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Thread: Eastern Germany and Austria - Slavic in the past, now Germanized

  1. #1 Eastern Germany and Austria - Slavic in the past, now Germanized 
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    Majour parts of Eastern Germany, Eastern and Central Austria and some parts of modern Western Germany were inhabited mostly by Slavs in 6-12 centuries. Mostly they were Germanized, Christianized and likelly played large role in formation of German genetics and identity. The Sorbs (self name seem to be the Serbs) are the only Slavs who lived in Germany for more than millenium and who still preserved their own language and culture. All citations in bold are taken by me directly from Wikipedia:

    Around AD 700 Slavic peoples started coming into the eastern parts of Holstein which had previously been settled by Germanic inhabitants who had left in the course of the Migration Period. In the early 9th century Charlemagne, whose attempts to Christianise the area were opposed by the Saxons, moved the Saxons out and brought in Polabian Slavs, allied to Charlemagne, in their stead. Liubice ("lovely") was founded on the banks of the river Trave about four kilometres north of the present-day city centre of Lübeck.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck#History

    Around the late 12th century, a Slavic settlement called Drežďany had developed on the southern bank. Another settlement existed on the northern bank, but its Slavic name is unclear. It was known as Antiqua Dresdin verifiable since 1350 and later as Altendresden, both literally "old Dresden".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden#Early_history

    Leipzig is derived from the Slavic word Lipsk, which means "settlement where the linden trees (British English: lime trees; U.S. English: basswood trees) stand".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig#Name

    The first recorded date in the history of Berlin is 1237, when the town is first mentioned in a title deed. Compared to other European capitals such as Rome, Paris or London, therefore, Berlin is a young city. Although the marshy area around the junctions of the Spree, Havel and Dahme rivers had been inhabited since the Bronze Age, the settlement at Berlin was founded by the Slavs, probably in the ninth century. (The oldest town in the area is actually Spandau, now a Berlin suburb, which dates from the eighth century.) "Berlin" is a word of Slavic origin, meaning a swamp.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...281200-1400.29

    The name of the city, Graz (see the Slavic settlement Grad), and some archaeological finds point to the erection of a small castle by Alpine Slavic people
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graz#Etymology

    Hometown of Arnold Swarzenegger was founded by Slavs. By the way, less than quarter of Austrians have R1b and the same quantity have R1a haplogroup (most common among Slavic people).
    Approx. 1/3 of family names in East Germany have Slavic origins. Even before immigrants came in. So its in fact Germans have more Slavic roots and heritage than Poles have German.

    In the 11th century Polabian Slavs founded a settlement at the Warnow river called Roztoc (which means broadening of a river); the name Rostock is derived from that designation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostock#Early_history

    In the midst of these lakes there was a settlement of the Slavic Obotrite (dated back to the 11th century). The area was called Zuarin (Zwierzyn), and the name Schwerin is derived from that designation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerin#History

    The eastern Slavic tribe of the Carantanians migrated westward along the Drava into the Eastern Alps in the wake of the expansion of their Avar overlords during the 7th century, mixed with the Celto-Romanic population, and established the realm of Carantania (later Carinthia), which covered much of eastern and central Austrian territory and was the first independent Slavic state in Europe, centred at Zollfeld.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carantania

    In the south of present-day Austria the Slavic tribes had settled in the valleys of the Drava, Mura and Save by 600 AD. The westward Slavic migration stopped further Bavarian migration eastwards by 610. Their most westward expansion was reached in 650 at the Puster Valley (Pustertal), but gradually fell back to the Enns River by 780 (Beller p. 12). The settlement boundary between Slavs and Bavarians roughly corresponds to a line from Freistadt through Linz, Salzburg (Lungau), to East Tyrol (Lesachtal), with Avars and Slavs occupying eastern Austria and modern day Bohemia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...E2.80.93700_AD

    Brandenburg is situated in territory known in antiquity as Magna Germania, which reached to the Vistula river. By the 7th century, Slavic peoples are believed to have settled in the Brandenburg area. The Slavs expanded from the east, possibly driven from their homelands in present-day Ukraine and perhaps Belarus by the invasions of the Huns and Avars. They relied heavily on river transport. The two principal Slavic groups in the present-day area of Brandenburg were the Hevelli in the west and the Sprevane in the east.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branden...ly_Middle_Ages

    Beginning in the early 10th century, Henry the Fowler and his successors conquered territory up to the Oder River. Slavic settlements such as Brenna (Brandenburg an der Havel), Budusin (Bautzen), and Chośebuz (Cottbus) came under imperial control through the installation of margraves.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottbus#History
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bautzen#History
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branden..._Havel#History


    Chemnitz is named after the river Chemnitz, a small tributary of the Zwickauer Mulde. The word "Chemnitz" is from the Sorbian language and means "stony brook". It is known in Czech as Saská Kamenice.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemnitz#History

    The name may originate from the Slavic term timänie 'swampy area'. Another possible origin for the name Demmin could be from Old Polabian dym (plural: dyminy) 'smoke', referring to clearing land through burning to make settlement possible.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demmin#History


    From the 7th through the 12th centuries, the area of Mecklenburg was taken over by Western Slavic peoples, most notably the Obotrites and other tribes that Frankish sources referred to as "Wends". The 11th century founder of the Mecklenburgian dynasty of Dukes and later Grand Dukes, which lasted until 1918, was Nyklot of the Obotrites.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg#Early_history

    Ratzeburg. The town was founded in the 11th century as Racisburg. The name is traditionally derived from the local Wendish ruler, Prince Ratibor of the Polabians, who was nicknamed Ratse.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratzeburg

    Lübben (Spreewald) (Lower Sorbian: Lubin (Błota)) is a town of 14,000 people, capital of the Dahme-Spreewald district in the Lower Lusatia region of Brandenburg, Germany.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torgau#History

    Torgau history. The settlement goes back to a Slavonic settlement named Turguo in the shire of Neletici. There was presumably a wooden Slavonic castle located under the present-day Hartenstein castle.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torgau#History

    Ribnitz-Damgarten. The town's name derives in the Slavic settlements Rybanis (ryba means fish) and Damgor (dam means oak tree, gora means hill), located on opposite sides of the mouth of the Recknitz river.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribnitz-Damgarten#History

    Währing (German pronunciation: [ˈvɛːʁɪŋ]) is the 18th district of Vienna and lies in northwestern Vienna on the edge of the Vienna Woods.
    The first mention of Währing is in documents from around 1170, as Warich. The name could plausibly come from Slavic (var for a warm spring) or Germanic (werich for a plot of land that a farmer can work for a day) origins.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%A4hring#History




    TO BE CONTINUED...


    Last edited by Stanley514; October 10th, 2014 at 09:09 AM.
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    Founded by the Polabians as Vishemir[2] and later settled by the Germans, Wismar is said to have received its civic rights in 1229, and came into the possession of Mecklenburg in 1301.
    Wismar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The origin of the name Görlitz is derived from the Slavic word for "burned land,"
    [4] referring to the technique used to clear land for settlement. Zgorzelec and Czech Zhořelec have the same derivation.
    Görlitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After the migrations,
    Slavs moved in and Potsdam was probably founded after the 7th century as a settlement of the Heveller centred on a castle. It was first mentioned in a document in 993AD as Poztupimi, when Emperor Otto III gifted the territory to the Quedlinburg Abbey, then led by his aunt
    Matilda.
    Potsdam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Cottbus. The settlement was established in the 10th century, when
    Sorbs erected a castle on a sandy island in the River Spree. The first recorded mention of the town's name was in 1156. In the 13th century German settlers came to the town and thereafter lived side-by-side with the Sorbs.

    Bautzen. The first written evidence of the existence of the city was in 1002. In 1018 the Peace of Bautzen was signed between the German king Henry II and the Polish prince Boleslaus I. The Treaty left Bautzen (Budziszyn in modern Polish) under Polish rule.

    The region around Zwickau was settled by Slavs as early as the 7th century. The name Zwickau is probably a Germanisation of the Sorbian toponym Šwikawa, which derives from Svarozič, the Slavic Sun and fire god. In the 10th century, German settlers began arriving and the native Slavs were Christianized.Zwickau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The name Güstrow comes from the
    Polabian Guščerov and means lizard place. In 1219 the Wendish castle Güstrowe was built at the place, the renaissance castle stands nowadays.
    Güstrow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The place name Gera originally referred to the area of the Elster river valley where the city now stands. The name most likely
    originated before the European migration period – the Slavic people who first settled the area during the 8th century adopted the name. The first known documentary mention of Gera dates from 995.
    Gera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Bamberg. During the post-
    Roman centuries of Germanic migration and settlement, the region afterwards included in the Diocese of Bamberg was inhabited for the most part by Slavs.
    Bamberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Kamenz (
    Sorbian Kamjenc) is a Lusatian town in eastern Saxony, Germany, with a population of 18,243, and is part of the Bautzen district.
    Kamenz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Plauen. The town was founded by
    Polabian Slavs in the 12th century and was passed to the Kingdom of Bohemia in 1327.
    Plauen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The
    Polabian name for Lüneburg is Glain (written as Chlein or Glein in older German sources), probably derived from glaino (Slavonic: glina) which means "clay". In spite of its lucrative saltworks, Lüneburg was originally subordinated to the town of Bardowick only a few miles to the north. Bardowick was older and was an important trading post for the Slavs.
    Lüneburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Luckenwalde. The former
    Slavic settlement of Lugkin was conquered by Margrave Conrad Wettin of Meissen in the course of the 1147 Wendish Crusade.
    Luckenwalde - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The
    Polabian name for Uelzen is Wilcaus (spelled Wiltzaus in older German reference material), possibly derived from wilca or wilsa (< Slavic *olăša) 'alder'.

