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Thread: Does Russia really ows something to its Western neighbours?

  1. #1 Does Russia really ows something to its Western neighbours? 
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Currently many people in Poland claim that Russia invaded Poland and blame it for Molotov-Ribentrop pact.
    I would be interested in what causes any people in Poland to claim that this did not happen. The Russian-German alliance was not the cause of the invasion, but the means by which it could be implemented. Hitler's desire for Lebensraum and Stalin's wish for a buffer zone were the principle causes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    Official Polish mass media draws sign of equality between Nazi`s and Soviet occupation.
    Since both were illegal and involved the brutal subjugation of a sovereign people it seems reasonable to draw a sign of equality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    By Soviet occupation they mean, of course, those territories which now constitute Western Ukraine and Belarus.
    Even if we do not discuss history of those Eastern Polish territories, I think that every clever leader on place of Stalin
    would prefer to capture at least part of Polish posessions and secure its own borders than allow Hitler to conquer all of Poland. If Hitler would capture Eastern Polish territories then he would gain one more decisive advantage in WWII and it would be more easy for him to launch attack against USSR.If Hitler would win this war then Poles would almost certainly doomed as a nation.Moreover as a result of war Poles gained territories to the West probably event larger than those that were populated by Ukrainians and Belorussians.It was Stalin who generously granted them with a new territories.So what is a reason to regret?
    Because their country was ripped apart and its people brutalised.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    .If Hitler would win this war then Poles would almost certainly doomed as a nation.Moreover as a result of war Poles gained territories to the West probably event larger than those that were populated by Ukrainians and Belorussians.It was Stalin who generously granted them with a new territories.So what is a reason to regret?
    So, because Russia saved them from the Germans, it's ok for the Russians to treat them just slightly less badly than the Germans?

    And of course, Russia did this for them out of the goodness of its heart, right? Not because it needed Poland for strategic reasons?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:45 PM.
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    The Russians eventually admitted responsibility for the Katyn Forest massacres carried out by the NKVD under the direct command of Stalin's client Lavrenti Beria.
    I don't know how important the admission was: maybe they suddenly discovered a liking for confessing to crimes they didn't commit!
    Last edited by Halliday; September 29th, 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:46 PM.
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    Stanley I understand that English is not your first language. Therefore it is possible that you did not say what you appear to say, but were instead attributing it to the Poles. However, we will not tolerate violent racist language on this forum. You may apologise to the forum on a new thread when you return from your three day holiday.

    In case you are not clear what I am speaking about it is this sentence. "While Russians who have nothing in common with Poles ethnically or even racially are animal who should be slaughtered. "
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:47 PM.
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    Thank you Stanley. Part of the problem was the slightly ambiguous English that led me to think you were expressing these thoughts. Had I understood what you meant I would not have imposed the ban. My misinterprettion was pointed out to me by Kojax (thanks again) and I apologise to you for what I now see was an over-reaction. Thank you for accepting the situation so positively. Moderators are human too and therefore capable of error.
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:47 PM.
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    For Stanley514. Iwas about 6 years of age when the second world war started. Even in Outback Australia news of the War was eagerly sought and openly discussed at odd times. Great History and Geography lessons for a child at that time.
    Yes. We felt sorry for the Polish People.
    After the war when I was working in a large Rural City in Australia I worked with two Polish Refugees. They had been recruited after the Invasion of Poland to work in German Slave Factories on German War Production.
    I received more History Lessons Here.
    I came to the conclusion then, and still hold the belief today, that Democracy as we know it in the traditional European Nations was preserved by the Death of 25 Million Civilians, Combat Soldiers, and other Peoples making up the USSR. It was the blood of these people who defended their Countries against the German Juggarnaut that eventually allowed Western Europe to Prosper and get on with their lives.
    Whatever the motives were after the breakup of the German Nation at that time towards the Polish People by the Russians, nobody came out squeaky clean. I am well aware that some of the greatest atrocities committed by men on men were carried out on Polish soil.
    You mention the murders of Polish People. Did you also mention the murder of the Jewish Poles?
    I didn't see Warsaw mentioned.
    I also followed the Trade Union Movements and the Dock Workers unrest against the occupying regime. And the gradual freedom they were allowed to rally support for their cause of freedom for the Polish people and Nation.
    I do not use Wikipedia or the Internet for information. I leave that for others.
    Any knowledge I am able to express comes from first hand sources, Biographies, History, and recorded history from war footage. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:48 PM.
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    For Stanley514. Just Google up "" The Warsaw Ghetto "".

    If I strayed too far from your original Thread then please accept my apology. ( I apologise ). However, there appears, from what you posted, to be a Policy shift through your Polish Media Outlets to down play some aspects of Events that occurred during the 2ndWW.

    My interest centres around personal accounts, some first hand, ( I have held the hand(s) that have a serial number tattoo on the lower arm), rather than any re-interpretation of War History as it actually happened.

    As for modern defensive nuclear Installations located here and there someones scratching their arse. It is a form of propergander to reintroduce an us against them philosophy.

    Polands Friends, and if you will have it, enemies, depends on the good face of Poland as it progresses into the 21/22 Centurys.

    This will not occur unless the correct interpretation of Polands History appears uncorrupted for all the World to see.

    One thing I admit still puzzles me. Poles were mainly Catholics during the 2ndWW.?

    Ican't help wondering that a Catholic Nation, admittadely with a large Jewish population, was left to suffer the ravages of war without too much fuss being made. Now, I ask myself, I again wonder who really was steering the Ships of Destiny? And what was the desired aggenda, or end result that was sought throughout Western Europe, with the exception of one or two Nations?

    You will not need a lot of imagination here. But let us now put and end to what was a sad, mad, episode in moderm mans progress to a fairer, less ideological driven future, where Nations do not meet behind closed doors to the exclusion of other Nations, greedily rubbing their hands together in the expectations of the spoils stolen from other peoples. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  15. #14  
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:48 PM.
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    Dear Stanley514. You seem able to take an objective view when noticing Current Affairs and the bias that may be displayed by some groups of citizens within the Media. It concerns me a little if there is no balance in Opinions and Reporting.

    What now is to be gained by Poland in dwelling in the Past?

    Poland has fought so hard for its independance. Is there now a lack of confidence in the future.? This backward turning will only bring grief and condemn Polish Citizens to poverty.

    Education & Food Production should be on the minds of the Polish People.

    I sense that the Monkey on the Back of the Polish Nation is a perceived concept of inferiority.

    And just maybe this is understandable.

    Look to your Current leadership. Study their programme and the direction it will take Poland in the coming years.

    Its the Future that belongs to Poland now. Don't drop the Ball. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:48 PM.
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    If Poles have got time to go to the Movies to watch such rubbish I would like them to think about what they are doing.

    To be seen in a movie house that shows degrading rubbish would suggest to me that those people aRE ALREADY DEGRADED THEMSELVES.

    I'm trying to see the noble side of all Polish People.

    Is there a noble side?

    Or are we reading about a lower class of Pole in your Postes?

    Is there an identity problem with some Poles?

    Your Postes make me sad. No talk of Modern Heros leading the Nation onwards and upwards.

    I'm out of this Thread unless there's heaps of positive information about what's going to happen when Poland emerges as a great Future Nation with something positive to offer the World. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:49 PM.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanley514 View Post
    By the way, name ``Ukraine`` is derieved from Polish word ``okraina`` (borderland).This is how Poles used to call their borderland territories.
    Yet now knowledge of some Poles about Ukraine is limited to things that some Polish guy expressed on a forum.He believes that:
    ``all Ukrainians are in sexual love with Bandera`` and is a ``wild, criminal nation``. All he knows about history of Ukraine is that ``some bandits lived there`` and after ``some Polish and Russian deserters and criminals escaped there``. He also wrote that he pays ``not even slightest respect to Ukrainians``.
    Unfortunately, he forgot to mention what Polish and other feudals and agressors managed to do to Ukrainian nation for the last 600 years.It is a miracle that Ukrainins at least survived at all.



