Notices
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 136
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Pre-Columbian American - European contacts.

  1. #1 Pre-Columbian American - European contacts. 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    Other than Norsemen around 1000 AD and somewhat after, is there any evidence of contact between Europeans and American natives?

    In a book I am reading, the author asserts (I don't see any proof) that, for at least 100 years before Columbus, European (mainly Basque) fishermen were fishing and also whaling off the coast of North America from Maine to Newfoundland. I checked (Google) various sources - they mention this possibility, but with great skepticism. Basque fishermen did operate in the area from about 1500 onward, but there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence of earlier operations.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    2,848
    Yeah, color me skeptical too. Without some evidence, I'm unconvinced.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    It only works as a quasi-conspiracy theory: any group of fishermen with knowledge of the lucrative Grand Banks would rather contain the secret, perhaps believing they alone had this advantage over competing fishers. But gold rushes and fur trades prove Europeans couldn't keep such secrets. Contrast the well-guarded mysteries of black tea and silk.

    Anyway the influence of some Basque fishermen upon North American Natives would be insignificant, because they'd have been equally illiterate and nearly so barbaric.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    Other than Norsemen around 1000 AD and somewhat after, is there any evidence of contact between Europeans and American natives?

    In a book I am reading, the author asserts (I don't see any proof) that, for at least 100 years before Columbus, European (mainly Basque) fishermen were fishing and also whaling off the coast of North America from Maine to Newfoundland. I checked (Google) various sources - they mention this possibility, but with great skepticism. Basque fishermen did operate in the area from about 1500 onward, but there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence of earlier operations.
    There is plenty of evidence for Pre-Columbian Europeans (minus the "Vikings") in America.

    Lets discuss one possible piece of evidence at a time, starting with the The Windover Bog People of Florida (8,000 years old).
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Why are they evidence of Europeans?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Why are they evidence of Europeans?
    There are two very simply pieces of evidence to understand concerning the Windover Bog People. First, their skeleton and cranial remains/structure/measurements are Caucasian. Secondly, the Florida Bog Peoples mtDNA haplogroup X2 is from the Near East.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    What journal articles are you citing for these assertions?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What journal articles are you citing for these assertions?
    The DNA evidence: "X2 is spread widely throughout West Eurasia." "Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs derive from X2." "Altaian and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster." "the Near East is the likely geographical source for the spread of subhaplogroup X2."

    Concerning the skulls that information comes from those who work or have worked with the remains.
    Last edited by gonzales56; February 21st, 2012 at 07:33 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?

    Not sure this supports your interpretation: "Moreover, Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs form a clade distinct from that of West Eurasians and with coalescence time estimates varying widely depending on both the method of estimation and the number of assumed founders. Thus, the coalescence times ranged from 12,000–17,000 YBP to 23,000–36,000 YBP, times that are consistent with both a pre- and a postglacial population diffusion (Brown et al. 1998)."

    I know a fair bit about lateen sail, which the Basque used. They are fantastic and efficient in trade wind areas where you seldom have to tack. They are quite cumbersome in squally weather with many wind shifts and wouldn't have been suitable for the North Atlantic. I also don't think the Basque had any ships really large enough for regular transatlantic journeys. If a Basque ever got as far as North America it probably was my accident, bad luck and would have been a one way trip.

    Also, is any early contact consistent with spread of pathogens and depopulations patterns in North America? It always stunned me that New England colonist found cleared lands which they took as Davine Providence when in fact they were witnessing the remains of much larger farming population shattered from diseases of European contacts just a few decades before.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Why are they evidence of Europeans?
    There are two very simply pieces of evidence to understand concerning the Windover Bog People. First, their skeleton and cranial remains/structure/measurements are Caucasian. Secondly, the Florida Bog Peoples mtDNA haplogroup X2 is from the Near East.
    Also there's the fact they were discovered wearing clothing that appears to come from textile. That doesn't "absolutely-to-infinity-certain-beyond-all-hope-of-doubt!!!!!" prove anything, but it does strongly suggest an old world origin.

    http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/bog/clothing1.html


    http://www.nbbd.com/godo/history/windover/


    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?
    I believe Gonzalez was attempting to expand the discussion to include all forms of prehistoric contact between the old world and the new world.


    Also, is any early contact consistent with spread of pathogens and depopulations patterns in North America? It always stunned me that New England colonist found cleared lands which they took as Davine Providence when in fact they were witnessing the remains of much larger farming population shattered from diseases of European contacts just a few decades before.
    Just have to remember that in the old days before infectious disease was very well understood, people tended to think that all diseases were acts of divine providence or punishment.
    Starmon likes this.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?

    Not sure this supports your interpretation: "Moreover, Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs form a clade distinct from that of West Eurasians and with coalescence time estimates varying widely depending on both the method of estimation and the number of assumed founders. Thus, the coalescence times ranged from 12,000–17,000 YBP to 23,000–36,000 YBP, times that are consistent with both a pre- and a postglacial population diffusion (Brown et al. 1998)."
    Mathman asked about contact between "European" peoples and "Native" Americans before Columbus (excluding the Vikings). He cited the Basque people as being mentioned in a book as an opinion, however, I thought other "European" peoples in America pre-Columbus was on topic. If I am wrong then I apologize.

    The information you posted concerning the X haplogroup supports perfectly what you are calling my interpretation. The only distinctions/differences between haplogroup X in Native Americans and Haplogroup X in West Eurasia and Europeans is the fact that mutations and changes have occurred in both of them since the carriers of Haplogroup X left their peoples/lands in the Near East / West Eurasia and went to the Americas.
    Last edited by gonzales56; February 21st, 2012 at 03:20 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Why are they evidence of Europeans?
    There are two very simply pieces of evidence to understand concerning the Windover Bog People. First, their skeleton and cranial remains/structure/measurements are Caucasian. Secondly, the Florida Bog Peoples mtDNA haplogroup X2 is from the Near East.
    Also there's the fact they were discovered wearing clothing that appears to come from textile. That doesn't "absolutely-to-infinity-certain-beyond-all-hope-of-doubt!!!!!" prove anything, but it does strongly suggest an old world origin.

    Archaeology Magazine - Bodies of the Bogs - Clothing and Hair Styles

    Windover Bog People Archaeological Dig - Titusville Florida

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?
    I believe Gonzalez was attempting to expand the discussion to include all forms of prehistoric contact between the old world and the new world.


    Also, is any early contact consistent with spread of pathogens and depopulations patterns in North America? It always stunned me that New England colonist found cleared lands which they took as Davine Providence when in fact they were witnessing the remains of much larger farming population shattered from diseases of European contacts just a few decades before.
    Just have to remember that in the old days before infectious disease was very well understood, people tended to think that all diseases were acts of divine providence or punishment.
    The Archeology Magazine article is to the wrong bog people, Kojax, those are from European sites.

    The Windover link talks of fabric woven from native plants. Im not sure where the textile assertion is coming from, so no there isn't the proof your are asserting.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What journal articles are you citing for these assertions?
    The DNA evidence: "X2 is spread widely throughout West Eurasia." "Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs derive from X2." "Altaian and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster." "the Near East is the likely geographical source for the spread of subhaplogroup X2."

    Concerning the skulls that information comes from those who work or have worked with the remains.
    Thing is, the paper you have cited dos not refer to the Windover find at any point that I can find. So again, what is the source your assertion that the Windover people are European?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?

    Not sure this supports your interpretation: "Moreover, Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs form a clade distinct from that of West Eurasians and with coalescence time estimates varying widely depending on both the method of estimation and the number of assumed founders. Thus, the coalescence times ranged from 12,000–17,000 YBP to 23,000–36,000 YBP, times that are consistent with both a pre- and a postglacial population diffusion (Brown et al. 1998)."
    Mathman asked about contact between "European" peoples and "Native" Americans before Columbus (excluding the Vikings). He cited the Basque people as being mentioned in a book as an opinion, however, I thought other "European" peoples in America pre-Columbus was on topic. If I am wrong then I apologize.

    The information you posted concerning the X haplogroup supports perfectly what you are calling my interpretation. The only distinctions/differences between haplogroup X in Native Americans and Haplogroup X in West Eurasia and Europeans is the fact that mutations and changes have occurred in both of them since the carriers of Haplogroup X left their peoples/lands in the Near East / West Eurasia and went to the Americas.
    So you proposing that contact more than 12,000 year ago? That's what the paper you put posted concludes--the part I quoted. If not how can you say it supports your idea?
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    In my humble opinion there is no way Europeans or anyone else could cross the Atlantic to America 12000 years ago - they didn't have anything like ships. If there is a DNA connection it presumable came from diffusion through East Asia and Alaska. Since that connection (according to present day ideas) was bridged many times over thousands of years, relations as described by gonzales56 are quite plausible.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    The Archeology Magazine article is to the wrong bog people, Kojax, those are from European sites.

    The Windover link talks of fabric woven from native plants. Im not sure where the textile assertion is coming from, so no there isn't the proof your are asserting.
    Oh, sorry. I didn't realize there were more than one bog people.

    However, the second article, which is about the ones in Florida, says their clothing used complex weaves that would almost certainly "required the use of some type of loom".

    The fabric used to wrap the dead is the oldest flexible fabric ever found in this part of the world.The "yarn" was made with fibers from native plants--probably palmetto or queen palm--using at least seven different complex weaves that required the use of some type of loom. Weaving a piece of fabric large enough to wrap around an adult body would have taken a lot of time, so the weavers probably would not have been enthusiastic about stopping their work, disassembling their looms, and moving to another camp site every few weeks. This and other factors indicate that this was a semi-permanent site. They may have moved to this site in the spring and summer to take advantage of fresh fruits and berries, and to the shore of the nearby brackish lagoon--now called the Indian River--during the winter.