    Some person (who claimed to be native German) claimed that such German cities as Halle, Dessau, Hof and Coburg were also founded by Slavs though wiki doesn't mention it. Participation of Slavs in development of such cities as Hamburg and Kiel is also not clear enough. Wiki mentiones only that:

    "In 880 Hamburg was destroyed again this time by Slavic and Danish soldiers." In 983, the town was destroyed by King Mstivoj of the Obodrites." After further raids by the Obodrites in 1066 the bishop Adalbert permanently moved to Bremen."

    But did Slavs took participation in its recovery? Does anyone knows?

    TO BE CONTINUED...


    Last edited by Stanley514; October 10th, 2014 at 08:54 PM.
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    The Wagri, Wagiri, or Wagrians were a tribe of Polabian Slavs inhabiting Wagria, or eastern Holstein in northern Germany, from the ninth to twelfth centuries. They were a constituent tribe of the Obodrite confederacy.
    In the Slavic uprisings of 983 and c. 1040 under Gottschalk, Wagria was wasted and ruined. Many German towns and churches were destroyed and the region was largely depopulated. In 1066, the Wagri allied with the Wilzi in storming the line of Saxon burgwarden from Mecklenburg to Schwerin and into German territory as deep as Hamburg. Around 1090, the still pagan Wagri and Liutizi came under the sway of the Rani-born Kruto. Each tribe elected its own chief who was subordinate to Kruto. In 1093, the Christian Obodrites under Henry, aided by some Saxons and the local Low German population, defeated Kruto at the Battle of Schmilau near Ratzeburg. The Wagri were brought to tributary status once more.
    The Christianisation of Wagria began under Unwan, Archbishop of Bremen, in the 1020s. Vicelin of Oldenburg, a Christian priest, first began to evangelise the Wagri and Wilzi with the permission of Henry, who was reigning from Lübeck, around 1126. In the years which followed Vicelin's mission, the Emperor Lothair II thoroughly encastellated Wagria and Canute Lavard and the Holsteiners invaded it and took Pribislav and Niklot, the Wagrian leaders, away in chains.
    In 1142, Henry the Lion and Adolf II of Holstein divided the newly conquered Slav lands between them.[1] Wagria with its castle of Sigberg went to Adolf, while Polabia with Ratzeburg went to Henry. The Trave divided the regions. There followed this division a great influx of German colonists. During the Wendish Crusade of 1147, the Wagri attacked recently founded colonies of Flemings and Frisians, but this is the last that is heard of their resistance to Germanisation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagri

    Slavs inhabited also Eastern parts of modern Kiel city.

    Meissen is sometimes known as the "cradle of Saxony". The city grew out of the early Slavic settlement of Mis(s)ni, named for the small river Mis(s)na today Meis(s)abach (see Miesbach/Musbach/Mosbach), inhabited by the Slavic Glomacze tribe and was founded as a German town by King Henry the Fowler in 929.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meissen
    Last edited by Stanley514; October 10th, 2014 at 09:52 AM.
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    If all that text is copied from somewhere, and you think it is interesting, why didn't you just provide a link to it.

    If you typed it all yourself, I have to wonder why you bothered. Perhaps you could say why you think this history is interesting and/or important. I started falling asleep after the first few hundred words.
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    If all that text is copied from somewhere, and you think it is interesting, why didn't you just provide a link to it.
    It is copied from different Wikipedia pages which are dedicated to history of different German cities and regions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    If all that text is copied from somewhere, and you think it is interesting, why didn't you just provide a link to it.
    It is copied from different Wikipedia pages which are dedicated to history of different German cities and regions.
    And why didn't you either
    a) provide a link instead of copying lots of text; or
    b) provide a link to the sources (as is generally considered good practice so that people don't have to search for the text if they want to read more).

    And could you give a brief summary of why this is of interest? Maybe you have to be German or Slavic to appreciate it ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    If all that text is copied from somewhere, and you think it is interesting, why didn't you just provide a link to it.
    It is copied from different Wikipedia pages which are dedicated to history of different German cities and regions.
    And there was me thinking you'd written some of it yourself.
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    b) provide a link to the sources (as is generally considered good practice so that people don't have to search for the text if they want to read more).
    I would have to provide dozens of links to Wikipedia pages which are dedicated to different German cities. Do you have doubt it is in wiki and I lie??? For example some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCbeck#History; History of Berlin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Brandenburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Rostock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden#Early_history; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig#Name; Schwerin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; Tell me if you need more link. Basically you could enter in wiki any city name I mentioned and go to its "History" or "Name". Easy thing to do.
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    But WHY? You've provided a series of quotes which state a number of historical facts. What point are you trying to make and what is it you want to discuss (if anything)?
    Well, that's strange. German Nazis believed so much and some of them believe up to now that any Slavs belong to different race than Germans. Interesting, what would be opinion of some of them if they will discover to have some Slavic ancestors?
    Ten years ago, Passarino et al. released a paper focusing on the origins and spread of R1a1a (back then known as Eu19). They did this by studying the frequency and diversity of the 49a,f/TaqI haplotype 11, which appeared to be linked to R1a1a. The conclusion was that R1a1a most likely originated in present day Ukraine, and expanded from there into Europe and Asia.<br><br>The news just in, courtesy of the R1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project, is that the Z283 SNP ties together the three major European R1a1a clades. These are R1a1a1-Z284, largely found in Scandinavia, R1a1a1-M458, characteristic of Western Slavic and Eastern German populations, and R1a1a1-Z280, of Central and Eastern Europe. The primary distribution of Z283 shows an uncanny resemblance to that of the former Corded Ware cultural horizon of Northern Europe. Below is a map of the Corded Ware zone from Haak et al. 2008, which describes the discovery of R1a1a in the ancient remains from a Corded Ware burial in what is now Eastern Germany.
    I whish to upload some pictures as well but didn't succeed. What is maximal size allowed?
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    Does anyone in Germany have these opinions today?
    Certainly. They express these opinions on forums. For example, that distinction between German and Slavic people is the race, etc. Some native Germans also claim that relation to Eastern Europeans in Germany is overall negative.
    Last edited by Stanley514; July 13th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
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    If you'd included the reasons behind your post and a comment along the lines of your post above in the OP it would have made your point much clearer...
    Doesn't this finding make pretty interesting and intentionally forgotten fact by itself?
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    Here is some pictures: 1) Origins of Indo-Europeans. Extent of Corded Wire culture. R1a haplogroup associated: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&si...nd%3B706%3B482; 2)The Limes Saxoniae border between the Saxons and the Slavic Obotrites, established about 810.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...xoniae.wmt.png
    Last edited by Stanley514; July 9th, 2013 at 03:47 PM.
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    Following the Slavic settlement of the Eastern Alps about 600, the Karnburg (Krnski grad) fortress became the center of the Principality of Carantania, which about 740 was vassalized by Duke Odilo of Bavaria. Carantania, also known as Carentania (Slovene: Karantanija, German: Karantanien, in Old Slavic *Korǫtanъ) was a Slavic principality that emerged in the second half of the 7th century, in the territory of present-day southern Austria and north-eastern Slovenia. It was the predecessor of the March of Carinthia, created within the Carolingian Empire in 889. In its early stages, the language of Carantanian Slavs was essentially Proto-Slavic. In Slovenian linguistic literature and reference books it is sometimes provisionally termed Alpine Slavic (alpska slovanščina). Carantania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Ill say it again for people that might Ive missed my opinion on the matter, "Races" dont exist, they are an arbitrary fabrication, its made up.
    It can be a convenient short cut reference, like a postit in a book, to indicate what you are talking about without elaborating, but its not anything else than a arbitrary label.
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 9th, 2013 at 10:01 PM.
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    Frequency of R1a haplogroup (the most common among Slavic people) by German cities according to Wikipedia.

