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Thread: July 1914

  1. #1 July 1914 
    Forum Ph.D.
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    I am reading a book with that title, which describes how WW I got started. It appears that no one wanted a big war, but the leaders of the countries involved, particularly Germany, Austria, and Russia, made a series of missteps and miscalculations.

    Was there any other major war (at least in relatively modern history) that started this way?


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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Um, WWII was also a miscalculation.
    Hitler expected that his invasion of Poland would be accepted as a fait accompli, Chamberlain (and, to some extent, Daladier) seriously underestimated Hitler's ambitions.
    I'd think it would be easier to list the number of wars that got started deliberately 1, as opposed to miscalculations and missteps.

    1 Not that any spring immediately to mind.


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  4. #3  
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    why hitlers ambitions? surely somebody had to let hitler lead
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    I have this conjecture that "all wars could have been prevented if different courses had been taken (different forks in the road) prior to the outbreak of war."

    Hitler might never have come to power if the Allies, after WW1, hadn't been so tough on Germany, beating the Germans over the head with the Treaty of Versailles. The reparations that Germany was forced to pay were one of the main causes of the super inflation that occurred.
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    We're getting away from WWI just now, but Hitler was "elected" as Chancellor. So he gained legitimacy as a leader.

    Never forget that he was as dishonest with the German population as he was with everybody else.

    As for WWI starting. The beginning was a whole lot of simultaneous, confused power plays gone wrong. And they finished up with a war - but it wasn't like any war they'd ever had before. If they'd thought about it at all, they probably expected it would be like a few Crimean wars all at once.
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    Hitler might never have come to power if the Allies, after WW1, hadn't been so tough on Germany, beating the Germans over the head with the Treaty of Versailles. The reparations that Germany was forced to pay were one of the main causes of the super inflation that occurred.
    Quoted for truth.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    so they made life terrible for the german people and expected they to do nothing in return. So they formed an army and defended themselves
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiveworlds View Post
    so they made life terrible for the german people and expected they to do nothing in return. So they formed an army and defended themselves
    From what I can gather, after the 1st WW Germany had to pay a massive debt for the war to UK and France leaving themselves broke. Hitler steps up and gets everyone working later resulting in his biggest mistake, going after the name - Starlingrad.
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    Missteps and miscalculations – The Korean War springs to mind, when China decided to get involved in the war.

    I think the Allies under General MacArthur pushed too close to the Chinese border. That bad miscalculation was a game changer for the war and why we still have a North Korea.
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  11. #10  
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    My comments:

    WW II: Hitler wanted to be master of Europe, so he kept grabbing pieces (Rhineland, Austria, Czechoslovakia) with Poland next, until Britain and France had enough. Also the Pacific war developed similarly, with Japan trying to overrun China.

    Korean War: The war was ongoing, so MacArthur's attempt to get rid of North Korea may have been a tactical error, but that didn't start the war.
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    Well I mean, there aren't many wars that were as big as this in the first place..
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Korean War: The war was ongoing, so MacArthur's attempt to get rid of North Korea may have been a tactical error, but that didn't start the war.
    I understand the Korean war was effectively over and won for the Allies but for the Chinese perspective it was just the beginning of the war for them.

    The general consensus is that the beginning of World War II is considered to have started in 1939 but for Japan and China it started, I think, in 1937 and for the USA it started in 1941.

    The beginning of a war can be seen as a point of regional perspective, is what I’m trying to get at here. But I take your point, because it’s not what started North Korea invading the South.
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    Was there any other major war (at least in relatively modern history) that started this way?

    The most recent Gulf war, when the international community failed to recognize that much of Saddam Hussain's reluctance to allow thorough inspections and their results reported openly to the world was to maintain face and continue to appear as a viable deterrence for Iran. Of course Hussian's mistake is underestimating the American response. He lost that game of chicken.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Was there any other major war (at least in relatively modern history) that started this way?

    The most recent Gulf war, when the international community failed to recognize that much of Saddam Hussain's reluctance to allow thorough inspections and their results reported openly to the world was to maintain face and continue to appear as a viable deterrence for Iran. Of course Hussian's mistake is underestimating the American response. He lost that game of chicken.


    My imnpression of the (second) Gulf war was that many of Bush's advisors wanted the war - the USA deliberately started it, using mythical WMD as an excuse. The policy was a blunder, but the start was not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    My imnpression of the (second) Gulf war was that many of Bush's advisors wanted the war - the USA deliberately started it, using mythical WMD as an excuse. The policy was a blunder, but the start was not.
    Truth! The USA has become an international bully.
    Last edited by PumaMan; May 9th, 2013 at 06:14 PM.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    My impression of the (second) Gulf war was that many of Bush's advisors wanted the war - the USA deliberately started it, using mythical WMD as an excuse. The policy was a blunder, but the start was not.
    Truth! The USA has become an international bully.
    I think had become, not has become. Obama's reaction to the Syrian civil war indicates a strong reluctance to get involved militarily.
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    10 years prior to the fall of Saddam Bush senior sent 'The jackals' and the negotiators in to control more or Iraq's wealth but Saddam said do one and built an army to defend his country, and slaughter the innocents for order.

    Who knows what really happened, I wasn't there and this can quickly verge on conspiracy.
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    Personally, I feel one would be hard pressed to find a sorrier set of blunders and miscalculations leading to war than Vietnam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhanegan View Post
    Personally, I feel one would be hard pressed to find a sorrier set of blunders and miscalculations leading to war than Vietnam.
    There is a significant distinction between WW I and Vietnam.

    The major powers in WW I were not looking for a major war. The only war contemplated was Austria punishing Serbia.

    The Vietnam war started out as the US deliberately trying to prop up the South Vietnamese government. When the gulf of Tonkin "incident" took place, it was a handy excuse for Pres. Johnson to make it into a full scale war.
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    The cause of WWI was four empires glaring at each other while rattling sabres and building alliances for mutual assistance. The tension were such that war was almost inevitable.

    The trigger, as opposed to the cause, was the assassination of the Grand Duke Ferdinand by a Serbian nationalist. The Austro Hungarian Empire demanded that Serbia turn over the assassin. Since Serbia did not know who the assassin was, they could not. Austro Hungary decided that was a good excuse to assimilate Serbia, and invaded. Serbia, though, was an ally of the Russian Empire and asked for help. When the Austro Hungarians found they were up against Russia, they asked their ally, the German Empire, for help. The Germans thought they might as well assimilate Belgium, while they were at it. The Belgians asked their ally, the British Empire for help. And in the middle of all that mess, the Ottoman Empire decided to go in on the Austro Hungarian side, since they had designs on more of the Middle East.

    After it was all over, the three losing empires were dismantled.
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