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Thread: Hitler's Death

  1. #1 Hitler's Death 
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
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    Alright, so before I even get this started... This was the subject on Coast to Coast AM a couple nights ago, that obviously means we're all taking this with a bag of salt. The following is what was laid out:

    1) Hitler did not commit suicide
    2) Hitler took on a fake identity of one Dr. Poch
    3) Hitler used the ratline to get to Argentina, briefly, and then went on to Indonesia - where he lived out the rest of his life, dying much later in the year 1970.

    The following has been claimed as evidence, but is clearly circumstantial:

    There isn't really any proof (that I know of) that Hitler died at the Berlin bunker - the skull with the bullet hole in it isn't actually Hitler's (this happens to be true) Death of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    * Eva Braun's skull maybe (or obviously?)

    Photographs of Dr. Poch look eerily similar to Hitler, and Dr. Poch was apparently noted as a Nazi. When I google this, two photos of 'Dr. Poch' come up, one kind of looks like it's photoshopped (or a painting??). The black/white one, to me, is easily recognisable - if somebody cued me for hitler.

    Briefly after Poch's death, the Soviets dug up Hitler's remains, and cremated them. So, what this guy is claiming, is that the Soviets did this to avoid embarrasment after somehow finding out about this Poch character.

    * The Photos
    dr. Poch | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

    UNIQUE EXPLORER: HITLER IS ISLAM IN END OF HIS LIFE?

    Anyway, to avoid making this too lengthy. The claims made by the guy on C2C definitely seemed a little... Fishy. What I am interested in is the following:

    There are no photos of a dead hitler, the bodies were burnt before the Soviets got to the Berlin Bunker.. What do you think? Did he die the way we historically know, or do you think he may have escaped? And please, do your best to punch holes into this guy's claim.. Since it was on C2C it has to be false, or at spreading the facts way too thin. I just thought it might be an interesting topic.


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    This is just my idea in believing in goverment. Hitler died after commiting suicide. I don't believe everything I am told, but even if he did survive and became Dr. Poch it doesnt matter. He is dead now and I doubt he did anything else much after.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWS1179 View Post
    This is just my idea in believing in goverment. Hitler died after commiting suicide. I don't believe everything I am told, but even if he did survive and became Dr. Poch it doesnt matter. He is dead now and I doubt he did anything else much after.
    I definitely am skeptical about the claims, but I think it would matter if we had it wrong this whole time. Even if it's just for the sake of having it right.
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  5. #4  
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    There's pretty good vid evidence that he had Parkenson's desease...even if he didn't commit suicide it's quite unlikely he made it to 1950.
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  6. #5  
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    my mother's last husband had been a german soldier during ww2

    he was convinced that hitler survived

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  7. #6  
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    If he survived, he would have been sickly and miserable for the rest of his life, which is a worse fate.
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    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  8. #7  
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    There were eyewitnesses to the burning of the bodies.

    Death of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    That photo , if it's real, bares a hell of likeness to hitler.
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  10. #9  
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    Don't think it's real.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    There were eyewitnesses to the burning of the bodies.

    Death of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Eyewitnesses definitely raise suspicions, but at the same time I don't think the possibility of them lying is inconceivable - that's one of the things I'm stuck on, whether the truth was being told, or if it was just a way to get everyone to think he's dead.

    And also, I just realised, the skull fragment originally believed to be Hitler's cannot possibly be Braun's (As she never shot herself).

    @ Chrisgorlitz/KALSTER

    Depends on the picture... The Black/White one look like it's a 'real' picture - but is it Poch, or is it a manufactured picture? Or is it just some dude?

    The one that looks like it is kind of has Sepia Tone (the one where he's wearing a white suit) is without a doubt a fake picture - I had a weird feeling about it, but wasn't sure. Now I am. I found the same picture except 'Hitler' was wearing your typical Nazi Uniform, it's only a com-gen image of what somebody thought he might look like if he were to have lived. My apologies for posting that one.

    @ Lynx

    Too true, I didn't think about that - there's no way Hitler would've been faking something like that as early as the '30s, it would only make him look weak, and it would be kind of preparing for defeat that early.