    City - R1a%
    Berlin - 22.3
    Leipzig - 27.1
    Rostock - 31.3
    Magdeburg - 21
    Hamburg - 16.8
    Greifswald - 19.2
    Cologne - 15.6
    Munich - 14.3
    Mainz - 8.4
    Munster - 7.8

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population

    Majority of samples taking per city = 95 - 161

    Germany average R1a frequency - 17.9 %. Number of samples taken = 1215
    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 06:30 PM.
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    "Does it mean that the practice of "affirmative action" which exist officially in some countries should be cancelled?"
    I dont know, this is a racist measure to offset the racism in Racists countries! (fight fire with fire) Maybe alternate avenues are worth examining. If batshit crazy people burn old ladies because they think they are witches, there may be cause to protect old ladies, but it doenst mean you think they are witches, if you know what I mean. (Hopefully you try to use education so people realize theres no such thing as a witch, instead of saying ~you need to protect "Witches" from vigilantes ~ and solely relying on the Anti-Witchhunt Brigade)

    Frequency of R1a haplogroup
    So? I dont get where you are going with this? Why is that parameter a basis to separate humans into categories more relevant than another parameter? If someone needs blood in an accident is someone going to pull out his R1a test kit?(No, blood type does the job) If one wonders about about infections and Tcells. Why are parameters that can be elevated to a racial pedestal so important? Its almost like people are grasping straws to justify racism!

    (Im not saying genetics and genealogy arent interesting, but there's a difference between interest, and using factor A or B as a basis to stand up on a soap box and call that a "Race")

    (as always, its just my opinion, and I realize people from different backgrounds have a different view)
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 10th, 2013 at 05:24 PM.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 06:30 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Does it mean that the practice of "affirmative action" which exist officially in some countries should be cancelled? If races do not exist it doesn't have any sense?
    Racism doesn't make any sense. But it exists and so things like affirmative action were invented to try and counter the effects of racism.

    That doesn't say anything about whether race exists. It doesn't, other than as a social construct.

    Frequency of R1a haplogroup by German cities according to Wikipedia.
    How is that relevant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I dont know, this exists in Racists countries! Maybe alternate avenues are worth examining. If batshit crazy people burn old ladies because they think they are witches, there may be cause to protect old ladies, but it doenst mean you think they are witches, if you know what I mean. (Hopefully you try to use education so people realize theres no such thing as a witch, instead of solely relying on the Anti-Witchhunt Brigade)
    Not an answer to my question.
    The question 'should affirmative action be canceled'?

    Im not in such a country, so Id rather not pull a yes or no out of my hat, I dont have all the pertinent information, but off the top of my head I would say

    "Replacing "Affirmative Action" (canceling but putting in place something else) should be highly considered, where the replacement policies/endeavors seeks to address the ROOT Causes responsible for creating the SYMPTOM that "Affirmative Action" is thought to address."

    So in short "yes" it should be canceled, does that answer the question?

    " things like affirmative action were invented to try and counter the effects of racism"
    So, what happened, did it work out? If then ends justify the means, did you get the end results that justified using racism as a policy guideline?
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 10th, 2013 at 05:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Does it mean that the practice of "affirmative action" which exist officially in some countries should be cancelled? If races do not exist it doesn't have any sense?
    Racism doesn't make any sense. But it exists and so things like affirmative action were invented to try and counter the effects of racism.

    That doesn't say anything about whether race exists. It doesn't, other than as a social construct.

    Frequency of R1a haplogroup by German cities according to Wikipedia.
    How is that relevant?
    I don't like or support affirmative action or it's UK equivalent (possitive discrimination), I understand why it exists, but I personally feel on balance it does more harm than good. People many benefit for it, but many others are seen as less able because and thus their chances of advance are subsequently limited. Usually it leads to companies believing that once they've met their 'quota' that's it. Hardly fair for everyone else, also why should some be discriminated against just because their not a minority? They didn't get any choice in the matter so why should they suffer? Simply put they shouldn't.

    I'm a firm believer in judging people as individuals and on merit, this means in practice people should be judged on their abilities not the ability of a particular school to be able to maintain a good average of educational attainment targets for it students.
    I don't think it's wrong or unjust to use a criteria to assess people that doesn't accept advantage gained through having a privileged background, but equally I don't accept or give advantage to anyone for being a minority or having a deprived background.

    People, regardless of who they are or where they come from, should be judged fairly and equally. This means that in practice everybody knows that all the employees in particular positions are there on merit because they are the best people for the job and because they earned it.

    The answer to unfairness and discrimination is not more discrimination and unfairness, which only serves to reinforce stereotypes, the answer always has been and always will be a level playing field and the only way to have this is to judge people on actual ability.
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    Frequency of R1a haplogroup by German cities according to Wikipedia. How is that relevant?
    R1a is often associated with Slavic people, though it is not only Slavic haplogroup. But prevalence of R1a among Slavic nation is: Poland - 60%, Ukraine - 50%, Russian Federation - 45% approximately.
    Last edited by Stanley514; July 13th, 2013 at 07:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Frequency of R1a haplogroup by German cities according to Wikipedia. How is that relevant?
    R1a is often associated with Slavic people, though it is not only Slavic haplogroup. But prevalence of R1a among Slavic nation is: Poles - 60%, Ukrainians - 50% Russians 45% approximately.
    Are you trying to argue that groupings such as "Slavic" (primarily a linguistic classification) are separate races?
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    Are you trying to argue that groupings such as "Slavic" (primarily a linguistic classification) are separate races?
    Why should I answer such a dumb questions? In the theme I'm talking about relation between Slavic and Germanic people who belong to the same white race and to Indo-European family of nations. But there is certain genetic markers which are different between different ethnicities and we could investigate who mixed they are by making genetic research. This is what modern genetic science is widely using and investigate origins of people and patterns of their migrations through genetic markers haplogrop included. I advice you to read some serious literature on the subject. For example this is map of human haplogroup origins. For example look at this map: haplogroup - Google Search or this one European haplogroups distribution map Do you think it is false science?
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    You are using arbitrary labels as a reference for arbitrary labels, thats like when bible quoting christians use a bible quote as a reference of a bible quote of Jesus. Kind of circular.
    Theres No English, no French, no Germans, other than the artifical label we are using as a convenient references, theres language, and culture(even if mix of influences), but people is even more a construct, many tribes and countless individuals have been going back and forth throughout Europe (and even other continents), mixing, splitting. Thats like throwing a vegetable soup on the table and then drawing a shape on part of it saying that section I herby call Germany, and then mix the soup around the table, redraw the boundary and say, These are the Germans! Then mix it again where some of the soup goes all over in other boundaries (but somehow they are now called French or Dutch or English), and repeat. THat label is totally arbitrary, its useful to know what part of the table your talking about but it doesnt reflect a real tangible nature based category.

    Do you think it is false science?
    The sampling etc might not be false science, but the interpretation of the results might be baloney. 30,000 years? How many ancestors did we have 30000 years ago, lets simplify, and say each generation is 20 years, and that you split in two branches, thats roughly 1500 generations, thats like a number with 400 zeros in a line a Galactrillion Teratrillion Gazillion ancestors or something, this banter and not scientific of course, but it should give the "hint" that its almost impossible that ALL your ancestors in a tree with a collosal number of branches ALL had a the same and unique trajectory along a path of ethnocentric traced boundaries.

    allow me to add a zest of illustrative humour

    Yes, of the millions of ancestors THAT ONE! Right Here, THAT is MY very own ancestor, THE one well choose "scientifically", the others dont count because, well just because we say so, and he lived at some point in THIS region right there, which we happen to have drawn a line around on a map on a specific time period that is way more relevant than the others, and call , mesopotamia (or whatever), and THAT is the trace genetic element Im looking at, thats Why I am Mesopotamian! And dont let anyone tell different, I have my race Right here, look, look at that trace genetic marker and those lines of the earth maps we have just drawn here for the ancestor I happen to choose(or that is the genetic marker we happen to have), you've got your race right here! There


    Again I dont want to say its not interesting to look at these, and draw general conclusions about migration, history, anthropology, tons of fascinating things to look at, and so on, theres a lot of interesting aspects...
    ...but overblowing the Racial factor as people are already struggling to realize how much arbitrary it is (people are still saying things like "White" ) might cause more confusion and misconceptions than help.

    Other example

    Talking about the Visigoth is a useful label, it gives a number of contextual short cuts, historical, culture, location, climate, there once live people that is convenient to call Visigoth, but saying someone "is " a Visigoth is misleading, because not only were the Visigoth themselves comprised of various people from various places in the past, but someone in 2013 with an hypothetical Visigoth ancestor, most certainly has MANY non Visigoth ancestors that were all over the place including potential ancestors on other continents, and that someone else who might not be considered to have Visigoth ancestors might in fact just Also have many Visigoth ancestors but that we just dont know about.

    cheers
    Last edited by icewendigo; July 10th, 2013 at 08:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stanley514 View Post
    does it mean that the practice of "affirmative action" which exist officially in some countries should be cancelled? If races do not exist it doesn't have any sense?
    racism doesn't make any sense. But it exists and so things like affirmative action were invented to try and counter the effects of racism.