    There's also this:
    NOVA | America's Bog PeopleWhat bothers me about the way finds like this get treated is that, despite the fact this is a very old, and very well preserved site, representing possibly some of the best evidence we will ever get about the time around 6280 BC. Still, the results are expected to fit into the framework of other finds. Why aren't the other finds required to fit it instead? Few if any of the finds we previously had from this time period were anywhere near as credible and complete. The gaps had to be filled in with guesswork, but not with the bog people. Very little guessing is involved.

    Archaeologists are always looking for these neat narratives. But..... real life doesn't follow narratives.
    Starmon likes this.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    To be honest, as the second article is a tourism website, I would like to see a reaserch paper that verifies the "requires some type of loom" claim.

    Archaeologists are always looking for these neat narratives. But..... real life doesn't follow narratives.

    The thing is, if this statement were true then the peer-reviewed papers a researcher put out trying to force evidence to support something it doesnt would get shreaded in other papers or not even published. Its not a true statement though, unless you can show otherwise.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzales56 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    How is a Florida skull proof of Basque in New England of New Foundland?

    Not sure this supports your interpretation: "Moreover, Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs form a clade distinct from that of West Eurasians and with coalescence time estimates varying widely depending on both the method of estimation and the number of assumed founders. Thus, the coalescence times ranged from 12,000–17,000 YBP to 23,000–36,000 YBP, times that are consistent with both a pre- and a postglacial population diffusion (Brown et al. 1998)."
    Mathman asked about contact between "European" peoples and "Native" Americans before Columbus (excluding the Vikings). He cited the Basque people as being mentioned in a book as an opinion, however, I thought other "European" peoples in America pre-Columbus was on topic. If I am wrong then I apologize.

    The information you posted concerning the X haplogroup supports perfectly what you are calling my interpretation. The only distinctions/differences between haplogroup X in Native Americans and Haplogroup X in West Eurasia and Europeans is the fact that mutations and changes have occurred in both of them since the carriers of Haplogroup X left their peoples/lands in the Near East / West Eurasia and went to the Americas.
    So you proposing that contact more than 12,000 year ago? That's what the paper you put posted concludes--the part I quoted. If not how can you say it supports your idea?
    When the Windover Bog peoples arrived in America ("contact") is not known yet. We just know that they were their 8,000 years ago. The date of 11,000/12,000 years from today's date for a common ancestor between the Windover Bog people and their West Eurasian family and lands is an estimate. It can be earlier than that or later than that.... However, using that date only suggests, or tells Us (if that date is correct), that West Eurasian / Near East peoples (the Windover Bog people) with haplogroup X came to America at some point between 11,000/12,000 years ago and 8,000 years ago.

    The date of the Windover Bog peoples arrival in America ("contact") is debatable but, the date has to be at some point in time beyond 8,000 years from today.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    you have yet to show that the WBP are European though. I am still waiting for you to link to the peer reviewed paper that makes that argument...
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    you have yet to show that the WBP are European though. I am still waiting for you to link to the peer reviewed paper that makes that argument...
    The Windover Bog people are haplogroup X.

    Florida State University archaeologist Dr. Glen Doran, Director of the Windover Project (in his book) wrote: "Since the haplogroup distribution of the prehistoric Windover population is unlike that of any known surviving or prehistoric group, they may represent the only demonstrated instance of the recent extinction of a group of Native Americans with no close surviving relatives."


    Dr. Joseph Lorenz from Coriell Institute for Medical Research and part of the Windover Project said (concerning the DNA of the Windover Bog people): "The first person's DNA it looked European. When I looked at the the second one it looked European. When I looked at the third, fourth and fifth it was slightly different from the first two but, they looked European."

    The DNA is very clear concerning the Windover Bog people. They are not East Asian, they are not Siberian, they are West Eurasian.

    Concerning a link to a paper, I did just that in one of my other posts. If you cannot understand that papers relevance concerning the topic at hand or in explaining exactly what I have been stating all along then I will attempt to try and help you understand it.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    That paper does not cover the Windover bog people at all.

    People can write whatever they like, but until it has been through the peer-review process and published what proof do we have that its not bunk?

    Given that the most recent papers, such as this:Mitochondrial haplogroup C4c: A rare lineage entering America through the ice-free corridor? - Kashani - 2011 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library and this:https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/malhi/www/...tle%20Kemp.pdf are stating a haplogroup of C it seems that the assertions of major pre AD contacts between Europe and the Americas are unlikely.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    That paper does not cover the Windover bog people at all.

    People can write whatever they like, but until it has been through the peer-review process and published what proof do we have that its not bunk?

    Given that the most recent papers, such as this:Mitochondrial haplogroup C4c: A rare lineage entering America through the ice-free corridor? - Kashani - 2011 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology - Wiley Online Library and this:https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/malhi/www/...estle Kemp.pdf are stating a haplogroup of C it seems that the assertions of major pre AD contacts between Europe and the Americas are unlikely.
    I will state what is known for you again. The Windover Bog people are haplogroup X (the paper absolutely covers the Windover Bog people). The links you posted above state that, however, the paper/s you posted above are clearly the work of extremely bias individuals who want nothing more than to be misleading.

    In the paper you posted they write:
    "The characterization of one Windover sample as a member of haplogroup X is an interpretation by Smith et al. (1999) of one of eight HVS1 sequences reported by Hauswirth (1994). However, since none of the remaining seven sequences reported by Hauswirth exhibited CR sequences characteristic of any other Asian-derived haplogroup and might therefore reflect either contamination or sequencing errors, the assignment of one of those sequences to Haplogroup X was probably in error. Because haplogroup X is found in Europe at a frequency of about 3 percent, it is possible that contaminant DNA in the Windover sample was the source of this member of haplogroup X"

    There is no Asian derived haplogroup X of any kind, and claiming the Windover Bog DNA was not Asian derived and therefore an error is about as funny as any joke I have ever heard.

    As sad of an attempt as that was by the authors of the paper you posted, the fact that they wrote this about haplogroup X right after writing the above nonsense exposes their bias yet again.

    "More recently, haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X, assigned both by restriction analysis and CR sequencing, have all been reported in an Altai population from southern Siberia (Derenko et al. 2001), where archaeological sites dating to at least 20,000 yr B.P. are found (Goebel 1999). The ancestors of this population represent the only known surviving possible source for peopling of the New World via a single migration."

    We know, and they know too, that the populations of Altai and the entire region of Siberia acquired the X Haplogroup from European populations. From the paper I posted in an earlier post on this thread:

    "The South Caucasian sample is enriched in mtDNAs belonging to clades X2e and X2f." "Clades X2e and X2f encompass the majority (87.1%) of the sequences from the South Caucasus area and show coalescence times (12,000 ± 4,000 YBP and 10,800 ± 5,000 YBP, respectively)." "Clade X2e, defined by the synonymous substitution at 15310, encompasses all haplogroup X sequences in the Altaians." "Altaian haplogroup X, an estimated ρ value <0.33 (P<.05) was obtained. This value corresponds to a time depth of <6,700 years (Forster et al. 1996), and it would suggest that Altaians have acquired haplogroup X2 only relatively recently. This scenario is supported by the concomitant presence in the Altaians of a wide range of other West Eurasian haplogroups (H, J, I, T, U1, U4, and U5) that comprise ∼27% of their mtDNAs. Indeed, any recent migration (for example, from the [southern] Caucasus region) that might have carried X2e mtDNA sequences to the Altai region would also explain the presence of the other West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups in modern Altaians."

    Of course X2e is (as are all X haplogroups) West Eurasian. The X haplogroup in Altai and the entire region of Siberia come from European people / West Eurasians. This is just a fact and for the authors of your paper to suggest anything else, or suggest that the Altai region can be the origin and founding population for the American X2a haplogroup, is absolutely wrong, and they know it.


    HAPLOGROUP X CHART
    Attached Images
    Last edited by gonzales56; February 25th, 2012 at 12:49 PM.
    westwind and Starmon like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    To be honest its sounding like you are the one that its bias, not the papers. You seem to be very invested in the concept of Europeans being very mobile in prehistory.

    I personally will take the data from two different groups of researchers in the last year working with modern DNA replication techniques over a single result from over a decade ago that most other researchers have found to be dubious.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    I still don't see a case here. The Ice corridor, or coastal route movement better fits and is consistent with the mDNA bog people DNA. The European Westward hypothesis, only barely fits the mDNA margin of dates (before ~8000 ybp), and no means of crossing the Atlantic that we know of.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    Personal comment: My original question was about possible Basque fisherman reaching North America during the period between the Viking contact and John Cabot (1497). They were quite experienced as seamen and they had the ships that could do it, so it is not unreasonable. My question was about the existence of evidence.

