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Thread: Hitler and the Third Reich

  1. #1 Hitler and the Third Reich 
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    I am not a fan of Hitler and the Third Reich but I would like to learn more about it, and German history in general. An good books out there? I have some questions to start off. What ideas did they believe in and practice, and where did they get these ideas? What military achievements in technology did they achieve/lead in? Could they have won the war if they planned differently? Would World War 2 have began without Hitler? Thanks guys!


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    We do not have to talk about the Holocaust, we all know about that and probably do not want to discuss it. That is the key reason, knowing what I already know, why I do not like Hitler or the Third Reich.


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    I can give you a general elucidation of Nazi ideology. It was inspired by the Counter Enlightenment which rejected the view that humans were ordered and rational, they instead believed that humans were emotional and chaotic (interestingly we can see this manifested even in Hitler's speeches), many believed in the organic solidarity of a nation based on an exaggerated mythology and nostalgica, right wing movements after the war were particularly nostalgicaic for the medieval period of (German) Arian Christianity free from the horrors they associated with modernism. Particular examples to support this can be found in the depictions of right wing political parties after the war, the most common being the image of a knight on a horseback; all of these ideals were common to the Romanticist movement (interestingly a key figure Rousseau has been criticised as being a precursor for totalitarian ideals in his Social Contract) It is also known that Hitler admired many Romantics such as Richard Wagner (who was also German, we know because of his relation to the Wagner family and his support for his music during the reich as well as his early biography which describes him attending the opera). They were also inherently anti-Semitic and associated Judaism with the Weimar Republic (which they blamed for supposingly stabbing Germany in the back) and believed that Judaism was the spirit of capitalism (this was fueld by anti-Semites like Henry Ford) since Jews were often expelled for practices of usury in many nations (particularly again medieval). Anti-semitism also partly spans from the agrarian background which many Nazi officials came from (such as Himmler) they came to resent landowners particularly during times of desperation (because many landowners exploited the workers by hoarding material), and these landowners were often stereotyped as parasitic and greedy Jews. Racicalism was also the result of a distorted version of the theory of evolution as applied to society, the ideas of Herbert Spencer who described the condition of the world as 'survival of the fittest', through his readings of ideologues such as Alfred Rosenberg, Hitler came to view each nation as having a spirit rooted in racial ideals, he thought in the grand scheme of things only power mattered (a very distorted Nietzschean idea, we know he read Nietzsche because he had supported Nietzsche's sisters distorted publication of his works) and that the German nation would die as a result of Jewish pacifism and that the only way to resist it was to make Germany strong again and alienate Jewish influence.

    He had many other influences, i'll be happy to elaborate on each one if you are interested.

    In terms of (good, because everyone knows their disgusting legacy) influence iirc Nazi Germany was the first to ban vivisection,
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    I'm on my lunch break, so I'm tight on time. One tidbit for you is that most everything we know about hypothermia came from research that was conducted by the Nazis. Also modern rocketry owes a lot to the Nazis (if I recall correctly).
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

    "It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down"
    - Yagyu Munenori

    "Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
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    Well I would suggest you couldn't go to far wrong than actually read what the Nazi's themselves really had to say if you want to begin to understand some of the real motivation behind their particular brand of madness and evil.

    Hitler's book Mein Kampf was considered mandatory reading during the Nazi era and does give some insight into the Nazi view of the world obviously strongly influenced by Hitler's own view's upon Nazi Germany's roll and place in the world. This being said if you want some better perspective on what was actually occurring during the Nazi regime's reign then may I suggest Albert Speer's book Inside the Third Reich.

    Inside the Third Reich was written by the only Nazi, high ranking at least, to be known to have said sorry and shown some actual remorse for the appalling crimes they committed. He is also known as Hitler's architect and thus his account of events is slightly less focussed solely on the military aspects of the Nazi era.

    Beyond this there are so so many good books written about the Nazi's, the holocaust and the Second world war from an allied perspective.

    The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany
    William L Shirer

    Personally I like Churchill's books, but I'm English so probably a little biased.