    That doesn't say anything about whether race exists. It doesn't, other than as a social construct.

    frequency of r1a haplogroup by german cities according to wikipedia.
    how is that relevant?
    i don't like or support affirmative action or it's uk equivalent (possitive discrimination), i understand why it exists, but i personally feel on balance it does more harm than good. People many benefit for it, but many others are seen as less able because and thus their chances of advance are subsequently limited. Usually it leads to companies believing that once they've met their 'quota' that's it. Hardly fair for everyone else, also why should some be discriminated against just because their not a minority? They didn't get any choice in the matter so why should they suffer? Simply put they shouldn't.

    I'm a firm believer in judging people as individuals and on merit, this means in practice people should be judged on their abilities not the ability of a particular school to be able to maintain a good average of educational attainment targets for it students.
    I don't think it's wrong or unjust to use a criteria to assess people that doesn't accept advantage gained through having a privileged background, but equally i don't accept or give advantage to anyone for being a minority or having a deprived background.

    People, regardless of who they are or where they come from, should be judged fairly and equally. This means that in practice everybody knows that all the employees in particular positions are there on merit because they are the best people for the job and because they earned it.

    The answer to unfairness and discrimination is not more discrimination and unfairness, which only serves to reinforce stereotypes, the answer always has been and always will be a level playing field and the only way to have this is to judge people on actual ability.
    applause!!!!!
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    My parents are Slovenian. If you called them "Slavic" you would be firmly and quickly corrected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My parents are Slovenian. If you called them "Slavic" you would be firmly and quickly corrected.
    Although, Slovene is a Slavic language ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    My parents are Slovenian. If you called them "Slavic" you would be firmly and quickly corrected.
    Although, Slovene is a Slavic language ...
    it is not Slovene, it is Slovenian. My mother would literally shoot you. She lived through WWII as a girl there. Dad's parents also. They are incredibly insulted by that reference or being asked if they are Serbian. Croatian, Dalmatia, is fine. Though I know that the southern Slav's (as they were termed) migrated there. Here is a link that gives a little history. My mother has told me more about it as she grew up and through the war. History*|*slovenia.si though much of the history isn't really written about that I can find. I did learn the culture, (dances, music, food, et) and have visited my uncles and aunts, cousins on both sides.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    it is not Slovene, it is Slovenian.
    Or both...
    Slovene | Ethnologue

    My mother would literally shoot you.


    I understand the cultural sensitivities in that part of the world, and no offence to you or your mum (who, I am sure, is lovely ... when she isn't carrying a gun) was intended.
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    They are incredibly insulted by that reference or being asked if they are Serbian.
    Why so?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They are incredibly insulted by that reference or being asked if they are Serbian.
    Why so?
    For most of the twentieth century, the leaders of Serbia chose themselves to be the leaders of all south Slavs. After WW I they achieved their objective (Yugoslavia) where the Serbs dominated the country. Tito (after WW II) tried to bring some sort of equality to the different groups. However after his death the Serbian leaders tried to reassert their leadership position, resulting in the breakup of the country as well as the horrors of "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia and Kosovo.

    It is not surprising that Slovenes, Croats, etc. have strong antipathy toward the Serbs.
    Last edited by mathman; July 11th, 2013 at 06:50 PM. Reason: typo
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    However after his death the Serbian leaders tried to reassert their leadership position, resulting in the breakup of the country as well as the horrors of "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia and Kosovo.

    It is not surprising that Slovenes, Croats, etc. have strong antipathy toward the Serbs.
    From what I know Serbia didn't have any hostility particularly with Slovenia. And what exactly, do you think, happened in Kosovo?
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    I guess if you're going to be a racist, you'll want to find a way to convince yourself that yours is the "master race" . I mean, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of believing some people are superior/inferior to others if you place yourself in the inferior group.

    I don't fully understand why Hitler considered Eastern European people to be inferior to German people, nor why he didn't extend that same attitude toward the French and English to his West.

    I think it had something to do with those countries having been conquered by the Mongols, and his belief that there had been some blood mixtures involved in it. But of course I don't know the whole history. I know the Kievan Rus were considered to be vikings in many accounts, and looked at the slavs as being a different people from themselves, but then they also colonized the area, so one might consider that people in Ukraine and Russia would have a lot of viking blood in them.

    Vikings, of course, were the pure blooded master race according to Nazism. Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Which of course Hitler didn't exactly exemplify himself, nor do quite a number of German people.)
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    think it had something to do with those countries having been conquered by the Mongols, and his belief that there had been some blood mixtures involved in it.
    An interesting question. Mongols have black hair and black hair is genetically dominant trait. Therefore people who mixed with Mongols suppose to have darker hair. According to this "Europe hair coloration map" large parts of Russia have more blondes on average than Germany with Ukraine and all European part of Russia having approx. the same amount. And higher than among French. Europe hair coloration map - Google Search Here is more maps: Europe hair coloration map - Google Search; europe hair coloration maps - Google Search Percent of light eyes among Europeans: http://www.google.ca/search?gs_rn=19...2F%3B500%3B492 I do not claim that those maps are accurate, I have no idea. But would be interesting to know how accurate is it. I thought myself there should be more brunettes among Russians and Ukrainians, blondes became rare nowadays... Major Mongolian haplogroup C3 is vary rare among ethnical Russians and Ukrainians but is dominant among Kazakhs and Kalmyks. On this map it is in black colour. nowadays - Google Search Haplogroups always pass from ancestor to descendant by male line and allows to follow how nations mixed with each other. Asian admixtures are not very common among ethnical Russians and Ukrainians but if they present they have more in common with West Asia and Near East than Far East. Ukrainians and Southern Russian have more in common with Tatars, Turks and Persians (as well as Greeks, Balkans, Hungarians and Georgeans) than with Mongols. Northern Russians have more Finno-Hungarian than Slavic blood. But still it doesn't deny their right to qualify as Slavs linguistically and culturally. Personally I do not care about it..
    Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Which of course Hitler didn't exactly exemplify himself, nor do quite a number of German people.)
    According to Wikipedia: Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of Germany from 1933 to 1945, is believed to belong to Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1b1 (E-M35), an haplogroup which originated in East Africa about 22,400 years BP. List of haplogroups of notable people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    it is not Slovene, it is Slovenian.
    Or both...
    Slovene | Ethnologue

    My mother would literally shoot you.


    I understand the cultural sensitivities in that part of the world, and no offence to you or your mum (who, I am sure, is lovely ... when she isn't carrying a gun) was intended.
    Mahalo!! *L*.....she's 89 and can still split wood.....and she isn't large either!! *chuckle*.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    think it had something to do with those countries having been conquered by the Mongols, and his belief that there had been some blood mixtures involved in it.
    An interesting question. Mongols have black hair and black hair is genetically dominant trait. Therefore people who mixed with Mongols suppose to have darker hair. According to this "Europe hair coloration map" large parts of Russia have more blondes on average than Germany with Ukraine and all European part of Russia having approx. the same amount. And higher than among French. Europe hair coloration map - Google Search Here is more maps: Europe hair coloration map - Google Search; europe hair coloration maps - Google Search Percent of light eyes among Europeans: nowadays - Google Search I do not claim that those maps are accurate, I have no idea. But would be interesting to know how accurate is it. I thought myself there should be more brunettes among Russians and Ukrainians, blondes became rare nowadays... Major Mongolian haplogroup C3 is vary rare among ethnical Russians and Ukrainians but is dominant among Kazakhs and Kalmyks. On this map it is in black colour. nowadays - Google Search Haplogroups always pass from ancestor to descendant by male line and allows to follow how nations mixed with each other. Asian admixtures are not very common among ethnical Russians and Ukrainians but if they present they have more in common with West Asia and Near East than Far East. Ukrainians and Southern Russian have more in common with Tatars, Turks and Persians (as well as Greeks, Balkans, Hungarians and Georgeans) than with Mongols. Northern Russians have more Finno-Hungarian than Slavic blood. But still it doesn't deny their right to qualify as Slavs linguistically and culturally. Personally I do not care about it..
    Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Which of course Hitler didn't exactly exemplify himself, nor do quite a number of German people.)
    According to Wikipedia: Adolf Hitler, Chancellor of Germany from 1933 to 1945, is believed to belong to Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1b1 (E-M35), an haplogroup which originated in East Africa about 22,400 years BP. List of haplogroups of notable people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hitler was probably wrong about a lot of things. Nazi ideology didn't necessarily limit itself to telling the truth.

    However the maps of blond hair were interesting. Always nice to know where one might go to meet a blond woman.




    Here's a map of the Mongol conquests.



    Mongol conquests - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia






    The areas with highest rate of blond hair appear to coincide with regions that the Mongols either didn't conquer at all, or didn't ultimately incorporate into their empire.

