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Thread: White slavery in America

  1. #1 White slavery in America 
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    Hi,

    I read a few articles and saw a few videos concerning white slavery in America. Basically the theory says that a significant proportion of the white population immigrating to America (so called indentured servant) were in fact slaves.

    This is completely new to me, and really shocking.

    Here is a discussion on the subject.

    I would like the opinion of a real historian. Is it really true or a nonsensical farfetched idea?

    Nic.


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  3. #2  
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    According to Indentured servant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    About half of the white immigrants to the American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were indentured...


    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    According to Indentured servant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    About half of the white immigrants to the American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were indentured...
    That's right, but there is a distinction between the concept of indentured servant and slave. Some say they were in fact treated as slaves and were not treated better than blacks. In some instances they were even treated worse than blacks because they cost less than blacks. Blacks cost more because it was harder to get them, they had to be brought from Africa etc...

    You can check the video I posted. There are also a lot of links on the internet talking about that.
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  5. #4  
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    Sorry, I don't accept youtube as a decent source, nor do I watch hour plus videos. Find me some actual documentation i.e. shipping manifests, contracts, bill of lading, etc, and I'll look at it.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Sorry, I don't accept youtube as a decent source, nor do I watch hour plus videos. Find me some actual documentation i.e. shipping manifests, contracts, bill of lading, etc, and I'll look at it.
    You'd have to read the books on the subject. Are you a historian?
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  7. #6  
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    Are you a historian?
    No, just an educated layman. Now that I think about it, I don't think I know any professional historians.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Are you a historian?
    No, just an educated layman. Now that I think about it, I don't think I know any professional historians.
    "educated layman" is nice but not enough to discuss this, unless you are willing to document yourself on the subject, in which case it will take you much more than one hour.

    Sorry I don't talk to people who are full of themselves and don't want to learn.


    Any historian here would care give a really educated comment?
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  9. #8  
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    Any historian here would care give a really educated comment?
    So your looking for an authority figure who can give you the answer you want to get.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Any historian here would care give a really educated comment?
    So your looking for an authority figure who can give you the answer you want to get.
    Sounds like you got it... the answer I want to get is that of someone competent. ( unlike you who would love to pretend that you are, which btw qualifies you as a troll. )

    Do you think Feynman was full of himself?
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  11. #10  
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    unlike you who would love to pretend that you are,
    I don't pretend to be an authority.

    Do you think Feynman was full of himself?
    No, but I think you are.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Being the troll that you are, what you think is rather unlikely to be correct, so I'm doing just fine.

    Are you going to pollute this thread for long or are you FINALLY going to want to learn something by documenting yourself? In other words, are you a complete troll?

    ( why do I even bother asking the question when the answer is so obvious lol )
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  13. #12  
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    Reported for being insulting.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  14. #13  
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    You are not Feynman either, you know that, so you can take that kind of remark with philosophy...
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    "Indentured servitude was a labour system whereby young people paid for their passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years. It was widely employed in the 18th century in the British colonies in North America and elsewhere. It was especially used as a way for poor youth in Britain and the German states to get passage to the American colonies."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

    The subject is covered in most basic college (freshman) level American history books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClarenceF1 View Post
    "Indentured servitude was a labour system whereby young people paid for their passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years. It was widely employed in the 18th century in the British colonies in North America and elsewhere. It was especially used as a way for poor youth in Britain and the German states to get passage to the American colonies."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentured_servant

    The subject is covered in most basic college (freshman) level American history books.
    You ought to have a look at the video. It is really pretty good. Yes, there was the kind of indentured servitude we learned about in school, but in many cases people were conned into it and their labor was worth far more than the price of the passage. Also, according to the historians interviewed in the video, children were outright kidnapped, or spirited, from coastal cities in England and sold to work in America. Boys were impressed into ships' crews, much as the plot of Robert Louis Stevenson's novel Kidnapped.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Hi,

    I read a few articles and saw a few videos concerning white slavery in America. Basically the theory says that a significant proportion of the white population immigrating to America (so called indentured servant) were in fact slaves.