    The Gathering Storm
    Their Finest Hour
    The Grand Alliance
    The Hinge of Fate
    Closing the Ring
    Triumph and Tragedy

    If perhaps you want to read up on Nazi military innervations the perhaps:

    The Birth of the Missile: The Secrets of Peenemunde, Ernst Klee & Otto Merk

    Hitler's Luftwaffe, Bill Gunston & Tony Wood

    If you wish to learn more about the holocaust then perhaps:

    A History of the Holocaust, Yehuda Bauer




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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    I am not a fan of Hitler
    I would go as far as to say he was a cad and a bounder! (Please excuse my language.)
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    Hitler, the Third Reich and Germany is a very broad topic, at least for me. There are so many books. There are thousands of books on Hitler alone.

    List of books by or about Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As a start, I would recommend Wikipedia's Nazi Germany

    Nazi Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Shirer's Rise and Fall is comprehensive and very long. Shirer did an incredible amount of research but it is important to know he was a American journalist and not an objective historian.

    Also, there are some very good documentaries on YouTube.
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    I have seen many great documentaries on the tele, Apocalypse World War II is very informative, it covers a lot of how WWI influenced WWII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post

    Could they have won the war if they planned differently?
    It depends on how you define "win the war." Hitler would have won the war if England would have negotiated peace terms or an armistice with Hitler.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Would World War 2 have began without Hitler?
    I don't think so. The cause of WWII was Hitler's invasion of Poland. If Hitler was not in power, I don't believe the German govt and military would have invaded Poland.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    I can give you a general elucidation of Nazi ideology. It was inspired by the Counter Enlightenment which rejected the view that humans were ordered and rational, they instead believed that humans were emotional and chaotic (interestingly we can see this manifested even in Hitler's speeches), many believed in the organic solidarity of a nation based on an exaggerated mythology and nostalgica, right wing movements after the war were particularly nostalgicaic for the medieval period of (German) Arian Christianity free from the horrors they associated with modernism. Particular examples to support this can be found in the depictions of right wing political parties after the war, the most common being the image of a knight on a horseback; all of these ideals were common to the Romanticist movement (interestingly a key figure Rousseau has been criticised as being a precursor for totalitarian ideals in his Social Contract) It is also known that Hitler admired many Romantics such as Richard Wagner (who was also German, we know because of his relation to the Wagner family and his support for his music during the reich as well as his early biography which describes him attending the opera). They were also inherently anti-Semitic and associated Judaism with the Weimar Republic (which they blamed for supposingly stabbing Germany in the back) and believed that Judaism was the spirit of capitalism (this was fueld by anti-Semites like Henry Ford) since Jews were often expelled for practices of usury in many nations (particularly again medieval). Anti-semitism also partly spans from the agrarian background which many Nazi officials came from (such as Himmler) they came to resent landowners particularly during times of desperation (because many landowners exploited the workers by hoarding material), and these landowners were often stereotyped as parasitic and greedy Jews. Racicalism was also the result of a distorted version of the theory of evolution as applied to society, the ideas of Herbert Spencer who described the condition of the world as 'survival of the fittest', through his readings of ideologues such as Alfred Rosenberg, Hitler came to view each nation as having a spirit rooted in racial ideals, he thought in the grand scheme of things only power mattered (a very distorted Nietzschean idea, we know he read Nietzsche because he had supported Nietzsche's sisters distorted publication of his works) and that the German nation would die as a result of Jewish pacifism and that the only way to resist it was to make Germany strong again and alienate Jewish influence.

    He had many other influences, i'll be happy to elaborate on each one if you are interested.

    In terms of (good, because everyone knows their disgusting legacy) influence iirc Nazi Germany was the first to ban vivisection,
    Thanks! Very informative! I learned a lot here.
    Last edited by mmatt9876; October 3rd, 2014 at 11:38 AM.
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    William Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich has been mentioned twice. It is, in my view, essential reading.

    Of the many excellent biographies of Hitler, Ian Kershaw's two volume work stands out. If you read only one biography of Hitler it should be this one.