    The idea that Europeans could cross the Atlantic many thousands of years before, when there were no ships at all, seems absurd.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Do you have more on the Basque fisherman? I've addressed the unsuitability of their lateen sail rigs to Northern waters, but, besides that, did they really have anything large enough for a trans Atlantic journey? During the late 16th century British and dutch fisherman were starting to fish coastal New England--but it was seasonal fishing, with large sturdy ships, and left traces of shore activities where they re-provisioned for water, food, and set up large fish drying and salting racks near the shore and set sail back to their home ports before the fall gales.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Do you have more on the Basque fisherman? I've addressed the unsuitability of their lateen sail rigs to Northern waters, but, besides that, did they really have anything large enough for a trans Atlantic journey? During the late 16th century British and dutch fisherman were starting to fish coastal New England--but it was seasonal fishing, with large sturdy ships, and left traces of shore activities where they re-provisioned for water, food, and set up large fish drying and salting racks near the shore and set sail back to their home ports before the fall gales.
    There is evidence that they traveled from Spain to the Faeroes. From there to the coast of North America is about the same distance. Also there are lots of records of fishing off North America in the 1500's. One clue cited by people who believed they did fish there before is that they brought back to Europe lots of cod, while European waters had been largely fished out.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    There is evidence that they traveled from Spain to the Faeroes. From there to the coast of North America is about the same distance.
    Not hardly it's at least 3 times further, against the Westerly winds, Gulf stream current and without any place to get provisions or repairs.

    Also there are lots of records of fishing off North America in the 1500's. One clue cited by people who believed they did fish there before is that they brought back to Europe lots of cod, while European waters had been largely fished out.
    Aye. Those be the same folks I mentioned.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    There is evidence that they traveled from Spain to the Faeroes. From there to the coast of North America is about the same distance.
    Not hardly it's at least 3 times further, against the Westerly winds, Gulf stream current and without any place to get provisions or repairs.

    Also there are lots of records of fishing off North America in the 1500's. One clue cited by people who believed they did fish there before is that they brought back to Europe lots of cod, while European waters had been largely fished out.
    Aye. Those be the same folks I mentioned.
    I am not sure of the exact distances, but I looked at a globe and my estimate is that distances are about the same. Furthermore from the Faeores to Newfoundland, the Basques would pass Iceland and Greenland, where they could get resupplied if they had to. Since the Vikings were able to reach North America before the Basques were supposed to have, I don't see it as a problem. Certainly they fished off North America during the 1500's, so I don't see any problem with doing it during the 1400's. The open question is whether they actually did it, not whether they could have.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I still don't see a case here. The Ice corridor, or coastal route movement better fits and is consistent with the mDNA bog people DNA. The European Westward hypothesis, only barely fits the mDNA margin of dates (before ~8000 ybp), and no means of crossing the Atlantic that we know of.
    The mDNA of the Florida Bog people is West Eurasian. Nothing about them or their DNA is consistent with them getting to America through an Ice corridor or coastal route bridging North East Asia to Alaska.

    Again, the only fact here is that the Florida Bog people's DNA was West Eurasian. How those West Eurasians were in Florida 8,000+ years ago is unknown but, they were there.

    The Idea that West Eurasians could not build a functioning sea/ocean going vessel 8,000+ years ago but could build monolithic stone structures thousands of years before that date, just seems to me like a very weird assumption to make or argument to hold onto.

    On the other hand, the idea that West Eurasians walked 14,000 plus miles from their homelands and villages in West Eurasia to Florida seems far less likely than any other theory proposed (even the theories proposed by Ancient Alien theorist).

    The simple fact is that no one knows how the Florida Bog people got to Florida yet. However, common sense will tell anyone that it is far more likely that they made the journey by other means than walking 14,000+ miles.
    Last edited by gonzales56; February 27th, 2012 at 05:50 PM.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Other then one 1990's age DNA study, no other researchers have come up with a western European haplotype for them. This shows that the one 1990's study is flawed, as noted in the studies that have come later. Your insisting on the one study being correct show your ideas are clouding your objectivity.
    Starmon likes this.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Other then one 1990's age DNA study, no other researchers have come up with a western European haplotype for them. This shows that the one 1990's study is flawed, as noted in the studies that have come later. Your insisting on the one study being correct show your ideas are clouding your objectivity.
    You are digging yourself an even deeper hole. There is not one paper or a shred of evidence or studies done on the DNA of the Windover Bog people that states, shows or even hints that they are not haplogroup X (West Eurasian).

    You keep making this same claim over and over again, yet the facts are that you cannot post a single paper on anyone who has done the DNA on the Windover Bog people and concluded that the DNA is not haplogroup X.
    westwind likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    I already linked you to TWO papers put out in the last two years that said they were not.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Walking distance over thousands of years isn't an issue either.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    652
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Also there's the fact they were discovered wearing clothing that appears to come from textile. That doesn't "absolutely-to-infinity-certain-beyond-all-hope-of-doubt!!!!!" prove anything, but it does strongly suggest an old world origin.
    How smart does one have to be to discover textiles? It is pretty easy to visualize nets for catching fish or trapping game being adapted to bags for carrying things, then mesh getting smaller and smaller until voila, cloth. Basketry, etc. "Old World"? Not so much.

    What about Egyptian mummies with tobacco and cocaine in their tombs? Where the hell did they get their stash?

    Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Not sure about Cocaine but nicotine exist in some old world plants like Nicotiana africana. Not sure about independent confirmation of the results either.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Erythroxylum, to which the cocaine producing species belongs, is a pantropical genus found in South America, Australia, and Africa, so I wouldn't be to quick to use cocaine as an indicator of new world contact.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    652
    Cool. We'll just ignore the fact that South America has the most extensive cultivation of such plants dating back thousands of years and postulate instead that some minor weed enjoyed a brief vogue among the Pharaohs before being abandoned.

    Coca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Occam's razor need sharpening?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    The point AA is the Egyptian - Americas trade is an extraordinary one not supported by extraordinary evidence or conclusive converging evidence from other lines of evidence. The lab results are intriguing but thus far no one here has put up anything ruling out the other plants which we know could have produced similar results. Nor would be seem too unusual for the "god"/rulers of Egypt to have access to minor rare plants growing to their South.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    against the Westerly winds, Gulf stream current
    Then artifacts from Europe must be brought on purpose, unlike west coast artifacts. Notably around Vancouver Island's "Graveyard of the Pacific" explorers mentioned Natives owning iron blades for their adzes. These were rectangles of flat iron and probably salvage from barrel-hoops washed ashore. Contemporary example is the wash-out from Japan's latest tsunami which last month began to reach North American beaches. Possession of a Japanese hairbrush does not - and did not - prove contact.

    Where does flotsam arriving on the east coast originate?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    652
    Can't say I see what is "extraordinary" about it- both Egypt and Pre-Columbian civilizations were known to have advanced astronomical knowledge, essential for celestial navigation. Egypt traded with India and it is not impossible that such voyagers may have gone farther to the East, perhaps deliberately, perhaps not.
    Overseas trade during the pharaonic period
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Angler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Also there's the fact they were discovered wearing clothing that appears to come from textile. That doesn't "absolutely-to-infinity-certain-beyond-all-hope-of-doubt!!!!!" prove anything, but it does strongly suggest an old world origin.
    How smart does one have to be to discover textiles? It is pretty easy to visualize nets for catching fish or trapping game being adapted to bags for carrying things, then mesh getting smaller and smaller until voila, cloth. Basketry, etc. "Old World"? Not so much.
    The question is: why would they forget it later?

    Anyway, a lot of things that seem obvious to later observers with hindsight didn't (apparently) seem obvious to people at the time. China had both steel and gun powder for at least 1000 years before anybody ever decided to put the two technologies together and build a musket. Societies all over the ancient world were known to use signet rings to make wax impressions or sometimes even ink impressions of the wearer's personal seal.... but somehow never thought to build a printing press made of multiple such items. It happens. Sometimes something is staring us straight in the face and we don't recognize it.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,032
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    I already linked you to TWO papers put out in the last two years that said they were not.
    Neither paper you posted state/stated that.

    One of the papers stated that because haplogroup C and haplogroup X might have arrived in the Americas around the same time (give or take thousands of years) and they are both found in America, that such evidence proves that the two completely different haplogroups were part of the same tribe/people and they came to america together from East Asia into Alaska. <-------- This is not a Scientific statement / study / conclusion.

    In all honesty, the paper is.... Well, does one really have to say what it is?

    The other paper you posted stated that the DNA of the Windover Bog people has to be wrong, contaminated or altered in some way because the DNA is European / West Eurasian in origin and not East Eurasian. <-------- This is not a Scientific statement / study / conclusion.

    They then flat out try to mislead people by stating that Haplogroup X's origins found in Modern Native American's points directly to the Altaian's in Siberia. They then state that studies on these X Haplogroups in Altaian's have been shown to come from relatively recent European peoples, but they make that point as if it is minuscule, unimportant or might even be false, when they know it is not.

    Again.. "Clade X2e, defined by the synonymous substitution at 15310, encompasses all haplogroup X sequences in the Altaians." "Altaian and Siberian haplogroup X lineages are not related to the Native American cluster." <------- This is a Scientific statement / study / conclusion.

    X2e is one European / West Eurasian clade. So are many other X clades/clusters. The Altaians have many European Haplogroups within their population due to a relatively recent European contribution to them.

    Your papers picked data, like the fact that Altaians have haplogroup X in some of their population in order to suggest (mislead people into thinking) that haplogroup X in America came from Siberia while holding back valuable, clear and real evidence stating that its not true. When they cant mislead by cherry picking data and leaving out critical facts, they flat out call Dr.'s and Scientist incompetent or liars and state that their work is false (with no proof at all).

