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Thread: informal sources

  1. #1 informal sources 
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    Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj was born of an illicit relationship between a Muslim Pir and Jijabai
    There is much truth to the above claim as I have found out. No reliable information on Chatrapati exists as those of his period hated him. We find no biographer who has sketched Shivaji successfully. However one has to admit that he was a great King although the circumstances of his death are doubtful.


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  3. #2  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Most members will be ignorant of this important figure in Indian history. Would you agree that the wikipedia entry would be a good introduction? Are you sure that there are no favourable contemporary reports on him?


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    Some of the things told in Wikipedia are not true.My sources confirm that Shivaji was born from an illicit relationship between a muslim Pir and Jijabai. Contrary to what wikipedia has said there were no "Maratha clans" in Maharashtra(Deccan) before Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. The 96 families which were then present around Pune and who accepted "illegitimate" Shivaji were then called "96 Maratha Clans" or in native language of Maharashtra "Shahannav Kuli Maratha".
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  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Wikipedia is not faultless. What sources do you have that contradict the version given in wikipedia?
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    I have been given this information from a select group of people who hold the secrets of Shivaji. These people are well connected in the government. It seems these secrets were revealed to a few people. I accidently came across this group. The information though is 100% accurate. Only these secrets can explain some historical facts I would mention in my next discussion.
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  7. #6  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    You will understand that when an anonymous person comes onto an internet forum and declares that they have information from a secret group of people, that the appropriate thing to do is completely dismiss that information. Unless you have a way of verifying and validating that information to the reasonable satisfaction of your readers then it is largely pointless to post it.

    Many persons post absolute nonsense, yet do so with great confidence, assuring their readers it is true. On a science forum that is not acceptable. I doubt it is acceptable on a history forum. If you want to be taken seriously you need to provide justification for any assertions you make.
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    I am afraid people give in to populism and propoganda. I expected a better response from you O Moderator. The history of Shivaji has been manufatured by Hindu fanatics to fill the hearts of hindus with pride that they did not fail in front of the Muslim armies but fought them successfully and with honour. The truth is somehow compromised. I will surely produce the facts in this case eventually.
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  9. #8  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    You quite miss the point. By insisting that assertions be backed up by evidence we avoid the dangers of populism and propoganda. At present what you have posted smacks of propoganda as it lacks any supporting evidence. You say this will be produced eventually. Why are you not producing it now?

    You say you expected a better response from me. Did you expect me to agree at once to your claims? Did you wish me to embrace your assertions without a shred of evidence to support them? Did you expect me to favour the unsupported word of an anonymous internet poster over the broad range of scholarly material that contradicts you? If I had done any of these things I would notdeserve to be a moderator.
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  10. #9  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    For all we know, prasad, you may not be Indian. You may be a person who dislikes Hindus and wishes to stir up rumors and distrust to discredit those you don't like. You could also be telling the truth. But we have no way of knowing either way and you have presented no justification for taking you at your word. You could be a crazy old lady in a nursing home that has never even been to India but has watched too many conspiracy theory films and has missed her anti-psychotic medicines.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    Infact my political views were far right before knowing about Shivaji. But after reading books like Sriman yogi and Raja shiv Chatrapati and really knowing about shivaji from all sources and the informal sources I concluded that Shivaji was infact born out of illicit relationship between Jijabai and a muslim peer. As he is described an eulogy and flowery language in these books. Some events are even concocted(made up). If Shivaji was so great why didnt the contemperory historians did not take any notice of him .Infact in the foreword to the book Sriman Yogi the author expresses sadness that no factually 100 percent correct material is present about Shivaji. Shivaji is only mentioned in collateral material and verything about him is known through indirect sources. We call such sources as "bakhars" in Marathi the mother tongue of Maharastrians. There are so may incidents that can be successfully explained if we consider the fact that Shivaji was an illicit child of a Muslim pir and Jijabai.












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  12. #11  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad puranik View Post
    Infact my political views were far right before knowing about Shivaji. But after reading books like Sriman yogi and Raja shiv Chatrapati and really knowing about shivaji from all sources and the informal sources I concluded that Shivaji was infact born out of illicit relationship between Jijabai and a muslim peer. As he is described an eulogy and flowery language in these books. Some events are even concocted(made up). If Shivaji was so great why didnt the contemperory historians did not take any notice of him .Infact in the foreword to the book Sriman Yogi the author expresses sadness that no factually 100 percent correct material is present about Shivaji. Shivaji is only mentioned in collateral material and verything about him is known through indirect sources. We call such sources as "bakhars" in Marathi the mother tongue of Maharastrians. There are so may incidents that can be successfully explained if we consider the fact that Shivaji was an illicit child of a Muslim pir and Jijabai.