    Anyway I'm not so sure that Mongol blood is a bad thing. They kicked ass in their day. Mongol culture is bad maybe, but their bloodline not so bad.
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    However the maps of blond hair were interesting. Always nice to know where one might go to meet a blond woman.
    Honestly, I'm not sure how much those maps are correct. They seem to be created by some amateurs and nobody knows on which exactly data. But it would be interesting to know if there is some more serious scientific research on the subject. I think that during population census they could ask people about their hair and eye colour. In Eastern Europe vast majority of people would not feel abused if they will be asked about their ethnicity and hair/eye colour and it would be quite interesting to know. Or they may conduct such research among ethical Russians/Slavs only. Majority of Mongols by anthropometric features are typical East Asians, they are overwhelmingly black haired, have sphere-like heads, very pronounced cheekbones, thick and coarse hair and epicantus fold. On the other hand I never met any ethnical Russian or Ukrainian who would have epicantus fold. I think Russians could be more mixed with Tatars and other Turkic people than with Mongols. Tatar language (as well as Pecheneg, Khazar or Polovets) is more related to Turkish and not related to Mongol. Majority of modern Tatars do not have completely developed epicantus fold. Originally of Turkic stock they also mixed with Finno-Hungarians and later with Mongols. Some Tatars are even blond. For example the richest person of Ukraine Rinat Akmetov. Rinat Akhmetov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Honestly, sometimes I met some Ukrainians and Russian who may have some general Asian influence, but in majority it is not that much visible. But what is unusual here? In U.S. many people with predominantly European ancestry have some Cherokee grandfather or Chinese grandmother. Are they less mixed on average than Russians?
    Last edited by Stanley514; July 13th, 2013 at 07:14 PM.
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    Slovenian.......RED Hair, Blonde hair, Blue or green eyes....fair....and black hair and blue eye and fair........
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    Here's a map of the Mongol conquests.
    The map is incomplete. Mongols also caused crushing defeat to united German-Czech-Polish army and invaded parts of Central Europe. The Mongols invaded Central Europe with three armies. One army defeated an alliance which included forces from fragmented Poland and members of various Christian military orders, led by Henry II the Pious, Duke of Silesia in the battle of Legnica. A second army crossed the Carpathian mountains and a third followed the Danube. The armies re-grouped and crushed Hungary in 1241, defeating the Hungarian army at the Battle of Mohi on April 11, 1241. The devastating Mongol invasion killed half of Hungary's then-population.[12] The armies swept the plains of Hungary over the summer and in the spring of 1242, regained impetus and extended their control into Austria and Dalmatia and Moravia. Batu Khan sent a smaller group of troops to Poland, destroying Lublin and defeating an inferior Polish army. Surprise gave the Poles an initial advantage and they managed to kill many Mongol soldiers. When the invaders realized the actual numerical weakness of the Poles, they regrouped, broke through the Polish ranks and defeated them. During the fighting, many Polish prisoners of war found ways to escape and hide in the nearby woods. The Polish defeat was partly influenced by the initially successful Polish knights having been distracted by looting. The Hungarian army (some 60,000 on the eve of the Battle of Mohi) was made up of individual knights with tactical knowledge, discipline, and talented commanders. The Hungarian army arrived and encamped at the Hernád river[where?] on April 10, 1241 without having been directly challenged by the Mongols. The Mongols began their attack the next night; quickly it was clear the Hungarians were lost. While the king escaped with the help of his bodyguard, the remaining Hungarian army was mercilessly killed by the Mongols or drowned in the river as they attempted escape. The Mongols now systematically occupied the Great Hungarian Plains, the slopes of the northern Carpathian Mountains, and Transylvania. Where they found local resistance, they ruthlessly killed the population. The Mongols, instead of leaving the defenseless and helpless people and continuing their campaign through Pannonia to Western Europe, spent the entire summer and fall securing and pacifying the occupied territories. Then during the winter, contrary to the traditional strategy of nomadic armies which started campaigns only in spring-time, they crossed the Danube and continued their systematic occupation, including Pannonia. They eventually reached the Austrian borders and the Adriatic shores in Dalmatia. At this time, Croatia was part of Hungary, since it was conquered by the Kingdom of Hungary in 1091.[When routed on the banks of the Sajo River in 1241 by the Tartars and Mongols, Béla IV fled to today's Zagreb in Croatia. The poorly-fortified Zagreb was unable to resist the invasion and was destroyed, its cathedral burned by Mongols.[Baidar and Kadan on 13 February defeated a Polish army under the voivode of Kraków, Włodzimierz, in the battle of Tursk.[6] On 18 March they defeated another Polish army with units from Kraków and Sandomierz at the battle of Chmielnik.[6] Panic spread through the Polish lands, and the citizens abandoned Kraków, which was seized and burned by the Mongols by March 24.[6] In the meantime, one of the most powerful contemporary Dukes of Poland, and Duke of Silesia, Henry II the Pious, gathered his forces and allies around Legnica.[6] Henry, in order to gather more forces, even sacrificed one of the largest towns of Silesia, Wrocław (Breslau), abandoning it to the Mongols.[Lublin, Sieradz, Sandomierz, Zawichost, Kraków, and Bytom were ravaged and plundered by the Mongol army. An unsuccessful raid followed in 1287, led by Talabuga and Nogai Khan. Lublin, Mazovia, Sandomierz and Sieradz were successfully raided, but they were defeated at Kraków. Despite this, Kraków was devastated. In Kraków, the legacy of the Mongol invasions is found in the traditions of lajkonik and hejnał mariacki.[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Poland; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe#Invasion_into_Central_Eu rope
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    My parents are Slovenian. If you called them "Slavic" you would be firmly and quickly corrected.
    Indeed Slovenian has something common with Slavic languages. I took lessons of Russian and reviewed Slovenian vocabulary. There is many similarities. For example: English - Slovenian - Russian
     
    Mister - Gospod - Gospodin
    Mrs. Gospa - Gospoža
    Star - Zvezda - Zvezda
    Glass - Steklo - Steklo
    Skin - Koža - Koža
    Speak - Govorimo - Govorit`
    Propose - Predlagati - Predlagat`
    Search - Iskanje - Iskat`
    Street - Ulitsa – Ulitsa
    Work - Delo - Delo
    Flower - Cvet - Cvetok
    Sense - Smisl - Smysl
    Bird - Ptica - Ptica
    Debt - Dolg - Dolg
    How - Kako - Kak
    Pike - ščuka - ščuka
    Trader - Trgovec - Torgovec
    Toad - Žaba - Žaba
    etc...
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    I get the impression that many Eastern European people are looking for something to have ethnic pride in. Communism didn't work out so well, and capitalism feels like being dominated by the West.

    So racism always appears to offer a solution at a time like this. Just be careful. The Germans were feeling pretty humiliated before Hitler came along also, and his plan didn't go so well for them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Here's a map of the Mongol conquests.
    The map is incomplete. Mongols also caused crushing defeat to united German-Czech-Polish army and invaded parts of Central Europe. The Mongols invaded Central Europe with three armies. One army defeated an alliance which included forces from fragmented Poland and members of various Christian military orders, led by Henry II the Pious, Duke of Silesia in the battle of Legnica. A second army crossed the Carpathian mountains and a third followed the Danube. The armies re-grouped and crushed Hungary in 1241, defeating the Hungarian army at the Battle of Mohi on April 11, 1241. The

    They beat them in the initial battle, but they didn't stay and actually try to hold the area. Apparently Western Europe's terrain and weather were unfavorable to the Mongolian manner of warfare.

    There were too many forests and hills, and other places where an army might get trapped with no room to maneuver. The Mongols were completely helpless if they couldn't use their horse archers. On foot, or in sword vs. sword combat they usually got defeated pretty easily. Their success in the East was due to the fact they never had to fight a battle that was primarily sword to sword.

    The Mongols had excellent siege engines, so if you tried to fight them from a fortified position, they'd use their catapults and trebuchets, and they even had Chinese gunpowder. If you met them on the field, and they had room to maneuver, then their horse archers would just kill all of your army with arrows. They could keep moving out of the way before the men with swords and spears could get close enough to fight.

    However in Western Europe, it would be possible to ambush them in an area where there was too little room to keep running away, and the Mongols would have a chance to get massacred.


    I think this is an important point to make, because there's nothing to indicate that Western Europe's armies had superior fighting skills. But their terrain was better for defending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    But what is unusual here? In U.S. many people with predominantly European ancestry have some Cherokee grandfather or Chinese grandmother. Are they less mixed on average than Russians?
    As I said, the Nazis operated off of myth and legend more than genuine research. Certainly nobody anywhere has a pure bloodline of one ethnicity.