    I did some research on Parkinson's after you brought it up, turns out it also causes abdominal/digestive problems, which might be related to his diet as a vegetarian (unless he had always been a vegetarian). But, just to play Devil's Advocate a tiny bit, I also found this link that states a Parkinson's patient can expect to live to a pretty ripe age - then again, what's the chance Hitler had resources as good as these patients would've had? Especially since he probably would've needed the quality of care we have now.

    People with Parkinson’s Have Normal Life Expectancy - Parkinson's Disease Foundation (PDF)

    @ KALSTER:

    Yeah, it would've been difficult to manage a secret life on top of his health issues. You're probably right about it not being a life worth having. Lynx also has a good point that he wouldn't have survived much longer if he hadn't killed himself, let alone making it to 1970.
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  12. #11  
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    Hitler would not of left Berlin. The city was surrounded
    He would not leave because he would not accept defeat
    he felt betrayed by even his closest advisers. Who could he trust. So I could not see Hitler Running away.
    the only things he loved in life. he had killed or put to sleep his Dog, so after that why would he want
    to run away, and hide. Don't think it was his way.
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  13. #12  
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    There is a lot of suspicion about the remains that are considered to be Hitler perhaps not really being his remains, but you know there's another possibility for that. Maybe Operation Valkyrie (where a bomb was detonated in the planning room where he was at a meeting) succeeded in killing him, and his advisors simply pretended he was alive for the rest of the war. The official story is that he was merely injured like some of the others in the room who had survived the explosion, and had to have lots of splinters pulled out of his legs. However the only really strong evidence of his survival was him getting on the telephone and calling all of his generals to assure them he was alive. But he could easily have died of complications from his injuries a short time after those phone calls.

    I suspect that in the last days of the fall of Berlin, those advisors simply found some guy and killed him to make it look like Hitler's body.

    And of course, another possibility is that maybe he evacuated a long time prior to the siege of Berlin, and his advisors simply made it appear he had remained in order to control the chaos. I'm not sure the man was really as brave as he let on.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    There is a lot of suspicion about the remains that are considered to be Hitler perhaps not really being his remains, but you know there's another possibility for that. Maybe Operation Valkyrie (where a bomb was detonated in the planning room where he was at a meeting) succeeded in killing him, and his advisors simply pretended he was alive for the rest of the war. The official story is that he was merely injured like some of the others in the room who had survived the explosion, and had to have lots of splinters pulled out of his legs. However the only really strong evidence of his survival was him getting on the telephone and calling all of his generals to assure them he was alive. But he could easily have died of complications from his injuries a short time after those phone calls.

    I suspect that in the last days of the fall of Berlin, those advisors simply found some guy and killed him to make it look like Hitler's body.

    And of course, another possibility is that maybe he evacuated a long time prior to the siege of Berlin, and his advisors simply made it appear he had remained in order to control the chaos. I'm not sure the man was really as brave as he let on.
    Interesting thoughts, but the remains are without a doubt someone else's. In 2009 they discovered that they are actually the remain's of a woman, and the projected age is 20-40. This might suggest Eva Braun, however, in the official version of the events: Eva Braun did not shoot herself, and died entirely by use of a capsule.

    The skull fragment in question has a bullet hole in it, so either Eva Braun had indeed shot herself, or the remains belong to some other woman.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I'm not sure the man was really as brave as he let on.
    His performance in World War I and in the rough and tumble of Munich beer halls suggests otherwise.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    There is a lot of suspicion about the remains that are considered to be Hitler perhaps not really being his remains, but you know there's another possibility for that. Maybe Operation Valkyrie (where a bomb was detonated in the planning room where he was at a meeting) succeeded in killing him, and his advisors simply pretended he was alive for the rest of the war. The official story is that he was merely injured like some of the others in the room who had survived the explosion, and had to have lots of splinters pulled out of his legs. However the only really strong evidence of his survival was him getting on the telephone and calling all of his generals to assure them he was alive. But he could easily have died of complications from his injuries a short time after those phone calls.

    I suspect that in the last days of the fall of Berlin, those advisors simply found some guy and killed him to make it look like Hitler's body.