    y
    Well good luck promoting your hypothesis without any sort of substantial evidence. You are basically going on circumstantial evidence and a hunch. I have similar suspicions about the supposed virgin birth of Jesus to Mary, and even though science backs up the suspicion that a virgin cannot produce a child, the belief that she was a virgin is so strong, I would need to find proof otherwise, and any evidence I can get my hands on would be dismissed as forgery or fake. The thing is, there isn't even any proof that Jesus ever really existed. But you are going up against belief systems and in the human mind beliefs carry more weight than facts, especially when a person's entire perception of reality is based on those beliefs.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    I know its difficult to beat the system. Lies have their own advantages.The only problem is ultimately truth surfaces and it prevails. When this happens it is very painful experience.This makes the people victims of lies. Truth may affect their anatomy as well as interests. I would have even respected the lies of the two faced government had it not been for the fact that the government remembers Shivaji as an idol never to be emulated only to be praised so that their Shivaj Super Market may survive. The only reason they want Shivaji is not out of respect for him or even love, but it caters to their arrogance and makes a handful people strong to get attention, votes in election and in politics these people make money. In my experience in this world only false respect, arrogance and false pride survives for a long time. In fact these are the very ingredients which ensure continuation of human race.
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    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    She wasn't a virgin, God had his way with her.
    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
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    Jijgabai decided to use her families influence in hiding the truth about the birth of Shivaji.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasad puranik View Post
    Jijgabai decided to use her families influence in hiding the truth about the birth of Shivaji.
    Support that with verifiable documented evidence
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    She wasn't a virgin, God had his way with her.
    I would like to read material concerning Jijabai if available. I would be grateful to you shlunka.
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  18. #17  
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    1. Are you now ready to present the evidence you spoke of three months ago?
    2. Even if what you say is true, what is its significance?
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    I would like to mention that even today authors and historians are surprised at the lack of any biographical work and lack of trustworthy material on Shivaji. It seems contemporary historians tried to ignore and undermine a leader as great as Shivaji. The 1600's were a time of religious fervour. There is one more point. The escape by Shivaji from Agra never took place as mentioned in history books and authors/historians ignore the fact that there are 100% accurate Moghul records that show that Shivaji crossed Narmada outpost of the Moghuls after declaring that he was Shivaji along with 300 selected men. Further it should be mentioned that on coronation of Shivaji as a King, Shivaji was remarried to his wives according to Hindu rituals(now this was unecessary if he was a Kshatriya(warrior) and a Hindu.There is one more fact. Contemporary Muslim rulers would not have tolerated a Hindu forming (carving) out his own territory from a Muslim territory. The Muslims were tolerant but they were not fools.The next thing is how Shivaji fought his enemies. I am reminded of a dialogue from an English movie that goes 'One who fights and runs away lives to fight another day." That is how Shivaji fought his enemies most of the time.
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  20. #19  
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    James Laine's book "Hindu king in Islamic India" is a reliable source. It mentions that Shivaji may have been born to Jijabai by a Muslim Pathan(Musla Khan Bhai).
    One can confirm this from the internet.
    Jijabai was daughter of Lakhuji Jadhav a Mahar(untouchable).
    How can a Muslim father and Untouchable mother give birth to a Maratha?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    One can confirm this from the internet.
    Because nothing on the internet is ever wrong! Confirming it using primary sources written at the time would be better...

    Jijabai was daughter of Lakhuji Jadhav a Mahar(untouchable).
    How can a Muslim father and Untouchable mother give birth to a Maratha?
    Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much... (ask your mother for the rest).
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    Neither are the Marathas ready to carry out a DNA analysis of Shivaji's progenies. We have the Maharaja of Thanjavur(who claims descent from Shahaji). We also have UdayanRaje who is considered progeny of Shivaji.
    Why, then do Marathas refuse to carry DNA analysis of Shivaji's progeny?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    One can confirm this from the internet.
    Because nothing on the internet is ever wrong! Confirming it using primary sources written at the time would be better...

    Jijabai was daughter of Lakhuji Jadhav a Mahar(untouchable).
    How can a Muslim father and Untouchable mother give birth to a Maratha?
    Well, when a man and a woman love each other very much... (ask your mother for the rest).
    Ignorant Impudence!!!!
    James Laine's book is enough of an evidence.
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  24. #23  
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    Credulous buffoonery! Beware the man of one book...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Credulous buffoonery! Beware the man of one book...
    Certainly Mr. James Laines's book is not a work of prejudice.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Credulous buffoonery! Beware the man of one book...
    Certainly Mr. James Laines's book is not a work of prejudice.
    I didn't say it was, but anyone can write a book, what are his sources? Are they reliable? Have they been corroborated? Learn to think critically!
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    I am sure DNA sampling would resolve the matter....as I have mentioned previously.
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