    Probably the reason German people were ok with treating Eastern Europeans differently is really because Germany had had so many wars with Russia, Poland, and Ukraine over the years, and simply saw them as enemies. Whereas England and France were seen as fellow Western Europeans. Friends who fight, instead of enemies. I get the impression that their wars with France and England hadn't been nearly as bitter as their wars with their Eastern neighbors.
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    I get the impression that their wars with France and England hadn't been nearly as bitter as their wars with their Eastern neighbors.
    Not really. From what I know Hitler was eager to bomb peaceful quarters of London and other England cities and kill peaceful citizens in numbers. He sent missiles V2 to England up to the end of war. He would bomb England as much as he would be able. I didn't hear that German Nazis would somehow ground their treatment of Eastern Europeans with exception of general phrases. They were far from real science. Also Nazis bombed Rotterdam (or some Holland city) with fire bombs after occupation of this country was over just as an act of intimidation. At the end of war Nazis put explosives all entire Paris and Hitler ordered to explode it and it was not done only due to some reasonable commander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I get the impression that their wars with France and England hadn't been nearly as bitter as their wars with their Eastern neighbors.
    Not really. From what I know Hitler was eager to bomb peaceful quarters of London and other England cities and kill peaceful citizens in numbers. He sent missiles V2 to England up to the end of war. He would bomb England as much as he would be able. I didn't hear that German Nazis would somehow ground their treatment of Eastern Europeans with exception of general phrases. They were far from real science. Also Nazis bombed Rotterdam (or some Holland city) with fire bombs after occupation of this country was over just as an act of intimidation. At the end of war Nazis put explosives all entire Paris and Hitler ordered to explode it and it was not done only due to some reasonable commander

    That is true however the Nazi's treated the Russians and other Eastern Europeans as 'Subhumans', they were shown absolutely no mercy and suffered from appauling war crimes perpetrated against them. The British, French, American and other Allied prisoners were all by comparison treated with much more dignity and far more humanely.
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    My mother can attest to the fact that neither the NAZI's OR the Communists showed mercy, period. They hid my uncle in the forests for months and months, even winter, to keep him from being dragged off, and they had no problem with killing family members impromptu in front of the families, for whatever reason.
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    Was she in Eastern Europe or Western Europe at the time?

    That's the main issue. A lot of folks in Eastern Europe got put in concentration camps, even though they weren't Jewish or Gypsies. (Hitler hated Gypsies too.)

    France, on the other hand, became part of the Nazi war machine. There was "La Resistance", but Paris was left intact. Occupied, but intact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Was she in Eastern Europe or Western Europe at the time?

    That's the main issue. A lot of folks in Eastern Europe got put in concentration camps, even though they weren't Jewish or Gypsies. (Hitler hated Gypsies too.)

    France, on the other hand, became part of the Nazi war machine. There was "La Resistance", but Paris was left intact. Occupied, but intact.
    Eastern. Slovenia. Yes, they would also shoot you in front of your family just for fun. Mother's family were not gypsies. Frankly the gypsies are still not "accepted", from what I have observed. France saved their own ass. We saved France. Ok, I still like their food and champagne., but I don't think they were "ALLIES" in any true sense of the word. I think more into self-preservation.
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    Probably the reason German people were ok with treating Eastern Europeans differently is really because Germany had had so many wars with Russia, Poland, and Ukraine over the years, and simply saw them as enemies.
    I'm not sure that Germans had too many wars with Ukraine or Russia in particular. The largest wars were WWII and WWI. I do not know how Germans and Austrians treated Russians and Ukrainians during WWI (world war I), it would be interesting to know. During wars with Napoleon Bonaparte, Franco-Prussian war and Great Northern wars Russian Empire and Prussia/Austria were mostly allies or fought against common enemy (French, Swedes, English) etc. Also there was Livonian invasion of knights-crusaders in Northern Russia in 1240 and local Livonian wars of 16-th century but it was quite long ago and those were not wars with German state. Rather with some local forces which included some German speaking knights.
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    It's something that I've only noticed in passing, so I haven't researched the issue directly. There are examples, though. Catherine the Great came to power shortly after her husband had humiliated the Russian military by ceasing hostilities when they were just about to defeat the Prussians (Germans). On the other hand, Catherine herself was actually a Prussian princess.

    One problem with keeping track of it in history is that Germany wasn't known as Germany for most of its history. Sometimes it was called Prussia or other names. Mercenaries from that region were often called Hessians. It was really just a loosely aligned group of smaller states, rather than an actual country, depending on who you asked.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany...ion_and_Empire

    Even in modern times, the country has very different names in different languages. I think only English speaking people call it "Germany". German people them self call it Deutschland. In Spanish it's Alemania.
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    Catherine the Great came to power shortly after her husband had humiliated the Russian military by ceasing hostilities when they were just about to defeat the Prussians (Germans).
    Probably you mean Seven Years war. In this war Russia was adversary of Prussia, but an ally of Saxony who are also Germans. During 17-19-th centuries Russian Empire often changed relations with Prussia and they switched from allies to adversaries to allies again. For example during Napoleonic wars Prussia was enemy of France. After Napoleon defeated them they had been forced to ally with him. But in 1812-1815 when Napoleon started to experience hardships Prussia allied against Napoleon again. Within months of the collapse of the Third Coalition, the Fourth Coalition (1806–07) against France was formed by Prussia, Russia, Saxony, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. The Seventh Coalition (1815) pitted the United Kingdom, Russia, Prussia, Sweden, Austria, the Netherlands and a number of German states against France. Napoleonic Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Had a student from Belgium, who lived with us for five months (two over contract, what a delight), and interesting thing to me, as I had never thought about this, though my family is from Slovenia.....SHE MAJOR DETESTED GERMAN'S...and she made it quite clear at the airport. I was rather taken aback...but then reading history..makes sense..
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    I know the Kievan Rus were considered to be vikings in many accounts, and looked at the slavs as being a different people from themselves, but then they also colonized the area, so one might consider that people in Ukraine and Russia would have a lot of viking blood in them.
    Vikings, of course, were the pure blooded master race according to Nazism. Tall, blonde hair, blue eyes. (Which of course Hitler didn't exactly exemplify himself, nor do quite a number of German people.)
    According to anthropologist Coon who lived in the mid of 20-th century: "On the whole, the Slavic racial type, as exemplified by skeletal series from Poland, Germany, Bohemia, Austria, and Russia, was reasonably uniform. In view of its geographical location, the Polish group probably represents most nearly the original form, while those who expanded southward and westward absorbed local Keltic and other Indo-European-speaking populations. The Slavs, like all the other Indo-European-speaking peoples whom we have been able to trace, were originally Nordic, and there is no suggestion in their early remains, in the regions studied, of the numerically predominant brachycephalic racial increments which today are considered typically Slavic. However, the Slavs who migrated to southern Hungary, like the Germanic Gepidae before them, mixed with a local short-statured, broad-faced, and broad-nosed brachycephalic people, who, antedating the historic arrival of the Magyars, were descended from the central Asiatic Avars.109 Most of the Slavs retained their original dolichocephalic cranial form until at the earliest the thirteenth, and the latest the fifteenth, century. At that time, those who inhabited Russia and central Europe grew progressively brachycephalic, at a rapid but consistent rate. Well-documented series from Bohemia and the Moscow government show how this change progressed from century to century, so that normal means of 73 to 75 rose as high as 83 by the nineteenth. Few Slavs were spared this change, which was parallel to that which affected the southern Germans and other peoples of central and eastern Europe. Although it took place in the full light of late mediaeval and modern history, no one fully satisfactory explanation has vet been offered."
    The Slavs who invaded Styria between the seventh to ninth centuries are basically the same as those in Germany, and fall very close to an older Keltic mean.107 They formed, without question, a mixed group and included in their number a minority of round-headed forms. Some of the Slavic crania from Styria, recalling the Polish prototype, are extremely large and powerful. We have, unfortunately, no data with which to trace the further progress of the southern Slavs into the Dinaric mountain stronghold, and thence into Old Serbia and the Kossovo plain. We rnay, however, study a third Slavic movement, that which penetrated Russia.108

    "The skulls of these invaders belong to a generalized Nordic form, with a cranial index of 75 to 76, and an intermediate vault height. The Ukrainian skulls from the eighth to the ninth centuries A.D. do not greatly diverge from this general standard, but the early Slavic crania from the Moscow region in Russia, dated from the eleventh to twelfth centuries A.D., are, in fact, almost purely dolichocephalic, with a mean cranial index of 73.5." http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI7.htm
    Last edited by Stanley514; July 24th, 2013 at 04:15 AM.
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    There's also a cultural issue called the "East-West Gap" Where, for a long time, major cultural and scientific changes appeared to wait approximately 200 years to reach Eastern Europe after being introduced in Western Europe.

    Stalin, for all his evils, actually did a lot to modernize the states of the Soviet Union, and bridge the gap technologically. I don't know think it could be said that he did much to bridge it culturally, however.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Rus'#Influence_on_Rus.27_societ y

    The various countries are still largely run by despots. Sometimes with a thin guise of democracy, which only slightly covers an overt and obvious mafia influence in the background.