    The standards (facts) in the papers I have posted have been set. It does not matter if it was last week or 100 years ago.
    Last edited by gonzales56; March 2nd, 2012 at 12:33 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Actually yes it does matter how old it is, as the results have been both questioned and not successfully replicated in the 13 years since the 1999 paper was published.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    16,540
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Muddier: The mastodon skull dated to last glacial maximum could have been ice-rafted, since anything that died on the sheet then would inevitably reach the sea embedded in iceberg. Offshore Virginia happens to be well-carved with scours from these bergs.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    There's also a legend of a Chinese contact with the Pacific NW around 300 or 500 AD. The dates are kind of fuzzy. Apparently the colony ended up similar to Greenland's fate. It just plain wasn't profitable. The terrain didn't offer any resources that mainland China didn't already have in abundance anyway, and dealing with the natives wasn't worth the trouble.

    Fou-Sang or Fusang, a 5th Century Chinese Colony in Western America? | Geographicus Rare & Antique Map Blog

    Perhaps the modern state of the New world occurred as a simple a matter that Europe's heavy population push, incessant warfare, and state of military technology in the 1500's created conditions that uniquely made contact, and... more specifically conquest... of the new world an economically practical proposition. In earlier times, when there was still lots of virgin forest, or other places a wannabe homesteader could go in the old world, trying to start and maintain something across an ocean, away from home, and surrounded by potentially hostile natives (over whom their own technological advantage was very small)- maybe that just wasn't worth it.

    So the scenario for past encounters would be like this:

    1) - Land gets discovered.

    2) - Discoverer thinks there might be potential, so they go home and get an expedition.

    3) - A trade outpost gets set up.

    4) - The trade outpost suffers quite a lot of difficulty, and never finds any resources that are especially valuable.

    5) - The settlers get frustrated and either die out or go home.

    6) - The event is so unremarkable, it barely gets a footnote in history. Worse, it's actually an embarrassment, so.... that footnote is rarely reviewed.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    New York State
    Posts
    846
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Dennis Stanford plans to dredge an area known to be cluttered with ice-rafted sediment, for objects he thinks belong to that area. Well let's hope he finds some great stuff, even with the wrong reasons and wrong conclusions. This spring.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1
    Also, is any early contact consistent with spread of pathogens and depopulations patterns in North America? It always stunned me that New England colonist found cleared lands which they took as Davine Providence when in fact they were witnessing the remains of much larger farming population shattered from diseases of European contacts just a few decades before.[/QUOTE]

    I know this thread is old, and I am new, but I figured I would throw this possibility out there: the possibility that European diseases traveled all the way up from Mexico through the continent to New England and decimated the native population even before they came face to face with Europeans themselves. There was extensive contact between Native American groups, thus facilitating the passing of diseases from tribe to tribe. Seeing as how Cortes landed in central Mexico in 1519 and the colonists landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620, it would suggest more than enough time for disease to travel.

    Just an idea. I'd have to find some data to see how fast, say, influenza, travels through populations.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    The big killers back in those times for native populations meeting up with pathogens from Europeans were smallpox and measles. The way the American populations succumbed to these diseases is almost a carbon copy of the way the Australian populations did. Which suggests that they were first (catastrophic) exposures.

    And I find the notion that native American groups were incapable of clearing land and growing crops of food plants native to the continent pretty arrogant/ignorant. After all, there are still examples of purpose built granaries surviving in several areas of North America. I remember seeing some discussion on a history documentary that the newly arrived Europeans managed to offend local populations by treating their farmed foods, corn mainly, as "nature's bounty" rather than the result of a farming community's dedicated work.
    Ascended likes this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    I was rather sold on the idea of early european migrants to the americas when studying anthropology/archaeology circa 1980--
    then the connection between clovis and solutrian stone tools kinda clinched it.

    Now we have canoes from doggerland circa 7-12000ybp some over 30 feet long, and evidence of deep sea fishing going back beyond that.

    It seems foolish to assume that long distance migrations over land and sea did not happen thousands of years ago.
    and
    To the best of my knowledge, the assumed "ice free corridor" through which, the claimed (walking) migration of peoples from asia is said to have happened still awaits archaeological proof it it's existance. (so they too may have come by canoes/rafts/boats paddled along the shores?)

    From the recent doggerland studies it seems that there was a rapid sea level rise circa 5-7000 ybp.
    (associated with the draining of lake agassiz?)
    Which may indicate that if indeed there was a walking path to the americas from asia, it could well be underwater now.

    (what a pity that underwater archaeology is so damned expensive and logistically difficult)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I was rather sold on the idea of early european migrants to the americas when studying anthropology/archaeology circa 1980--
    then the connection between clovis and solutrian stone tools kinda clinched it.

    Now we have canoes from doggerland circa 7-12000ybp some over 30 feet long, and evidence of deep sea fishing going back beyond that.

    It seems foolish to assume that long distance migrations over land and sea did not happen thousands of years ago.
    And we're always naturally tempted to cast history against the direction our own technology has gone.

    It reminds me of how like in discussions about the Great Pyramid, people are constantly pointing out that "even with modern cranes" it would be hard to lift the stones ..... as if a crane were the only way to lift stone.

    Here, I'm thinking perhaps we may someday learn that a large sail boat isn't the only kind of vessel that can travel across an ocean. Maybe large canoes, or smaller boats if they encounter the right currents? Maybe a group of people who are able to deep sea fish so they don't run out of food, and adept at collecting rain water?

    Clearly the people of Hawaii didn't walk across a land bridge.



    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    The big killers back in those times for native populations meeting up with pathogens from Europeans were smallpox and measles. The way the American populations succumbed to these diseases is almost a carbon copy of the way the Australian populations did. Which suggests that they were first (catastrophic) exposures.
    Very good point.

    Except the Viking migrations don't appear to have caused the same contagion. Perhaps Vikings weren't carriers? Or they only were exposed to a small region?
    sculptor likes this.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Except the Viking migrations don't appear to have caused the same contagion. Perhaps Vikings weren't carriers? Or they only were exposed to a small region?
    I'd go for the small, remote region for starters. The tip of Newfoundland and intermittent excursions further south, and only for a brief period would limit native exposures to any pathogens. Vinland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Freshman Headdresser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Germany
    Posts
    70
    I read that Hans Giffhorn claims that the Chanchapoya Indians are descendants of celtic settlers. I don't know the english title of his book but translated it is: "Has America been discovered in the antique?" publisher: H.C. Beck.
    I never read his book but it was written that he bases his thesis on DNA-Analyses that show similarities (some of there descendants are born blond and blue-eyed today) and that both used the same metals, and comparable writings and ways to drill skulls...plus that this indians pictured themselfs with beards (or something that can be interpreted as beards) and has been described by the espaniols as the brightes and most attractive indians.
    -
    I don't know if there are enough proves for this thesis...I guess not...but it is maybe interesting to follow.
    Starmon likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56 X2 in Florida 
    New Member Starmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    2
    Caucasian and Indo-MidEastern, but where 8,000 years ago? Certainly they did not leave this region and row right over to Florida/Gran banks.
    Last edited by Starmon; February 16th, 2014 at 06:42 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Except the Viking migrations don't appear to have caused the same contagion. Perhaps Vikings weren't carriers? Or they only were exposed to a small region?
    I'd go for the small, remote region for starters. The tip of Newfoundland and intermittent excursions further south, and only for a brief period would limit native exposures to any pathogens. Vinland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Another interesting possibility is that the small pox disease didn't take off until a Spanish Expedition brought actual pigs with them. Europeans were mostly immune to small pox and so they wouldn't have had the disease in a transfer-able form.

    If that be the case, then any number of European visitors throughout history could have arrived without pigs, and the contagion would still have waited to happen until later.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    A few things:
    1) The X haplogroup variant found in North America is X2a. It is unknown outside of North American Indians and their descendants. It is thought to have diverged from the X2 haplogroup at least 11,000 ybp. It is therefore not related in any meaningful way to the Altai. It is consistent with the Solutrian hypothesis however.

    This (1 above) was triggered by gonzales56's post of March 1, 2012, referring to the haplogroup X2e variant in the Altai people. This is not to say that both variants couldn't have derived from an in-common previous X2 population.

    2) Anybody can think of an alternative explanation for anything. The fossil snail collection contributed to the Vatican Museum by the Cardinal who was later Pope Sixtus V, for instance, was authoritatively pronounced to be mere imitations of snails produced in the soil by the mysterious emanations of the heavenly bodies, designed to deceive men (Barry Fell, Saga America, p. 18). If you wish to discount the Cinmar blade as contemporary with mammoth bones brought up in the same net, why not just postulate that some malicious Indian paddled out 90 miles from the Virginia coastline and dropped it in just the spot where the shoreline had been at the maximum glaciation some 14,000 ybp, perhaps in order to confuse mankind, rather than invoking floating icebergs (You do know that the Cinmar captain made a meticulous note of the location, and also that the blade sat in a Connecticut (I believe) museum for 40 years before becoming known to the wider world of science.)

    This (2 above) was a response to Pong's entry of March 6, 2012.

    3) The Windover DNA is an ongoing scandal in American archaeology. Dr. Lorenz made the famous statement about its resemblance to European DNA in a video widely distributed on the internet, in about 2005, I believe. Since then, no work has been done on Windover. The North Brevard History website laments that Florida State U, where the Windover remains are stored, cannot fund any further analysis... If Dr. Lorenz got his results published, I've been unable to find them. His publication list at Central Washington U (yes Virginia, he's not longer on the east coast) lists nothing that resembles it. Odd for a finding of such interest, wouldn't you say. On the other hand, we've recently been regaled with the finding that the Anzick baby had north-eastern Asian DNA, like most modern Indians. How PC. Too bad Kennewick Man's DNA turned out to be too 'contaminated' to be reliably analyzed...