    This is completely new to me, and really shocking.
    Can you explain to me what you find 'really shocking' about this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Is it really true or a nonsensical farfetched idea?
    Far-fetched? Why so?
    Indentured labor still goes on, surely you realize that.
    Makes me wonder about your education, and theirs (in the vid).
    Ever hear of a company store?
    Many times the concepts combine and overlap.
    Man (or woman) signs contract to work for years in a foreign land to pay for the safe extrication of his family from their home country. Additional costs are added so as to extend his indenture permanently.
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    If you read some of the history of Irish imigration to the USA you realize they were treated even worse than the black slaves in the south were.
    The Irish Slave Trade
    The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.
    Slavery in the British Isles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Following the Irish uprising in 1641 and subsequent Cromwellian invasion, the English Parliament passed the Act for the Settlement of Ireland 1652 which classified the Irish population into one of several categories according to their degree of involvement in the uprising and subsequent war. Those who had participated in the uprising or assisted the rebels in any way were sentenced to be hanged and to have their property confiscated. Other categories were sentenced to banishment with whole or partial confiscation of their estates. Whilst the majority of the resettlement took place within Ireland to the province of Connaught, Dr William Petty, Physician-General to Cromwell's Army, estimated that as many as 100,000 Irish men, women and children were transported to the colonies in the West Indies and in North America as slaves.[18] During the early colonial period, The Scots and the English, along with other western European nations, dealt with their "Gypsy problem" by transporting them as slaves in large numbers to North America and the Caribbean. Cromwell shipped Romanichal Gypsies as slaves to the southern plantations and there is documentation of Gypsies being owned by former black slaves in Jamaica.[19]Long before the Highland Clearances, some chiefs, such as Ewen Cameron of Lochiel, sold some of his clan into indenture in North America. His goal was to alleviate over-population and lack of food resources in his glens.
    Numerous Highland Jacobite supporters, captured in the aftermath of Culloden and rigorous Government sweeps of the Highlands, were imprisoned on ships on the Thames River. Some were sentenced to transportation to the Carolinas as indentured servants.[20]

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    Americans may have a racial view of slavery, but historically, slavery existed for several reasons other than race or culture. The winner of a battle might enslave prisoners of war, instead of executing them. Someone might sell himself into slavery in order to pay off a debt, instead of being murdered by the creditors. Etc. And of course, the indenturement of white, young Europeans too poor to pay for their passage to America. There was also the indenturement of someone to a master of a trade in order to learn the trade.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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  21. #20  
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    In many historical writings, KJV bible included, the word servant is often synonymous with the word slave.

    Indentureship is also a form of bondage in this sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Hi,

    I read a few articles and saw a few videos concerning white slavery in America. Basically the theory says that a significant proportion of the white population immigrating to America (so called indentured servant) were in fact slaves.

    This is completely new to me, and really shocking.
    Can you explain to me what you find 'really shocking' about this?
    Well, you're not shocked that humans are enslaved?
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Well, you're not shocked that humans are enslaved?
    Enslavement is hardly a new phenomenon, whereas shock is defined, for example as "a sudden upsetting or surprising event or experience". Since, I have been aware of enslavement for some time I can hardly be shocked by it.

    It appears from the context in which you made the statement that you are shocked by the enslavement of whites, but indifferent to the enslavement of blacks. I was seeking to discover if that was the case.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Well, you're not shocked that humans are enslaved?
    Enslavement is hardly a new phenomenon, whereas shock is defined, for example as "a sudden upsetting or surprising event or experience". Since, I have been aware of enslavement for some time I can hardly be shocked by it.

    It appears from the context in which you made the statement that you are shocked by the enslavement of whites, but indifferent to the enslavement of blacks. I was seeking to discover if that was the case.
    We should never become accustomed to this kind of things. Every time we learn slavery has happened somewhere we should be shocked.