    And of course, another possibility is that maybe he evacuated a long time prior to the siege of Berlin, and his advisors simply made it appear he had remained in order to control the chaos. I'm not sure the man was really as brave as he let on.
    Have you seen the interviews with Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge, who was with him in the bunker? I don't see any reason why she would keep lying about it for decades afterward.
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  17. #16  
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    There are obviously some signs of a cover-up regarding what happened to Hitler. Why are these signs appearing? We are supposed to believe the official story about it. But not so fast; the official story should suffer the questioning that is fit for such a suspicious narration. Here is a possibility to consider:

    Hitler communicated with the Soviets shortly before the defeat of the Nazis. This communication might have been initiated by either the Soviets or Hitler. Hitler would agree to stop leading the Nazi forces, making it easier for the Soviets to defeat the Nazis. In exchange for this agreement, Hitler would be given a promise of safety, and also a promise to help him change his identity and escape to live somewhere else. Falsely claiming his death could be the method used to fulfill this purpose; this would give Hitler a 'relief', and he would be able to move more comfortably. In this case, both parties have something to gain, as we can see- the Soviets can reach victory more easily, and Hitler would be safe from arrest and imprisonment, and possibly execution.

    If this indeed happened, it would serve to explain the apparent Russian involvement in the cover-up. If Hitler was their enemy, what reason would they have to give untrue information about the story of his death? They might have had an agreement with him as mentioned.
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  18. #17  
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    I thought they semi-recently found a part of his scull.

    edit:

    DNA test shows Hitler skull is that of a woman | News.com.au

    ADOLF Hitler may not have died in a bunker after fresh research suggests the skull thought to be the tyrant's was from a woman.

    US archaeologist Nick Bellantoni found fragments from the skull believed to be Hitler's were too thin to be from a male, and suspected it was the remains of a much younger woman
    Never mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam123 View Post
    Hitler would agree to stop leading the Nazi forces, making it easier for the Soviets to defeat the Nazis.
    Your conspiracy theory will have to include evidence that the Germans actually did quit fighting early, and you will also have to explain why all the surviving staff of the Fuhrerbunker would carry their secret to the grave.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam123 View Post
    Hitler would agree to stop leading the Nazi forces, making it easier for the Soviets to defeat the Nazis.
    Your conspiracy theory will have to include evidence that the Germans actually did quit fighting early, and you will also have to explain why all the surviving staff of the Fuhrerbunker would carry their secret to the grave.
    As far as the Germans quitting the fighting early, I don't have evidence for that. But it could be that Hitler purposely lead his forces ineffectively so they could be defeated. The surviving staff could have remained silent because they agreed to do that. They might even face legal trouble if it turned out that they previously lied about Hitler's death. Anyway, good evidence could be difficult to get in a conspiracy theory.

    On Wikipedia, it says:

    "Records in the Soviet archives—obtained after the fall of the Soviet Union—showed that the remains of Hitler, Braun, Joseph and Magda Goebbels, the six Goebbels children, General Hans Krebs, and Hitler's dogs, were repeatedly buried and exhumed.[310] On 4 April 1970 a Soviet KGB team with detailed burial charts secretly exhumed five wooden boxes which had been buried at the SMERSH facility in Magdeburg. The remains from the boxes were thoroughly burned and crushed, after which the ashes were thrown into the Biederitz river, a tributary of the nearby Elbe."
    Link: Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So it seems that the Soviets were paranoid about something. They repeatedly exhumed and buried the remains. And then in 1970, about 25 years after Hitler's supposed death, they burn the remains. So what was their reason for taking such actions? Maybe some or all of the wooden boxes were empty? We just cannot let this one go.
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  21. #20  
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    I just did a few minutes of Google research, on this subject.
    I (believe) that Dr. Poch's full name is, "dr. georg anton poch" from Indonesia.


    But Dr. Poch is (not) even listed in wiki.
    And I was also surprised, how I could (not) find any biography or history of Dr. Poch.

    It (maybe) appears, that the only sources that list information on Dr. Poch, are sources like those, who state "UFO's create crop circles." But since I have seen humans create crop circles, with sticks and rope on TV, I do not fully trust these sources.


    Also, the following could be a coincidence. But if you click the link, in this threads first post, that shows Dr. poch's/Hitlers picture.
    Or this (same) copy/pasted link bellow,

    dr. Poch | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


    And if you look to the right on that page. You will see smaller pictures, with the option to see other pictures. If you click the picture, to the left of Dr. Poch's, that picture (appears) to me, to be a picture of US president Barack Obama, dressed up in a dictators uniform (it appears to be a fake picture?)



