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Thread: Historically, which is the best country for science?

  1. #1 Historically, which is the best country for science? 
    ox
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    I am used to hearing that the rainsoaked and windswept island of Great Britain has been the best place for scientific discovery. The great indoors has certainly produced some greats, but I would be interested to hear a case for other countries in terms of the number and quality of great scientists.
    I am aware that great science has been done in England in particular, and sometimes by people who weren't born there.
    I can think of :
    Isaac Newton, and his work on gravity, light, calculus.
    Charles Darwin, and his explanation for evolution.
    Michael Faraday, and his work on electricity and magnetism.
    James Maxwell, and the unification of electricity and magnetism.
    Paul Dirac, and the unification of quantum mechanics and special relativity.
    Stephen Hawking, and his work on black holes.
    Ernest Rutherford, and the discovery of the proton.
    J.J. Thompson, and the discovery of the electron.
    James Chadwick, and the discovery of the neutron.
    Henry Cavendish, and the discovery of hydrogen.
    Joseph Priestley, and the discovery of oxygen.
    James Watt, and the harnessing of steam power.
    Edward Jenner, and the discovery of vaccination.

    US, Russia, France, Italy and Germany must also be contenders for the best place to do science.


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    Historically, the US is probably too young to be in the running on an unlimited time scale. Depends upon how far back you want to go. During certain historic periods, there were different places of scientific advancement. The Middle East had it's golden years and Europe had its Dark Ages. Just depends, I guess.


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    That is an interesting question and I guess the answer would be extremely subjective, certainly as Flick has suggested the US is perhaps a tad to young here, though this is certainly not to say it hasn't had it's fair claim of scientific acheivements during it's existence. Again here I would say that Germany should be out of the running given it's relative youth.

    The UK had it's greatest times during the great days of empire, the biggest the world has ever seen, in the 18 & 19th century, and it gave the world the industrial revolution and foverever changed human existence, but alas again by comparison of some of the real contenders here the UK is also still a mere child.

    Italy might have been a contender here for giving the world the renaissance and dragging us out of the dark ages, but again here it would only be my third choice.
    The next contender and the country which I would place second, remember here these are just my opinions as everyone will have their own based on their own criteria, would be China, one of the most inventive nations on Earth and for centuries vastly more advanced than most countries, they gave the world such inventions as paper and gun powder.

    But even China would pale by comparison of the country I would suggest is number one country historically for science, and that country is ancient Greece. Over two and half millenia ago the Greeks had science and technology that would take European scientists till well into the 18th century to even come close too, acheivements based on Greek science can be found throughout history and seen in many subsequent civilisations. Even to this very day the exploits of ancient Greeks and their names are still known and spoken of.

    Perhaps we can even suggest that no civilisation before or since has ever had quite such an impact on science and it's probably unlikely that another ever will.
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    Don't forget Joseph Black the Scottish chemist known for his discovery of carbon dioxide.
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    It's a toughy. Wouldn't go by country so much as a cultural grouping. Toss up between the UK and the Germans (Germans in the broader sense).

    Newton, Darwin, Hawking, Faraday and a hundred more vs Heisenberg, Einstein, Mendel, Von Braun and a hundred more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    I am used to hearing that the rainsoaked and windswept island of Great Britain has been the best place for scientific discovery. The great indoors has certainly produced some greats, but I would be interested to hear a case for other countries in terms of the number and quality of great scientists.
    Certainly history suggests that there is a relationship between scientific progress and those countries that exhibited a strong dependancy on trade. For example the lands the Ionians colonized (eg. Greece) when compared to more fertile productive lands necessitated that trade became a way of life for the Greek civilisation. The Ionians dependence on trade appears to have also manifested itself in a 'non-hostile tolerant' stance towards other cultures. This stance allowed Greece to become a repository of scientific discoveries from around the 'then-known' world and appears to have directly attributed to their intellectual achievements.

    Today, there still may be isolated examples where some cultures adopt a isolationist posture (such as the North Koreans) and as a result, I would suspect the scientific achievements suffer. Much of scientific progress is a collaborative effort so those countries that respect tolerance and reduce any barriers to co-operation probably still have an edge (sweeping generalisation of course). :-))
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That is an interesting question and I guess the answer would be extremely subjective, certainly as Flick has suggested the US is perhaps a tad to young here, though this is certainly not to say it hasn't had it's fair claim of scientific acheivements during it's existence. Again here I would say that Germany should be out of the running given it's relative youth.

    The UK had it's greatest times during the great days of empire, the biggest the world has ever seen, in the 18 & 19th century, and it gave the world the industrial revolution and foverever changed human existence, but alas again by comparison of some of the real contenders here the UK is also still a mere child.

    Italy might have been a contender here for giving the world the renaissance and dragging us out of the dark ages, but again here it would only be my third choice.
    The next contender and the country which I would place second, remember here these are just my opinions as everyone will have their own based on their own criteria, would be China, one of the most inventive nations on Earth and for centuries vastly more advanced than most countries, they gave the world such inventions as paper and gun powder.

    But even China would pale by comparison of the country I would suggest is number one country historically for science, and that country is ancient Greece. Over two and half millenia ago the Greeks had science and technology that would take European scientists till well into the 18th century to even come close too, acheivements based on Greek science can be found throughout history and seen in many subsequent civilisations. Even to this very day the exploits of ancient Greeks and their names are still known and spoken of.

    Perhaps we can even suggest that no civilisation before or since has ever had quite such an impact on science and it's probably unlikely that another ever will.
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
    Africa isn't a country. If the science is hidden or lost, how do you know it exists? The Olmecs invented the Mesoamerican calendar. Anything else? What science do you think the Dogons did?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
    Africa isn't a country. If the science is hidden or lost, how do you know it exists? The Olmecs invented the Mesoamerican calendar. Anything else? What science do you think the Dogons did?
    Yes I know it's a continent. There are new revelations surfacing in terms of the use of the internet, so the hidden stuff is been brought to light, and the lost stuff is been found.

    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
    Africa isn't a country. If the science is hidden or lost, how do you know it exists? The Olmecs invented the Mesoamerican calendar. Anything else? What science do you think the Dogons did?
    Yes I know it's a continent. There are new revelations surfacing in terms of the use of the internet, so the hidden stuff is been brought to light, and the lost stuff is been found.
    Are you going to tell us what it is?
    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
    I don't know. I'm always willing to learn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
    That isn't what was said. Clearly, Africa has contributed to science.
    Mpemba effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Category:African scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now, what about this "hidden" and "lost" science you mentioned ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
    That isn't what was said. Clearly, Africa has contributed to science.
    Mpemba effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Category:African scientists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now, what about this "hidden" and "lost" science you mentioned ...
    Did you know that the Dogons studied cosmology? If yes, where did you get the info? Did you know that Africa contributed to the knowledge of the anti-baby pill? Please tell me what you know that Africa has contributed to the world in science.
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    Depends upon the time In history I'd think. Many discoveries were made at different times In many countries as more knowledge was gained from the past generations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Depends upon the time In history I'd think. Many discoveries were made at different times In many countries as more knowledge was gained from the past generations.
    Yes I agree that the time frame is important. Africa is almost absent from the world today and yet it is a continent. I study ancient African history, I have been to many African countries, they have solid scientific discoveries, yet you cannot read anywhere that it is recorded. Just to find out the population of native Africans is not so easy. I think all discoveries have a past, all scientific discoveries that we claim to be new are not really new but comes from the past. Africa is not the dominant culture at the moment, so ever new discovery is discovered in the name of the most dominant culture.
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    Yes I agree that the time frame is important. Africa is almost absent from the world today and yet it is a continent. I study ancient African history, I have been to many African countries, they have solid scientific discoveries, yet you cannot read anywhere that it is recorded. Just to find out the population of native Africans is not so easy. I think all discoveries have a past, all scientific discoveries that we claim to be new are not really new but comes from the past. Africa is not the dominant culture at the moment, so ever new discovery is discovered in the name of the most dominant culture.
    Look at Egypt and what their contributions were over 6000 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Did you know that the Dogons studied cosmology?
    No. But I know there are some common myths around their knowledge. I'm sure they had basic astronomical knowledge. As would any society that had good access to night skies without light pollution. But nowhere near as much as the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, for whom accurate calendars were vital to their survival.

    Did you know that Africa contributed to the knowledge of the anti-baby pill?
    I didn't. Care to expand?

    Please tell me what you know that Africa has contributed to the world in science.
    I think I have forgotten most of what I once knew. And it was mainly related to Egypt: the Library at Alexandria, Eratosthenes (the first person to calculate the circumference of the earth, and famous for his work on prime numbers), Euclid (main originator of the axiomatic method), Hero, Ctesibus, Ibn Yusuf, etc.

    We will skip lightly over the fact that most of those were Greeks working in Alexandria...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Did you know that the Dogons studied cosmology?
    No. But I know there are some common myths around their knowledge. I'm sure they had basic astronomical knowledge. As would any society that had good access to night skies without light pollution. But nowhere near as much as the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, for whom accurate calendars were vital to their survival.

    Did you know that Africa contributed to the knowledge of the anti-baby pill?
    I didn't. Care to expand?

    Please tell me what you know that Africa has contributed to the world in science.
    I think I have forgotten most of what I once knew. And it was mainly related to Egypt: the Library at Alexandria, Eratosthenes (the first person to calculate the circumference of the earth, and famous for his work on prime numbers), Euclid (main originator of the axiomatic method), Hero, Ctesibus, Ibn Yusuf, etc.

    We will skip lightly over the fact that most of those were Greeks working in Alexandria...
    Do you know that in just one year I have lost a lot of videos and reports about Africa that I save for my library pertaining to information from Africa about scientific achievements? I am sure you do not know this because it is not your favorite topic. When I go back to review the topics I get a massage that the video is no longer supported by the poster. You would think that the world would know that every culture has contributed to the scientific development of the planet but we know little or nothing.