    I don't think a genetic admixture would do any harm at all to Western Europe. (Might even improve things.) But a cultural mixing would be categorically detrimental. Eastern Europe is still at least 50 years behind Western Europe. Probably by 2063, Eastern Europe will be as good a place to live as Western Europe is now. ..... And Western Europe will improved enough to have raised its standards above that again.


    It's just like running in a foot race. You have to run faster than the person in front of you if you want to catch up. If you just run at the same speed as them then you'll always be behind. To earn Western Europe's respect, Eastern Europe will need to catch up and overtake. Build a great society, and then Western Europeans will be the ones applying for, and being denied, immigration visas to get into the East.
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    major cultural and scientific changes appeared to wait approximately 200 years to reach Eastern Europe after being introduced in Western Europe.
    I would be glad if they would name some technology in concrete.
    Sometimes with a thin guise of democracy, which only slightly covers an overt and obvious mafia influence in the background.
    Which countries could completely avoid this cliché? And what exactly do you mean as "a mafia?"
    To earn Western Europe's respect, Eastern Europe will need to catch up and overtake.
    To overcome the gap is not completely impossible, I think. There were countries in the history, for example Japan, who managed to overcome economic gap with Western countries. I think in order to become richer Eastern European countries need to produce something valuable and in large numbers; and in times of globalisation this "something" should be highly competitive on the world market. Unless they are going to develop "Autarky" that was proposed by some. The question is: what could it be? Honestly I do not know. The world market seem to be highly competitive and oversaturated now. I do not think that countries like Ukraine would be able to beat Intel in quality of PC processors, Chinese in speed and cheapness of their labour and Southern countries with their tropical weather and bananas. There should be some special way found for them. Some Central European countries such as Czech rep. or Slovakia are claimed to open branches of German car producers and produce cars by German technologies. Slovakia now went on the first place in the world by numbers of cars produced per capita. I do not know how well does it work for their economy in whole, since unemployment remains quite high and poverty issues as well. In order to become rich some country should not only sell their workforce but desirably become owner of enterprises on its own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    major cultural and scientific changes appeared to wait approximately 200 years to reach Eastern Europe after being introduced in Western Europe.
    I would be glad if they would name some technology in concrete.
    Sometimes with a thin guise of democracy, which only slightly covers an overt and obvious mafia influence in the background.
    Which countries could completely avoid this cliché? And what exactly do you mean as "a mafia?"
    To earn Western Europe's respect, Eastern Europe will need to catch up and overtake.
    To overcome the gap is not completely impossible, I think. There were countries in the history, for example Japan, who managed to overcome economic gap with Western countries.
    Yes. Japan is definitely the country to learn from. They're very much unique in the world's history.




    I think in order to become richer Eastern European countries need to produce something valuable and in large numbers; and in times of globalisation this "something" should be highly competitive on the world market.

    It's debatable whether that's even how Japan did it. My understanding was that they mostly operated independent of world trade, with high tariffs, self sufficiently, and waited until their industries had matured before they tried to sell anything abroad. But I could be wrong about that.

    Ukraine has a disadvantage because it must buy its natural gas from Russia. That forces it to export something. However Ukraine also has an advantage over many other countries because it can produce all its own food without needing to import food.



    Unless they are going to develop "Autarky" that was proposed by some. The question is: what could it be? Honestly I do not know. The world market seem to be highly competitive and oversaturated now. I do not think that countries like Ukraine would be able to beat Intel in quality of PC processors, Chinese in speed and cheapness of their labour and Southern countries with their tropical weather and bananas. There should be some special way found for them. Some Central European countries such as Czech rep. or Slovakia are claimed to open branches of German car producers and produce cars by German technologies. Slovakia now went on the first place in the world by numbers of cars produced per capita. I do not know how well does it work for their economy in whole, since unemployment remains quite high and poverty issues as well. In order to become rich some country should not only sell their workforce but desirably become owner of enterprises on its own.

    You're doing a good job of articulating why Globalization will never help the third world to achieve a greater destiny. You need protectionism, in order to nurture your industries while they're still getting up and going. A young corporation cannot compete against an older corporation, just like how a 5 year old child cannot compete against a grown man. But if you shield them long enough to allow them to achieve adulthood, and then put them to the test, then it becomes a competition between a young man and an old man. There's a good chance the young man wins.

    The older corporations get bogged down by tradition. That's their weakness. But their strength is that they already have momentum.

    So people in poorer countries need to start seeing globalization for what it is. It's a means for the wealthier countries to prevent newer and younger corporations from ever gaining enough momentum to endanger their aging, tired corporations.
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    well Slovenes feel themselves better than other balkanoides... (well everyone heard about Balkans...) while they are extacly the same.. but they distinct from them...
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post


    You're doing a good job of articulating why Globalization will never help the third world to achieve a greater destiny. You need protectionism, in order to nurture your industries while they're still getting up and going. A young corporation cannot compete against an older corporation, just like how a 5 year old child cannot compete against a grown man. But if you shield them long enough to allow them to achieve adulthood, and then put them to the test, then it becomes a competition between a young man and an old man. There's a good chance the young man wins.

    The older corporations get bogged down by tradition. That's their weakness. But their strength is that they already have momentum.

    So people in poorer countries need to start seeing globalization for what it is. It's a means for the wealthier countries to prevent newer and younger corporations from ever gaining enough momentum to endanger their aging, tired corporations.
    That... is not quite right.

    There are aspects of globalization that do not contribute to growth in the third world, yes. However there are many more advantageous effects that globalization has on third world countries than negative contributions.

    I don't want to derail the current topic but I feel it is important to point that out!


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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    well Slovenes feel themselves better than other balkanoides... (well everyone heard about Balkans...) while they are extacly the same.. but they distinct from them...
    Really? None of my family here or there feels that way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    well Slovenes feel themselves better than other balkanoides... (well everyone heard about Balkans...) while they are extacly the same.. but they distinct from them...
    Really? None of my family here or there feels that way.
    they trying not to be associated with Balkan(the bad guy)
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    well Slovenes feel themselves better than other balkanoides... (well everyone heard about Balkans...) while they are extacly the same.. but they distinct from them...
    Really? None of my family here or there feels that way.
    they trying not to be associated with Balkan(the bad guy)
    They were a part of Austria-Hungary originally. They don't consider themselves Balkans. Never have. Why Slovenia is not the Balkans | The Economist
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    They were a part of Austria-Hungary originally. They don't consider themselves Balkans. Never have. Why Slovenia is not the Balkans | The Economist
    Strange, but in the beginning of 20-th century Slovenes didn't seem to feel themselves an organic part of Austro-Hungary. Instead they started struggle for independence from Austro-Hungary and creation new state of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. The Slovene People's Party launched a movement for self-determination, demanding the creation of a semi-independent South Slavic state under Habsburg rule. The proposal was picked up by most Slovene parties, and a mass mobilization of Slovene civil society, known as the Declaration Movement, followed.[58] This demand was rejected by the Austrian political elites; but following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the aftermath of the First World War, the National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs took power in Zagreb on 6 October 1918. On 29 October, independence was declared by a national gathering in Ljubljana, and by the Croatian parliament, declaring the establishment of the new State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.
    On 1 December 1918 the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs merged with Serbia, becoming part of the new Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it was renamed the Kingdom of Yugoslavia . Slovenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They were under German and Austrian rule for a while, but who are they linguistically and ethnically? Not a part of a Slavic world?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They were a part of Austria-Hungary originally. They don't consider themselves Balkans. Never have. Why Slovenia is not the Balkans | The Economist
    Strange, but in the beginning of 20-th century Slovenes didn't seem to feel themselves an organic part of Austro-Hungary. Instead they started struggle for independence from Austro-Hungary and creation new state of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs. The Slovene People's Party launched a movement for self-determination, demanding the creation of a semi-independent South Slavic state under Habsburg rule. The proposal was picked up by most Slovene parties, and a mass mobilization of Slovene civil society, known as the Declaration Movement, followed.[58] This demand was rejected by the Austrian political elites; but following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in the aftermath of the First World War, the National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs took power in Zagreb on 6 October 1918. On 29 October, independence was declared by a national gathering in Ljubljana, and by the Croatian parliament, declaring the establishment of the new State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.
    On 1 December 1918 the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs merged with Serbia, becoming part of the new Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes; in 1929 it was renamed the Kingdom of Yugoslavia . Slovenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They were under German and Austrian rule for a while, but who are they linguistically and ethnically? Not a part of a Slavic world?

    My family is Slovenian. BOTH parents. I grew up among, not just Slovenians, but Croatians, Dalmations, mostly.