    With the lack of information listed about Dr. Poch. And with his picture, appearing next to a (fake?) picture of Barrack Obama. It just makes me wonder, if this is a 100% fabricated hoax?

    Many people purposely make fake video of UFO's, and then say they are real, ex. ex. ex.
    I wonder if this is a similar hoax/act ?

    But I personally think that it would be interesting, to find out the truth, about who Dr. Poch really was.
    A legitimate biography of Dr. Poch would be a nice start.


    This is a interesting thread,
    Chad
    Last edited by chad; July 9th, 2012 at 12:21 AM.
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  22. #21  
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    It is interesting how Dr. Poch's reported death was in the same year as digging up Hitler's remains and burning them. Both happened in 1970. If Dr. Poch's skull was analyzed and it turned out to be Hitler's, it could have been embarrassing for some people.

    And Dr. Poch being in Indonesia could be the reason that his biography is not that well-known. He was a doctor in a poor country like Indonesia. That could explain it. Hitler could have went to Indonesia because it is a low-profile country also.
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  23. #22  
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    Read _Ratline_. In it, Levenda makes some strange comments which he doesn't bother to cross reference or critique. The ones that stick out in my mind are:

    1. The Poch diary purports to say that they were having problems with repeated CIC (Allied Counter Intelligence, then on the hunt for Nazis under every rock) interviews in relation to their work on Jewish populations in the Netherlands Transit Camps as well as Poch's prewar work with the euthanasia of mentally retarded people. Assume that this is 1945 Hitler and not an emaciated ghost of himself, why wouldn't the CIC recognize him?

    Indeed, why would he return home to Southern Austria where there could be living colleagues who -could- recognize him? The first time CIC, quite legitimately, asked him for a background reference (to check his word as his identity) he would be sunk _even if_ the CIC's eyes didn't literally bug out of their face at first sighting.

    This is particularly important because Levenda goes on to make several references to The National Redoubt (a cave complex that was actually in south eastern Germany, centered on the Thuringia Walde and the Driecks, not Austria) which were in fact cave complexes which, if functional, -might- have allowed Hitler to remain completely hidden from the population, rather than being 'warned by a Jew' that he was about to be exposed.

    Given that Levenda makes the assertion, towards the end of the book, that the real Poch couple were likely murdered for the benefit of Hitler and now lie buried 'under the reduit' (Redoubt) there is no way to make the argument that the Pochs were first real and then later identity thefted.

    2. Why would General Krebs and The Goebbels (both of whom had had arms-length familiarity with Hitler for years) choose to commit suicide in the company of body doubles? That is taking the concept of 'die hard' a little far.T

    This is of further importance when you consider the two escape options which Hitler had: First to cut all ties, take the escape ladder from his study and disappear with only the most minimal of 'conspiracy support' to rapidly burn the bodies. Such only works if you think he could clear the Soviet encirclement of Berlin and in particular make it across the bridges then occupied by the Russians, on his own. Hitler was supposedly a near-invalid at that point, kept going only through massive doses of amphetamines but it should be noted that earlier in the war, he had been a serious walker who took daily morning and evening constitutionals at the Eagle's Nest. That his valet, personal pilot and adjutant could be broken under torture and still reveal the plan doesn't mean much -provided- he can leave the immediate environs of Germany in the 24-36 hours that a man can be expected to last under serious torture.

    Which is were the second aspect takes over. If you've ever read 'Critical Mass' it purports to cover the escape of Martin Bormann, 'The Brown Eminence' under similar circumstances. And specifically to suggest that he called back a U-Boat to make his escape. Levenda suggests something similar with reference to a 'small seaplane' landing on a river and taking off for Denmark. Not realizing that a small seaplane of the period would be something like the Dornier Do.18- Germany's Dornier Do 18 reconnaissance flying boat - World War II Vehicles, Tanks, and Airplanes both because a _military_ asset would be the only one with fuel and because it would have to be this size to realistically accomodate both Hitler and Braun over any distance. To a U-Boat rendezvous in the Kiel canal or to Norway (still under Nazi occupation) or to Spain. The three most likely destinations.

    What I am saying is that Hitler may have been wise to leave the bunker by his own means to limit the risk of exposure of his escape plan (or attempts to join it) by those soon to be captured by Soviet troops. But he would then absolutely NEED the help of his armed forces to effect an escape from Germany itself. And (following the inverse square law) the more people who know a secret...