    Another instance is the slavery which is still happening in some sub-saharan countries ( muslims enslaving blacks ). It is a common practice I learned about not long ago, and I am also shoked. Slavery performed on blacks by muslims has been happenning since Mohamed and is not very well know. It was even worse than any other form of slavery. Men were systematically castrated, often amputed and women were sex slaves. I will always be shocked when I hear about that kind of things.
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  25. #24  
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    What's your problem, Nic? Alex was in no way being unreasobable.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    We should never become accustomed to this (sic) kind of things.
    Accustomed? Well, if two conditions are met then we should expect to be accustomed to it. The two conditions would be that slavery is commonplace and the second that we honour the English language. There is certainly a great deal of slavery in the world today. Is it enough to be called commonplace? I am not sure, but it is certainly disturbing that the question could be considered a reasonable one.

    Anyway, I have no idea why you are making such a statement. Surely you meant to say we should never approve of these kind of things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Every time we learn slavery has happened somewhere we should be shocked.
    In order to be shocked I would require a combination of naivety and disregard for ill treatment of fellow humans. How else could the news of such slavery be sufficiently unexpected to shock me?

    And you still seem to have avoided addressing my central concern, which was the implicit racism in your OP.
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    And you still seem to have avoided addressing my central concern, which was the implicit racism in your OP.
    'Scuse me? YOU seem to have found something racist about it, no one else has as far as I know.

    Now I'll tell you frankly, I find shocking the fact that you have become accustomed to something like slavery to the point that you don't find it shocking anymore. And I am sure I am not the only one to think so.

    Keep your lessons to yourself...
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In order to be shocked I would require a combination of naivety and disregard for ill treatment of fellow humans. How else could the news of such slavery be sufficiently unexpected to shock me?

    And you still seem to have avoided addressing my central concern, which was the implicit racism in your OP.
    I think you have your racism detector turned up to way too high a sensitivity. There was no implicit racism. Someone might be shocked to learn about white slavery if they did not know about it, and it is not common knowledge. No one would be shocked to learn about black slavery. Perhaps they would be appalled, ashamed, or whatever, but not shocked.
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  29. #28  
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    I was not shocked much by my discovery that slave labour still exists in the world, but I was shocked when I discovered the extent of the sex slave trade in the world.
    FBI — Human Sex Trafficking
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Someone might be shocked to learn about white slavery if they did not know about it, and it is not common knowledge.
    I'm shocked to learn that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Someone might be shocked to learn about white slavery if they did not know about it, and it is not common knowledge.
    I'm shocked to learn that.
    Well, maybe people are more educated about this in the UK. I certainly didn't learn about it in school, though I did know a little bit about it from reading things over the years. We did learn about the African slave trade in school, and about indentured servitude which is a bit different.
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  32. #31  
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    I was trying to convey my underlying message through the use of irony. The original use of "shocked" by Nic carries with it, to my mind, a great deal of ambiguity. I was seeking to illustrate that potential ambiguity by using the word in a similar context where multiple interpretations were possible. Thus, did I mean I was genuinely shocked, or was I poking fun at those expressing shock, or........
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I was trying to convey my underlying message through the use of irony. The original use of "shocked" by Nic carries with it, to my mind, a great deal of ambiguity. I was seeking to illustrate that potential ambiguity by using the word in a similar context where multiple interpretations were possible. Thus, did I mean I was genuinely shocked, or was I poking fun at those expressing shock, or........
    So you think Nic's use of the words "really shocking" is a bit hyperbolic? Maybe so.
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  34. #33  
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    I thought it ambiguous and one interpretation was hyperbole.
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  35. #34  
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    blablabla...
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    blablabla...
    Not a good answer!
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    I was not shocked much by my discovery that slave labour still exists in the world, but I was shocked when I discovered the extent of the sex slave trade in the world.
    FBI — Human Sex Trafficking
    I live about 40 miles from the Canadian Border, last year the Border Patrol busted someone trying to smuggle about thirty girls across the border to be used as sex slaves. Understandably this shocked and scared the locals quite a bit. Keep in mind this was in a County that has a population of about 6000 people. If a person hears about the sex slave industry in the US, they are generally shocked but figure "Oh that only happens in large cities like Chicago or Seattle. Not anywhere near me." But the reality is that the industry is so large that it happens virtually everywhere in the US.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    I was not shocked much by my discovery that slave labour still exists in the world, but I was shocked when I discovered the extent of the sex slave trade in the world.
    FBI — Human Sex Trafficking
    I live about 40 miles from the Canadian Border, last year the Border Patrol busted someone trying to smuggle about thirty girls across the border to be used as sex slaves. Understandably this shocked and scared the locals quite a bit. Keep in mind this was in a County that has a population of about 6000 people. If a person hears about the sex slave industry in the US, they are generally shocked but figure "Oh that only happens in large cities like Chicago or Seattle. Not anywhere near me." But the reality is that the industry is so large that it happens virtually everywhere in the US.
    One of the primary reasons to legalize prostitution. Though I fear we've spread to far from the OP. Not telling anyone else what to do, but I'd participate in a new thread on the subject.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer360 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    I was not shocked much by my discovery that slave labour still exists in the world, but I was shocked when I discovered the extent of the sex slave trade in the world.
    FBI — Human Sex Trafficking
    I live about 40 miles from the Canadian Border, last year the Border Patrol busted someone trying to smuggle about thirty girls across the border to be used as sex slaves. Understandably this shocked and scared the locals quite a bit. Keep in mind this was in a County that has a population of about 6000 people. If a person hears about the sex slave industry in the US, they are generally shocked but figure "Oh that only happens in large cities like Chicago or Seattle. Not anywhere near me." But the reality is that the industry is so large that it happens virtually everywhere in the US.
    One of the primary reasons to legalize prostitution. Though I fear we've spread to far from the OP. Not telling anyone else what to do, but I'd participate in a new thread on the subject.
    Just created one in the Criminology and Forensic science subforum. I look forward to the discussion.
    "For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled." Hunter S Thompson