    History*|*slovenia.si
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    I guess that if Serbia now would be richer than Slovenia, many Slovenians would tell on every corner that they and Serbs are practically the same nation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I guess that if Serbia now would be richer than Slovenia, many Slovenians would tell on every corner that they and Serbs are practically the same nation.
    Actually no one likes the Serbians. Fact. No Slovenian. No Dalmation. No Croatian. That goes back to way before the 1940's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I guess that if Serbia now would be richer than Slovenia, many Slovenians would tell on every corner that they and Serbs are practically the same nation.
    Actually no one likes the Serbians. Fact. No Slovenian. No Dalmation. No Croatian. That goes back to way before the 1940's.
    this is afterwards talk...
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    I guess that if Serbia now would be richer than Slovenia, many Slovenians would tell on every corner that they and Serbs are practically the same nation.
    Actually no one likes the Serbians. Fact. No Slovenian. No Dalmation. No Croatian. That goes back to way before the 1940's.
    this is afterwards talk...
    They still don't like them.
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    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
    even their name says they are Slavic... they talk Slavic... they are Slavic... (afcourse there are also Austrians Italians hungars..)
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    even their name says they are Slavic... they talk Slavic... they are Slavic...
    They also look mostly Slavic at least much more Slavic on average than German, Italian etc.
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    Hello to all.

    Somehow i stumbled across this topic and i couldn't resist to say something. When Babe talked about slovenes you might correct me slovenians tho it's the same. Believed or no they are considered to be slavs, their language belong to the south slavic branch tho it also resembles some of west slavic traits. Due to this language classification they also classified the nations so they are slavs. Long history connected with west and middle Europe (Mostly due to Habsburgs rule) made their culture different compared to the rest of the south slavs and slavs in general. And the fact that no one likes serbia c'mon people who would say something. Yes there are some people who don't but in general there is no hatred towards any nation. In fact slovenia is one of the most peaceful countries and also open minded towards LGBT and many other things. And the fact that someone would shoot you or be angry if you say to him that he is slav, well i'll laugh on this one whole day. No offence to babe but some stuff you are saying are just plane wrong.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    well this idea of pan slavism and ilirism didn't fall on fertile soil in Slovenia. So there is no strong connection to other slavs. I been traveling across Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Bosnia and Serbia and have to say they always say hey brothers when u mention from where you are. Tho to me it seems so wrong what brothers?

    enjoy!
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  74. #73  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    [
    I understand the cultural sensitivities in that part of the world, and no offence to you or your mum (who, I am sure, is lovely ... when she isn't carrying a gun) was intended.
    Explain, please, how the totally extraneous condition of "carrying a gun", detracts from someone's physical attractiveness. jocular
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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by therainyday View Post
    Hello to all.

    Somehow i stumbled across this topic and i couldn't resist to say something. When Babe talked about slovenes you might correct me slovenians tho it's the same. Believed or no they are considered to be slavs, their language belong to the south slavic branch tho it also resembles some of west slavic traits. Due to this language classification they also classified the nations so they are slavs. Long history connected with west and middle Europe (Mostly due to Habsburgs rule) made their culture different compared to the rest of the south slavs and slavs in general. And the fact that no one likes serbia c'mon people who would say something. Yes there are some people who don't but in general there is no hatred towards any nation. In fact slovenia is one of the most peaceful countries and also open minded towards LGBT and many other things. And the fact that someone would shoot you or be angry if you say to him that he is slav, well i'll laugh on this one whole day. No offence to babe but some stuff you are saying are just plane wrong.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    well this idea of pan slavism and ilirism didn't fall on fertile soil in Slovenia. So there is no strong connection to other slavs. I been traveling across Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Bosnia and Serbia and have to say they always say hey brothers when u mention from where you are. Tho to me it seems so wrong what brothers?

    enjoy!
    *smile*....raised by Slovenian parents, one born and raised....and I have family there...I have been there .son just visited....you can believe what you wish.....however, you weren't raised there (as my mother was and father's parents) and no offense. I stand by what I said.

    AND the Slovenians and the Croatians and the Dalmatians do NOT like the Serbians.
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    [/QUOTE] *smile*....raised by Slovenian parents, one born and raised....and I have family there...I have been there .son just visited....you can believe what you wish.....however, you weren't raised there (as my mother was and father's parents) and no offense. I stand by what I said.

    AND the Slovenians and the Croatians and the Dalmatians do NOT like the Serbians.[/QUOTE]

    I was born there and i still live there and apart from really small percentage (usually immigrants from times of yugoslav war and not all of em either) no one hates serbs why would they...dont know your family but to me it seems a bit odd in this sense that they talk about how they dont like them. On the other hand croatia has some more complex story about it...
    And if your family is mix-croatian one than i can understand why you are claiming that... tho you have to know that new generations see things differently.
    Anyway as it seems we are going off topic here my point is just to stress out that we can't claim that the whole nation dislikes someone just on personal opinion.no offence
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  77. #76  
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    *smile*....raised by Slovenian parents, one born and raised....and I have family there...I have been there .son just visited....you can believe what you wish.....however, you weren't raised there (as my mother was and father's parents) and no offense. I stand by what I said.

    AND the Slovenians and the Croatians and the Dalmatians do NOT like the Serbians.[/QUOTE]

    I was born there and i still live there and apart from really small percentage (usually immigrants from times of yugoslav war and not all of em either) no one hates serbs why would they...dont know your family but to me it seems a bit odd in this sense that they talk about how they dont like them. On the other hand croatia has some more complex story about it...
    And if your family is mix-croatian one than i can understand why you are claiming that... tho you have to know that new generations see things differently.
    Anyway as it seems we are going off topic here my point is just to stress out that we can't claim that the whole nation dislikes someone just on personal opinion.no offence [/QUOTE] NO offense taken. However, I am not your generation, nor were my parents. I'll take this up with my cousins, who were born and raised there and their children also to see if that is still the case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
    And to which group of nations you associate themselves with? Or you feel completely unique and unrelated? Germanic? Romance?..
    Antislavery
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  79. #78  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
    And to which group of nations you associate themselves with? Or you feel completely unique and unrelated? Germanic? Romance?..
    Austria.

    I just visited this summer.
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
    And to which group of nations you associate themselves with? Or you feel completely unique and unrelated? Germanic? Romance?..
    Austria.

    I just visited this summer.
    Germans?? That's strange, but Austrian ultra-right seem to be worry of you. For example:

    "The border with the former Yugoslavia may be gone, but it's still very much there in people's minds. German-speaking Carinthians are really afraid of the Slovenians. They simply do not want to communicate with them," says Dominic Egger, a 24-year-old baritone.
    The rise of the Austrian far right is also worrying Slovenia, which can be reached by driving a few kilometres over a mountain pass where the formerly heavily guarded border posts now stand empty. "I simply do not understand their politicians," says Jure Zerjav, the mayor of Kranjska Gora, a neighbouring Slovenian town. "They are always trying to dig up old problems and trying to talk up how dangerous the Slovenian minority is. The current economic crisis is only making things worse."
    Modern-day Von Trapps fight Austrian far right - Europe - World - The Independent

    Slovenians do not look to me on average like stereotypical Germanics. More like stereotypical Slavic. For example this is some Slovenian politicians: Alenka Bratušek (The same form for Helen is used only in Russia and Belarus). A current prime minister. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenka_Bratu%C5%A1ek



    Danilo Türk A former president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danilo_T%C3%BCrk



    Borut Pahor - a current president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borut_Pahor

    Last edited by Stanley514; October 10th, 2014 at 05:34 AM.
    Antislavery
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    They still don't like them.
    And whom Slovenian do like? What is their relation to other Slavic nations at least?
    Pretty much averyone else. They aren't Slavic....if you noted my URL.

    History*|*slovenia.si

    this might give you a better idea on the history of my families country. I have many aunts, uncles, and cousins there still My son just visited them.
    And to which group of nations you associate themselves with? Or you feel completely unique and unrelated? Germanic? Romance?..
    Austria.

    I just visited this summer.
    Germans?? That's strange, but Austrian ultra-right seem to be worry of you. For example:

    "The border with the former Yugoslavia may be gone, but it's still very much there in people's minds. German-speaking Carinthians are really afraid of the Slovenians. They simply do not want to communicate with them," says Dominic Egger, a 24-year-old baritone.
    The rise of the Austrian far right is also worrying Slovenia, which can be reached by driving a few kilometres over a mountain pass where the formerly heavily guarded border posts now stand empty. "I simply do not understand their politicians," says Jure Zerjav, the mayor of Kranjska Gora, a neighbouring Slovenian town. "They are always trying to dig up old problems and trying to talk up how dangerous the Slovenian minority is. The current economic crisis is only making things worse."
    Modern-day Von Trapps fight Austrian far right - Europe - World - The Independent

    Slovenians do not look to me on average like stereotypical Germanics. More like stereotypical Slavic. For example this is some Slovenian politicians: Alenka Bratušek (The same form for Helen is used only in Russia and Belarus).


    My mother is 90 years old.

    Born, raised and lived through WWII in Slovenia.

    Your comments are political. Mine are historical.

    I'll take her history lessons and those of my family who were born and live there, and have for centuries over yours.

    Thanks for your interest in my family.
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