    Additionally-

    A. I find it hard to believe what the History Channel episode on Youtube suggests-

    Hitler's Death - The Final Report - Part 1 of 5 - YouTube

    Namely, that none of the living relatives of Hitler were willing to give up a DNA sample. It doesn't even need to be acknowledged from whom or even /if/ it happened. Much as the Bin Laden family doesn't officially acknowledge (to a names and places level of cooperation) that they have given DNA to match to UBL. This alone would prove much in terms of comparison to the (male) DNA sourced to the sofa. Suggesting that at least 'some Hitler' had bled there. Money should be no obstacle in this.

    B. It's not altogether likely that the bones under an Islamic tombstone in Indonesia have fully disintegrated. Nor would anyone 'take if for granted' that they had. So if the tomb has not been disturbed a further effort to clear the boards, that is itself suspicious.

    C. It's altogether unbelievable that -somewhere- amongst the prewar marriage, drivers license, passport and school records (Hella Poch was a noted member of two archaeological societies associated with a given university for which she wrote numerous articles) that there is no remaining 'staff' photos. The same can be said for George Anton Poch who, though not as proliferous, was at least published and as Levenda himself suggests, the likelihood that there is a traceable line of evidence through the family name itself is high because there are NOT many such 'Pochs' among Austrians. At the least, there should be a full court press to go through whatever family (geneaological) records and momentos that might exist among the known family so that Hella aka 'Gerda' Poch could be compared with Sosrohusodo's recollections while he is still available to make the comparison.

    D. Finally, Dr. Poch would have signed numerous memos, authorizations and similar material while serving as 'Chief Medical Officer' of a hospital which he ran. There should be, in the hospital records, some compareable set of handwriting that can be matched to the samples of Hitler's that we know of. Even if the original diary is now no longer accessible in the hands of an Indonesian prince or what have you.

    That Levenda makes no attempt to even -describe- his supposed 'long efforts and much money spent' in attempting to gain such photographic or handwriting or DNA comparison sample evidence, but instead concentrates on typical conspiracy theory 'correlates of correlates' as people/agenda matching does much to render his effort compromised if not altogether refuted. _Ratline_ is frankly VERY boring because of this. Whereas a real life pursuit of the Poch lineage and their work in the Jewish Camps as well as personal interviews with those who knew these 'Pochs' after the war would have much more mileage on both the holocaust gore level and the pure forensic chase levels.