    Hitler: 1889-1936 Hubris W.W.Norton & Company 1998 ISBN: 0-393-04671-0
    Hitler: 1936-1945 Nemesis W.W.Norton & Company 2000 ISBN: 0-393-04994-9
    Last edited by John Galt; October 3rd, 2014 at 02:03 AM. Reason: Inadvertently typed "Inside the Third Reich" instead of "The Rise and Fall.....". The former an autobiography of Albert Speer
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  13. #12  
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    Thanks for all the book suggestions guys!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    I can give you a general elucidation of Nazi ideology. It was inspired by the Counter Enlightenment which rejected the view that humans were ordered and rational, they instead believed that humans were emotional and chaotic (interestingly we can see this manifested even in Hitler's speeches), many believed in the organic solidarity of a nation based on an exaggerated mythology and nostalgica, right wing movements after the war were particularly nostalgicaic for the medieval period of (German) Arian Christianity free from the horrors they associated with modernism. Particular examples to support this can be found in the depictions of right wing political parties after the war, the most common being the image of a knight on a horseback; all of these ideals were common to the Romanticist movement (interestingly a key figure Rousseau has been criticised as being a precursor for totalitarian ideals in his Social Contract) It is also known that Hitler admired many Romantics such as Richard Wagner (who was also German, we know because of his relation to the Wagner family and his support for his music during the reich as well as his early biography which describes him attending the opera). They were also inherently anti-Semitic and associated Judaism with the Weimar Republic (which they blamed for supposingly stabbing Germany in the back) and believed that Judaism was the spirit of capitalism (this was fueld by anti-Semites like Henry Ford) since Jews were often expelled for practices of usury in many nations (particularly again medieval). Anti-semitism also partly spans from the agrarian background which many Nazi officials came from (such as Himmler) they came to resent landowners particularly during times of desperation (because many landowners exploited the workers by hoarding material), and these landowners were often stereotyped as parasitic and greedy Jews. Racicalism was also the result of a distorted version of the theory of evolution as applied to society, the ideas of Herbert Spencer who described the condition of the world as 'survival of the fittest', through his readings of ideologues such as Alfred Rosenberg, Hitler came to view each nation as having a spirit rooted in racial ideals, he thought in the grand scheme of things only power mattered (a very distorted Nietzschean idea, we know he read Nietzsche because he had supported Nietzsche's sisters distorted publication of his works) and that the German nation would die as a result of Jewish pacifism and that the only way to resist it was to make Germany strong again and alienate Jewish influence.

    He had many other influences, i'll be happy to elaborate on each one if you are interested.

    In terms of (good, because everyone knows their disgusting legacy) influence iirc Nazi Germany was the first to ban vivisection,
    Could you tell me more about the Counter Enlightenment?
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    Hitler was heavily influenced by a belief in occult powers and even until the end he probably believed that black magic could save him.
    See here:
    Jrg Lanz von Liebenfels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Check out Theozoology and Ariosophy.

    Lanz accused Hitler of having not only stolen but corrupted his idea, and also of being of "inferior racial stock".
    He wasn't a bit like a blonde Aryan, so why did he fool so many into this, I don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Could you tell me more about the Counter Enlightenment?
    I'm not familiar enough with the topic to provide a quick answer to your question but Wikipedia has a nice brief article on it:

    Counter-Enlightenment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    In terms of (good, because everyone knows their disgusting legacy) influence iirc Nazi Germany was the first to ban vivisection,
    They performed human vivisections. The name Josef Mengele ring any bells?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    In terms of (good, because everyone knows their disgusting legacy) influence iirc Nazi Germany was the first to ban vivisection,
    They performed human vivisections. The name Josef Mengele ring any bells?
    Well... on other animals at least.
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    Apparently when D Day happened at the 5 beaches rather than the expected main ports such as Calais ,Hitler's aides were too frightened to wake him up with the news (Rommel the head of the defenses was also absent at the time) .

    This caused a delay in the reorganization of the German defence and gained time for the allies.

    I wonder what he was dreaming about at the time
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Apparently when D Day happened at the 5 beaches rather than the expected main ports such as Calais ,Hitler's aides were too frightened to wake him up with the news (Rommel the head of the defenses was also absent at the time) .

    This caused a delay in the reorganization of the German defence and gained time for the allies.