    The above (3) was triggered by a 2012 conversation between gonzales56, Paleoichneum et. al. I realize 2 years may have rendered that conversation moot. However the discussion emphasized a lack of peer reviewed papers. I'm just noting that there may be political (non-scientific) considerations affecting that.

    4) The plague which decimated the Massachusetts Indians in 1617-19 is thought to have been hepatitis A, not smallpox. It was evidently introduced by European sailors who came ashore in 1616 on a slave gathering expedition.

    This was triggered by some 2012 speculations on the origins of the diseases which decimated native Americans in the northeast.

    5) Are you familiar with Thor Heyerdahl's voyages on Kontiki and RA II? Not only was transoceanic voyaging possible even in remote antiquity, it wasn't even particularly difficult. The ships used in the European 'age of discovery' were rather small and backward compared to those available to the Romans, Phonecians, Egyptians, Minoans, Iberian Celts (check out Caesar's description of his naval battle with the Celts in 55BC for instance) the Chinese and others. The coastline of the Americas stretches 10,000 miles, about 80% of the way between the poles. It would be very hard to miss...

    Again in the 2012 conversation mentioned below 3, above, as well as in other places, there are references to putative difficulties with long-distance ocean voyaging in pre-history. I'm suggesting that over-reliance on such arguments may be misleading.

    6) You might have a look at something like Constance Irwin's 1960 book Fair Gods and Stone Faces , say. Ever hear of the 'Uncle Sam' statue? Did you know that there have been many images of bearded semitic-appearing faces found in Mesoamerica? (Amerindians don't grow beards). Ever look at the very African-looking Olmec heads? Have you seen some of the images (now no longer available for viewing) at Chichen Itza showing dark-skinned mesoAmericans sacrificing light-skinned persons, with indications that those people had come via the sea? Ever look at some of George Catlin's paintings of Mandan Indians, one of a lady with blue eyes, another of an apparent chief with a full beard?

    It seems to me that there is a tendency in internet discussions for participants to seemingly ignore or perhaps be unaware of putative evidence for cultural diffusion which has been uncovered in the Americas. I'm not saying that any of these are undisputed as diffusionary evidence. Obviously if any of them had undisputed status, the isolationist paradigm would be in doubt.
    Last edited by Arrowstone; March 27th, 2014 at 11:30 AM. Reason: To clarify (I hope) my reasons for composition
    sculptor likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    A few things:
    1) The X haplogroup variant found in North America is X2a. It is unknown outside of North American Indians and their descendants. It is thought to have diverged from the X2 haplogroup at least 11,000 ybp. It is therefore not related in any meaningful way to the Altai. It is consistent with the Solutrian hypothesis however.
    2) Anybody can think of an alternative explanation for anything. The fossil snail collection contributed to the Vatican Museum by the Cardinal who was later Pope Sixtus V, for instance, was authoritatively pronounced to be mere imitations of snails produced in the soil by the mysterious emanations of the heavenly bodies, designed to deceive men (Barry Fell, Saga America, p. 18). If you wish to discount the Cinmar blade as contemporary with mammoth bones brought up in the same net, why not just postulate that some malicious Indian paddled out 90 miles from the Virginia coastline and dropped it in just the spot where the shoreline had been at the maximum glaciation some 14,000 ybp, perhaps in order to confuse mankind, rather than invoking floating icebergs (You do know that the Cinmar captain made a meticulous note of the location, and also that the blade sat in a Connecticut (I believe) museum for 40 years before becoming known to the wider world of science.)
    3) The Windover DNA is an ongoing scandal in American archaeology. Dr. Lorenz made the famous statement about its resemblance to European DNA in a video widely distributed on the internet, in about 2005, I believe. Since then, no work has been done on Windover. The North Brevard History website laments that Florida State U, where the Windover remains are stored, cannot fund any further analysis... If Dr. Lorenz got his results published, I've been unable to find them. His publication list at Central Washington U (yes Virginia, he's not longer on the east coast) lists nothing that resembles it. Odd for a finding of such interest, wouldn't you say. On the other hand, we've recently been regaled with the finding that the Anzick baby had north-eastern Asian DNA, like most modern Indians. How PC. Too bad Kennewick Man's DNA turned out to be too 'contaminated' to be reliably analyzed...
    4) The plague which decimated the Massachusetts Indians in 1617-19 is thought to have been hepatitis A, not smallpox.
    5) Are you familiar with Thor Heyerdahl's voyages on Kontiki and RA II? Not only was transoceanic voyaging possible even in remote antiquity, it wasn't even particularly difficult. The ships used in the European 'age of discovery' were rather small and backward compared to those available to the Romans, Phonecians, Egyptians, Minoans, Iberian Celts (check out Caesar's description of his naval battle with the Celts in 55BC for instance) the Chinese and others. The coastline of the Americas stretches 10,000 miles, about 80% of the way between the poles. It would be very hard to miss...
    6) You might have a look at something like Constance Irwin's 1960 book Fair Gods and Stone Faces , say. Ever hear of the 'Uncle Sam' statue? Did you know that there have been many images of bearded semitic-appearing faces found in Mesoamerica? (Amerindians don't grow beards). Ever look at the very African-looking Olmec heads? Have you seen some of the images (now no longer available for viewing) at Chichen Itza showing dark-skinned mesoAmericans sacrificing light-skinned persons, with indications that those people had come via the sea? Ever look at some of George Catlin's paintings of Mandan Indians, one of a lady with blue eyes, another of an apparent chief with a full beard?
    Wall o'text tl'dr

    What is your point with the mass of text here?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    well
    that's one way of looking at it
    or not looking at it
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    [QUOTE=Paleoichneum;540834
    Wall o'text tl'dr

    What is your point with the mass of text here?[/QUOTE]

    Well, if you have to ask, guess I just like to type...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Wall o'text tl'dr

    What is your point with the mass of text here?
    Well, if you have to ask, guess I just like to type...
    What is your point with the mass of text here?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Wall o'text tl'dr

    What is your point with the mass of text here?
    Well, if you have to ask, guess I just like to type...
    What is your point with the mass of text here?
    It was sort of responding to things that struck me as I read through the thread discussion. I realize that it is incomplete and may have missed a few points entirely. Also my style seems to differ from the internet norm in that I am more verbose than many. I apologize for the snippy remark above. I'd just run 7 miles...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    It's wasn't really that verbose, but disjointed with not enough text separation/features that make it difficult to read its seemingly unrelated points.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    As lynx noted it wasnt so much the length that was an issue, but the lack of formatting which made the post very dense and hard to decipher
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    See my notes added to my March 17th post above.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Please do not edit posts to add content, it makes it very very hard to follow what is going on and no one will know that something has been added.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    A few things:
    1) The X haplogroup variant found in North America is X2a. It is unknown outside of North American Indians and their descendants. It is thought to have diverged from the X2 haplogroup at least 11,000 ybp. It is therefore not related in any meaningful way to the Altai. It is consistent with the Solutrian hypothesis however.

    This (1 above) was triggered by gonzales56's post of March 1, 2012, referring to the haplogroup X2e variant in the Altai people. This is not to say that both variants couldn't have derived from an in-common previous X2 population.

    2) Anybody can think of an alternative explanation for anything. The fossil snail collection contributed to the Vatican Museum by the Cardinal who was later Pope Sixtus V, for instance, was authoritatively pronounced to be mere imitations of snails produced in the soil by the mysterious emanations of the heavenly bodies, designed to deceive men (Barry Fell, Saga America, p. 18). If you wish to discount the Cinmar blade as contemporary with mammoth bones brought up in the same net, why not just postulate that some malicious Indian paddled out 90 miles from the Virginia coastline and dropped it in just the spot where the shoreline had been at the maximum glaciation some 14,000 ybp, perhaps in order to confuse mankind, rather than invoking floating icebergs (You do know that the Cinmar captain made a meticulous note of the location, and also that the blade sat in a Connecticut (I believe) museum for 40 years before becoming known to the wider world of science.)

    This (2 above) was a response to Pong's entry of March 6, 2012.

    3) The Windover DNA is an ongoing scandal in American archaeology. Dr. Lorenz made the famous statement about its resemblance to European DNA in a video widely distributed on the internet, in about 2005, I believe. Since then, no work has been done on Windover. The North Brevard History website laments that Florida State U, where the Windover remains are stored, cannot fund any further analysis... If Dr. Lorenz got his results published, I've been unable to find them. His publication list at Central Washington U (yes Virginia, he's not longer on the east coast) lists nothing that resembles it. Odd for a finding of such interest, wouldn't you say. On the other hand, we've recently been regaled with the finding that the Anzick baby had north-eastern Asian DNA, like most modern Indians. How PC. Too bad Kennewick Man's DNA turned out to be too 'contaminated' to be reliably analyzed...

    The above (3) was triggered by a 2012 conversation between gonzales56, Paleoichneum et. al. I realize 2 years may have rendered that conversation moot. However the discussion emphasized a lack of peer reviewed papers. I'm just noting that there may be political (non-scientific) considerations affecting that.

    4) The plague which decimated the Massachusetts Indians in 1617-19 is thought to have been hepatitis A, not smallpox. It was evidently introduced by European sailors who came ashore in 1616 on a slave gathering expedition.

    This was triggered by some 2012 speculations on the origins of the diseases which decimated native Americans in the northeast.