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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    blablabla...
    Not a good answer!
    What else am I supposed to answer to such trolling?

    Here is what John Galt send me in pm:
    Which tends to support my suspicion that you were more interested in expostulating than explaining. But I have only a mild concern with the impression you create on the forum. Perhaps you have none.
    First of all check the pompous term 'expostulating'. Second of all, he seems to still have failed to understand what I said before, that is to say, the fact that there was absolutely nothing racist in my first post.

    I am sure that you yourself never saw any racist intention in my first post.

    John Galt clearly is looking for trouble here. His position of moderator doesn't give him the right to say anything he wants to anyone, especially when the person has been abundently clear.

    If he still fails to comprehend after a clear explanation, one can really wonder about his status of moderator.

    You don't have to take his defense only because he is a moderator, given the fact that you yourself never saw any racism in what I said. It should be clear to you or to anybody with objectivity, and who doesn't want to abide to anything the moderators say, that he is looking again and again for trouble.

    What would you say if someone made it sound that you are a racist and you don't give a rat's ass about black slavery? And that you make it even clearer in a reply, and he continues to insist? Wouldn't that get on your nerves, and wouldn't you consider this person nothing else but a troll?
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    Blablabla... is still not a good answer.
    You should have responded to John in the thread directly instead.
    You had already made most of your points in your previous responses to him. You could have simply recapped them to complete your statement.


    By the way, I really don't care what he sent you in a personal message either. It is irrelevant.
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    You are trying to take his defense here. Why, when you know he is definitely looking for trouble when there was nothing racist in my OP. You do that simply because he is the moderator.

    Am I supposed to reply and re-explain the same thing 10 times, when I know that the person is a troll and will never want to accept what I say?

    He is the only one to have understood something racist in the post, I am not a psychologist or whatever...

    I posted what he sent me in PM to show everyone, including the other moderators, that he continues to look for trouble.

    If he manages to get me banned for that, anyone will clearly have seen that he has a problem, he likes to create trouble by abusing of his moderator status. He loves to give people unwarranted lessons of morals when he is not in a position to claim to be better than anybody else.

    He is maybe a moderator, but he is still a troll. I can be patient, but I am not going to shut up eternally because mister is a moderator.
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    Relax, I am not defending John, he is quite capable of defending himself.
    (I have had arguments with him in the past so I know.)