    LEG
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    Could Barack Obama be an offspring of Adolph Hitler. Was Obama,who LIVED in Indonesia as a child,BE Barry Poch?
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    Please show me the Picture referenced that said it resembled Obama.
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    I have just come across this thread and would like to respond to the comments made by Lop Eared Galoot, in the order in which they were made.
    1. As I suggested in Ratline, I do not know if the Poch diary was written by Poch or by Hitler. In any event, remember that Hitler would have taken measures to disguise his appearance anyway. The first step would have been shaving off the mustache. Minus the mustache and the iconic hairstyle, Hitler would have looked like any other old Austrian man (as photo workups in the weeks and months after the fall of Berlin show). Also, the Poch diary specifically mentions that it was his wife who was fielding the questions by CIC; he does not say that he met with the CIC himself. CIC was obviously not looking for Hitler, nor were they particularly concerned with Poch ... That alone is an important point. As for the National Redoubt, I beg to differ: the declassified files from the war specifically state that the Redoubt was in Austria in the Salzburg area. Hanna Reitsch herself mentioned this fact when being interrogated by the Allies, as she was on her way to Salzburg when she was apprehended. I do not understand your assertion that the Pochs could not have been murdered and their identity stolen. That seems quite logical to me, given the circumstances.
    2. I did not state that Krebs and the Goebbels family died in the company of the doubles. That they committed suicide and their bodies discovered seems beyond doubt, but that they were discovered in the presence of the Hitler and Braun doubles is nowhere stated. I report the Soviet story that several trips were made to the bunker before the Hitler and Braun "bodies" were discovered. They were lumped together by SMERSH in their famous tour of eastern Germany before being buried together, but I do not state that they committed suicide together with the doubles.
    3. It is an unfortunate fact that none of Hitler's living relations will voluntarily surrender their DNA samples. It is also an unfortunate fact that the only such samples in existence were obtained unethically and without a chain of evidence that could be used in a court of law.
    4. It is also unfortunate that no photos of Hella Poch or G.A. Poch have surfaced anywhere, and I have had colleagues in Europe scouring archives searching for them. The same is true for any documentation that G.A. Poch may have signed in his official capacity as medical officer of the Salzburg Gau.
    5. Why should I have made an attempt to describe my long efforts and money spent....etc etc. when it should be fairly obvious? I traveled throughout Indonesia in the search for whatever information was available on Poch, including going to Surabaya to visit the grave, etc. I am from the Bronx, right, and live in South Florida so going back and forth to Indonesia is already money spent and long efforts made. I'm sorry that you found Ratline boring (everyone's a critic!) and I disagree that I use "typical conspiracy theory correlates of correlates" etc. as I have been at pains to separate speculation from fact in Ratline. A real life pursuit of the Poch lineage has been undertaken, and with very thin results as I stated in Ratline. My communications with anthropologists, university people, Holocaust organizations, investigators in Austria, Germany, and the Netherlands, etc have all contributed to the final product that is Ratline. I spent more than two months (Jan-March) in 2012 in the Netherlands, and was unable to come up with anything of substance more than I reported.
    I am still on the case, however, and hopefully will have more to report on this story in the near future.
    Peter Levenda
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    Hitler committed suicide with his wife and the bodies were burned. When the Russians took Berlin they found the remains and identified them by teeth, etc. Stalin deliberately withheld this information to complicate his relations with U.S. and U.K. In recent years going through Russian archives the information was unearthed.
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    The story you reference was that given by British Intelligence in September of 1945 as part of something called Operation Nursery. It was an MI6 operation, and Major Hugh Trevor-Roper was the agent assigned to "prove" that Hitler died in the bunker and the bodies burned. There has never been any forensic evidence to prove this. See the Hugh Thomas book, The Murder of Adolf Hitler, which demolishes the so-called "evidence" and my own Ratline for more details. The Russians did not identify the bodies by their teeth, but by dentures that had been made only weeks before the fall of Berlin ... in duplicate.
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    You forget he had a stealth fighter in the Horton 229... could outfly anything the enemy had at the time and may not have been picked up on radar
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    AH and his lot were masters of the spy game, he had more than one double and probably had food tasters and some who were made to share in his dental signature .... meaning forced to wear duplicate dental identification for tis very purpose, he wanted to be forgotten and beleived dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    AH and his lot were masters of the spy game, he had more than one double and probably had food tasters and some who were made to share in his dental signature .... meaning forced to wear duplicate dental identification for tis very purpose, he wanted to be forgotten and beleived dead.
    Nice story. Any evidence at all?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    You forget he had a stealth fighter
    Rubbish.

    could outfly anything the enemy
    Also rubbish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    You forget he had a stealth fighter in the Horton 229... could outfly anything the enemy had at the time and may not have been picked up on radar
    The Horton 229 was a fighter-bomber, a multi-purpose aircraft that wouldn't have been any more effective in a dogfight than the Messerschmitt Me 262. The Me 262 was a marvel for its time, but suffered reliability issues and had difficulty shooting down Allied fighters because it could not maneuver at a slow enough speed to tail them. From what I've read, the Horton 229 only had a %20 reduction in radar detection, a negligible amount. The only reason the Horton 229 could have been implemented was its capability to bomb cities while flying fast enough to get the job done before anti-aircraft measures could have been organized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    AH and his lot were masters of the spy game, he had more than one double and probably had food tasters and some who were made to share in his dental signature .... meaning forced to wear duplicate dental identification for tis very purpose, he wanted to be forgotten and beleived dead.
    Dental signature? Are you saying that someone hand-picked individual teeth identical to Hitler's own? Teeth are very idiosyncratic, hence the effectiveness of dental identification. Why would Hitler want to be forgotten? He was a man who ravenously craved fame and power, going into obscurity would have offered him neither. I suppose his wife and children also had agents that duplicated their bodies and dental records as well? Sadistic and pathological as he was, I don't believe Hitler would have given up his dreams, lost his family, just to live a few more years. I say a few more years because he had a laundry list of serious health problems, possibly a nerve disease.
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    That 20% reduction was only when facing UK defence radars - Chain Home Low.
    Against ALL OTHER contemporary radar systems there was no effective reduction.
    It would also have been less effective in a dogfight than Me 262 because, being a tail-less design, it suffered from lateral instability.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    That 20% reduction was only when facing UK defence radars - Chain Home Low.
    Against ALL OTHER contemporary radar systems there was no effective reduction.
    It would also have been less effective in a dogfight than Me 262 because, being a tail-less design, it suffered from lateral instability.
    Yeah..buuuuuuuuutttttt....it looked cool.
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    I see why you guys silence cranks now. It feels...great.
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    Top stealth-plane experts have re-created a radical, nearly forgotten Nazi aircraft: the Horten 2-29, a retro-futuristic fighter that arrived too late in World War II to make it into mass production. (See Hitler's stealth fighter in pictures.) The engineers' goal was to determine whether the so-called stealth fighter was truly radar resistant. In the process, they've uncovered new clues to just how close Nazi engineers were to unleashing a jet that some say could have changed the course of the war.