    5) Are you familiar with Thor Heyerdahl's voyages on Kontiki and RA II? Not only was transoceanic voyaging possible even in remote antiquity, it wasn't even particularly difficult. The ships used in the European 'age of discovery' were rather small and backward compared to those available to the Romans, Phonecians, Egyptians, Minoans, Iberian Celts (check out Caesar's description of his naval battle with the Celts in 55BC for instance) the Chinese and others. The coastline of the Americas stretches 10,000 miles, about 80% of the way between the poles. It would be very hard to miss...

    Again in the 2012 conversation mentioned below 3, above, as well as in other places, there are references to putative difficulties with long-distance ocean voyaging in pre-history. I'm suggesting that over-reliance on such arguments may be misleading.

    6) You might have a look at something like Constance Irwin's 1960 book Fair Gods and Stone Faces , say. Ever hear of the 'Uncle Sam' statue? Did you know that there have been many images of bearded semitic-appearing faces found in Mesoamerica? (Amerindians don't grow beards). Ever look at the very African-looking Olmec heads? Have you seen some of the images (now no longer available for viewing) at Chichen Itza showing dark-skinned mesoAmericans sacrificing light-skinned persons, with indications that those people had come via the sea? Ever look at some of George Catlin's paintings of Mandan Indians, one of a lady with blue eyes, another of an apparent chief with a full beard?

    It seems to me that there is a tendency in internet discussions for participants to seemingly ignore or perhaps be unaware of putative evidence for cultural diffusion which has been uncovered in the Americas. I'm not saying that any of these are undisputed as diffusionary evidence. Obviously if any of them had undisputed status, the isolationist paradigm would be in doubt.
    Sorry. Here is my update.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Starmon View Post
    Caucasian and Indo-MidEastern, but where 8,000 years ago? Certainly they did not leave this region and row right over to Florida/Gran banks.
    more on the order of 16-35000 years ago
    when sea levels were much lower there were more islands in the atlantic and almost all of the continental margins were above sea level

    almost all clovis finds can be shown to have spread from the south east to the north and west
    .................
    not to worry Arrowstone
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #70  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    By the bye, the Cinmar bones were mastodon.
    Last edited by Arrowstone; April 4th, 2014 at 02:31 AM. Reason: Correction to my Mar 28/14 post
    sculptor likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  72. #71  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    By the bye, the Cinmar bones were mastodon.
    Which give us a likely date of 22kybp for the associated blade.

    What a pity the mastodon tusk and molar didn't have butchering marks.
    The only association we can state with certainty was the association within the trawler's net.

    Tantalizing fersure.
    Definitive? maybe

    .....
    (but, then, again, long ago, I drank the Solutrian hypothesis coolaide)
    Last edited by sculptor; April 6th, 2014 at 02:15 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  73. #72  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by mathman View Post
    In my humble opinion there is no way Europeans or anyone else could cross the Atlantic to America 12000 years ago - they didn't have anything like ships. If there is a DNA connection it presumable came from diffusion through East Asia and Alaska. Since that connection (according to present day ideas) was bridged many times over thousands of years, relations as described by gonzales56 are quite plausible.

    From the evidence that I have seen, Caucasians were in North America long before today's Native peoples showed up. I do believe that today's Native Americans came from Asia, and they clearly are for the most part Mongoloid, and from East Asia, and Siberia. Now, I do believe that the Ancient Caucasians that predated today's Native came here the same way, that is through Siberia, and into Alaska, then down into the lower 48's. Caucasian populations stretched from Ireland and Portugal in the West, all the way into China, and Central Asia in the East. There is evidence that Caucasian peoples were also living in Siberia long before Mongoloid type peoples spread into the region. So that said, it's quite easy for Caucasian people to follow the Giant herds of Mammoths into North America. Also, research shows that today's Native people have small percentages of Caucasian DNA in their genes. There is a debate whether that received this Caucasian element in Siberia, or in the New World, I personally believe in the New World.
    Last edited by freegift; April 15th, 2014 at 04:44 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  74. #73  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    What is your emprical evidence for caucasions in n america before the arrival of the native populations
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  75. #74  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    If I am intruding on a 2-way conversation, I apologize. Concerning evidence of Caucasians in Americas prior to currently accepted timing of northern Asians (somewhere between 15 and 30 thousand ybp, I believe), Human skeletal evidence (disputed of course) has been reported from sites in the Americas dated (disputed of course) prior to that time. While nothing like DNA evidence points to them being specifically Caucasian (DNA analysis being a very recent thing and reserved for otherwise acceptable remains), at least some of them, similar to Kennewick Man, exhibited morphological features inconsistent with a (modern-type) northern Asiatic origin.
    o Human skull found in Buenos Aires in 1896 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 1.0 to 1.5 mybp
    o Human vertebra found at Monte Hermoso, Argentina in about 1908 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 3-5 mybp
    o Human jaw fragment found at Miramar, Argentina in 1921 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 2.5-3 mybp
    o Human skeleton found in a mine at Table Mountain in California in 1855 or 6 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to about 33-55 mybp
    o Human skull found in a mine at Bald Mountain in California in 1866 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to at least 2 mybp. There were reasons to suppose it might have been much older.
    o Human skeleton found in coal bed in Macaupin County, Illinois in 1862 (disputed of course) - dated based on analysis of age of coal bed to at least 320 mybp

    Anyway, you get my drift. There are more instances.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  76. #75  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Please tell me you are not claiming "science dogma!!! OMG !!!" for the reason that you felt the need to label all examples with the "disputed (of course)" tags.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  77. #76  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Please to explain "science dogma"?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  78. #77  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,690
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    o Human skull found in Buenos Aires in 1896 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 1.0 to 1.5 mybp
    o Human vertebra found at Monte Hermoso, Argentina in about 1908 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 3-5 mybp
    o Human jaw fragment found at Miramar, Argentina in 1921 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to 2.5-3 mybp
    o Human skeleton found in a mine at Table Mountain in California in 1855 or 6 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to about 33-55 mybp
    o Human skull found in a mine at Bald Mountain in California in 1866 (disputed of course) - dated based on stratigraphy to at least 2 mybp. There were reasons to suppose it might have been much older.
    o Human skeleton found in coal bed in Macaupin County, Illinois in 1862 (disputed of course) - dated based on analysis of age of coal bed to at least 320 mybp
    Oh dear...
    I just Googled for three of those (the last 3):
    The Table Mountain appears to have no references other than in the "literature" and websites of nutcases (Michael A. Cremo being one)
    The Bald Mountain one has been decisively determined to be a fake.
    And the Macoupin (note the correct spelling) County skeleton is, again, apparently only mentioned in by nutcases and creationists.

    It appears that when you say "disputed" you're either taking unsupported claims at face value or using the word to mean "science says one thing, a few fringe nutters say another".
    Paleoichneum likes this.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  79. #78  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    I guess one person's nutcase is the authority for another. However that may be, I have little patience for the ad hominem fallacy. If you have a substantive critique, please make it known.

    Thanks

    By the way, you might want to do more research than a few Googles. A reference for Table Mountain: Winslow, C.F. (1873) Proceedings of the Boston Society of Natural History, 15: 257-259. Apologize for spelling error. Not my strongest subject. That a website decisively declares something to be a fake does not make it so. And any genus homo artifact found in American Pliocene strata would be suspect as a hoax. Of course there was much dispute about the skull at the time. That's one reason it's remembered at all. As to sediment - (?) The report on the Macoupin County skeleton appeared in the December 1862 issue of The Geologist.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  80. #79  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,690
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    However that may be, I have little patience for the ad hominem fallacy.
    It's a good job I didn't make one then.
    Those people are nutcases because they promote pseudscience, not that it's pseudoscience because they're nutcases.

    A reference for Table Mountain: Winslow, C.F. (1873) Proceedings of the Boston Society of Natural History, 15: 257-259.
    The report on the Macoupin County skeleton appeared in the December 1862 issue of The Geologist.
    Really?
    You're using contemporary reports and considering them current and still valid?
    You are aware that science, and examination methods, have moved on since then?

    This is what I mean by pseudoscience: ignore everything except the evidence you're willing to accept - the bits that support your pre-formed conclusion.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; April 18th, 2014 at 04:12 PM.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
    Reply With Quote  
     

  81. #80  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Kennewick man was originally thought to be caucasian, wasn't he? Based on height, anyway. But later on, a closer examination suggested that he was probably polynesian.

    Kennewick Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Please tell me you are not claiming "science dogma!!! OMG !!!" for the reason that you felt the need to label all examples with the "disputed (of course)" tags.
    I'm sure the claim of "science dogma"! gets frustrating after a while. Someone should just start funding nutcase legend refutal programs. It's impossible to refute them all, but even just refuting the few leading ones would help.


    For example, I did some looking into the great "red haired giants" legend.

    Si-Te-Cah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It was hard to get to the bottom of what with all the paranoid claims "suppression", but I finally found an article that does, and of course there were no giant bones found.

    Lots of other bones and artifacts, but no giants. So it's as near as one can get to being positively refuted.

    The Red Haired Giants of Lovelock Cave
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  82. #81  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Were the solutrean peoples caucasian?
    They were certainly European.
    That aside, they were obviously here in north america long before the clovis culture sprang onto the scene, most likely by well over 10kyrs before clovis culture..
    Disputed dates remain, but they did leave some tools behind to tease and tantilize archaeologists.
    That aside, we have zero archaeological evidence for the supposed migration route through "the ice free corridor". The only proof of that speculative route should be human artifacts and bones predating the ones found further south. And, that also means pre monte verde circa 15kybp.