    I wonder what he was dreaming about at the time
    The thought of Hitler dreaming of anything to me is profoundly interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post

    The thought of Hitler dreaming of anything to me is profoundly interesting.
    Your post #3 looks fascinating .I had no idea about (some of)that .I am also interested in D's strong assertion (in another thread) that the Germans never had a chance (and I think he means even before the Americans got involved).

    I am not in a position to dispute that but I would be surprised if it was a widely accepted opinion.
    Last edited by geordief; October 6th, 2014 at 10:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post

    The thought of Hitler dreaming of anything to me is profoundly interesting.
    Your post #3 looks fascinating .I had no idea about (some of)that .I am also interested in D's strong assertion (in another thread) that the Germans never had a chance (and I think he means even before the Americans got involved).

    I am not in a position to dispute that but I would be surprised if it was a widely accepted opinion.
    By the time America got involved, Germany would have lost anyway. Russia did a lot more to hurt Hitler than America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    By the time America got involved, Germany would have lost anyway. Russia did a lot more to hurt Hitler than America.
    I got the impression that he (Dwyddyr) thought that Germany was doomed to defeat from the start( something about the British Empire was too strong and the British military/industrial output was stronger than Germany's)

    My belief was always that Britain was saved by luck and bad German judgement at a critical stage in the "War of Britain" (I assumed that an invasion would have been followed by capitulation but perhaps I am just defeatist).

    On top of that I assumed that the defeat of Britain would have allowed Germany to destroy the USSR.

    But I am no historian.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    I am also interested in D's strong assertion (in another thread) that the Germans never had a chance (and I think he means even before the Americans got involved).
    I am not in a position to dispute that but I would be surprised if it was a widely accepted opinion.
    It's not a widely accepted opinion, although I gather that it is becoming so among historians.
    The long-sustained tale of "plucky little Britain holding out against the odds was politically useful (especially from a national identity perspective)" and will, probably, take much to dispel.
    Once that's done maybe the genuine facts will emerge, although I personally found the "Germans never had a chance" position more than compelling having read, and re-read, Edgerton's book.
    At the very least it's a "cure" for the plethora of "pro-German" exposs of numerous unstoppable world-beating wunderwaffen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    By the time America got involved, Germany would have lost anyway. Russia did a lot more to hurt Hitler than America.
    I got the impression that he (Dwyddyr) thought that Germany was doomed to defeat from the start( something about the British Empire was too strong and the British military/industrial output was stronger than Germany's)

    My belief was always that Britain was saved by luck and bad German judgement at a critical stage in the "War of Britain" (I assumed that an invasion would have been followed by capitulation but perhaps I am just defeatist).

    On top of that I assumed that the defeat of Britain would have allowed Germany to destroy the USSR.

    But I am no historian.
    Me neither, though credit is due to Britain in that they fought the longest and probably the hardest against the Nazis. And if Britain had declared war on Germany back when Churchill recommended it, under Chamberlain's command, Britain could have won the war practically single handed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    And if Britain had declared war on Germany back when Churchill recommended it, under Chamberlain's command, Britain could have won the war practically single handed.
    If France had genuinely pushed the Saar Offensive it's possible that, even if they hadn't completely defeated Germany, the war would have taken a much different course.
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    Wasn't the Battle of Britain key to the Germans knocking Britain, and thus the British Empire, out the war?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Wasn't the Battle of Britain key to the Germans knocking Britain, and thus the British Empire, out the war?
    If the Germans had won the BoB then there would have been a chance (albeit slight 1) of a successful invasion.
    Had that happened there was Churchill's previously-declared intention to relocate the government to one of the Dominions (IIRC Canada was top choice) and run the war from there.

    1 There was still the Royal Navy to contend with during Channel crossings for the invasion barges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Wasn't the Battle of Britain key to the Germans knocking Britain, and thus the British Empire, out the war?
    If the Germans had won the BoB then there would have been a chance (albeit slight 1) of a successful invasion.
    Had that happened there was Churchill's previously-declared intention to relocate the government to one of the Dominions (IIRC Canada was top choice) and run the war from there.