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    To replicate the Ho 2-29 late last year for a documentary premiering Sunday, a team from the Northrop Grumman defense-contracting corporation used original Nazi blueprints (see re-created blueprints of Hitler's stealth fighter) and the only surviving Ho 2-29, which has been stored in a U.S. government facility for more than 50 years


    link:"Hitler's Stealth Fighter" Re-created
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    Doesn't do anything to support your contentions.
    Plus, of, course, the other slight problem with the aircraft was that it wasn't even in production, let alone service.
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  41. #40  
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    Or possibly escape?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    Or possibly escape?
    Escape through the perimeters of vigilant allied soldiers and flee from Europe, a country where almost every citizen knows his face?
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    only needed one to escape, another for the US to find and transport back to US

    San Diego Air & Space Museum - Balboa Park, San Diego

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    a jet that some say could have changed the course of the war.
    "Some say"?
    The only people that could say that with a straight face would be those without a single clue of the realities.
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    Does look cool!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    only needed one to escape
    Whut?
    In the deadliest air defence environment that had ever existed up to that point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    only needed one to escape, another for the US to find and transport back to US

    San Diego Air & Space Museum - Balboa Park, San Diego

    While not related to the discussion. I really hope that such an inventive relic of war is rebuilt.
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    It has been!
    The replica was donated to San Diego Air and Space Museum.
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    good point, but no-one is insisting he fled in a westerly direction, I might have flown north or even at the junk in the east
    perhaps our friend levenda might be able to find out if AH personal pilot had training in the Horton or other wunderwaffe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    good point, but no-one is insisting he fled in a westerly direction, I might have flown north or even at the junk in the east
    perhaps our friend levenda might be able to find out if AH personal pilot had training in the Horton or other wunderwaffe
    You're basing further speculation on initial baseless assumptions.
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    never mentioned before, but totally relevant check out the recreation pretty cool:Horten Ho 229 - Full Scale Replica By Northrop (In 2009) For Radar Cross Section (RCS) Testing - YouTube
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    Plan to read Ratline, sounds very interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    perhaps our friend levenda might be able to find out if AH personal pilot had training in the Horton or other wunderwaffe
    Ah, so you're contending that Hitler's personal pilot might have escaped, not actually Hitler.
    That's possibly more plausible.

    PS the so-called Wunderwaffe were, by and large and almost exclusivley, money and resource-hogging crackpot ideas.
    They were brilliant concepts - for the Allies: they massively hindered the German war effort.
    They soaked up time, effort and resources that would have been better employed spent making weapons that worked.
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    Are you implying that a duplicate set of dentures could not have been used in a corpse, rather the charred remains of a corpse with the intent of deceit? Would stop looking long enough if you ask me.... bigger fish to fry at that moment/time period. Remember they were not teeth but denture or artificials.
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    Well, we know there were at least two of the Horton 229's made 1) the v2 crashed during test flight and 2) the v3 was sent back to England and then to Maryland.

    There were others including a two seater meant for night flying (the v6). The U.S. VIII Corps of General Patton's Third Army found the Horten 229 prototypes V3 through V6 at Friedrichsroda in April 1945. Horten had designed airframes V4 and V5 as single-seat night fighters and V6 would have become a two-seat night fighter trainer.