    Speculate as you will but you cannot prove that caucasions were not here before the "asian" migrations.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  83. #82  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Don't know whether to think of this as fun or silly. A bit like stirring a hornet's nest. Still It's Interesting to see some life on the thread. I don't really care all that much whether the hominid remains mentioned were from the Indicated eras or not. My Interests are more along the line of how findings are dealt with based on the expectations of scientists. Prior to Darwin's publications, human fossils from Pliocene and older times were, If not expected, at least not proscribed by the then prevailing world-view. As evolutionary Ideas became popular, they fell out of favor.
    By the bye, my latest reading on Kennewick Man (on the govt website as I recall) suggested that his morphology resembled the Ainu of Japan, for what it's worth.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  84. #83  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    and:
    The Ainu of Japan have been described as "proto caucasoid"
    (seems to be an on-going debate about that)

    Question
    Has any denisovan dna been found in amer-indians?
    edit:
    Last edited by sculptor; April 18th, 2014 at 11:52 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  85. #84  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    How do you account for the DNA analysis of Anzik-1 from Montana1.

    The Ainu used to be suggested as possible proto-Caucasiod. DNA has placed them into eastern and northeastern Asian genetic groups2.

    1. Rasmussen M, Anzick SL, et al. (2014). "The genome of a Late Pleistocene human from a Clovis burial site in western Montana". Nature 506: 225-229

    2. Cavalli-Sforza, L.L., Menozzi, P. & Piazza, A. (1994). The History and Geography of Human Genes. New Jersey: Princeton University Press.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  86. #85  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    Don't know whether to think of this as fun or silly. A bit like stirring a hornet's nest. Still It's Interesting to see some life on the thread. I don't really care all that much whether the hominid remains mentioned were from the Indicated eras or not. My Interests are more along the line of how findings are dealt with based on the expectations of scientists. Prior to Darwin's publications, human fossils from Pliocene and older times were, If not expected, at least not proscribed by the then prevailing world-view. As evolutionary Ideas became popular, they fell out of favor.
    By the bye, my latest reading on Kennewick Man (on the govt website as I recall) suggested that his morphology resembled the Ainu of Japan, for what it's worth.
    Oh. The article mentioned that he was either Polynesian or Ainu. But I didn't know who the Ainu were, so I only mentioned the connection to Polynesians. Here's the quote from wiki:


    [quote="wiki"]
    nthropologist Joseph Powell of the University of New Mexico was also allowed to examine the remains. Powell used craniometric data obtained by anthropologist William White Howells of Harvard University and anthropologist Tsunehiko Hanihara of Saga University that had the advantage of including data drawn from Asian and North American populations.[9] Powell said that Kennewick Man was not European but most resembled the Ainu[6] and Polynesians.[9] Powell said that the Ainu descend from the Jōmon people who are an East Asian population with "closest biological affinity with south-east Asians rather than western Eurasian peoples".[10] Furthermore, Powell said that dental analysis showed the skull had a 94 percent chance of being a Sundadont group like the Ainu and Polynesians and only a 48 percent chance of being a Sinodont group like that of North Asia.[9] Powell said analysis of the skull showed it to be "unlike American Indians and Europeans".[9] Powell concluded that Kennewick man "is clearly not a Caucasoid unless Ainu and Polynesians are considered Caucasoid."[
    [
    [/quote]

    I didn't know Ainu were considered proto-caucasoid. But if they are then I guess Kennewick man is evidence that they were here in the Americas 9000 or so years ago.





    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  87. #86  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Sorry but I can't resist. Your Ainu DNA comment based (I suppose) on the 1994 article got me to wonder if there have been updates in 20 years. See #88 below.
    Last edited by Arrowstone; April 19th, 2014 at 01:16 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  88. #87  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Your link doesnt work.

    This 2012 paper also shows a lack of Caucasian ancestry, but rather mixing of several other east Asian groups http://www.saitou-naruya-laboratory....7-787_2012.pdf
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  89. #88  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    19
    Well, I'm a complete failure at uploading anything. Anyway, the 1880 Ainu guy has a full beard, unlike virtually all Amerindian males and, I believe, most northeast Asians of today.



    Per the Heritage of Japan website:
    According to genetic tests, the Ainu people belong mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup D2 (a haplogroup that is found uniquely in and frequently throughout Japan including Okinawa with its closest relations being Tibetans and Andaman Islanders in the Indian Ocean). On the paternal side, the vast majority (87.5%) of the Ainu were, according to a 2004 study to be of Asian-specific YAP+ lineages (Y-haplogroups D-M55* and D-M125), that were only distributed in the Japanese Archipelago. The Ainu exhibited no other Y-haplogroups (i.e. none of the common East Asian C-M8, O-M175*, and O-M122* haplogroups) and shared no other Y-DNA in common in mainland Japanese and Okinawans.

    The http://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/1-temp-from-africa-to-east-asia-the-tale-of-migration-and-origins-emerges-from-our-mitochondria-dna/origins-of-the-jomon-jomon-connections-with-the-continent-and-with-todays-japanese/who-are-the-ainu-people/ website has a lot of info on DNA studies which connect the Ainu in various ways with most of the world's peoples, including Africans.

    A significant note from there: The Paleolithic Siberian population expansions are also thought to be responsible for a migration to the Americas and that North America may have had ancestral relatives of the Jomon and Ainu among its early settlers. The best-known evidence that may support this theory is probably Kennewick Man.
    Last edited by Arrowstone; April 19th, 2014 at 01:29 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  90. #89  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstone View Post
    Per the Heritage of Japan website:
    According to genetic tests, the Ainu ... closest relations being Tibetans and Andaman Islanders in the Indian Ocean
    Plainly these represent a very early, adaptable, and wide-ranging people. But could they survive around the Aleutian Islands, and so forth?


    ***

    I'm warming to the idea of (slightly pre-Columbian) European fishing contact, since looking at old maps not including the Americas. These often show what might be fantastic islands far across the Atlantic. Fantastic because they're often tidy rectangles, brightly colour-coded in contrast to any other land drawn (even speculated land), and located where we know is open ocean. It occurred to me that navigators - and really anybody who goes to sea for fishing or whaling - is not so interested in charting the land... as charting the water. What we modern landlubbers take for large, improbably geometric islands, might have been fishing claims. That's speculation, but considering how information must translate from seamen to cartographers to map copyists who'd never been to sea, isn't it plausible those mythical islands originated in dumb misunderstanding not pure fabrication?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  91. #90  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    I wonder if maybe the OP has it backward. What if the Basque fishermen were Native Americans who started fishing off the coasts of Western Europe, and then some of them settled there?

    The Basque language doesn't really match up with any of the other languages of Europe. Their DNA does seem very Western European, though. Indeed, according to wiki, their DNA seems to be the root of most of the DNA that is seen as "Western European". Like they have more of the marker than any other group in Europe.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Basque_people#Genetic_evidence

    It would be really funny if it were to turn out that Caucasians had emerged originally in the New World as an offshoot of the Ainu people Kennewick Man represents, and then migrated to Europe across the Atlantic. Probably isn't what happened, but it would be really funny if it did. I'm guessing DNA evidence will refute it.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  92. #91  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Who were the peoples of the solutrean stone culture?
    Who are their descendants?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  93. #92  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    as/re could europeans have made the voyage to america circa 22-35kybp.

    A man crossed from greenland to scotland in a kayak in 1728---unfortunately, he met the same fate as had the original marathon runner.



    The man was extremely exhausted and unfortunately died tree days later. His kayak with hunting equipment was placed hanging in the nearby church as a kind of rare trophy. When the church later was demolished, the kayak with its hunting equipment was transferred to the Aberdeen Medico-Chirurgical Society, where it still is exhibited. One of the leading Danish experts on Inuit (Eskimo) culture, Knud Rasmussen, in the late 1920’ies inspected the kayak, and identified the boat as a typical West Greenland kayak.
    If indeed mr. Rasmussen is correct in his expert opinion:
    Then the reverse journey seems more plausible.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  94. #93  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    4,566
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    as/re could europeans have made the voyage to america circa 22-35kybp.

    A man crossed from greenland to scotland in a kayak in 1728---unfortunately, he met the same fate as had the original marathon runner.



    The man was extremely exhausted and unfortunately died tree days later. His kayak with hunting equipment was placed hanging in the nearby church as a kind of rare trophy. When the church later was demolished, the kayak with its hunting equipment was transferred to the Aberdeen Medico-Chirurgical Society, where it still is exhibited. One of the leading Danish experts on Inuit (Eskimo) culture, Knud Rasmussen, in the late 1920’ies inspected the kayak, and identified the boat as a typical West Greenland kayak.
    If indeed mr. Rasmussen is correct in his expert opinion:
    Then the reverse journey seems more plausible.
    Ahh, so people crossed, then promptly dies of exhaustion. got it.

    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale. And as has been shown by the genetics, the Caucasian link is not present in North America.
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  95. #94  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Ahh, so people crossed, then promptly dies of exhaustion. got it.

    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale. And as has been shown by the genetics, the Caucasian link is not present in North America.

    Right, but that's in 1728. During the ice age, when the oceans were lower, the same guy might have made it to shore and not immediately died of exhaustion.

    Also, you understand, right? Since the trip described was from Greenland to Scotland, rather than the other way around, it lends some support to the possibility of Caucasian people starting in America as an offshoot of the Ainu people, then migrating to Europe. And then subsequently becoming extinct in America.

    The migration into America would still be from Asia. But then followed by another migration out of America and into Europe.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  96. #95  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Ahh, so people crossed, then promptly dies of exhaustion. got it.

    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale. And as has been shown by the genetics, the Caucasian link is not present in North America.