    1 There was still the Royal Navy to contend with during Channel crossings for the invasion barges.
    Informative.

    I was hoping you would contribute to this thread Dywyddyr, especially with some good book recommendations, I bet you've probably got thousands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Informative.
    I was hoping you would contribute to this thread Dywyddyr, especially with some good book recommendations, I bet you've probably got thousands.
    Apart from the likes of Edgerton's book 1 most of my reading is on the technical aspects of the war (the equipment and the tactics/ strategy) rather than the politics 2.
    But I did find Adam Tooze's Wages of Destruction informative (about the German economy).
    I'd suggest Guderian's Panzer Leader for a look at German perspectives of battles.
    Oh, and Len Deighton's books Blitzkrieg: From the Rise of Hitler to the Fall of Dunkirk 6 and Blood, Tears and Folly: An Objective Look at World War II (which follows the previous book) as worthwhile.

    However, with regard to "What military achievements in technology did they achieve/lead in?" I can list a number of books that should be avoided (or, at best, read with a large bag of salt to hand). Witkowski being one, any that references "flying suacers" 3, any by Farrell, any that mentions die Glocke with a straight face.
    Plus view as outdated any that makes extensive mention of blitzkrieg 4, um, and any that claims the Germans were first with jet engines. Or that the Me 262 was the first jet into service 5.

    1 Link here for those that haven't seen my previous references to it.
    2 I gave up on politics decades ago, after nearly being elected to my home town's local council.
    3 Including one published many years ago by Jane's of all publishers.
    4 Hopefully this myth is now laid to rest after Karl-Heinz Frieser got his meisterwerk published.
    5 Although this is a minor, and disputable by way of definition, quibble.
    6 Yes I know it has "blitzkrieg" in the title (he uses the word as a signifier for a period of history rather than an actual German military manoeuvre) but Deighton was, to my knowledge, the first writer to point out that blitzkrieg per se didn't happen and argued, with examples that the majority of battles involving armour during this period were traditional kesselschlachten.
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    Cheers Dywyddyr , btw read a great fictional novel of die Glocke. Pretty sure though that the fictional story is probably extremely far from any possible reality.
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    I first came across die Glocke in Nick Cook's Hunt for Zero Point (found and bought Witkowski's book a couple of years later 1).
    Considering that Cook had once been a good reporter for JDW 2 he managed to ignore all rationality and get himself suckered into complete woo.
    (Even failing basic investigative procedures by accepting stuff like Renato Vesco and his book Intercept - But Don't Shoot at face value. Hmm, a book written by a guy who wasn't in a position to know - despite the claims on the cover - and made up complete bullsh*t that should have been obvious to anyone who knew anything about German equipment nomenclature...)

    1 Witkowski does contain some interesting material, e.g. (purported) German documents on wepaons using the Misznay–Schardin effect, it's hard to tell (given some of the other thoroughly unsupported or obviously false claims he makes) how seriously to take the stuff I haven't seen referenced in any other source.
    2 After reading his book I almost regretted having a subscription to that magazine!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceF1 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Would World War 2 have began without Hitler?
    I don't think so. The cause of WWII was Hitler's invasion of Poland. If Hitler was not in power, I don't believe the German govt and military would have invaded Poland.
    Interesting to consider what might have happened if the Nazi party took power and then didn't go to war. Maybe the Jews would still have gone to concentration camps, except nobody would come to rescue them?

    Much like how Stalin put most of the Crimean Tatars into concentration camps (which were called gulags) and decimated their population, all without drawing any real international attention. I think quite a lot of groups of people have suffered similar fates over the years. The Jewish holocaust just gets more attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post

    By the time America got involved, Germany would have lost anyway. Russia did a lot more to hurt Hitler than America.
    America's direct role was probably not necessary, because Russia was going to reach Berlin regardless. However, had America not gotten involved, it's likely Russia would have gotten all of Germany, instead of just "East Germany".

    But it's hard to know for sure just how valuable the air raids and artillery support were. America had quite a powerful airforce, but bombing raids don't generate high kill ratios in terms of soldiers dying. Its more a matter of crippling infrastructure. A less measurable benefit.

    America probably had the best ratio of infrastructure to soldier of any nation in the war. Lots of force multipliers, but applied to a smaller force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceF1 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    Would World War 2 have began without Hitler?
    I don't think so. The cause of WWII was Hitler's invasion of Poland. If Hitler was not in power, I don't believe the German govt and military would have invaded Poland.
    Interesting to consider what might have happened if the Nazi party took power and then didn't go to war. Maybe the Jews would still have gone to concentration camps, except nobody would come to rescue them?