    Ukraine is strongly associated with the Cossacks, and that is basically a good description of what the Cossacks were. They ran around and pillaged all the surrounding areas. Not all were criminals, though. Some were just escaped peasants looking for a better life without owing allegiance to a lord.

    In one of the Polish movies, an evil Ukrainian ( who sexsually persecuted and kidnapped Polish woman) tells to her that if she will not give to him sexual favour he will find her fiance,will cut skin from him and will through it to her legs.The lady falls senseless.
    What could think Polish children,for example, when they see such a scenes?


    You must understand that the Red Army didn't treat Poland very much better than it treated Germany. They plundered their cities, raped all their women in huge mass rapes.

    Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki Article
    There were cases of mass rapes in numerous Polish cities taken by the Red Army, (see Rape during the liberation of Poland). In Kraków, the Soviet entry into the city was accompanied by mass rapes of Polish women and girls, as well as the plunder of private property by Red Army soldiers.[citation needed] This behavior reached such a scale that even Polish communists installed by the Soviet Union were preparing to send a letter of protest to Joseph Stalin himself, while church masses were held in expectation of a Soviet withdrawal
    The film was very likely based on this guy. He wasn't Ukrainian. He was Georgian, but he was a major player in Soviet government and was infamous for using his power to kidnap and force women to sleep with him.

    Lavrentiy Beria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Last edited by Stanley514; September 6th, 2017 at 10:49 PM.
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    I'm curious where you are from Stanley. You mentioned you are not from Ukraine. Why are you so interested in it?

    I agree that you are right that they need to be allowed to leave their past behind them, especially since they suffered worse under the USSR regime than most anyone else anyway, going through Stalin's famine. I don't understand what you mean by Ukrainians supporting closer ties with Russia? I don't think Ukraine cares to have any more to do with Russia than it already has. If they wanted that, a good start would be to re-establish Russian as their official language, or even make it a second official language (since many Ukrainians don't even know how to speak Ukrainian.)

    Eastern Europe is just a sad case of a bunch of nations who all victimized each other, or were victimized by Russia (which was also busy victimizing itself.) The Western European nations, on the other hand, have for a very long time treated one another with a certain dignity and respect. Even after Germany's total defeat in WW2, the UK, USA, and France, all freely returned their share of the conquest back to the German people so they could rebuild.

    If Eastern European nations were as quick to forgive past grievances as the Western European nations are, Western Europe's power would be small compared to theirs.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    It's just the way things are remembered. Who remembers events? The people who survived them, or the people who didn't survive them? Most Nazi attrocities involved rounding people up and killing them. Maybe torturing them first, raping them, sending them to concentration camps...... but most of them ended up dead.

    The Russian army, on the other hand, mostly left its victims alive. The fall of Berlin is remembered as a being a strong contender to be the single largest mass rape in all of human history. Most of the German men were dead or out fighting, and so the city was basically full of nothing but women and children, and probably less than half of them managed to avoid getting taken aside by a drunk Russian soldier. In some cases it was done systematically, with the husbands and fathers forced to stand by and watch.

    Their mistake in terms of public relations/memory is they didn't kill their victims. Some even asked to be killed, and many went on to commit suicide, but the soldiers mostly spared peoples' lives, leaving them with the humiliation. If they'd killed them, the memory would (mostly) die with them. But they didn't so how can you expect a group of people who have endured such trauma and survived it not to talk about it and remember it?

    Anyway, Germany has made no shortage of apologies. Maybe they just think it's Russia's turn to make a few?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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