    Right, but that's in 1728. During the ice age, when the oceans were lower, the same guy might have made it to shore and not immediately died of exhaustion.

    Also, you understand, right? Since the trip described was from Greenland to Scotland, rather than the other way around, it lends some support to the possibility of Caucasian people starting in America as an offshoot of the Ainu people, then migrating to Europe. And then subsequently becoming extinct in America.

    The migration into America would still be from Asia. But then followed by another migration out of America and into Europe.

    Woulda, coulda, shoulda is all very well.

    The big issue is genetics. The very latest genetic research tells us that Europeans are probably not involved at all.

    Solutrean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2014, the autosomal DNA of a 12,500+-year-old infant from Montana was sequenced. The DNA was taken from a skeleton referred to as Anzick-1, found in close association with several Clovis artifacts. Comparisons showed strong affinities with DNA from Siberian sites, and virtually ruled out any close affinity with European sources (the so-called "Solutrean hypothesis"). The DNA also showed strong affinities with all existing Native American populations, which indicated that all of them derive from an ancient population that lived in or near Siberia, the Upper Palaeolithic Mal'ta population.
    Here's the abstract of that February this year paper. (Paywall so full text has to be found elsewhere for anyone interested.) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13025.html

    Basically, anything published before this year has to be re-evaluated in the light of this result.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  97. #96  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale.
    He didn't say it happened on a large scale.

    People of the High Arctic call themselves "circumpolar" and rightly claim to be quite different from indigenous people of any continent. For their lives revolve around sea ice, not land. The notion that journeys must begin by embarking from one land, and striving over water to "make it" to another land, is really southern thinking. Where we see ice and ocean as something to get over, they see numerous distinct destinations within it, each with unique resources and challenges. You can spend most of your life out there.

    That said, the population is so sparse, that truly circumpolar migration can be no more than a trickle in the magnitude of, like, one small family per decade, or less. Farther south, where crossings must be ambitious adventures, the coasts support far more people so their successful migration would overwhelm any genetic contribution made by circumpolar people.
    sculptor likes this.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  98. #97  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Ahh, so people crossed, then promptly dies of exhaustion. got it.

    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale. And as has been shown by the genetics, the Caucasian link is not present in North America.

    Right, but that's in 1728. During the ice age, when the oceans were lower, the same guy might have made it to shore and not immediately died of exhaustion.

    Also, you understand, right? Since the trip described was from Greenland to Scotland, rather than the other way around, it lends some support to the possibility of Caucasian people starting in America as an offshoot of the Ainu people, then migrating to Europe. And then subsequently becoming extinct in America.

    The migration into America would still be from Asia. But then followed by another migration out of America and into Europe.

    Woulda, coulda, shoulda is all very well.
    It is intended as a refutation to someone saying "that's impossible!". Proving something isn't impossible puts it back on the list of available hypothesis. It doesn't bring it to the front of the list, unfortunately.


    The big issue is genetics. The very latest genetic research tells us that Europeans are probably not involved at all.

    Solutrean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2014, the autosomal DNA of a 12,500+-year-old infant from Montana was sequenced. The DNA was taken from a skeleton referred to as Anzick-1, found in close association with several Clovis artifacts. Comparisons showed strong affinities with DNA from Siberian sites, and virtually ruled out any close affinity with European sources (the so-called "Solutrean hypothesis"). The DNA also showed strong affinities with all existing Native American populations, which indicated that all of them derive from an ancient population that lived in or near Siberia, the Upper Palaeolithic Mal'ta population.
    Here's the abstract of that February this year paper. (Paywall so full text has to be found elsewhere for anyone interested.)http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13025.html

    Basically, anything published before this year has to be re-evaluated in the light of this result.
    If Caucasians came to Europe from Ainu people in America, they certainly weren't the only group in America. There would be other groups from other migrations too.

    People keep looking for an overly simple narrative. They want the Americas to have been populated by one single migration of one single population group. That's a sensible thing to want, since the continent was mostly populated by just one group when the Spanish found it, but with 10,000+ years of history, there was plenty of time for groups to come and go. Or get eradicated by each other.

    In the old world, the Ainu lived in fair proximity to other much larger population groups, on islands nearby. Most notably Hokkaidu in what is now part of Japan. Yet they somehow maintained their own ethnic identity and unique identifying physical traits. Why wouldn't they have been able to do the same in the new world?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  99. #98  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post

    Ahh, so people crossed, then promptly dies of exhaustion. got it.

    One example of someone making it, but then dying form the labor, does not support your assertion that it happened on a large scale. And as has been shown by the genetics, the Caucasian link is not present in North America.

    Right, but that's in 1728. During the ice age, when the oceans were lower, the same guy might have made it to shore and not immediately died of exhaustion.

    Also, you understand, right? Since the trip described was from Greenland to Scotland, rather than the other way around, it lends some support to the possibility of Caucasian people starting in America as an offshoot of the Ainu people, then migrating to Europe. And then subsequently becoming extinct in America.

    The migration into America would still be from Asia. But then followed by another migration out of America and into Europe.

    Woulda, coulda, shoulda is all very well.

    The big issue is genetics. The very latest genetic research tells us that Europeans are probably not involved at all.

    Solutrean - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In 2014, the autosomal DNA of a 12,500+-year-old infant from Montana was sequenced. The DNA was taken from a skeleton referred to as Anzick-1, found in close association with several Clovis artifacts. Comparisons showed strong affinities with DNA from Siberian sites, and virtually ruled out any close affinity with European sources (the so-called "Solutrean hypothesis"). The DNA also showed strong affinities with all existing Native American populations, which indicated that all of them derive from an ancient population that lived in or near Siberia, the Upper Palaeolithic Mal'ta population.
    Here's the abstract of that February this year paper. (Paywall so full text has to be found elsewhere for anyone interested.) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13025.html

    Basically, anything published before this year has to be re-evaluated in the light of this result.
    adelady:
    Do you realize that the "close proximity" was in the pile where the earth moving machines dumped the earth.
    Nothing definitive can be derived from that---and claiming that the "proximity" debunks the solutrean hypothesis is sheer madness if not rampant stupidity.

    We have no way of knowing the timing of the deposition of the artifacts, nor the bones of the girl child.
    These events may have been separated by hundreds or thousands of years.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  100. #99  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    Without being able to read the paper itself, it's really not possible to weigh all that stuff up. I suppose I have no urge (or whatever) to think that the same kind of technology has to be physically transferred from Europe to the Americas so I have no drive to show them up as wrong.

    After all, the first printing press in Europe was devised and manufactured with no knowledge at all of equivalent technology having been invented by the Chinese hundreds of years earlier. Considering the number of times peoples around the world have come up with much the same solution to technical problems without ever knowing that others existed, it doesn't challenge the imagination in any way.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  101. #100  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    adelady:
    I had addressed the issues with the anzick child in the thread "ice age extinctions"
    Here's a copy of post #21 there.
    and a link: Ice age extinctions - Is this nonsense?
    ....................................
    And, I didn't mention the Anzick child, as I do not find the information from that burial conclusive.
    Mostly, it created more questions and opened doors into further studies of the blending of cultures and peoples.
    ......................
    3. Anzick, Montana: The Anzick site in Montana is reported to be a Clovis burial and cache. At
    Anzick, 12 radiocarbon dates were obtained from the cranial elements of a purported Clovis
    infant skeleton and 2 dates on associated bone foreshafts. Collagen extracted from the foreshafts
    yielded an average age of 11,040 + 35 14C yr B.P. (S7). The human skeletal remains were dated
    during three separate research programs. The first batch of seven dates on bone comprise five
    chemical fractions that were considered reliable and averaged to 10,680 + 50 14C yr B.P. (S2).
    Later, a single purified collagen sample yielded a date of 11,550 + 60 14C yr B.P. (CAMS-
    35912). This measurement is rejected because subsequent dating of the same XAD fraction and
    preceding fractions from newly sampled bone did not replicate the 11,550 14C yr B.P. result.
    The source of the contaminating 14C-depleted carbon is unknown. A more recent series of dates
    from a single cranial fragment provided four new radiocarbon ages. These fractions confirm
    previous date estimates for the skeleton of 10,705 + 35 14C yr B.P. The 14C dates on the skeleton
    versus the dates on the bone foreshafts suggest that the skeletal remains and Clovis artifacts may
    not be related and that the foreshaft ages more accurately date the site. The 10,700 year old
    human remains could post-date the Clovis cache, but additional research is needed to resolve this
    issue. A more recent, late Paleoindian or early Archaic human skeleton was also found at the
    site (S7). The association of any of the human remains with the Clovis cache is problematic
    because the site had been excavated accidentally with heavy machinery before the human bones
    and artifacts were recognized and later recovered at some distance from the actual site
    . Thus, the
    directly dated Clovis artifacts—the foreshafts—appear to accurately date the site.
    from:
    https://www.sciencemag.org/content/s...Waters_SOM.pdf
    Reply With Quote  
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. European alpine plant communities changing due to climate
    By Lynx_Fox in forum Environmental Issues
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 14th, 2012, 10:25 AM
  2. My iPhone can't sync the contacts to Mac
    By jamievenna in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: December 16th, 2011, 02:52 AM
  3. Invitation to European Conference
    By lisbon in forum Mathematics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: January 8th, 2010, 02:29 AM
  4. Cyprus in European Union
    By ArezList in forum Politics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 9th, 2009, 08:56 AM
  5. European Space Agency
    By (In)Sanity in forum Links
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: November 1st, 2004, 12:24 AM
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •