue-grey, my hair brown. Any other Sapiens more or less have black hair and brown eyes.
    The gaps fallacy is pretty wide. Missing links, common ancestors. We need to know more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Europeans are different. They evolved eye and hair colours not found elsewhere.
    Considerably after humans qua humans evolved (I can't be arsed to look up hair colours).

    The gaps fallacy is pretty wide.
    Crap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    They didn't, All hominid fossils from early Homo species and back are very clearly from Africa, please stop what-ifing based on a gaps fallacy
    Really. How do you know that for absolute certain? We need to do a lot more digging.
    Europeans are different. They evolved eye and hair colours not found elsewhere. My eyes are blue-grey, my hair brown. Any other Sapiens more or less have black hair and brown eyes.
    The gaps fallacy is pretty wide. Missing links, common ancestors. We need to know more.
    We DO know "more", except that you havent given any effort to actually research what out of africa mwans in evolutionary biology, and your using that baltant ignorace to insist that there is much more ambiguity on hominid evolution than actually exists.

    You are arguing from ignorance and its blatantly clear you are. (As is typical for you)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Europeans are different. They evolved eye and hair colours not found elsewhere.
    Considerably after humans qua humans evolved (I can't be arsed to look up hair colours).
    A quote there from the Daily Hate.
    A better one Frost: Why Do Europeans Have So Many Hair and Eye Colors?
    Like it says, more proof is needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You are arguing from ignorance and its blatantly clear you are. (As is typical for you)
    I'm still waiting for you to identify the common ancestor of humans and other apes.

    Of course there never was a first Human. No Adam and no Eve. If you argue they are a species which evolved first in the African Rift then you could be sort of right but you may also be wrong. Bones might have been found there but no species ever exist. Sapiens just like all the rest are on one evolutionary pathway which leads to extinction. Before they wreck the planet they might branch into something less destructive. You need to think in terms of gene mutations and not species.
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    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    A quote there from the Daily Hate.
    So, near (attempted?) ad hom aside, which part do you dispute?

    A better one Frost: Why Do Europeans Have So Many Hair and Eye Colors?
    Like it says, more proof is needed.
    Except that that "need for more proof" still doesn't question the out of Africa basis (which was your contention with regard to eye/ hair colour).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Europeans are different. They evolved eye and hair colours not found elsewhere.
    Considerably after humans qua humans evolved (I can't be arsed to look up hair colours).
    A quote there from the Daily Hate.
    A better one Frost: Why Do Europeans Have So Many Hair and Eye Colors?
    Like it says, more proof is needed.
    Blue eyes only evolved in the last 10,000 years, so I'm not sure why other eye colors couldn't be as recent. https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0130170343.htm
    From the article:
    New research shows that people with blue eyes have a single, common ancestor. Scientists have tracked down a genetic mutation which took place 6,000-10,000 years ago and is the cause of the eye color of all blue-eyed humans alive on the planet today.
    All in all, eye color change is much more recent than the whole African hominids and migration out of Africa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Burbling like...?
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...chimp-cousins/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    A quote there from the Daily Hate.
    So, near (attempted?) ad hom aside, which part do you dispute?
    This what the Daily Hate (forgive me, Daily Mail) is like.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk

    So why did eye and hair gene mutation only occur in Europe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    This what the Daily Hate (forgive me, Daily Mail) is like.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4zYlOU7Fpk
    Beside the point.
    What - exactly - do you dispute about the article itself?

    So why did eye and hair gene mutation only occur in Europe?
    Side track again, this is not related to your original claim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post

    Yes, Shivaji was a low caste warrior according to folk tales. He was in fact born of an illicit relationship with a Muslim. DNA can be made available with the consent of the subject. DNA may prove the hypothesis that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji Bhosale.
    Regarding Prophet Mohammed I am sure he was black(African) as most of the Arabs around Mecca were at that time. Prophet Mohammed is portrayed as white to convert Europeans.
    And when EXACTLY did DNA start encoding the "Religion" (personal myth system) of a person????

    (Hint, it doesnt, and so your assertion is bollocks)
    Im STILL waiting for you to address this....
    I think you have got me wrong. I have only stated that Shivaji was not son of Shahaji as is believed. If you research this topic on the net you will get the usual replies.
    You have to type " Shivaji father was a Muslim" in order to know the truth. As was the custom in those days many Hindus produced illicit children from Muslims. We cannot rule out this possibility. "Musla Khan Bhai" may have been the name of Shivaji's father. This part of History is excluded and it remains only as a folklore.
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    No, I am not researching this for you, YOU need to provide the evidence here if you want it discussed. And you are the one that made that assertion re: DNA confirming religion of a person
    Last edited by Paleoichneum; December 3rd, 2017 at 02:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Burbling like...?
    https://www.newscientist.com/article...chimp-cousins/
    Yes, burbling.

    That article start off with the fallacy of THE Original missing link. There is no such thing in paleontology, there is always a grade of species, and its utterly irrelevant to the FACT that all ancestral taxa to humans are from Africa. YOU keep ignoring that fact entirely
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    You are arguing from ignorance and its blatantly clear you are. (As is typical for you)
    I'm still waiting for you to identify the common ancestor of humans and other apes.
    The term for that last-common-ancestor is CHLCA; it's the term used by scientists studying the evolution of humanity, and represents the last common ancestor between chimpanzees (later bonobos) and humans.

    There was a 13 million year old fossil found in Kenya a while back that they nicknamed Alesi that's probably from a time before those species diverged. So meet Alesi, an ancestor you share with chimpanzees.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-looked-liked/
    Of course there never was a first Human. No Adam and no Eve.
    If by that you mean it was a gradual change, definitely true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    No, I am not researching this for you, YOU need to provide the evidence here if you want it discussed. And you are the one that made that assertion re: DNA confirming religion of a person
    I think I should have raised the DNA issue in the next paragraph. My mistake. Sorry.
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    There could have been a mitochondrial 'Eve'.
    The Mitochondrial Eve: Have Scientists Found the Mother of Us All? MHRC

    Note that she probably was around 200,000 years ago in Africa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    There could have been a mitochondrial 'Eve'.
    The Mitochondrial Eve: Have Scientists Found the Mother of Us All? MHRC

    Note that she probably was around 200,000 years ago in Africa.
    Yay for utterly irrelevant. I take it you still done't actually understand the concept of "Out of Africa" at all, and now your just posting links in a slow Gish gallop to hide that fact.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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