    So we have a concept of a two seater night flying stealthy jet fighter. Contention is the personal pilot and Georg Anton Poch had a means to an end.
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    Speed and Night flying ability would aid an escape. Hurricaine 340mph, Spitfire 357mph, P-51 Mustang 487 mph, Horton 229 - 620mph with a rnge of 620miles (remember the Goring requirement of 1000kilo payload, 1000km range, and speed of 1000km/hr).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    There were others including a two seater
    Planned but not built.

    So we have a concept of a two seater night flying stealthy jet fighter.
    One more time: it wasn't stealthy.
    And no-one flies out of the country (any country) in a concept.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josey View Post
    Speed and Night flying ability would aid an escape. Hurricaine 340mph, Spitfire 357mph, P-51 Mustang 487 mph
    Bwahaha.
    If you're going to "quote" performance figures you could at least give contemporaneous ones - i.e. all from the same period in time.
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  59. #58  
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    I think it makes sense that, if Hitler wasn't willing to kill himself, his closest advisers probably wouldn't have been able to bring themselves to do it for him. Suicide is kind of a coward's death, and it's possible Hitler would have gone all bravado about it and refused to.

    So failing possibility #1, his advisers might have needed to resort to another possibility #2, and drug him so they could get him out of there. Maybe they believed the Nazi dream would hold on if only Hitler were alive somewhere. Or maybe they thought it could rise again at a later time. Maybe they just didn't want to show disloyalty to the dream that they'd held so dear for so long.



    Also I'm not sure how much credible evidence exists that he was really in Berlin when it was captured. His advisers might have been saying he was there when he wasn't? Such is politics.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lop Eared Galoot View Post
    2. Why would General Krebs and The Goebbels (both of whom had had arms-length familiarity with Hitler for years) choose to commit suicide in the company of body doubles? That is taking the concept of 'die hard' a little far.T
    They'd have done it for the same reason Hitler allegedly did it: to escape capture.


    C. It's altogether unbelievable that -somewhere- amongst the prewar marriage, drivers license, passport and school records (Hella Poch was a noted member of two archaeological societies associated with a given university for which she wrote numerous articles) that there is no remaining 'staff' photos. The same can be said for George Anton Poch who, though not as proliferous, was at least published and as Levenda himself suggests, the likelihood that there is a traceable line of evidence through the family name itself is high because there are NOT many such 'Pochs' among Austrians. At the least, there should be a full court press to go through whatever family (geneaological) records and momentos that might exist among the known family so that Hella aka 'Gerda' Poch could be compared with Sosrohusodo's recollections while he is still available to make the comparison.

    D. Finally, Dr. Poch would have signed numerous memos, authorizations and similar material while serving as 'Chief Medical Officer' of a hospital which he ran. There should be, in the hospital records, some compareable set of handwriting that can be matched to the samples of Hitler's that we know of. Even if the original diary is now no longer accessible in the hands of an Indonesian prince or what have you.

    I think you're ignoring the possibility that Dr. Poch might have been chosen for the simple reason that he already bore a strong facial resemblance to Hitler.
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    If Hitler did commit suicide.. Would that make him a good man for killing Hitler.
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    He may be a Hell Spawn now:

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    I know if I was on the run, trying to hide my identity....I'd be sure to keep my same hairstyle, and iconic mustache that I was known for.
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    "the opera ain’t over until the fat lady sings." - Ralph Carpenter
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    Just got to remember that Hitler's inner circle were kind of "drinking their own cool-aid" so to speak, toward the end of the war. I think they may have actually believed Germany was going to achieve "final victory" even after the Russians had started rolling through their Eastern borders. But failing that, they might have believed that the Nazi thing would rise again if they could get Hitler out.

    Maybe they thought that, by falsifying his death, they'd be giving Hitler the time and opportunity he needed to escape. And then it didn't occur to them that the allies would jump on the false suicide, publicize it, and effectively make it "true". I mean, politically true. If everyone thinks Hitler is dead, then the icon is genuinely dead. The man may still be alive, but there's no way he can "resurrect" the icon. Nobody would believe him.

    Also they probably didn't take into account just how unpopular Hitler would go on to become after the war. They probably thought the German people would continue right along worshiping him as their savior (And I'm not sure they ever even did that - but I bet he thought they did.)
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