    Have you followed the Greeks and where they got the knowledge from? We hear a lot from the Greeks and their contribution to democracy, but the Greeks were taught by the Moors. Spain got almost all of its knowledge from the moors, we are just beginning to understand some of it. The stones that the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids have more meaning to the pyramids that previously believed. Some of this knowledge were lost or hidden and is finally coming to light. It would be nice to just put my fingers on some information and serve it to you, but sadly its not so easy to find, this is where traveling helps to rectify some of the myths and beliefs. Speaking to some of the dogons have at times more to offer in terms of explaining the beginning of the universe than modern science. I know I have said something that can dig up a can of worms, but it is true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Did you know that the Dogons studied cosmology?
    <br>
    <br>
    No. But I know there are some common myths around their knowledge. I'm sure they had basic astronomical knowledge. As would any society that had good access to night skies without light pollution. But nowhere near as much as the Egyptians and the Mesopotamians, for whom accurate calendars were vital to their survival.<br>
    <br>
    Did you know that Africa contributed to the knowledge of the anti-baby pill?
    <br>
    <br>
    I didn't. Care to expand?<br>
    <br>
    Please tell me what you know that Africa has contributed to the world in science.
    <br>
    <br>
    I think I have forgotten most of what I once knew. And it was mainly related to Egypt: the Library at Alexandria, Eratosthenes (the first person to calculate the circumference of the earth, and famous for his work on prime numbers), Euclid (main originator of the axiomatic method), Hero, Ctesibus, Ibn Yusuf, etc.<br>
    <br>
    We will skip lightly over the fact that most of those were Greeks working in Alexandria... <img src="http://www.thescienceforum.com/images/smilies/smile.png" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg">
    <br><br>Do you know that in just one year I have lost a lot of videos and reports about Africa that I save for my library pertaining to information from&nbsp;Africa about scientific achievements? I am sure you do not know this because it is not your favorite topic. When I go back to review the topics I get a massage that the video is no longer supported by the poster. You would think that the world would know that every culture has contributed to the scientific development of the planet but we know little or nothing.<br><br>Have you followed the Greeks and where they got the knowledge from? We hear a lot from the Greeks and their contribution to democracy, but the Greeks were taught by the Moors. Spain got almost all of its knowledge from the moors, we are just beginning to understand some of it. The stones that the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids have more meaning to the pyramids that previously believed. Some of this knowledge were lost or hidden and is finally coming to light. It would be nice to just put my fingers on some information and serve it to you, but sadly its not so easy to find, this is where traveling helps to rectify some of the myths and beliefs. Speaking to some of the dogons have at times more to offer in terms of explaining the beginning of the universe than modern science. I know I have said something that can dig up a can of worms, but it is true.

    Sorry for double print, do not have a clue what went wrong.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Do you know that in just one year I have lost a lot of videos and reports about Africa that I save for my library pertaining to information from Africa about scientific achievements?
    What is your point? Are you claiming that you have lost things because of a conspiracy to hide information about Africa? Or just bemoaning the inevitable transience of electronic information?

    We hear a lot from the Greeks and their contribution to democracy, but the Greeks were taught by the Moors. Spain got almost all of its knowledge from the moors, we are just beginning to understand some of it.
    The moors were (mainly) Arabs, not Africans. We are not "just beginning to understand it"; it has been a mainstream part of history of science for a long time.

    Some of this knowledge were lost or hidden and is finally coming to light.
    So you say. Yet you seem unwilling or unable to provide examples.

    Speaking to some of the dogons have at times more to offer in terms of explaining the beginning of the universe than modern science.
    Can you provide some examples of how your conversations with the Dogons have explained the beginning of the universe?

    I know I have said something that can dig up a can of worms, but it is true.
    You haven't really said anything. Just some vague claims of "hidden knowledge". As you refuse to provide any details, it is hard to know if it is true or not.