    Much like how Stalin put most of the Crimean Tatars into concentration camps (which were called gulags) and decimated their population, all without drawing any real international attention. I think quite a lot of groups of people have suffered similar fates over the years. The Jewish holocaust just gets more attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post

    By the time America got involved, Germany would have lost anyway. Russia did a lot more to hurt Hitler than America.
    America's direct role was probably not necessary, because Russia was going to reach Berlin regardless. However, had America not gotten involved, it's likely Russia would have gotten all of Germany, instead of just "East Germany".

    But it's hard to know for sure just how valuable the air raids and artillery support were. America had quite a powerful airforce, but bombing raids don't generate high kill ratios in terms of soldiers dying. Its more a matter of crippling infrastructure. A less measurable benefit.

    America probably had the best ratio of infrastructure to soldier of any nation in the war. Lots of force multipliers, but applied to a smaller force.
    Our insane vehicle turn out was more important than our number of infantry, anyway.
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    Anyone know the truth behind something I heard on the radio or television in the past week : that Churchill was in favour of "continuing to Moscow".

    I had heard this about an American general (Patton?) but not Churchill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Anyone know the truth behind something I heard on the radio or television in the past week : that Churchill was in favour of "continuing to Moscow".

    I had heard this about an American general (Patton?) but not Churchill.
    I have also read this. Patton was actually somewhat vocal about it. The heart of Russia wouldn't be as vulnerable for decades and Britain's/The US' war machines were already in full swing.
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    I am shocked.

    How could he have sold that? I guess selling it to the Tchecks and the Poles may not have been too hard.

    Would the Russians have welcomed it?

    Would it (if it was successful ) have actually been a good idea with good consequences?

    Should Churchill have got the Iron Balls medal?
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Anyone know the truth behind something I heard on the radio or television in the past week : that Churchill was in favour of "continuing to Moscow".
    I had heard this about an American general (Patton?) but not Churchill.
    Could be a reference to Operation Unthinkable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post

    The long-sustained tale of "plucky little Britain holding out against the odds was politically useful (especially from a national identity perspective)" and will, probably, take much to dispel.
    Roosevelt wanted to help GB but he was dealing with a lot of isolationists. He needed to convince congress that Churchill needed help but at the same time Roosevelt had to convince congress that GB was not a lost cause.
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    I understand it was the sinking in harbour of the French navy by the British that convinced the USA that Britain had the balls to follow through and do what was required.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    I understand it was the sinking in harbour of the French navy by the British that convinced the USA that Britain had the balls to follow through and do what was required.

    The French were not happy but Churchill offered harbor to the French fleet. Churchill knew the French fleet would fall into German hands so he had no alternative. It was a painful decision that also sent a strong message.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceF1 View Post
    It was a painful decision that also sent a strong message.
    The only pain was from laughing so hard, and the strong message was: "We really don't like the French".

    (None of that is actually true.)
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    Here is a link to an interesting looking book on Amazon I found about World War 2:

    https://www.amazon.com/World-War-II-...ds=world+war+2
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    My mother was born and raised in Slovenia (AKA as the former Yugoslavia). She lived through the Nazi's.

    It wasn't pretty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My mother was born and raised in Slovenia (AKA as the former Yugoslavia). She lived through the Nazi's.

    It wasn't pretty.
    I am sorry to hear that your mother had to live through World War 2.

    My German American grandfather was born in the USA in 1928 and joined the US Navy in 1946 when he was old enough to enlist. He missed fighting in World War 2, thankfully, and he served in the US Navy until 1950.

    World War 2 was ugly, especially because of the Holocaust.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My mother was born and raised in Slovenia (AKA as the former Yugoslavia). She lived through the Nazi's.

    It wasn't pretty.
    Did she have any personal stories she shared with you?