    If you take another look Harold took your side on this one too and suggested John had turned his racism detector up too high. So chill out for a moment and either ignore his comment or give a solid rebuttal to it.

    Like I said, "blablabla..." is not a good answer and you are capable of a better response to him than that without any rudeness needed.
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  44. #43  
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    Nic, all you had to do was to say at the outset something like "No, you have misunderstood me, I am equally dismayed by the slavery that was practiced on blacks, but I have only just become aware of this white slavery." That would have been perfectly satisfactory. However, you chose not to do anything. That raised my suspicions further and so I pursued it further. I have an obligation as a moderator to keep racist remarks and attitudes out of this forum. I imagine you would wish that too. So, why object when I seek to do a job whose objectives you would agree with?

    As to abusing moderator powers, please point to a single instance in all the years I have been a moderator here when I have abused those powers. When I post, as I am doing now, I post as a member, subject to the same rules as you and all the other members. If you choose to view me differently because I have a moderator tag attached then that is a problem of your making, not mine.

    It is against etiquette on the internet to reveal the contents of pms without the permission of the writer. It is rude and vulgar. (On most forums it is a banable offense.)

    Expostulate was deliberately chosen in that message because it gives an alliterative feel with explain. I never apologise for seeking to make my writing more interesting.
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    Geez better late than never.

    What you have done since your first intervention in this thread is not moderating, it is harassing. Not only did the OP not have anything racist in it ( for anyone but you ), but I also made it very clear in my replies to you that I was also shocked that blacks had been enslaved ( and are still being enslaved ).

    Another moderator tried to make you understand, to no avail.

    When I copied your PM here, what I did was expose to everyone the fact that you were continuing to harass me. Now that you have been caught doing that, what else can you do than finding desperate excuses.

    You said you haven't had any problem on this forum before, I have no way of knowing because I am relatively new to the forum and I haven't seen many ot your posts. However, Dan said in his last post that he has had arguments with you in the past.

    Why did you react like that with me I can only speculate. Is it because you take the issue of racism so much at heart, or is it because of some psychological reason ( that you are some sort of narcissist who wants to exploit his position of moderator to harass people ).

    I can't know for sure but for christ sake it's tiring, so leave me alone now with these stupidities.
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    You seem to confuse an ongoing discussion as harassment.
    You seem to confuse an explanation of events as making excuses. (I have nothing to excuse.)
    You seem to confuse a lively debate (between me and Dan) as a problem.
    Quite a lot of confusion.

    But, you shall have your wish. One of the many downsides in being a moderator is that I cannot put you on Ignore. However, I shall be ignoring you in future.
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  47. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Geez better late than never.

    What you have done since your first intervention in this thread is not moderating, it is harassing. Not only did the OP not have anything racist in it ( for anyone but you ), but I also made it very clear in my replies to you that I was also shocked that blacks had been enslaved ( and are still being enslaved ).

    Another moderator tried to make you understand, to no avail.

    When I copied your PM here, what I did was expose to everyone the fact that you were continuing to harass me. Now that you have been caught doing that, what else can you do than finding desperate excuses.

    You said you haven't had any problem on this forum before, I have no way of knowing because I am relatively new to the forum and I haven't seen many ot your posts. However, Dan said in his last post that he has had arguments with you in the past.

    Why did you react like that with me I can only speculate. Is it because you take the issue of racism so much at heart, or is it because of some psychological reason ( that you are some sort of narcissist who wants to exploit his position of moderator to harass people ).

    I can't know for sure but for christ sake it's tiring, so leave me alone now with these stupidities.
    Nic, you've been openly hostile and more of a troll than anyone here from the get go with your unprovoked attack on Alex. The tone of this thread was set as a negative one by you in the first interaction. Frankly, you've been rude and uncivil. I imagine you didn't mean to, and felt attacked first and so got defensive, so I'm perfectly willing to let you start over. But you should really re-read the thread and realize how you've been acting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Nic, you've been openly hostile and more of a troll than anyone here from the get go with your unprovoked attack on Alex. The tone of this thread was set as a negative one by you in the first interaction. Frankly, you've been rude and uncivil. I imagine you didn't mean to, and felt attacked first and so got defensive, so I'm perfectly willing to let you start over. But you should really re-read the thread and realize how you've been acting.
    Hey, now. Leave the moderating to the moderators.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Now I'll tell you frankly, I find shocking the fact that you have become accustomed to something like slavery to the point that you don't find it shocking anymore. And I am sure I am not the only one to think so..
    I am shocked that you are shocked that other people are not shocked by slavery, since it is (unfortunately) going on in a lot of places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billvon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Now I'll tell you frankly, I find shocking the fact that you have become accustomed to something like slavery to the point that you don't find it shocking anymore. And I am sure I am not the only one to think so..
    I am shocked that you are shocked that other people are not shocked by slavery, since it is (unfortunately) going on in a lot of places.
    And I am shocked that you are shocked that he is shocked that other people are not shocked by slavery, since it is (unfortunately) going on in a lot of places.
    It is shocking, I say, totally shocking!
    Last edited by dan hunter; September 15th, 2014 at 04:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Nic, you've been openly hostile and more of a troll than anyone here from the get go with your unprovoked attack on Alex. The tone of this thread was set as a negative one by you in the first interaction. Frankly, you've been rude and uncivil. I imagine you didn't mean to, and felt attacked first and so got defensive, so I'm perfectly willing to let you start over. But you should really re-read the thread and realize how you've been acting.
    Hey, now. Leave the moderating to the moderators.
    Sure, fair enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Geez better late than never.

    What you have done since your first intervention in this thread is not moderating, it is harassing ..
    You're being a little precious here, IMO. He wasn't moderating. He was participating.

    Slavery ? The highest form of slave is he / she who doesn't know it.
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  53. #52  
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    As a Feynman follower (he makes science really fun), I am ever so slightly offended at the OP, yet find the thread slavery in all forms are grim. I have dated an Anglo lady a few years ago who was officially sent to deal with the trade in Saipan in the mid 1990s, and Clinton ended up pulling the territorial special arrangements with the US. Most were factory slaves. She could only stand several month's worth as the perps are really sticky and very devious to make accusers and outside officials pay. The local ruling group were in cahoots. And a long time friend, author Peter Houston, dated for a while a daughter of a family (Chinese, living in New York) who were indicted for trafficking Chinese nationals for use of in the restaurant business.

    Both of these areas were under US jurisdiction.

    As far as the original issue of indentured servants go, I have never researched it on a case level. Certainly yes in people, but not certain by documentation. Had a client ask me to investigate a certain Mr. Frederick Schloetz, former Hessian. The end of the indentured servants came about the time of 1783, but it was a big finish. US nationals would greatly encourage POW Hessians awaiting the treaty ending the war (2 years) to bolt, even following them in tandem at the finishing marches to NYC and sail trip back home. Some books mention of rank and file complaints of turncoats to the Americans on that march. They would have a few years, not 7. Schloetz and two other Hessians had some sort of relationship between a German American veteran named Conrad Roller who apparently was a wheeler dealer in Quaker lands (tax sale, as Virginia took no nonsense approach to the pacifist conviction to not support any war).

    All three Hessians married Roller's sisters. Were they to escape being indentured under some sort of legal method like marriage? I never discovered in official court records. It was an emotional issue at the time. What was clear, Hessians were hot marriage property, as there was an imbalance of young, healthy American men in 1783. My guess is it was quite possibly an informal contract, and all remained in the same county for a long time afterwards, though the other two Hessians pulled up stakes from across the road towards the mountains. Fealty and tenant serfdom is still common in some rural parts of the US, though not anywhere like it was circa 1900, especially to Blacks in Jim Crow areas. Anyway, I read a number of books on the subject for that project and got an idea of what it was like.

    First of all, in 17th & 18th centuries it was common for those indentured to marry either the contract holder (almost always male) or son/daughter there of. That breaks up the ranks. The same happened in a very limited scale with Black slaves, many became Melungeon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Gary Powers of U2 fame was one) and those owners who felt guilty/etc to marry their slave. Then the law was reversed in places like Maryland, marrying a slave made you a slave. So indentured servant owners encouraged their white female charges to marry blacks without telling them the consequences. Thus they enlarged their slave holdings with vastly reduced rates!!!!! How clever. After a while the legislators figured out this consequence and reversed the law, fining the owners I think.

    Also of note, while there were many issues of violence against indentured servants, at least the local population were largely in favor of them. Most were formerly such themselves once (in the areas where indentured servants were common) and a network existed. Black slaves most certainly did not have this network. They were strangers in a strange land. And after 7 or 4 years they were still slaves. Also, indentured servants tended to be younger, iirc, and as another poster mentioned, kidnapping boys was common across Europe.

    It was illegal to take a non English ship to America, certainly directly from Europe. Even as late as the 1900's the trade was good, Titanic being mostly for the steerage traffic. But then it was fabulous, and faked contracts were also common.

    Finally, there was the issue of the white and not completely white slave trade. The former lasted until the late 1920's to Latin America, stamped out by Jewish groups who were against their own kind who controlled it. So I read. Before about 1910, it was common for dubious contracts to be made to the US by businessmen of any extraction for a kept woman. A federal act put a stop to that one.

    About the mulato mix, they looked white and were bred for the sex concubine trade of plantation owners. Some were 1/16th or 1/32 white, looking like sheets. The guys were set free as worthless, but the girls kept and auctioned off at very high price in deep south places such as New Orleans. Several interesting books on that one, but only saw one in the library once. Some escaped to California during the gold rush and quickly found eager husbands. One who did that legally, successfully impersonated a german immigrant who had died and won a case in Louisiana.
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    i heard whites died off faster because they cant stand the sun as much as blacks-i know i fuckin hate the sun longer than 15 minutes!


    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    According to Indentured servant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    About half of the white immigrants to the American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were indentured...
    That's right, but there is a distinction between the concept of indentured servant and slave. Some say they were in fact treated as slaves and were not treated better than blacks. In some instances they were even treated worse than blacks because they cost less than blacks. Blacks cost more because it was harder to get them, they had to be brought from Africa etc...

    You can check the video I posted. There are also a lot of links on the internet talking about that.
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  55. #54  
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    what a snooty guy --what did he say wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Are you a historian?
    No, just an educated layman. Now that I think about it, I don't think I know any professional historians.
    "educated layman" is nice but not enough to discuss this, unless you are willing to document yourself on the subject, in which case it will take you much more than one hour.

    Sorry I don't talk to people who are full of themselves and don't want to learn.


    Any historian here would care give a really educated comment?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Reported for being insulting.

    that guy is the worst and this forum has the weirdest snooty nuts who will bitch at nothing-their favorite word in "troll"--the internet was built by trolls
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHolmes View Post
    i heard whites died off faster because they cant stand the sun as much as blacks-i know i fuckin hate the sun longer than 15 minutes!


    Quote Originally Posted by Nic321 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    According to Indentured servant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    About half of the white immigrants to the American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were indentured...
    That's right, but there is a distinction between the concept of indentured servant and slave. Some say they were in fact treated as slaves and were not treated better than blacks. In some instances they were even treated worse than blacks because they cost less than blacks. Blacks cost more because it was harder to get them, they had to be brought from Africa etc...

    You can check the video I posted. There are also a lot of links on the internet talking about that.
    you heard wrong.
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  58. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHolmes View Post
    that guy is the worst and this forum has the weirdest snooty nuts who will bitch at nothing
    Considering that you've decided to quote and comment on a a post from 3 years ago...
    Stop it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Abraham Lincoln is credited with ending slavery. In reality, he was hardly a 'liberationist'. Also, it made economic sense to liberate a slave. The slaves had to be looked after. In freedom was a trap. The slave had to look after himself and his family. So, he would work for a meagre sum.
    The industrial revolution boosted cheap labour requirements which slavery could not afford.
    Those are my thoughts.....
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