    So what was the African connection with the contraceptive pill?
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    How about Poland:
    Ajdukiewicz
    Kazimierz 1890
    1963 Logician, philosopher - the creator of, so called, fundamental conventionalism and semantic language theory
    Arctowski
    Henryk 1871
    1958 Globetrotter, geophysicist, geographer - expert in polar regions
    Banach
    Stefan 1892
    1945 Mathematician - he founded modern functional analysis and made major contributions to the theory of topological vector spaces; he contributed to measure theory, integration, and orthogonal series; co-author of Banach's algebra, Banach's space
    Banachiewicz
    Tadeusz 1882
    1954 Astronomer, geodesist, mathematician - creator of cracovian theory, he developed and applied chronokinematographic method for observation of Sun eclipse
    Bryla
    Stefan 1886
    1943 Construction engineer, welding pioneer - the designer of, among others, the first in Europe welded road bridge on the Sludwia River (1927) and high rise building Prudential in Warszawa (1932)
    Cebertowicz
    Romuald Adam 1897
    1981 Hydrotechnician - the creator of electro-injection method of soil solidification
    Cieszkowski
    August 1814
    1894 Philosopher, economist - the creator of, so called, philosophy of action
    Czekanowska-Kuklinska
    Anna,
    daughter of Jan 1929
    Musicologist, ethnographer - she applied statistical-mathematical methods for analysis of folk music
    Czekanowski
    Aleksander 1833
    1876 Geologist, geographer - explorer of north-eastern regions of Asia
    Czekanowski
    Jan 1882
    1965 Anthropologist, ethnologist - he applied mathematical statistics in anthropological research, ethnographic research in Central Africa
    Czerski
    Jan 1845
    1892 Geologist, geographer - explorer of Siberia, especially Lake Baikal; creator of geological map of Lake Baikal
    Czochralski
    Jan 1885
    1953 Metalurgist, metal researcher - creator of the pulling crystal method, he studied the velocity of metal crystalization
    Danysz
    Jan Kazimierz 1884
    1914 Physicist - assistant of M.Curie-Sklodowska, creator of the first spectrometer beta
    Danysz
    Marian 1909
    Physicist - co-discoverer of hypernuclei and hypernuclear isomery
    Dega
    Wiktor 1896
    1995 Orthopeadic surgeon - a pioneer of medical rehabilitation for motion organ
    Dietl
    Jozef 1804
    1878 Physician - pioneer of balneology
    Dobrowolski
    Antoni Boleslaw 1872
    1954 Geophysist, polar regions explorer, educationist - the organiser of Polish meteorology survey, ice expert
    Domeyko
    Ignacy 1802
    1889 Mineralogist, geologist, member of a secret student society at Vilno University - he created scientific foundations for exploitation of natural resources in Chile and established a network of meteorological stations
    Doroszewski
    Witold Jan 1899
    1976 Linguist - specialist in Polish philology, word-formation, dialectology and semantics, editor of Polish Language Dictionary (11 volumes)
    Drzewiecki
    Stefan 1844
    1938 Scientist and inventor, mainly in aviation and ship building - he developed theory of gliding flight, developed a method for manufacture of ship and plane propellers (1892), presented a general theory for screw-propeller thurst (1920)
    Dybowski
    Benedykt 1833
    1930 Zoologist - explorer of East Siberia (1865-79), he discovered many species of endemic fauna in Lake Baikal, co-founder of limnology
    Dybowski
    Jan 1856
    1928 Globetrotter - explorer of Africa, especially Equatorial Africa
    Dylik
    Jan 1905
    1973 Geographer, geomorphologist - explore of Spitsbergen, expert in permafrost geomorphology
    Estreicher
    Alojzy Rafal 1786
    1852 Botanist, entomologist - he made the Botanical Graden in Cracow flourish
    Estreicher
    Karol Sr.,
    son of Alojzy Rafal 1827
    1908 Librarian, bibliographer, historian of literature and theater - the creator of Polish Bibliography - a register of the whole Polish literature (from XV to XIX century)
    Estreicher
    Karol Jr.
    son of Stanislaw 1906
    Historian of art, bibliographer - finished Polish Bibliography
    Estreicher
    Stanislaw
    son of Karol Sr. 1869
    1939 Historian of law, bibliographer - continuator of Polish Bibliography
    Estreicher
    Tadeusz
    son of Karol Sr. 1871
    1952 Chemist, historian of chemistry - expert in low temperatures
    Falski
    Marian 1881
    1974 Educationist - the author of the famous elementary book Nauka pisania i czytania (Learning to write and read)
    Funk
    Kazimierz 1884
    1967 Biochemist - he intorduced name vitamin, the creator of the vitamin science, he isolated the first vitamin
    Gloger
    Zygmunt 1845
    1910 Ethnographer, archeologist, historian - the author of Old-Polish Encyclopedia (4 volumes)
    Godlewski
    Aleksander 1905
    1975 Ethnographer - expert in ethnogenesis of nations of Oceania and Australia
    Godlewski
    Emil Sr. 1847
    1930 Physiologist of plants - expert in photosynthesis, respiratory and water movement in plants
    Godlewski
    Emil Jr. 1875
    1944 Embryologist, physician - expert in regeneration and physiology of conception, showed the significance of cytoplasm in hereditary processes
    Goetel
    Walery 1889
    1972 Geologist - expert in the Tatra Mountains, co-originator of Tatra, Pieniny and Babia Gora National Parks
    Gruca
    Adam 1893
    Orthopeadic surgeon - he developed new surgery methods as well as orthopeadic tools and apparatus
    Grzybowski
    Jozef 1869
    1922 Geologist, paleaonthologist - the first on the world who applied micropaleaonthological methods in investigation of stratigraphy of oil-bearing series
    Gzowski
    Kazimierz 1813
    1898 Construction engineer - he organized a company that build Grand Trunk Railway from Toronto to Sarnia 1853-57, and an international bridge across the Niagara River at Fort Erie in 1873; founder of Canadian Society of Civil Engineers in 1887
    Hermaszewski
    Miroslaw 1941
    Pilot - the first Polish astronaut (1978)
    Heweliusz
    Jan 1611
    1687 Astronomer - the creator of Astronomical Observatory in Gdansk (1640), he constructed the biggest telescope in XVII century (lenght 50 m), elaborated maps of the Moon, discovered changes in magnetic declination
    Hirszfeld
    Ludwik 1884
    1954 Doctor of serology, immunologist - co-author of hematology, started seroanthropology, commenced research into pathology of pregnancy (in Poland), discovered bacillus of paratyphoid fever C
    Hirszfeld
    Ludwik Maurycy 1816
    1876 Physician, anatomist - author of well-known academic book on anatomy of nervous system (in French)
    Huber
    Maksymilian Tytus 1872
    1950 Mechanical engineer - developed hypothesis of endurance materials fundamental to strength of materials, so called Huber hypothesis
    Infeld
    Leopold 1898
    1968 Theoretical physisist - co-worker with Albert Einstein, specialist in the field of theory of relativity
    Ingarden
    Roman 1852
    1927 Hydrotechnician - he designed and built water services in Cracow, developed a general plan of the flood-control of the Vistula River
    Ingarden
    Roman 1893
    1970 Philosopher, aesthetician - one of the main representatives of Polish phenomenology, created own theory of literature and fundamentals of descriptive aesthetics
    Jablonski
    Aleksander 1898
    1980 Physisist - one of the pioneers of molecular photophysics, created the concept of the "luminescent centre" and own theories of quantum-mechanical pressure broadening and concentrational quenching and depolarization of photoluminescence
    Jahn
    Alfred 1915
    1999 Geographer, globetrotter - explorer of Greenland, Spitsbergen, Alasca, Siberia and northern Canada, expert in permafrost
    Kaliski
    Sylwester 1925
    1978 Engineer, specialist in the field of applied physics - he developed theory of continuous amplification of ultra and hiper-sounds in semiconductive crystals, obtained plasma temperature of tens of millions of degrees Kelvin using laser impulse
    Kaminski
    Marek 1964
    Explorer - the first man who reached the both Poles in one year (1995) on foot and unsupported
    Klimaszewski
    Mieczyslaw 1908
    1995 Geographer, geomorphologist - he elaborated methods of geomorphological and hydrographical mapping, expert in geomorphology of the Tatra Moutains
    Kochanski
    Adam Adamandy 1631
    1700 ê³êóroyal librarian and mathematicians to Jan III Sobieski, along with John Hevelius, astronomer of Gdansk, he constructed a unique, wall, vertical, 3 clock faces sundial at Wilanow Palace in 1681-82, ê³êóhe published an approximation method to finding the length of a circumference of a circle (1685)
    Kolberg
    Oskar 1814
    1890 Folklorist, ethnographer, musician, composer - author of a monumental work: Lud. Jego zwyczaje, sposob zycia, mowa, podania, przyslowia, obrzedy, gusla, zabawy, piesni, muzyka i tance (Nation. Its customs, way of life, spoken language, traditions, proverbs, ceremonies, witchcraft, rejoicings, songs, music and dance), that gave the richest description of the Polish folk culture
    Kolberg-Kolobrzeg
    (Colberg)
    Juliusz 1776
    1831 Geodesist, cartographer - the author of Atlas of Polish Kingdom
    Konorski
    Jerzy 1903
    1973 neurophysiologist - he explained the mechanism of acquired reflexes, known as secondary conditioned reflexes
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    Kopernik
    (Copernicus)
    Mikolaj 1473
    1543 Astronomer, mathematician, economist, physician - in the work De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres) he presented heliocentric theory of the world, which he created, he was the first to formulate a law about replacement of better money by the worse
    Kordylewski
    Kazimierz 1903
    1981 Astronomer, mathematician - he discovered Cloud Moons in the Earth-Moon system
    Kostanecki
    Stanislaw 1860
    1910 Organic chemist - pioneer of vegetable dye chemistry, he developed the theory of dyes (1896) and started the investigations of natural vegetable dyes
    Kostrzewski
    Jozef 1885
    1969 Archeologist, museologist - investigator of the Pre-Slavs, the creator of neoautochtonic school, propagating: forefathers of the Slavs were tribes of Lusatian culture, then peoples within the Oder and Vistula drainage basins were autochtons, over 700 papers
    Kotarbinski
    Tadeusz 1886
    1981 Philosopher, logician, praxiologist - pioneer and co-creator of Polish praxiology, the creator of philosophical concept of regime and, so called, independent ethics
    Krwawicz
    Tadeusz 1910
    Ophthalmologist - inventor of tool for the removal of cataract, pioneer of eye cryiotherapy in Poland
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    Bogumil 1905
    1977 Geographer - the creator of mechanical graniphormametry and theory of glacitectonics
    Kuratowski
    Kazimierz 1896
    1980 Matematician, regarded as a father of topology - specializing in topology, set theory and logic, also many other branches of mathematics like analysis, geometry and differential equations
    Lesniewski
    Stanislaw 1886
    1939 Logician, philosopher, matematician, co-founder of Warsaw School of Logic, he created system of basis for logic and mathematics, invented Reverse Polish Notation (RPN)
    Lowmianski
    Henryk 1898
    1984 Historian - investigator of ancient history of Poland, Slavs and Lithuania, author of The Beginnings of Poland
    Lukasiewicz
    Ignacy 1822
    1882 Pharmacist - founder of Polish oil industry, separated kerosene from mineral oil, invented kerosene lamp
    Lukasiewicz
    Jan 1878
    1956 Logician, philosopher - co-founder of Warsaw School of Logic, one of the outstanding 20th century logicians, defined several axioms in logic theory, created multi-value logic systems, introduced Reverse Polish Notation (RPN)
    Majcherczyk
    Jerzy 1952
    Kayaker, explorer - co-founder of famous expedition to the deepest canyon on the World: Colca Canyon, Peru (1981)
    Malinowski
    Bronislaw 1884
    1942 Ethnologist, sociologist, anthropologist, theoretician of culture - head of Polish Institute in New York, creator of functionality in culture research, field investigations in New Guinea brought him world fame (Sexual life of natives)
    Malinowski
    Ernest 1815
    1899 Railroad and transportation engineer - designed and managed the construction of the railroad line Callao-Oroya in Peru, reaching elevation 4769 m a.s.l.
    Marchlewski
    Leon 1869
    1946 Chemist - he proved that chlorophyll and hemoglobin originate from the same common parent substance, i.e. hemopyrol
    Michalowski
    Kazimierz 1901
    1981 Archeologist, Egyptologist, historian of art - creator of Polish Archeological Station in Cairo, leader of many archeological expeditions to Africa and Asia
    Miklaszewski
    Slawomir 1874
    1949 Pedologist - he developed cartography of soils, author of Soils of Poland
    Modjeski (Modrzewski)
    Ralph (Rudolf) 1861
    1940 Engineer - "America's greatest bridge builder": Thebes Bridge, IL, 1904, Benjamin Franklin Bridge, NJ, 1926 (greatest achievement), Tacony-Palmyra Bridge, PA, 1929, Trans-Bay Bridge, CA, 1936, Blue Water Bridge, MI-ONT, 1938
    Nencki
    Marceli 1847
    1901 Medical doctor, chemist physiologist - pioneer of modern physiology, he discovered the bacteria which are capable of subsisting in the anaerobic atmosphere, he discovered the therapeutic agent, i.e. salol and also found out that the synthesis of urea in the organism takes place in the liver
    Neyman-Splawa
    Jerzy 1894
    Mathematician, statistician - the pioneer of modern statistics (together with Fisher and Pearson), his work on hypothesis testing, confidence intervals and survey sampling revolutionised statistics
    Nowak
    Edmund 1918
    Mechanical design engineer, inventor - numerous inventions in designing machinery for processing (mechanically and thermally) metals and plastics
    Olszewski
    Karol 1846
    1915 Chemist, physisist - expert in low temperatures domain, first condensed oxygen and nitrogen from air (1883, together with Z.F. Wroblewski)
    Pietowski
    Andrzej
    Explorer - he lead the five-nation expedition of National Geographic Society and pinpointed the source of the Amazon River in the Nevado Mismi (5597 m asl, Peruvian Andes) therefore this river is the longest in the world (about 6300 km)
    Pniewski
    Jerzy 1913
    Physicist - co-discoverer of hypernuclei and hypernuclear isomery
    Prazmowski
    Adam 1821
    1885 First Polish astrophysisist - pioneered astrophysical observations of the Sun, co-discovered the polarized emission from the solar corona, designed and constructed innovative astronomical instruments (among others coelostat)
    Raciborski
    Marian 1863
    1917 Botanist - one of the pioneers of nature conservation in Poland, creator of Polish phytogeographical school, pioneer in Polish paleobotany
    Religa
    Zbigniew 1938
    Cardiologist - pioneer of heart transplantation in Poland, grafted an artificial valve, created from materials taken from human corpses (first time on the World, June 1995), creator of Cardiosurgery Development Foundation
    Romer
    Eugeniusz 1871
    1954 Geographer - creator of modern Polish cartography, author of important synthesis relative to climate of Poland and respected geographical textbooks: Geographical Atlas, Ice Epoch in Tatra Mts., Climatic regions in Poland
    Sedziwoj
    Michal 1566
    1636 Alchemist, philosopher, medical doctor - pioneer of chemistry, he assumed that air contains oxygen
    Sierpinski
    Waclaw 1882
    1969 Mathematician - the father of the famous Polish School of Mathematics, his most important work is in the area of set theory (continum hypothesis), point set topology (Sierpinski's curve) and number theory (Sierpinski's numbers), the founder of Fundamenta Mathematicae and Acta Arithmetica (1920) - the world top mathematical journals of that time
    Smoluchowski
    Marian 1872
    1917 Physicist - he made important contributions in many areas of physics, especially in kinematic theory of matter; author of laws of Brown's movements independently of A.Einstein
    Sniadecki
    Jedrzej 1768
    1838 Chemist, medical doctor, philosopher, biologist - pioneer of modern chemistry, he described the Polish chemical nomenclature scientifically, he is the author of the first Polish chemical handbook (1800)
    Strzelecki
    Edmund 1797
    1873 Geologist, explorer - contributed significantly to early Australian history, he published his Physical Description of New South Wales and Van Diemes Land; due to him many places in Australia have Polish names, like the Kosciuszko Mountain (Australian Alps)
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    Alfred 1902
    1983 Mathematical logician, philosopher - he introduced the distinction between language and metalanguage ((The concept of Truth in Formalized Languages'), which allowed to avoid the paradoxes detected within the foundations of set theory (Russel's paradox), made numerous contributions to decision theory and model theory, and pioneered the application of algebra to the study of formal systems
    Ulam
    Stanislaw
    Marcin 1909
    1984 Mathematician - he solved the problem of how to initiate fusion in the hydrogen bomb; devised the "Monte-Carlo method" widely used in solving mathematical problems using statistical sampling; with J.C. Everett he proposed the Orion plan for nuclear propulsion of space vehicles
    Wolfke
    Mieczyslaw 1883
    1947 Physicist - co-dicoverer of two forms of liquid hellium; precursor of holography
    Wroblewski
    Zygmunt 1845
    1888 Physisist - expert in low temperatures domain, first condensed oxygen and nitrogen from air (1883, together with K. Olszewski)
    Zamenhof
    Ludwik 1859
    1917 Philologist - the initiator of Esperanto, the most widely spoken constructed language to date; he published 'Doktoro Esperanto. Lingvo internacia. Antauparolo kaj plena lernolibro' - Dr. Hopeful. International Language. Foreword And Complete Textbook (1887)
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    ox
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    Just to pick up on some very good replies:
    The Dogons. Where did they get their knowledge of astronomy from? I believe this was conveyed to them by traders from other parts of Africa and then quickly absorbed into their belief system.
    Ancient Egyptians. These were astronomers who revered the sun moon and stars, but interpreted them as gods which moved across the sky in celestial boats. They appeared to have a knowledge of the Sirius star system and the Belt of Orion, and this has given rise to some crackpot ideas. The Dogons, according to some anthropologists also knew of Sirius, so was this from the Egyptians? Quite probably.
    The Pyramids are supposed to be a ground map of the Belt of Orion, according to certain crackpots, who were looking at them the wrong way around and who fabricated the measurements of their position.
    Ancient Greeks. How much of their science was down to their internal and external wars?
    England. The golden era of English science did not start with the British Empire. Remember that other European countries also had empires. It started with the European Enlightenment and the Protestant Reformation. Apart from Isaac Newton there were the astronomers John Flamsteed (Uranus) and Edmond Halley (comets), as well as Robert Hooke (gravity and mechanics) and Robert Boyle (chemistry).
    Germany. The Germans suffered terribly in the 30 Years War and their genius might in part be down to this, and the need to defend their borders.
    America. As everyone knows, the English are lazy and the Germans are diligent; the Americans might speak English but they behave more like Germans. So the Americans have the best of both worlds in which to do their science. English with its shorter words, phrasal verbs and capacity for metaphor promotes greater efficiency. The influx of many European scientists also played a big part.