    Yugoslavia was one of the Soviet block whose government, after the war held some respect in England insofar as they were not seen as Moscow's poodles and were prepared to at least attempt to hold their ground against it if push came to shove.
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    im of Finnish descent and werent they sort of in with Germany for a few months?im a little german

    as far as i know hitler was into eastern religion and i think he really hated his own people just like present day german gov does

    some german jews helped hitler i think
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    The Jews who fought for Hitler: 'We did not help the Germans. We had a common enemy' - Telegraph
    The Jews who fought for Hitler: 'We did not help the Germans. We had a common enemy' - Telegraph


    i got a book"after the Reich"

    https://www.amazon.com/After-Reich-B.../dp/0465003389

    When Hitlers government collapsed in 1945, Germany was immediately divided up under the control of the Allied Powers and the Soviets. A nation in tatters, in many places literally flattened by bombs, was suddenly subjected to brutal occupation by vengeful victors. According to recent estimates, as many as two million German women were raped by Soviet occupiers. General Eisenhower denied the Germans access to any foreign aid, meaning that German civilians were forced to subsist on about 1,200 calories a day. (American officials privately acknowledged at the time that the death rate amongst adults had risen to four times the pre-war levels; child mortality had increased tenfold). With the authorization of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, over four million Germans were impressed into forced labor. General George S. Patton was so disgusted by American policy in post-war Germany that he commented in his diary, It is amusing to recall that we fought the revolution in defense of the rights of man and the civil war to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles"
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    when allies bombed Dresden about 200 jews died
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My mother was born and raised in Slovenia (AKA as the former Yugoslavia). She lived through the Nazi's.

    It wasn't pretty.
    Did she have any personal stories she shared with you?

    Yugoslavia was one of the Soviet block whose government, after the war held some respect in England insofar as they were not seen as Moscow's poodles and were prepared to at least attempt to hold their ground against it if push came to shove.

    Yes, but the atrocities she saw was horrific. Family murdered in front of her, hiding her brothers to keep the Armies from commandeering them, lack of food as they'd come and take all the food, kill livestock ......and leave. I don't think she ever recovered from the atrocities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geordief View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My mother was born and raised in Slovenia (AKA as the former Yugoslavia). She lived through the Nazi's.

    It wasn't pretty.
    Did she have any personal stories she shared with you?

    Yugoslavia was one of the Soviet block whose government, after the war held some respect in England insofar as they were not seen as Moscow's poodles and were prepared to at least attempt to hold their ground against it if push came to shove.

    Yes, but the atrocities she saw was horrific. Family murdered in front of her, hiding her brothers to keep the Armies from commandeering them, lack of food as they'd come and take all the food, kill livestock ......and leave. I don't think she ever recovered from the atrocities.
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    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
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    https://www.amazon.com/DIARY-NAPOLEO.../dp/B007UH4DJK


    A grunt’s-eye report from the battlefield in the spirit of The Red Badge of Courage and All Quiet on the Western Front—the only known account by a common soldier of the campaigns of Napoleon’s Grand Army between 1806 and 1813.

    When eighteen-year-old German stonemason Jakob Walter was conscripted into the Grand Army of Napoleon, he had no idea of the trials that lay ahead. The long, grueling marches in Prussia and Poland sacrificed countless men to Bonaparte’s grand designs. And the disastrous Russian campaign tested human endurance on an epic scale. Demoralized by defeat in a war few supported or understood, deprived of ammunition and leadership, driven past reason by starvation and bitter cold, men often turned on one another, killing fellow soldiers for bread or an able horse.
    Though there are numerous surviving accounts of the Napoleonic Wars written by officers, Walter’s is the only known memoir by a draftee, and as such is a unique and fascinating document—a compelling chronicle of a young soldier’s loss of innocence as well as an eloquent and moving portrait of the profound effects of war on the men who fight it.
    Professor Marc Raeff has added an Introduction to the memoirs as well as six letters home from the Russian front, previously unpublished in English, from German conscripts who served concurrently with Walter. The volume is illustrated with engravings and maps, contemporary with the manuscript, from the Russian/Soviet and
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
    Both of my grandfathers fought in World War II, both have passed away in the last ten years. They never really talked about the war, I know one of them was part of the Normandy Landings. Otherwise I don't really know a lot about their service, I regret not asking them about it when they were alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHolmes View Post
    https://www.amazon.com/DIARY-NAPOLEO.../dp/B007UH4DJK


    A grunt’s-eye report from the battlefield in the spirit of The Red Badge of Courage and All Quiet on the Western Front—the only known account by a common soldier of the campaigns of Napoleon’s Grand Army between 1806 and 1813....
    While I find the Napoleonic Wars fascinating, I'm not sure of the relevance to this thread, perhaps you meant to start a new thread?
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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    Falconer, many didn't wish to speak of it.....I get that.

