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Thread: The East-West Schism of 1053

  1. #1 The East-West Schism of 1053 
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    The East–West Schism is the medieval division of Chalcedonian Christianity into Eastern (Greek) and Western (Latin) branches, which later became commonly known as the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, respectively.

    In 1053, the first step was taken in the process which led to formal schism. Patriarch of Constantinople Michael Cerularius ordered the closure of all Latin churches in Constantinople.

    What is also interesting about that historical fact that some churches of Southern Italy originally behold to Greek-Orthodox traditions (been in sphere of Bizantium Empire) but later possibly converted to Roman Catholicism or it would be interested to know what happened to them. One of the reasons of the Great Schism was an attempt of Vatican to establish influence over Southern Italian churches.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzant...re_1025-en.svg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...er_borders.png

    The Eastern Orthodox insist that the primacy is largely one of honor, the Pope being "first among equals" primus inter pares. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, insists on the doctrine of Supremacy. It is widely understood that, if there is to be reconciliation, both sides will have to compromise on this doctrine. Although some commentators have proposed ways in which such compromise can be achieved, there is no official indication that such compromise is being contemplated.


    Last edited by Stanley514; August 22nd, 2014 at 06:53 PM.
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  3. #2  
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    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?


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    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?
    The history. Or anything you want. It is also interesting how different people view different Christian denominations and think about them? Is there some people who believe that unification of all Christians in one church is desirable or contra?
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    I doubt it. I think most non religious people prefer decentralized churches. And most religious people wouldn't want their church absorbed or their doctrines diluted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?
    The history. Or anything you want. It is also interesting how different people view different Christian denominations and think about them? Is there some people who believe that unification of all Christians in one church is desirable or contra?
    I would guess the Roman Catholic Church would like unification of all Christianity under the pope.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?
    The history. Or anything you want. It is also interesting how different people view different Christian denominations and think about them? Is there some people who believe that unification of all Christians in one church is desirable or contra?
    I would guess the Roman Catholic Church would like unification of all Christianity under the pope.
    I think most Catholics would realize that the doctrines of the Catholic Church would be seriously diluted if this were to come about.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?
    The history. Or anything you want. It is also interesting how different people view different Christian denominations and think about them? Is there some people who believe that unification of all Christians in one church is desirable or contra?
    I would guess the Roman Catholic Church would like unification of all Christianity under the pope.
    I think most Catholics would realize that the doctrines of the Catholic Church would be seriously diluted if this were to come about.
    I suspect that the pope would have all Christians follow Catholic church doctrines. The only dilution I could see is allowing priests to marry (allowed for Uniates).
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Fairly interesting, yeah. Any point in particular you want to discuss? The right of the Pope to invoke papal infallibility? The history?
    The history. Or anything you want. It is also interesting how different people view different Christian denominations and think about them? Is there some people who believe that unification of all Christians in one church is desirable or contra?
    I would guess the Roman Catholic Church would like unification of all Christianity under the pope.
    I think most Catholics would realize that the doctrines of the Catholic Church would be seriously diluted if this were to come about.
    I suspect that the pope would have all Christians follow Catholic church doctrines. The only dilution I could see is allowing priests to marry (allowed for Uniates).
    If all Christian churches united under Catholicism, the priesthood would be filled with all kinds of new ideas. There would become a lot more 'branches' of Catholicism then there are now which would end up diluting the teachings. It happens whenever two churches merge, on a local or global scale.

    The Pope can't make all Catholics do anything. Just look at the Orthodoxy, officially a branch of Catholicism.
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    The Pope can't make all Catholics do anything. Just look at the Orthodoxy, officially a branch of Catholicism.
    What do mean by "a branch of Catholicism"? The orthodox churches don't accept the papacy as having any doctrinaire control - not since 1053, at least.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post

    What is also interesting about that historical fact that some churches of Southern Italy originally behold to Greek-Orthodox traditions (been in sphere of Bizantium Empire) but later possibly converted to Roman Catholicism or it would be interested to know what happened to them. One of the reasons of the Great Schism was an attempt of Vatican to establish influence over Southern Italian churches.
    The Western Pope started endorsing kings. Pepin the Short of France made the political move of declaring himself to be the pope's protector.

    Then in 800 AD the Pope Leo III officially crowned Pepin's son Charlemagne as Emperor of Europe, starting a tradition where all emperors of Europe had to be crowned by the Pope. Charlemagne then conquered most of Italy and Germany and declared himself king and required all of his subjects to convert to his religion. He massacred lots of people when they refused.

    Pope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So basically, acknowledging the Pope amounted to submitting to the rule of the current emperor of Europe. The decision to split was probably less because of religious idealism, and more because of a desire to retain their political autonomy.

    A similar split later happened between the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church, also because of questions of political autonomy (and because the king wanted to divorce his wife, in hopes of potentially getting an heir from another wife, so his reign would not be ruined by lack of an heir. )

    The Eastern Orthodox insist that the primacy is largely one of honor, the Pope being "first among equals" primus inter pares. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, insists on the doctrine of Supremacy. It is widely understood that, if there is to be reconciliation, both sides will have to compromise on this doctrine. Although some commentators have proposed ways in which such compromise can be achieved, there is no official indication that such compromise is being contemplated.
    After such a long tradition of the Pope crowning kings, I imagine he wouldn't want to go back to being equal with everyone else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    The Pope can't make all Catholics do anything. Just look at the Orthodoxy, officially a branch of Catholicism.
    What do mean by "a branch of Catholicism"? The orthodox churches don't accept the papacy as having any doctrinaire control - not since 1053, at least.
    And yet they're still Catholics. They just don't follow the Roman Rite. People specify Roman Catholic because of other branches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    The Pope can't make all Catholics do anything. Just look at the Orthodoxy, officially a branch of Catholicism.
    What do mean by "a branch of Catholicism"? The orthodox churches don't accept the papacy as having any doctrinaire control - not since 1053, at least.
    And yet they're still Catholics. They just don't follow the Roman Rite. People specify Roman Catholic because of other branches.
    Now you are just talking about labels. They may call themselves Catholic (I don't know one way or the other), but for the Roman Catholic church they are not Catholic, since they don't accept the pope as the head of their church.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SowZ37 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    The Pope can't make all Catholics do anything. Just look at the Orthodoxy, officially a branch of Catholicism.
    What do mean by "a branch of Catholicism"? The orthodox churches don't accept the papacy as having any doctrinaire control - not since 1053, at least.
    And yet they're still Catholics. They just don't follow the Roman Rite. People specify Roman Catholic because of other branches.
    Now you are just talking about labels. They may call themselves Catholic (I don't know one way or the other), but for the Roman Catholic church they are not Catholic, since they don't accept the pope as the head of their church.
    Not true. The Catholic Church accepts them as brothers in error, (a term straight from the Bible.) Orthodox Catholics are still within the fold, just following a less accurate version of Catholicism. Also, there's no reason the Roman Rite gets monopoly on who is and isn't Catholic. The Roman and Orthodox branches both split from the same organization, one isn't more valid than another. But it doesn't matter, because even Roman Catholics still call them Catholics.
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