    I would rank Great Britain and the German speaking parts of Europe as the best places historically for science. Then America.
    As a small country which has punched above its weight I would give mention to Denmark.
    http://denmark.dk/en/meet-the-danes/...es/scientists/
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  24. #23  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Ancient Egyptians. These were astronomers who revered the sun moon and stars, but interpreted them as gods which moved across the sky in celestial boats. They appeared to have a knowledge of the Sirius star system and the Belt of Orion, and this has given rise to some crackpot ideas. The Dogons, according to some anthropologists also knew of Sirius, so was this from the Egyptians? Quite probably.
    I have only heard of this knowledge being associated with the Dogons. It is pretty clear that they got the information about Sirius from the ethnologist who interviewed them.

    The Egyptians used their astronomical knowledge to create very accurate calendars. This was important to them because they had to predict the Nile's floods. These occurred very regularly and they had to be prepared because (a) the floods could be very destructive and (b) they brought hugely fertile soil.

    Ancient Greeks. How much of their science was down to their internal and external wars?
    As with most cultures, the development of science (and art) relies on there being enough excess production to allow some people to do non-productive work. I don't know whether this was because of their wars or their wars were a consequence of the success of their society.

    England. The golden era of English science did not start with the British Empire. Remember that other European countries also had empires. It started with the European Enlightenment and the Protestant Reformation. Apart from Isaac Newton there were the astronomers John Flamsteed (Uranus) and Edmond Halley (comets), as well as Robert Hooke (gravity and mechanics) and Robert Boyle (chemistry).
    Remember that an awful lot of the knowledge of science in mathematics in Europe came from the Arabs who had been translating, interpreting and extending the work of the Greeks for hundreds of years (while Europe was in the "dark ages").
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Strange, you have definitely stopped up your knowledge base about ancient Egyptians and their contributions to where science is today. I do not believe that there is one created thing that is coming from, anywhere without a trace. The acknowledgement of the truth about where the basis of all the passed down knowledge came from. The knowledge of this present development will pass on to future generations, and they may not understand that this science was their base.
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    In recent decades (the past 5), most of the scientific publications have come from America and Germany, which is probably the best proxy for scientific accomplishments available.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
    Africa isn't a country. If the science is hidden or lost, how do you know it exists? The Olmecs invented the Mesoamerican calendar. Anything else? What science do you think the Dogons did?


    Yes I know it's a continent. There are new revelations surfacing in terms of the use of the internet, so the hidden stuff is been brought to light, and the lost stuff is been found.

    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
    I think Africa has contributed very little, certainly. The countries along the S Mediterranean did a bit in ancient times no doubt, being part of the Med civilisations in Egyptian, Roman, Carthaginian and Hellenistic periods. And no doubt again during the Muslim efflorescence in the Middle Ages there will have been some Mediterranean Africans who contributed. But sub-Saharan Africa seems to have remained largely pre-literate throughout and it is pretty hard to see what contribution to science can be made if nothing is recorded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I want to agree with you, but I would add Africa, although most of the science is hidden and some lost, my three countries would be Africa, China, and India. The Greeks are somewhat later. I guess we are not talking about the Olmec's, or the Dogons.
    Africa isn't a country. If the science is hidden or lost, how do you know it exists? The Olmecs invented the Mesoamerican calendar. Anything else? What science do you think the Dogons did?


    Yes I know it's a continent. There are new revelations surfacing in terms of the use of the internet, so the hidden stuff is been brought to light, and the lost stuff is been found.

    Do you think Africa has not contributed anything to science?
    I think Africa has contributed very little, certainly. The countries along the S Mediterranean did a bit in ancient times no doubt, being part of the Med civilisations in Egyptian, Roman, Carthaginian and Hellenistic periods. And no doubt again during the Muslim efflorescence in the Middle Ages there will have been some Mediterranean Africans who contributed. But sub-Saharan Africa seems to have remained largely pre-literate throughout and it is pretty hard to see what contribution to science can be made if nothing is recorded.
    Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    I think Africa has contributed very little, certainly. The countries along the S Mediterranean did a bit in ancient times no doubt, being part of the Med civilisations in Egyptian, Roman, Carthaginian and Hellenistic periods. And no doubt again during the Muslim efflorescence in the Middle Ages there will have been some Mediterranean Africans who contributed. But sub-Saharan Africa seems to have remained largely pre-literate throughout and it is pretty hard to see what contribution to science can be made if nothing is recorded.
    Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.

    Your rhetorical questions do not seem to address the point raised in the reply of member exchemist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    In recent decades (the past 5), most of the scientific publications have come from America and Germany, which is probably the best proxy for scientific accomplishments available.

    China, the UK and Japan also seem to do very well (cf. http://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php).
    Yet, I have to note that the statistics cover only the years 1996-2012.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    [Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
    What does any of that have to do with science in Africa? You keep making vague claims but you have provided no specifics about science in Africa.

    Please explain what you are talking about.

    Don't you know that everything you know came from the past?
    Well, of course. It could hardly come from the future. But very little of it came from Africa. The mathematics and axiomatic method developed by Euclid and others was obviously important. But we have moved on a long way since then (non-Euclidean geometry, for one obvious example). And many of their ideas have since been shown to be wrong.

    It is almost as if you are claiming that, because Euclid and Eratosthenes did great work in Ancient Egypt, therefore General Relativity is an African invention. Which, of course, would be idiotic.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    After the 3rd century B.C., a remarkable spreading of knowledge began to occur between the ancient Egyptians, Nubians, and Aksumites of Africa, their Mediterranean neighbours in Greece and the Semitic peoples of Western Asia. This resulted in the birth of one of the most dynamic eras of scientific discovery the world has ever known. It was Alexandria that became a nexus for this extraordinary scientific energy, an amazing city named after Alexander himself. It here that was located the great library, said at its height to contain over a million books.

    Though some of the great achievements of the of this time period have in past been attributed soley to the Greeks, we now know that it was actually a true conjoining of Northeast Africa's three thousand years of accumulated scientific knowledge with that of their ancient Greek conquerors that resulted in the real greatness of this epoch for scientific development and left a legacy that made Greek science the basic foundation for much of the science that exists around the world today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    [Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
    What does any of that have to do with science in Africa? You keep making vague claims but you have provided no specifics about science in Africa.

    Please explain what you are talking about.

    Don't you know that everything you know came from the past?
    Well, of course. It could hardly come from the future. But very little of it came from Africa. The mathematics and axiomatic method developed by Euclid and others was obviously important. But we have moved on a long way since then (non-Euclidean geometry, for one obvious example). And many of their ideas have since been shown to be wrong.

    It is almost as if you are claiming that, because Euclid and Eratosthenes did great work in Ancient Egypt, therefore General Relativity is an African invention. Which, of course, would be idiotic.
    Africa did not pass it's history down by writing but by word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future. I guess you want to tell me that western civilization is the pinnacle of science, but you should remember the discovery of the scope is not that old it was discovered somewhere in the 1500, western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round. Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet, you have to give thanks for Google or you would still be in the dark. African people have been here for thousands of years and they are still here do you know what that means? they have scientifically found a way to survive. I think it would be equally idiotic to believe Africa has not contributed to science, oh I forgot there is no other on the planet but you guys.
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    There is an interesting open question as to whether the Egyptians got writing from the Sumerians or not. Clearly, they did not get the actual writing system, as they used hieroglyphs rather than cuneiform. However, they might have got the concept, and even some details of how to implement it, from the Sumerians.

    And of course, our alphabet, and most of the world's writing systems are derived from the Egyptian.

    That isn't science, of course. (Except in the old-fashioned sense of "knowledge".)
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    After the 3rd century B.C., a remarkable spreading of knowledge began to occur between the ancient Egyptians, Nubians, and Aksumites of Africa, their Mediterranean neighbours in Greece and the Semitic peoples of Western Asia. This resulted in the birth of one of the most dynamic eras of scientific discovery the world has ever known. It was Alexandria that became a nexus for this extraordinary scientific energy, an amazing city named after Alexander himself. It here that was located the great library, said at its height to contain over a million books.

    Though some of the great achievements of the of this time period have in past been attributed soley to the Greeks, we now know that it was actually a true conjoining of Northeast Africa's three thousand years of accumulated scientific knowledge with that of their ancient Greek conquerors that resulted in the real greatness of this epoch for scientific development and left a legacy that made Greek science the basic foundation for much of the science that exists around the world today.
    Ascended it is admirable the effort you put in knowing your world history, I wish some of the on line readers would take a bite of your knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Africa did not pass it's history down by writing but by word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future. I guess you want to tell me that western civilization is the pinnacle of science, but you should remember the discovery of the scope is not that old it was discovered somewhere in the 1500, western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round. Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet, you have to give thanks for Google or you would still be in the dark. African people have been here for thousands of years and they are still here do you know what that means? they have scientifically found a way to survive. I think it would be equally idiotic to believe Africa has not contributed to science, oh I forgot there is no other on the planet but you guys.
    I'm afraid that really doesn't make much sense. You are just making some general statements about people in the past, all over the place, contributing to the sum of human knowledge.

    Well, yeah. Obviously. Duh.

    western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round
    I don't believe there has ever been a time when a significant number of people though the world was flat.

    they have scientifically found a way to survive.
    People have survived all over the world for millions of years. They didn't need science to do that.

    But maybe the word "science" means something different to you than it does to me. What do you mean by science?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    [Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
    What does any of that have to do with science in Africa? You keep making vague claims but you have provided no specifics about science in Africa.

    Please explain what you are talking about.

    Don't you know that everything you know came from the past?
    Well, of course. It could hardly come from the future. But very little of it came from Africa. The mathematics and axiomatic method developed by Euclid and others was obviously important. But we have moved on a long way since then (non-Euclidean geometry, for one obvious example). And many of their ideas have since been shown to be wrong.

    It is almost as if you are claiming that, because Euclid and Eratosthenes did great work in Ancient Egypt, therefore General Relativity is an African invention. Which, of course, would be idiotic.
    Africa did not pass it's history down by writing but by word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future. I guess you want to tell me that western civilization is the pinnacle of science, but you should remember the discovery of the scope is not that old it was discovered somewhere in the 1500, western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round. Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet, you have to give thanks for Google or you would still be in the dark. African people have been here for thousands of years and they are still here do you know what that means? they have scientifically found a way to survive. I think it would be equally idiotic to believe Africa has not contributed to science, oh I forgot there is no other on the planet but you guys.
    Well, all that may be so, but, as Saul Bellow memorably asked, "Who is the Tolstoy of the Zulus?" One might equally say who was their Newton, their Einstein, their Maxwell, their Carnot…….?

    The question was about contribution to science, not about being ancestral human beings.

    You may not like my answer, but if you don't, it's up to you to provide examples of specific contributions to science from Africa, with people and dates. I think you'll find there are almost none.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    There is an interesting open question as to whether the Egyptians got writing from the Sumerians or not. Clearly, they did not get the actual writing system, as they used hieroglyphs rather than cuneiform. However, they might have got the concept, and even some details of how to implement it, from the Sumerians.

    And of course, our alphabet, and most of the world's writing systems are derived from the Egyptian.

    That isn't science, of course. (Except in the old-fashioned sense of "knowledge".)
    There is a lot more you don't know, I would suggest you take a slice of Ascended cake and do your world history, it will only make you broader and take your fear away. Science is moving on, it never stops, credit is due to everyone on the planet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    There is a lot more you don't know, I would suggest you take a slice of Ascended cake and do your world history, it will only make you broader and take your fear away. Science is moving on, it never stops, credit is due to everyone on the planet.
    I have studied history. And specifically history of science. I have a reasonable knowledge of the mathematics, science and technology of the Ancient Near East, Ancient Egypt, India, China, the Islamic world, etc.

    That is why I have provided some specific examples of developments that took place in those areas. All you have done is make vague statements about the importance of ... well, something ... I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make.

    And I have no idea what "fear" you are referring to.

    Can you explain what you mean by the word "science"? Please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    There is an interesting open question as to whether the Egyptians got writing from the Sumerians or not. Clearly, they did not get the actual writing system, as they used hieroglyphs rather than cuneiform. However, they might have got the concept, and even some details of how to implement it, from the Sumerians.

    And of course, our alphabet, and most of the world's writing systems are derived from the Egyptian.

    That isn't science, of course. (Except in the old-fashioned sense of "knowledge".)
    There is a lot more you don't know, I would suggest you take a slice of Ascended cake and do your world history, it will only make you broader and take your fear away. Science is moving on, it never stops, credit is due to everyone on the planet.

    I'm afraid you are slightly mistaken here, I have long ago discovered when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know, I would suggest you could learn a lot from him, I certainly have. Ask a few questions here, seriously, and you'll begin to see what I mean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
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    Africans without a trace, what can I say. I don't want to get into having to tell you what you do not know. There was Tot, there was Ra, there was Horas, there was Isis, there was Tutankhamen, There were astrologers. I guess you have heard of Timbuktu,the first university in Mali, or maybe not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.
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    [QUOTE=Stargate;504929]
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    [Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
    What does any of that have to do with science in Africa? You keep making vague claims but you have provided no specifics about science in Africa.

    Please explain what you are talking about.

    Don't you know that everything you know came from the past?
    Well, of course. It could hardly come from the future. But very little of it came from Africa. The mathematics and axiomatic method developed by Euclid and others was obviously important. But we have moved on a long way since then (non-Euclidean geometry, for one obvious example). And many of their ideas have since been shown to be wrong.

    It is almost as if you are claiming that, because Euclid and Eratosthenes did great work in Ancient Egypt, therefore General Relativity is an African invention. Which, of course, would be idiotic.
    Africa did not pass it's history down by writing but by word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future.
    Oral traditions are actually the worst means, often heavily embellished and distorted just to be remembered and changed to maintain generational relevance and meaningful context.

    I guess you want to tell me that western civilization is the pinnacle of science, but you should remember the discovery of the scope is not that old it was discovered somewhere in the 1500, western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round. Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet, you have to give thanks for Google or you would still be in the dark.
    The Greeks and probably all other sea fairing cultures before them knew the world was round...that's hardly a difficult conclusion. It would also be a mistake to attribute the descendant of a Greek colonist Eratothenes, who grew up on the Mediterranean coast of Africa and received his formal knowledge in Greece, with representing African knowledge....he of course figured out the Globe's circumference within a few percent.

    Yes there's a long foundation, but the fact remains that most scientific progress has been made in the past generation, most of it past what's represented in High School (and often undergrad) science books, when by economic circumstance the wealthiest and most stable nations, which happen to be mostly, Western developing most of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
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    [QUOTE=Lynx_Fox;504946]
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    [Sorry you seem to be basking in ignorance, although I cannot blame you because you have not been taught correctly about evolution. Where do you think you came from? Where do you think science came from? Don't you know that everything you know came from the past? Don't you understand that everyone contributes to life in one way or the other. I would humbly try to warn you, do not learn to be so arrogant it will keep you ignorant.
    What does any of that have to do with science in Africa? You keep making vague claims but you have provided no specifics about science in Africa.

    Please explain what you are talking about.

    Don't you know that everything you know came from the past?
    Well, of course. It could hardly come from the future. But very little of it came from Africa. The mathematics and axiomatic method developed by Euclid and others was obviously important. But we have moved on a long way since then (non-Euclidean geometry, for one obvious example). And many of their ideas have since been shown to be wrong.

    It is almost as if you are claiming that, because Euclid and Eratosthenes did great work in Ancient Egypt, therefore General Relativity is an African invention. Which, of course, would be idiotic.
    Africa did not pass it's history down by writing but by word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future.
    Oral traditions are actually the worst means, often heavily embellished and distorted just to be remembered and changed to maintain generational relevance and meaningful context.

    I guess you want to tell me that western civilization is the pinnacle of science, but you should remember the discovery of the scope is not that old it was discovered somewhere in the 1500, western science is just beginning to understand that the world is not flat, but round. Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet, you have to give thanks for Google or you would still be in the dark.
    The Greeks and probably all other sea fairing cultures before them knew the world was round...that's hardly a difficult conclusion. It would also be a mistake to attribute the descendant of a Greek colonist Eratothenes, who grew up on the Mediterranean coast of Africa and received his formal knowledge in Greece, with representing African knowledge....he of course figured out the Globe's circumference within a few percent.

    Yes there's a long foundation, but the fact remains that most scientific progress has been made in the past generation, most of it past what's represented in High School (and often undergrad) science books, when by economic circumstance the wealthiest and most stable nations, which happen to be mostly, Western developing most of it.
    Yes they might have stolen most of it, or hidden most of it. I cannot imagine why Napoleon went into the graves and demolished so many artifacts, breaking the nose and mouth of the mummified dead. what sense does that make. Why are they going to Mali and blowing up the artifacts and monuments of the people of Mali, they have no other wealth but their history. There is a lot of covering up going on. I am sure it is the internet that is churning up everything and so much is coming to the surface.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Africans without a trace, what can I say. I don't want to get into having to tell you what you do not know. There was Tot, there was Ra, there was Horas, there was Isis, there was Tutankhamen, There were astrologers. I guess you have heard of Timbuktu,the first university in Mali, or maybe not.
    That is a curiously mixed list of (misspelled) gods, a Pharaoh, and (unnamed) astrologers.

    So zero science there, then.

    I have heard of Timbuktu, of course. A major trade (including slaves, of course) and cultural centre for many centuries, and now a world Heritage Site. I haven't seen much information about the university (and what I have seen doesn't look too reliable). But I wouldn't be surprised, as one of the major trade routes was with the Islamic world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    My point is when you discuss with someone who is knowledgeable about a topic, the discussion is lively and informative. I do not mind you saying anything positive or negative because you know what you are talking about.
    I agree with you, everyone is expressing their own point of view.
    On the point of subjective expression of history, It is awfully hard to find certain facts about many countries and cultures.
    but Africa is sadly at the bottom there is a reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    He does have a nasty habit of thinking through his posts before he submits them and not facetiously acting like an expert in fields where he is not one. The jerk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    The jerk.
    Well put. Thank you. (Not so sure about the first part, though.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    He does have a nasty habit of thinking through his posts before he submits them and not facetiously acting like an expert in fields where he is not one. The jerk.
    Damn Flick you've just ruined it, here's me thinking all this time he was just smarter than the rest of us
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Africans without a trace, what can I say. I don't want to get into having to tell you what you do not know. There was Tot, there was Ra, there was Horas, there was Isis, there was Tutankhamen, There were astrologers. I guess you have heard of Timbuktu,the first university in Mali, or maybe not.
    That is a curiously mixed list of (misspelled) gods, a Pharaoh, and (unnamed) astrologers.

    So zero science there, then.

    I have heard of Timbuktu, of course. A major trade (including slaves, of course) and cultural centre for many centuries, and now a world Heritage Site. I haven't seen much information about the university (and what I have seen doesn't look too reliable). But I wouldn't be surprised, as one of the major trade routes was with the Islamic world.
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western. Of course you will not hear of the university because it was not western. You Press your Google button and if it say no information you think there was none. if it tells you there were only demi gods in Egypt then that is what you have to take. The truth is you do not understand Africa and you are quite willing not to study any of that stuff. This is why I think ascended is farther because he took time out to find out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.
    I couldn't agree more. As much as we may not admit it, this Science forum and the learning opportunity it presents is more about an understanding of human behaviour and what makes 'minds tick'. This is a debating arena where opinions 'can and really do matter' as many here use these opinions to re-inforce or reject their own ideas. This is why, for some, it is 'very' important to display a considered, respectful and responsible approach to participating in scientific debate on this forum as ultimately you are judged by the words that are released on submission.

    I have been found from time to time to 'slip' in this regard as we are all just human, but it would be re-assuring to think that members of this forum could in general abide by this principle.

    When Google is available, we can always 'impersonally' search for answers to our questions through qualified search criteria but ultimately this method is bereft of the value that considered debate and opinion brings to science. :-))
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western. Of course you will not hear of the university because it was not western.
    What??

    Why would you even waste time posting that Strange simply won't accept this profound information of yours? Show me a single post of his ~13,000 where he displays that kind of bigoted ignorance.

    Let's be honestly clear. You don't have the information he asked you to present, so you're trying to paint him as something he is not. I suppose you won't provide your evidence at my request either because I'm a "westerner" who will refuse it as it does not match my cultural identity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western.
    Of course you could. I have given you several. Feel free to do better.

    Of course you will not hear of the university because it was not western.
    Of course I have heard of many "non-Western" (whatever that means) universities. It was me, not you, who mentioned the Library at Alexandria as a great centre of Egyptian (African) learning in an attempt to get you to be more specific about what you were saying.

    The truth is you do not understand Africa and you are quite willing not to study any of that stuff.
    Then please tell me what it is I should know more about.

    And, please, please, pretty please, tell me what you think the word "science" means. Because I am really confused as to why you would list Thoth, Ra, Horus, Isis and Tutankhamun in a discussion of science. Especially of 4 of the 5 didn't exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    He does have a nasty habit of thinking through his posts before he submits them and not facetiously acting like an expert in fields where he is not one. The jerk.
    This is what I mean I have become a jerk because I am arguing my point. I am a jerk, I am everything.

    I am no expert in any field I am who I am, I know somethings and I don't know somethings, I am not going to say yes when I do not understand as many of you do. I think Strange is knowledgeable but only up to a certain point. With you I think you take your Que from what other say, not that your are not also knowledgeable, but you are too quick to think you are super man and you are not,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    This is what I mean I have become a jerk because I am arguing my point. I am a jerk, I am everything.
    Oi! He was calling ME a jerk, not you. I won't let you take that away from me. I have no real qualifications to my name; I was quite proud of that one!

    I am no expert in any field I am who I am, I know somethings and I don't know somethings
    Me too.

    but you are too quick to think you are super man and you are not
    And you are too quick to attack other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post

    He does have a nasty habit of thinking through his posts before he submits them and not facetiously acting like an expert in fields where he is not one. The jerk.
    This is what I mean I have become a jerk because I am arguing my point. I am a jerk, I am everything.
    Hey you're not a jerk, get that idea out of your head straight away. You just need more practice and for people to give you time to learn, that's all, then you'll do just fine. Don't take things personally and don't get bothered by things. Not everything is a challenge, we are here to learn and have fun, so if somethings not fun or you're not learning anything move on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western.
    That's most certainly the case for just about everyone on a science forum, when you continue to just make broad long winded claims and don't offer an iota of evidence...not only in this thread but in every other thread as well.

    In fact you teetering on getting booted out of here because you refuse to engage in any meaningful way to support your own claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western. Of course you will not hear of the university because it was not western.
    What??

    Why would you even waste time posting that Strange simply won't accept this profound information of yours? Show me a single post of his ~13,000 where he displays that kind of bigoted ignorance.

    Let's be honestly clear. You don't have the information he asked you to present, so you're trying to paint him as something he is not. I suppose you won't provide your evidence at my request either because I'm a "westerner" who will refuse it as it does not match my cultural identity?
    You know Flick that make a lot of sense. I would think logic's would assist you in knowing that the planet as everything to make it function. The diverse cultures have made it possible be it in science or whatever. It is kind of hard to discuss with someone who does not use his ability to look at things logically no mater what he is told. You are waiting for me to tell you all I know about ancient history, I can only tell you so much, you may have to learn to read the information that was left by the ancient ones, and it has nothing to do with religion. Zachariah Stichen has learned to read some of it, but he did a poor job but he did his best. Most Africans and Chinese, and many other cultures can read the English language but most of the western cultures do not and cannot speak another language, this is not good. Go to YouTube or Google and type in ancient Egyptians, or hidden Egyptian secrets, I am sure you can follow up on the line of information. Try looking at this or anyone that is going in the direction you want to know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    This is what I mean I have become a jerk because I am arguing my point. I am a jerk, I am everything.
    Oi! He was calling ME a jerk, not you. I won't let you take that away from me. I have no real qualifications to my name; I was quite proud of that one!

    I am no expert in any field I am who I am, I know somethings and I don't know somethings
    Me too.

    but you are too quick to think you are super man and you are not
    And you are too quick to attack other people.
    OK Strange I will leave it there, I have no problems with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Lets be clear Strange I will never be able to give you any names, science achievements that you will accept if it is not western.
    That's most certainly the case for just about everyone on a science forum, when you continue to just make broad long winded claims and don't offer an iota of evidence...not only in this thread but in every other thread as well.

    In fact you teetering on getting booted out of here because you refuse to engage in any meaningful way to support your own claims.
    I have told you African history was not recorded by the written word, I have tried to give evidence of somethings but they were rejected. I do not post anything on topics I do not know anything about, I read, listen, and then post.

    Lynx, I want to contribute to the forum but not at any cost, I feel like I am in prison on the forum. I have noticed so many people complaining that the forum is not fun, I want it to be fun, it can be serious, but it has to be fun. You threaten me at every move to throw me off but I do not see that I have done anything wrong to be thrown off. I cannot live in fear because I participate on the forum. I am so careful with what I say just not to cause any disruption but I seem to not be able to avoid the confrontation. Certain people say the most horrible things to other people and they get a blind eye at times. Don't make it so stiff, I am not the problem on the forum I am a guest, you have made it clear you can boot me off. I really do not like the idea of you threatening me over and over for what seems trivial. I respect your job and try not to cross the behavioral line that is set by the forum. let me tell you this truth, I follow the behavior on the forum to a certain extent because although I do not like some of it I see that is the pattern. However the pattern keeps changing, I will keep my dignity no matter how much I like the forum.
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    Strange here is some information, I can only give it to you in this form.

    The Invisible Science.

    You can YouTube it, or Google it.
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    The old U.S.S.R. That's where a lot great scientists escaped from to move to the U.S.A. etc. So I guess U.S.A. Although U.S.A. has some shitty policies against things like cloning, genetic research, and stem cells etc. For those things, it would be better to find a more open-minded place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Strange here is some information, I can only give it to you in this form.

    The Invisible Science.

    You can YouTube it, or Google it.
    Bye. Somehow doubt it will change your views, but you'll have two weeks to figure out why a show where every other sentence uses the phrases "sacred science" and "ancient magic" is complete and utter garbage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    word of mouth and images, because it has proven to be the most fool proof way of making sure it arrived in the future.
    Demonstrably false.

    Strange everyone contributed scientifically to where we are on the planet
    Also nonsense.

    I do not post anything on topics I do not know anything about
    You have shown, time and time again, that you do. Consistently.

    Zachariah Stichen has learned to read some of it, but he did a poor job but he did his best
    No. Sitchin learned nothing. He fabricated what he needed to "support" his ridiculous contentions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    Ascended, you seem to be a very reasonable fellow, so I'm intrigued. What contributions do you Africa has made to science? Can you name some? I can't for the life of me think of any, unless you count the Hellenistic civilisation in Alexandria, which was essentially Greek. But I'm more than willing to be shown wrong if you or anyone has some specifics. (My problem with Stargate is I don't think he or she knows what science is, judging by the bizarre contributions so far.)
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  67. #66  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    Ascended, you seem to be a very reasonable fellow, so I'm intrigued. What contributions do you Africa has made to science? Can you name some? I can't for the life of me think of any, unless you count the Hellenistic civilisation in Alexandria, which was essentially Greek. But I'm more than willing to be shown wrong if you or anyone has some specifics. (My problem with Stargate is I don't think he or she knows what science is, judging by the bizarre contributions so far.)
    It is probably fair to say that the ancient Greeks were one of the greatest human civilisations ever to grace this planet, yet to assume they were somehow cut off or immune from the influence of other people's or cultures would be a mistake.

    The accomplishments of the Greeks built upon thousands of years of accumilated knowledge from lands across Africa and Asia. From the earliest inventions of the Sumerians, with the wheel & writing to some of the extraordinary Kemite (ancient Egyptians) acheivements in astronomy, mathmatics, education & medicine ect.... a vast body of knowledge was being assembled that would help to provide the foundation for some of most revered scholars of ancient Greece to learn from.

    Documents such as the Edwin Smith Papyrus demonstrate the level of scientific understanding possessed by the Kemites, though dated to around 1600 B.C. it references time periods well over a thousand years earlier and describes in detail medical procedures for dealing with battlefield wounds & injuries.

    Now if we imagine that the Greeks would have had access to such knowledge it's not hard to begin to understand how and why they themselves could learn about how to record, pass on and build upon knowledge.

    In fact this is clearly attested to by the fact that so many of the most famous scholarly Greeks, such as Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato went to study at the temples of Ipet Isut (Karnak temple complex) and Waset (better known today as Luxor). But be in no doubt here these were no mere temples as in our modern understanding and interpretation, they were in fact huge places of learning not unlike our concept of a university. Indeed the great temple of Waset is said to have had over 80,000 students at its height, quite a feat for a temple that had survived for centuries since originally being founded during the reign of Amenhotep III in the XVIII Dynasty some 1391 B.C.

    Even by the time of Aristotle, some 384-322 B.C., it was still accepted that, here in his own words Aristotle himself wrote (translated from the Greek Hellenic language) "mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Kemite only".

    What we can begin to see is a pattern emerging of knowledge and understanding being shared and built upon as we move forward in time, many civilisations have played their part in getting us to where we are today, though it's sometimes hard to correctly evaluate the true contributions that have been made without a specific set of criteria, I still feel we can look back through our history towards certain civilisations and discover where specific knowledge has come from. In this respect I do feel that the accumilated scientific knowledge of the Kemites deserves it's rightful place and recognition in our history.
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  68. #67  
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    Your knowledge of the Greeks is very impressive, but was it not Francis Bacon who demolished the Aristotelian principle of reasoning by deduction?
    His namesake Roger Bacon was the first to advocate experiments to verify scientific theories.
    According to Galileo, no less, William Gilbert was the world's first true scientist.

    http://www.perceptions.couk.com/bacons.html

    http://galileo.rice.edu/sci/gilbert.html
    Last edited by ox; December 21st, 2013 at 10:06 AM.
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  69. #68  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    Ascended, you seem to be a very reasonable fellow, so I'm intrigued. What contributions do you Africa has made to science? Can you name some? I can't for the life of me think of any, unless you count the Hellenistic civilisation in Alexandria, which was essentially Greek. But I'm more than willing to be shown wrong if you or anyone has some specifics. (My problem with Stargate is I don't think he or she knows what science is, judging by the bizarre contributions so far.)
    It is probably fair to say that the ancient Greeks were one of the greatest human civilisations ever to grace this planet, yet to assume they were somehow cut off or immune from the influence of other people's or cultures would be a mistake.

    The accomplishments of the Greeks built upon thousands of years of accumilated knowledge from lands across Africa and Asia. From the earliest inventions of the Sumerians, with the wheel & writing to some of the extraordinary Kemite (ancient Egyptians) acheivements in astronomy, mathmatics, education & medicine ect.... a vast body of knowledge was being assembled that would help to provide the foundation for some of most revered scholars of ancient Greece to learn from.

    Documents such as the Edwin Smith Papyrus demonstrate the level of scientific understanding possessed by the Kemites, though dated to around 1600 B.C. it references time periods well over a thousand years earlier and describes in detail medical procedures for dealing with battlefield wounds & injuries.

    Now if we imagine that the Greeks would have had access to such knowledge it's not hard to begin to understand how and why they themselves could learn about how to record, pass on and build upon knowledge.

    In fact this is clearly attested to by the fact that so many of the most famous scholarly Greeks, such as Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato went to study at the temples of Ipet Isut (Karnak temple complex) and Waset (better known today as Luxor). But be in no doubt here these were no mere temples as in our modern understanding and interpretation, they were in fact huge places of learning not unlike our concept of a university. Indeed the great temple of Waset is said to have had over 80,000 students at its height, quite a feat for a temple that had survived for centuries since originally being founded during the reign of Amenhotep III in the XVIII Dynasty some 1391 B.C.

    Even by the time of Aristotle, some 384-322 B.C., it was still accepted that, here in his own words Aristotle himself wrote (translated from the Greek Hellenic language) "mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Kemite only".

    What we can begin to see is a pattern emerging of knowledge and understanding being shared and built upon as we move forward in time, many civilisations have played their part in getting us to where we are today, though it's sometimes hard to correctly evaluate the true contributions that have been made without a specific set of criteria, I still feel we can look back through our history towards certain civilisations and discover where specific knowledge has come from. In this respect I do feel that the accumilated scientific knowledge of the Kemites deserves it's rightful place and recognition in our history.
    Thanks for this, Ascended. It begins to make sense of what Stargate might, vaguely, have been trying to say. I gather the "Kemites" were what most of us know as "Ancient Egyptians". Who were of course African and would have had a big impact on Greek thought. What I'm still not clear about is whether we really know these people had any ideas we would consider scientific in the modern sense (the Greeks had a a few but not many).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Your knowledge of the Greeks is very impressive, but was it not Francis Bacon who demolished the Aristotelian principle of reasoning by deduction?
    His namesake Roger Bacon was the first to advocate experiments to verify scientific theories.
    According to Galileo, no less, William Gilbert was the world's first true scientist.

    The Two Bacons

    The Galileo Project | Science | William Gilbert
    We have a pretty heavy cultural bias in overemphasizing Bacon's achievements. More than a few Persian/Islamic philosophers that preceded him were on to scientific method such as Ibn al-Haytham and his book of optics. Bacon was also well aware of the Arabic/Persian achievements and cited them in his own writings.
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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    Ascended, you seem to be a very reasonable fellow, so I'm intrigued. What contributions do you Africa has made to science? Can you name some? I can't for the life of me think of any, unless you count the Hellenistic civilisation in Alexandria, which was essentially Greek. But I'm more than willing to be shown wrong if you or anyone has some specifics. (My problem with Stargate is I don't think he or she knows what science is, judging by the bizarre contributions so far.)
    It is probably fair to say that the ancient Greeks were one of the greatest human civilisations ever to grace this planet, yet to assume they were somehow cut off or immune from the influence of other people's or cultures would be a mistake.

    The accomplishments of the Greeks built upon thousands of years of accumilated knowledge from lands across Africa and Asia. From the earliest inventions of the Sumerians, with the wheel & writing to some of the extraordinary Kemite (ancient Egyptians) acheivements in astronomy, mathmatics, education & medicine ect.... a vast body of knowledge was being assembled that would help to provide the foundation for some of most revered scholars of ancient Greece to learn from.

    Documents such as the Edwin Smith Papyrus demonstrate the level of scientific understanding possessed by the Kemites, though dated to around 1600 B.C. it references time periods well over a thousand years earlier and describes in detail medical procedures for dealing with battlefield wounds & injuries.

    Now if we imagine that the Greeks would have had access to such knowledge it's not hard to begin to understand how and why they themselves could learn about how to record, pass on and build upon knowledge.

    In fact this is clearly attested to by the fact that so many of the most famous scholarly Greeks, such as Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato went to study at the temples of Ipet Isut (Karnak temple complex) and Waset (better known today as Luxor). But be in no doubt here these were no mere temples as in our modern understanding and interpretation, they were in fact huge places of learning not unlike our concept of a university. Indeed the great temple of Waset is said to have had over 80,000 students at its height, quite a feat for a temple that had survived for centuries since originally being founded during the reign of Amenhotep III in the XVIII Dynasty some 1391 B.C.

    Even by the time of Aristotle, some 384-322 B.C., it was still accepted that, here in his own words Aristotle himself wrote (translated from the Greek Hellenic language) "mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Kemite only".

    What we can begin to see is a pattern emerging of knowledge and understanding being shared and built upon as we move forward in time, many civilisations have played their part in getting us to where we are today, though it's sometimes hard to correctly evaluate the true contributions that have been made without a specific set of criteria, I still feel we can look back through our history towards certain civilisations and discover where specific knowledge has come from. In this respect I do feel that the accumilated scientific knowledge of the Kemites deserves it's rightful place and recognition in our history.
    Thanks for this, Ascended. It begins to make sense of what Stargate might, vaguely, have been trying to say. I gather the "Kemites" were what most of us know as "Ancient Egyptians". Who were of course African and would have had a big impact on Greek thought. What I'm still not clear about is whether we really know these people had any ideas we would consider scientific in the modern sense (the Greeks had a a few but not many).

    Well here inlies our problem, to make sense of the kemetic teachings we have to understand their way of thinking. In a very real sense it was different from our current modern methods for understanding science. They were able to observe and record results, this helped develop and pass on knowledge, but the way in which it was done was intertwined by so many different competing ideas of mysticism and spirituality, notions that today we keep very distinct and seperate from our science.

    This makes it very difficult to recognise specific scientific ideas without first sorting and seperating out the religious and 'magical' elements, in fact much of the knowledge, procedures and understanding from their history is defined by so many of these terms, today we attribute dfifferent meanings and thus dismiss them as pseudoscience. The reality is that today we can define things much more clearly and influenced greatly by how the Greeks were able to seperate and decipher the relevant facts, the real basis here of scientific accomplishment. They went on to give us the age of enlightenment because they weren't hampered by such superstitions.

    What seems pretty hard to dismiss as non-scientific though are real acheivements like being able to teach Greek students how navigate from star maps, surely at least a basic knowlegde of astronomy must have been required for this, again such feats as teaching Hippocrates about anatomy & medicine, it seems hard to imagine could have been done without at least rudimentary understanding of some scientific practices.