    I also respect it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Falconer, many didn't wish to speak of it.....I get that.

    I also respect it.
    Oh same here, I just don't think the main reason they never told me much is a combination of being young and me seeing them maybe once a year on average due to geographic distance. Like it's been two years since I last saw my one grandmother and before that it had been about five years, but back when my grandpa was alive they would come visit for about a month every year.

    I just know from experience that talking to people who lived through it gives you a unique perspective than what history books or documentaries show. My previous neighbor was a child/teen during the war and spent time in a concentration camp. He passed away several years ago due to heart trouble, but he told some fascinating stories about the ordeal. He was never shy about the numbers on his arm either. Talking about it seemed to be therapeutic for him.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

    "It is easy to kill someone with a slash of a sword. It is hard to be impossible for others to cut down"
    - Yagyu Munenori

    "Only a warrior chooses pacifism; others are condemned to it."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
    Both of my grandfathers fought in World War II, both have passed away in the last ten years. They never really talked about the war, I know one of them was part of the Normandy Landings. Otherwise I don't really know a lot about their service, I regret not asking them about it when they were alive.
    My grandfather joined the US Navy back in 1946 after World War 2 ended when he was old enough to enlist. I regret never asking him about his time in the Navy when I was younger when he was still alive. Maybe I should talk to my father or one of my uncles about my grandfathers time in the Navy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
    I'm rather glad that more historians are recognizing the Western bias in those dates... with many starting to define the start as 1937, when Japan invaded the Chinese mainland.

    My parental grandfather was a WWI vet who'd get very emotional at any questions about the war. My grandfather on my mom's side a vet of WWII suffered from what we'd classify at severe PTSD, irrational reactions to noises, nightmares decades after the war and inability to close to anyone including his children. Both were general infantry. Given the horrors of war (I've been in two of them) I'm not surprised not many are willing to talk about it, with anyone but someone they shared the experience with--I'm much the same way.

    --
    More to the point, I think there's a good chance WWII would have happened regardless of Hitler. Hitler played almost no role in the Asian theater--where some kind of major confrontation between the empire of Japan and Western allies had been building since at least 1900. In Europe, the combination of harsh treatment of WWI losers, strong anti-Semitic forms of Christianity coupled with racial nationalism made it a power keg.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; September 18th, 2017 at 06:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
    I'm rather glad that more historians are recognizing the Western bias in those dates... with many starting to define the start as 1937, when Japan invaded the Chinese mainland.
    I guess people had been focusing more on Europe than Asia during that time in history when it came to the actual beginning of World War 2. Were Germany and Japan allied at that time?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mmatt9876 View Post
    It is hard to believe World War Two started 78 years ago in 1939. Sadly there are not too many World War 2 veterans alive today to tell stories. Those veterans that are still around have to be in their nineties or one hundreds by now.
    My parental grandfather was a WWI vet who'd get very emotional at any questions about the war. My grandfather on my mom's side a vet of WWII suffered from what we'd classify at severe PTSD, irrational reactions to noises, nightmares decades after the war and inability to close to anyone including his children. Both were general infantry. Given the horrors of war (I've been in two of them) I'm not surprised not many are willing to talk about it, with anyone but someone they shared the experience with--I'm much the same way.
    Yea, I did not realize the toll a war can do on a soldier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    --
    More to the point, I think there's a good chance WWII would have happened regardless of Hitler. Hitler played almost role in the Asian theater--where some kind of major confrontation between the empire of Japan and Western allies had been building since at least 1900. In Europe, the combination of harsh treatment of WWI losers, strong anti-Semitic forms of Christianity coupled with racial nationalism made it a power keg.
    So Hitler was mostly just a vehicle for the underlying tension and problems that could have one way or another culminated in World War 2?
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