    What we have to remember though is much of our recorded history is based upon the Greek perspective, it's their accomplishments that are widely known and celebrated, certainly overshadowing civilisations before and since and therefore perhaps no real suprise that the Kemites don't fully get the recognition they so justly deserve.
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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    [ when it comes to facts Strange is never wrong and there is very little he doesn't know
    If only that were true
    Sorry Ascended he does know a lot, but he does not know more about world history than you.

    Hey I actually agree with you, I think that Africa has made a significant contribution to science, I think the problem here is less about knowledge and facts and really more about opinions and how people are equating and interpretting the things they do know, this is leading to different opinions. Don't let it bother you though, as I said ask a few questions, think of this as learning opportunity to try understand how and why others are coming to their opinions, it will help give you some insight and different perspective on the facts.

    But history is always going to be subjective, you can't remove yourself from the equation and this goes for everybody else, you can have 10 people and each may come to a totally different conclusion from the same set of facts.
    Ascended, you seem to be a very reasonable fellow, so I'm intrigued. What contributions do you Africa has made to science? Can you name some? I can't for the life of me think of any, unless you count the Hellenistic civilisation in Alexandria, which was essentially Greek. But I'm more than willing to be shown wrong if you or anyone has some specifics. (My problem with Stargate is I don't think he or she knows what science is, judging by the bizarre contributions so far.)
    It is probably fair to say that the ancient Greeks were one of the greatest human civilisations ever to grace this planet, yet to assume they were somehow cut off or immune from the influence of other people's or cultures would be a mistake.

    The accomplishments of the Greeks built upon thousands of years of accumilated knowledge from lands across Africa and Asia. From the earliest inventions of the Sumerians, with the wheel & writing to some of the extraordinary Kemite (ancient Egyptians) acheivements in astronomy, mathmatics, education & medicine ect.... a vast body of knowledge was being assembled that would help to provide the foundation for some of most revered scholars of ancient Greece to learn from.

    Documents such as the Edwin Smith Papyrus demonstrate the level of scientific understanding possessed by the Kemites, though dated to around 1600 B.C. it references time periods well over a thousand years earlier and describes in detail medical procedures for dealing with battlefield wounds & injuries.

    Now if we imagine that the Greeks would have had access to such knowledge it's not hard to begin to understand how and why they themselves could learn about how to record, pass on and build upon knowledge.

    In fact this is clearly attested to by the fact that so many of the most famous scholarly Greeks, such as Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato went to study at the temples of Ipet Isut (Karnak temple complex) and Waset (better known today as Luxor). But be in no doubt here these were no mere temples as in our modern understanding and interpretation, they were in fact huge places of learning not unlike our concept of a university. Indeed the great temple of Waset is said to have had over 80,000 students at its height, quite a feat for a temple that had survived for centuries since originally being founded during the reign of Amenhotep III in the XVIII Dynasty some 1391 B.C.

    Even by the time of Aristotle, some 384-322 B.C., it was still accepted that, here in his own words Aristotle himself wrote (translated from the Greek Hellenic language) "mathematical arts had never before been formed, constituted or elaborated anywhere else originating in Kemite only".

    What we can begin to see is a pattern emerging of knowledge and understanding being shared and built upon as we move forward in time, many civilisations have played their part in getting us to where we are today, though it's sometimes hard to correctly evaluate the true contributions that have been made without a specific set of criteria, I still feel we can look back through our history towards certain civilisations and discover where specific knowledge has come from. In this respect I do feel that the accumilated scientific knowledge of the Kemites deserves it's rightful place and recognition in our history.
    Thanks for this, Ascended. It begins to make sense of what Stargate might, vaguely, have been trying to say. I gather the "Kemites" were what most of us know as "Ancient Egyptians". Who were of course African and would have had a big impact on Greek thought. What I'm still not clear about is whether we really know these people had any ideas we would consider scientific in the modern sense (the Greeks had a a few but not many).

    Well here inlies our problem, to make sense of the kemetic teachings we have to understand their way of thinking. In a very real sense it was different from our current modern methods for understanding science. They were able to observe and record results, this helped develop and pass on knowledge, but the way in which it was done was intertwined by so many different competing ideas of mysticism and spirituality, notions that today we keep very distinct and seperate from our science.

    This makes it very difficult to recognise specific scientific ideas without first sorting and seperating out the religious and 'magical' elements, in fact much of the knowledge, procedures and understanding from their history is defined by so many of these terms, today we attribute dfifferent meanings and thus dismiss them as pseudoscience. The reality is that today we can define things much more clearly and influenced greatly by how the Greeks were able to seperate and decipher the relevant facts, the real basis here of scientific accomplishment. They went on to give us the age of enlightenment because they weren't hampered by such superstitions.

    What seems pretty hard to dismiss as non-scientific though are real acheivements like being able to teach Greek students how navigate from star maps, surely at least a basic knowlegde of astronomy must have been required for this, again such feats as teaching Hippocrates about anatomy & medicine, it seems hard to imagine could have been done without at least rudimentary understanding of some scientific practices.

    What we have to remember though is much of our recorded history is based upon the Greek perspective, it's their accomplishments that are widely known and celebrated, certainly overshadowing civilisations before and since and therefore perhaps no real suprise that the Kemites don't fully get the recognition they so justly deserve.
    I take your point entirely about their probable influence on the Greeks. Do we know whether Ptolemaic astronomy could have been to any degree imported from the Egyptians? Astronomy is always interesting as just about all cultures appear to have had some astronomical knowledge.
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    This is a great thread and is getting more interesting as it progresses. 10/10 :-))
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    Quote Originally Posted by exchemist View Post

    I take your point entirely about their probable influence on the Greeks. Do we know whether Ptolemaic astronomy could have been to any degree imported from the Egyptians? Astronomy is always interesting as just about all cultures appear to have had some astronomical knowledge.

    I would hesitantly suggest that the answer to that is surely yes, or at least in part. Yes it seems extremely unlikey that thousands of years of Kemetic astronomy would have simply been ignored. But also given that the Ptolemaic Dynasty was essentially a Hellistic society they would also have had considerable astrological knowledge already themselves, brought with them from Macedon.

    When Ptolemy Lagides, known also as Ptolemy I Soter I, became the first ruler of the Ptolemaic Kingdom during 303 B.C. to 285 B.C., it was already some 20 years after the death of Aaristotle (322 B.C.) and nearly half a century after the death of plato (347 B.C.). When Ptolemy ascended the throne he had been a general of Alexander the Great, a Macedonian living in the Hellistic period, and as such would have had access to much of the Greek knowledge of the time, but also an understanding of the importance and power of collecting knowledge, as had Alexander himself during his many conquests.

    Again here though I would perhaps offer some caution in how we should approach trying to determine just how much influence the Kemetic teachings of astronomy actually had in influencing the Ptolemaic view of concepts such as geocentrism. We can say that the knowledge passed down from Kemites did have it's effect but the lines are somewhat blurred. So it's perhaps best to leave it at that and say that Ptolemaic astronomy was the product of both Kemetic and Greek knowledge and concieved to preserve an ostensibly Greek perspective that was ubiquitous of the this period in history.
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    Egypt was the start of mankinds empires, and as such they gathered knowledge, as knowledge was power, and hence hierarchical governments wanted to keep this power of knowledge to themselves. Hence Egyptian knowledge or divine knowledge or sacred geometry was taught only in mystery schools for the elite, and was not taught to the masses of people.

    The Greeks were the same, Alexander was more into fighting and conquest rather than knowledge, Ha, he considered himself a god just because he was ordained by God to conquer. (SEE Daniel 7).

    And on and on knowledge went underground, governments stealing knowledge and scientists, so they could increase in knowledge which was only important to them if it helped them make mighteir military weapons, as all knoweldge is basically now kept secret by governments to keep them in power.

    Rcently Cuba has made medical breakthroughs, Iran has made some amazing discoveries, but Russia with its stolen scientists and motivation to protect itself will be making the greatest technological advancements, but of course, again in the field of military advancements, sad but true, because knowledge equates with military power, and super powers need super knowledge to combat the perverse power of other super powers
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    I guess it's hard to give an answer to this questions, we can only speculate because there are many factors involved..

    But I like Ionia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .. they were the first ( at least we're taught that ) to develop an idea that maybe God in the known form doesn't exist, beside that they produced many excellent philosophers and thinkers, we had three good schools in that period , Ionian philosophy, Milesian school and pre-Socratic philosophy which were in my opinion fundamentals of science..

    But happily nowadays we have many countries that produce excellent scientists in a different areas.. People consciousness is developed enough to understand that science is a tool for survival and answers, so we have almost every country that produced many good scientist .. when it comes to macro-level I think U.S.A is first only because of the high budget...
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    The best country for science is usually the one with the highest level of general wealth.
    People need free time to think and to havve resources available to test their ideas.
    If you look at history all the advanced sciences were developed in countries that were rich enough to support a class of people devoted to the development of their knowlege.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    The best country for science is usually the one with the highest level of general wealth.
    People need free time to think and to havve resources available to test their ideas.
    If you look at history all the advanced sciences were developed in countries that were rich enough to support a class of people devoted to the development of their knowlege.
    Depends on what type of science you mean.
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  79. #78  
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    We also know now that China was developing scientific technology way before the Greeks and PERHAPS the Greeks learned many things from them and used them plus got credit for them since China wasn't putting out any types of information to the world. We now know, for example, that the rudder and compass were invented by them.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    The best country for science is usually the one with the highest level of general wealth.
    People need free time to think and to havve resources available to test their ideas.
    If you look at history all the advanced sciences were developed in countries that were rich enough to support a class of people devoted to the development of their knowlege.
    Depends on what type of science you mean.
    There aren't "types" of science. There are "fields" of science.

    However, I'm thinking that is not what you intended to convey....
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    We also know now that China was developing scientific technology way before the Greeks and PERHAPS the Greeks learned many things from them and used them plus got credit for them since China wasn't putting out any types of information to the world. We now know, for example, that the rudder and compass were invented by them.
    You must be careful here not to fall into the fallacy of a single historical parth. It is quite possible that both of these civilisations invented many things simultaneously and independently of one another.
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